CS RPA "Fly Boy" Ace Vs Battle Magus

[Prince Artemis]

A battle fury blade, a deflector sheild (A tw sheild with deflect and targeted deflection) and a pair of shoes of fleetness. He can keep the standard battlemagus armor since he would still want to cast his magic.

[Lenwen]

A battle fury blade, a deflector sheild (A tw sheild with deflect and targeted deflection) and a pair of shoes of fleetness. He can keep the standard battlemagus armor since he would still want to cast his magic.

Isn't that roughly 12+ million

The Battle fury blade = 10-13 million all alone ...
No clue on the Shoe's ...
Or the Deflector Shield ...

[Lenwen]

Thee only book the Fleet Feet spell was even in was in Palladium's Rule Book .. its not even in the book of magic ..

So I think that he possibly made them with a Techno wizard home made or something of that nature ..

I could be wrong tho lol that would not be something new at all

[Lenwen]

Striker Samas buy a mile. Advantages of flight, can stay out of the battle magus range and reign down 12 mini missles in 4 missle volleys to really soften him up first, then fly by strafing with the CTT P40.

It's not all dice and nubers people!!!! Range and strategy play an important part.

12 plasma mini missles average damage =360MD... Battle magus has 380+ armor of ithan if he can see the samae coming a mile away

Aye very good scenario .. but you forgot I was givin 3 million credits to play with .. an its in an arena styled area 500ft circle ...

My weapons can inflict 4d6x10 each shot .. counts as 3 attacks .. but I can shoot two of them at the same time using up my entire melee rounds worth of attacks in two shots but doing no less then 160md and at most doing 480 Md .. thats not even counting a criticle shot of nat 20 which would effectivly give me a low shot of 320md Low end to 960md Max ...

NE-99 : 4d6x10 takes 3 actions , 7 shots , 4000 ft range .(150'000) X2 .

All I can say is ... Dont let me get the initiative ..

[Lenwen]

Initiative means everything in this fight right now ...

And as I said before ..
DONT LET ME GET INITIATIVE ....

[ApocalypseZero]

Battle Magus.......

With the right spells, casted on a Simoultaneous Attack at the same time all the missles come flying in, not a problem. Hell, Invicible Armor is all you need to stop all 48+ Missles. Within 200 ft, get a TW Jammer Pistol and target the SAMAS engine. Dead pilot, minor damage to SAMAS, more money.

Then again, all these VERSUS thread are really crap anyways. They never take into the account of all the aspects. This one seems to be heavily one sided to the SAMAS at first glance (I mean, I don't even have a Battle Magus spell listing). But, for me, when it comes down to Tech vs. Magic, I'll usually always take Magic as magic can do so much more, and doesn't need the initiative to hit you with it.

[Lenwen]

My weapons can inflict 4d6x10 each shot .. counts as 3 attacks .. but I can shoot two of them at the same time using up my entire melee rounds worth of attacks in two shots but doing no less then 160md and at most doing 480 Md .. thats not even counting a criticle shot of nat 20 which would effectivly give me a low shot of 320md Low end to 960md Max ...

NE-99 : 4d6x10 takes 3 actions , 7 shots , 4000 ft range .(150'000) X2 .

All I can say is ... Dont let me get the initiative ..

If you shoot both of them at the same time you'll be firing wild b/c sharpshooting bonuses don't apply to heavy weapons, says so under WP Sharpshooting in teh Game Masters guide.............it would be at least -2 for firing such a heavy one handed weapon and then -6 for trying to shoot both....total -8...........

Read number 1 under Sharpshooting ability ... They would normally lose them yes .. but in the case of the BM .. they do not ..
Also he can shoot rifles that would normally be shot with two hands with only 1 hand .
My only question now becomes ...
How does it not work then according to the BM's sharpshooting skill bullet # 1 ?

[Killer Cyborg]

Battle Mage:
Weapons:
-2 TW Snare Guns (CR 175,000 each: CR 350,000 total)
-TW Jammer Pistol (CR 75,000)
-2 TW Flaming Swords (CR 70,000 each: CR 140,000 total)
____________________________________________
Total = CR 1,055,000

Armor:
N-F50A Force Field Belt (MDC 160) (CR 170,000)
Bushman (60 MDC) (CR 32,000)* with the following TW enhancements:
-Invisibility: Superior (CR 1 Million)
-Armor of Ithan (10th level: 100 MDC) (CR 50,000)
-Chameleon (Cr 120,000)
-Impervious to Energy (CR 500,000)
__________________________________
Total = CR 1,872,000

Strategy:
(Depends on the rules, of course, but in general...)
-Hold Action.
-When the SAMAS fires his missiles, shoot one Snare Gun at the missiles and one at the SAMAS.
The missiles cannot dodge, and should be netted, detonating them. Do this when the SAMAS is in the blast area, and his own weapons do some of your work for you.
The SAMAS is likely to dodge, only a 40% chance of snaring him, but that's only IF he actually can. Since your attack is made on his attack, the GM might rule it's a Simo Attack, and can't be dodged.
-If the first snare misses the SAMAS, then activate the Impervious to Energy function of the armor. Since this requires no movement, it will look like you're waiting to do the same trick again. So the SAMAS is likely to try to switch to his particle beamer, since his missiles didn't work. But now his particle beam won't work either.
-After that, pick him off with the Snare Guns. If he can somehow still fly after being netted, then use the Jammer to take out his maneuvering jets.
-After he lands (drops like a stone), use the TW Flaming Swords to carve him up. Net him again if you have to, or use the Jammer to take out weapon systems or parts of the armor as needed.



*Or some better type of armor. I didn't feel like looking through the books.
And add

[Killer Cyborg]

...I know this isn't canon, but....

RIght.
Nuff said there.

And if you ready my previous post, TW Jammer pistol won't work like that...........read the spell description....

Read it, and you're wrong.
The spell will work on any machine up to the size of a basketball
The spell can be used "to prevent a gun (of any kind) from firing" and can cause jet packs "to sputter."

The description says that it's "ideal for" gears, pulleys, buttons, locks, etc, but those are nowhere near the only things it works on.

Read number 1 under Sharpshooting ability ... They would normally lose them yes .. but in the case of the BM .. they do not ..
Also he can shoot rifles that would normally be shot with two hands with only 1 hand .
My only question now becomes ...
How does it not work then according to the BM's sharpshooting skill bullet # 1 ?

WP Sharpshooting the BM gets only applies to melee weapons, handguns, bow and arrow, and magical energy blasts.............

Correct.
There's some vagueness in the definition of "handgun," though, and even taking the strictest sense of the word ("pistols"), there are some weapons that are poorly defined (plasma pistols) that might be Heavy Energy weapons that are also Handguns.
Taken more loosely, it just means any hand-portable gun that you don't need a bipod, tripod, or special mounting to use. Under this definition, rifles would be fully applicable.
And you have to ask yourself, IF rifles aren't eligible for the Sharpshooter skill for Battle Mages, then what's the point of even having the "may shoot rifles one-handed" option for them?

[Arnie100]

RPA Pilot has advantages of speed, flight, height, and range!

[rat_bastard]

at first level its the Special forces because of equipment.

however the special forces loses as the level builds up.

[Lenwen]

Read number 1 under Sharpshooting ability ... They would normally lose them yes .. but in the case of the BM .. they do not ..
Also he can shoot rifles that would normally be shot with two hands with only 1 hand .
My only question now becomes ...
How does it not work then according to the BM's sharpshooting skill bullet # 1 ?

WP Sharpshooting the BM gets only applies to melee weapons, handguns, bow and arrow, and magical energy blasts.............

Plus Regular WP Sharpshooting says the skill can't be taken for WP Heavy and WP Heavy Energy Weapons(pg 81 in Game Mastes guide).........so can't shoot both NE-99's.............

Sorry my friend should reread the section on Sharpshooting ...
W.P.Sharpshooting Specialties (2) : Bow and Arrow or Energy Rifle, and magic spells involving throwing or fireing/blasts ..

1. Can fire Traditional two handed weapons , like a rifle one handed without penalty (normally the shooter loses all strike bonases)

My little BM with those two Naruni E-Rifles ... is going to own you if I win the initiative ... 500 ft arena styled area ... my range is 4'000 ft muahahahaha

[Dustin Fireblade]

The NE-99 isn't a "Energy Rifle" - it's a "Heavy Energy Weapon"

You need a normal PS score of 28 just to use it without penalties. (lower if Robotic or Supernatural Strength)

[Killer Cyborg]

Read it, and you're wrong.
The spell will work on any machine up to the size of a basketball
The spell can be used "to prevent a gun (of any kind) from firing" and can cause jet packs "to sputter."


Correct.
There's some vagueness in the definition of "handgun," though, and even taking the strictest sense of the word ("pistols"), there are some weapons that are poorly defined (plasma pistols) that might be Heavy Energy weapons that are also Handguns.
Taken more loosely, it just means any hand-portable gun that you don't need a bipod, tripod, or special mounting to use. Under this definition, rifles would be fully applicable.
And you have to ask yourself, IF rifles aren't eligible for the Sharpshooter skill for Battle Mages, then what's the point of even having the "may shoot rifles one-handed" option for them?

Good point ...........but it would have to be a called shot taking two turns and good luck shooting the Samas in teh back when he facing you face foward........

Just walk around to the other side.
Somehow, I doubt he'll be zipping around very well once he's netted.

Rifles they speak off are energ rifles, not 100 lbs Heavy Rapid Fire Assult Laser rifles............even in the description it says "devatating hevy troop support weapon turre on a vehicle or fortification"...........you can get the idea that the weapon falls under WP Heavy.........lets not try and skelw everything to go the BM way and actually try and be realistic about this..........so no, he can't fire both with his sharpshooting skill b/c it's under WP HEavy..........

I wasn't talking about that weapon in specific, or even this scenario.
Just the idea of what Battle-Mages can fire one-handed (and paired).

[Killer Cyborg]

Just walk around to the other side.
Somehow, I doubt he'll be zipping around very well once he's netted.


I wasn't talking about that weapon in specific, or even this scenario.
Just the idea of what Battle-Mages can fire one-handed (and paired).

What book is this Net gun in?

Book of Magic.
And I believe that it originally appeared in FoM, along with most of the other munch TW toys.

Remember, whenever he tries to net the missles that takes his next turn b/c it's the same as a dodge or simultaneous attack.......so I don't know exactly when you plan on netting the Samas? as you still claiming your guy has hawk eyes and perfect reaction time to time his gun to catch six mini missles coming in, still have the skills to look past the missles and aim at the Samas with his other net gun??

Yup.
"In the alternative, the two-weapon attack can be divided between two different targets visible to the Battle Magus and within the range of his peripheral vision. The divided attack counts as one simultaneous melee action against two different foes."
Requires two different strike rolls, and the bonuses to strike are halved, but I don't think that will make a difference with the Snare Gun, because Magic Net is auto-targeted.

[Sir Blayse]

Ok, the only net gun I can find is the Slaver's Net gun (BoM pg.315) this is a large bulky weapon.

As for the TW Jammer, it only affects the key mechanism in firing. Could be used to disable one launcher per shot, jamming the mechanism the fires the missiles.

The Battle Magus would need to win the initiative- first off, if not then he is dead...
First action would be activating Impervious to Energy on TW-Body armor, this feature would cost 500,000 itself. This would protect him from all damage from Plasma missles and energy weapons- not sure if particle beam is considered energy weapon.
Sorry, hate to use non-canon material, but if BM had a TW-weapon with Implosion Neutralizer spell, FoM pg. 137, he could reduce the explosion, but would have to beat the blast with an initiative roll.

As for weapon, any decent weapon could be used at this time. Sadly a level one BM doesn't have many powerful spells to work with.

If he loses the first shot, then he dies...

[Sir Blayse]

One other point, when is a Striker SAMAS run of the mill... Would old style or Smiling Jack be more run of the mill?

[Prince Artemis]

My bad on the swords, I under estimated their cost. As for the shoes of fleetness, they're in PFRPG under alchemy items, cloth items to be more exact. Anyway, I changed my mind on that.

As to the sheild, yes it would be TW, It's actually called a mirror sheild and runs in the 220,000-440,000. Book of magic, page 320. Well, since the weapon of choice is nixed, I'd go with a Jammer pistol(115,000), Lightning mace and a wingboard turbo (200,000).
On top of that, the spell 'Invincible armor'.

I know I'm well under 3 million there, but that's fine. It's basically a battle of attrition. Use the sheild to parry till you get close enough with the wingboard, use the spell to handle the rest of the fire you miss parrying. When possible, parry the shots back at him. Fire the jammer at his weapons once you in range. When you get close enough to make a pass, lay into him with the axe to further screw up his systems. With a little luck and some good parry and strike rolls the magus should be able to take him, but it would take a while. Refresh the armor spell when needed but don't bother recharging the pistol once it's empty.

[Sir Blayse]

One problem with the Lightning Axe (even though you originally mentioned the mace, which would not do anything) is that it doesn't affect PA or body armor. It does affect robots though.

The shield helps, but the missiles would probably still be in blast radius, and the particle would be still hard to parry with it.

I'm guessing invincible armor would be a TW feature, since the BM is level one and doesn't have access to it yet.

The wing turbo is a good idea, since it would make him highly mobile and if trained right would give him good bonuses. Though he would probably have to use ranged weapons.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ok, the only net gun I can find is the Slaver's Net gun (BoM pg.315) this is a large bulky weapon.

You're looking for the TW Snare Gun.
It's on p. 326 of Bom.

As for the TW Jammer, it only affects the key mechanism in firing. Could be used to disable one launcher per shot, jamming the mechanism the fires the missiles.

Yes.

The Battle Magus would need to win the initiative- first off, if not then he is dead...

Nope. Not in my scenario.
The only requirement for shooting incoming missiles is that you have an attack left that turn, which would be true if he didn't win initiative.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I see some big problems with the use of a TW Snare Gun. Its very short range of 200 feet and only two shots. I've very likely going to shoot my missiles from a farther range than that, so if you do manage to net my missiles, it's not going to damage me in any way. Evil GM's might just damage the user of the TW Snare Gun instead.

The other thing is, and I see it as only fair, is to use the same chances to capture the missile's as there is to destroy them as presented in RUE pg 364. So you net one missile, 01-30 to net another, 31-60 half and 61-00 all the missiles netted.

But, given the speeds that missile's travel, and the penalties that will be involved, I see it as wasted attacks.


Cool idea though.

[Killer Cyborg]

I see some big problems with the use of a TW Snare Gun. Its very short range of 200 feet and only two shots. I've very likely going to shoot my missiles from a farther range than that, so if you do manage to net my missiles, it's not going to damage me in any way. Evil GM's might just damage the user of the TW Snare Gun instead.

The RPA pilot and teh battle magus spot each other at the exact same time in a huge battle....... they're 200 ft apart, both first level, nobody will interrrupt them. Who would win?

The other thing is, and I see it as only fair, is to use the same chances to capture the missile's as there is to destroy them as presented in RUE pg 364. So you net one missile, 01-30 to net another, 31-60 half and 61-00 all the missiles netted.

A magically guided net designed to snare multiple targets at once is going to have a better chance of hitting the missiles than guns firing tiny bullets or energy blasts designed for shooting at single targets.

RUE, p. 364
"The character can only shoot at one missile within a volley at a time. A volley of missiles would require 6 separate attacks, which is impossible at the speed that missiles travel."
Those are the rules for shooting down a missile with a normal weapons, but normal weapons are only designed to hit one target per attack.
Magic Nets hit multiple man-sized targets per attack, and would be large enough to catch the missiles.
The percentages for detonating the other missiles are based on having ONE of the missiles detonate, NOT on having all the missiles stuck together in a net (which would realistically have them crashing into each other).

But, given the speeds that missile's travel, and the penalties that will be involved, I see it as wasted attacks.

Wouldn't be any penalties.
None are mentioned in the section that describes shooting down missiles, and magic nets don't use strike rolls in any case.

Cool idea though.

Thank you.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Ah I didn't see the 200 foot thing up there. Sorry bout that.

Still I don't see why the Snare Gun is going to have a better chance to hit these missiles over any other attack. All attacks still have to roll a d20, and high roll still wins. If you don't beat the attacker's roll, then you've missed the entire volley.

Likewise I don't see the need to ignore the rules of detonating the missiles, or in this case capture them.

Also, why wouldn't the penalties for hitting a moving target apply? (pg361 RUE)

[Killer Cyborg]

Ah I didn't see the 200 foot thing up there. Sorry bout that.

Still I don't see why the Snare Gun is going to have a better chance to hit these missiles over any other attack. All attacks still have to roll a d20, and high roll still wins. If you don't beat the attacker's roll, then you've missed the entire volley.

???
Shooting down missiles isn't an opposed check.
They shoot the missiles at you.
You shoot at the missiles.
If you successfully detonate the missiles, then the missiles don't hit you.

Likewise I don't see the need to ignore the rules of detonating the missiles, or in this case capture them.

I'm not ignoring them; I'm looking what the rules are meant for, and using logic.
The rules you cited are for firing single shots at the lead missile, which is NOT what would happen in this scenario.
The more applicable rules would be the rules for firing missiles at other missiles, because both missiles and magic nets are area effect weapons (more or less).
Which means at least a 75% chance of detonating all the missiles.
Really, I'd go with the 100% chance, the same odds as if you fire as many missiles at the incoming volley as there are missiles IN the incoming volley.
Because that magic net is going to catch ALL the incoming missiles, unless they're spread out in a pattern more than 10' across, which doesn't seem likely since they're all fired from the same launcher and all going toward the same target.

Also, why wouldn't the penalties for hitting a moving target apply? (pg361 RUE)

Because Magic Nets don't roll to strike; the target of the magic net has to roll to dodge.
Strike penalties don't matter.

[Dustin Fireblade]

???
Shooting down missiles isn't an opposed check.
They shoot the missiles at you.
You shoot at the missiles.
If you successfully detonate the missiles, then the missiles don't hit you.

Ok, how do you determine if you hit the missiles then? Ignore the Magic Net for this. I've always played it as I mentioned above.

[Killer Cyborg]

???
Shooting down missiles isn't an opposed check.
They shoot the missiles at you.
You shoot at the missiles.
If you successfully detonate the missiles, then the missiles don't hit you.

Ok, how do you determine if you hit the missiles then? Ignore the Magic Net for this. I've always played it as I mentioned above.

You roll to strike, taking into account any penalties due to the size and speed of the target.

If you look at Rifts, p. 43, there is an example of a SAMAS trying to shoot down the incoming missiles fired by an Enforcer:

"Four missiles cannot be dodged, so the SAMAS tries to blast the volley before they hit (a smart move, but uses up his next melee attack). 1D20 is rolled to strike the missiles. A 14 is a strike and 20 M.D. is inflicted detonating one of the missiles. Percentile dice are rolled to see if all the missiles are detonated. The chance of success is 1-45%, unfortunately a 72 is rolled and three of the missiles strike. Damage is 3d4x10 (three fragmentation missiles) inflicting a total of 90 mega-damage point on the SAMAS (that hurts)."

Originally, I don't believe that there were any penalties for shooting at missiles: a 5+ hit, just like any other attack. In RUE, it seems logical to use the penalties listed for shooting at fast-moving targets.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Right, but I don't see where it means that it's a standard strike roll? If you attempt to dodge a missile, then it's opposed rolls; if you use your arms, then it's a parry roll. Likewise the Roll w/Impact is opposed as well. I guess I just took for granted that attempting to hit a volley would be a opposed roll as well since everything else was.


At any rate, back to the Snare Gun. Shooting a volley of 1400 MPH Armor Piercing Mini-Missile from 200 feet away. You shoot your Snare Gun in a attempt to block the missiles. I guess the question is why wouldn't there be a strike roll when attempting to shoot a gun, despite it causing a spell effect? With the follow up question then, how does this spell materialize from the gun?

[Killer Cyborg]

Right, but I don't see where it means that it's a standard strike roll? If you attempt to dodge a missile, then it's opposed rolls; if you use your arms, then it's a parry roll. Likewise the Roll w/Impact is opposed as well. I guess I just took for granted that attempting to hit a volley would be a opposed roll as well since everything else was.

If you're shooting at a target that isn't dodging or parrying, it's not an opposed roll.
Missiles don't dodge (usually).
Missiles don't parry.

Therefore...

At any rate, back to the Snare Gun. Shooting a volley of 1400 MPH Armor Piercing Mini-Missile from 200 feet away. You shoot your Snare Gun in a attempt to block the missiles. I guess the question is why wouldn't there be a strike roll when attempting to shoot a gun, despite it causing a spell effect?

Because the spell that it's casting doesn't require a strike roll.

With the follow up question then, how does this spell materialize from the gun?

Unknown.

[Killer Cyborg]

Wouldn't be any penalties.
None are mentioned in the section that describes shooting down missiles, and magic nets don't use strike rolls in any case.

So by your logic the BM magus could just point at the ground and he would still snare up the missles since there's no roll to strike...............

I'd say he'd have to point it in the general direction.

And if you want to get technical, teh RUE states nothing about missles being able to be snared up, only shot down.............and teh spell description mentions nothing of the net being able to catch missles either.........so technically speaking it can't be done by the book.

Sure it can.
Magic Net doesn't need to be cast at living targets, and it doesn't need to be cast at human-sized targets, and there's no limits on the speed of the targets, so there's no reason why it wouldn't work.

You don't want this to work, because it's cheesy and over-powered.
But it's the rules, so get over it.

[Killer Cyborg]

^^so since teh wand(I refuse to call it a gun now) is casting teh spell.............it will abide by teh same rules of spell casting, which says you can't cast magic under direct fire........

The direct fire being the missles coming at you.

Nope.
It's a TW device, and you can use those all you like while you're under direct fire.
You can't cast spells because that takes concentration, but using a TW device doesn't.

You're really reaching here.

[Lenwen]

^^so since teh wand(I refuse to call it a gun now) is casting teh spell.............it will abide by teh same rules of spell casting, which says you can't cast magic under direct fire........

The direct fire being the missles coming at you.

Nope.
It's a TW device, and you can use those all you like while you're under direct fire.
You can't cast spells because that takes concentration, but using a TW device doesn't.

You're really reaching here.

yeah I know.........like a kid for the cookie jar.......lol....

BUT

Nobody has brought his up, but when the Mage cast this spell he is physically using his hand/words and mind to focus his PPE to create this spell...........his mind is what's determinig where to fire/aim the net(thus not requiring a strike roll). When you put the net spell in the gun........what is determining what you're trying to snare up??

What if you have two people in front of you, one foe and one enemy about 5 ft apartfrom each other

Forgive me my friend but if I had a Foe and an Enemy that close in proximity to each other I'd snare / net them both an have a coke an a smile cause it would be a good day

[Killer Cyborg]

Nobody has brought his up, but when the Mage cast this spell he is physically using his hand/words and mind to focus his PPE to create this spell...........his mind is what's determinig where to fire/aim the net(thus not requiring a strike roll). When you put the net spell in the gun........what is determining what you're trying to snare up??

Nobody has brought it up because it's a non-issue.
I address this in the other thread, but to sum up:
The spell know who/what you want to target.
How?
Doesn't matter. Same way the spell normally does, and the same way that a Talisman does, etc.
The rules never get into how you aim a magic net; it just hits what you want to hit.

[Dog_O_War]

^^so since teh wand(I refuse to call it a gun now) is casting teh spell.............it will abide by teh same rules of spell casting, which says you can't cast magic under direct fire........

The direct fire being the missles coming at you.

Nope.
It's a TW device, and you can use those all you like while you're under direct fire.
You can't cast spells because that takes concentration, but using a TW device doesn't.

You're really reaching here.

Where does it state the size of the net? Because it's magic, would the net not size itself to the object in question? That and where does it say that a volley of mini-missiles must travel in an extremely tight formation (re: within 2ft of each other, which is the maximum I could fathom these missiles travelling together without running into or grounding themselves thanks to the air-wake they leave) before impacting a target? Beyond all that (and because I haven't read the actual spell), does it say that the captured object actually stops or slows down? (and given how a missile flies I don't see it being affected by a weightless magical net either as far as trajectory is concerned).

[Killer Cyborg]

^^so since teh wand(I refuse to call it a gun now) is casting teh spell.............it will abide by teh same rules of spell casting, which says you can't cast magic under direct fire........

The direct fire being the missles coming at you.

Nope.
It's a TW device, and you can use those all you like while you're under direct fire.
You can't cast spells because that takes concentration, but using a TW device doesn't.

You're really reaching here.

Where does it state the size of the net? Because it's magic, would the net not size itself to the object in question?

The spell hits multiple targets in a 10' area.
This is in the RUE spell description.

That and where does it say that a volley of mini-missiles must travel in an extremely tight formation (re: within 2ft of each other, which is the maximum I could fathom these missiles travelling together without running into or grounding themselves thanks to the air-wake they leave) before impacting a target? Beyond all that (and because I haven't read the actual spell), does it say that the captured object actually stops or slows down? (and given how a missile flies I don't see it being affected by a weightless magical net either as far as trajectory is concerned).

1. The missiles would have to be close to each other in order to hit the same target, since they all come from the same source. There would likely be a bit of spread, but nowhere near 10'.
2. The net wouldn't have to slow or stop the missiles directly. One of two things would happen:
-The missiles would detonate when they hit the net, as it is a solid object.
-The missiles would detonate when they collided with each other due to being all snared in the same net.

[Dog_O_War]

^^so since teh wand(I refuse to call it a gun now) is casting teh spell.............it will abide by teh same rules of spell casting, which says you can't cast magic under direct fire........

The direct fire being the missles coming at you.

Nope.
It's a TW device, and you can use those all you like while you're under direct fire.
You can't cast spells because that takes concentration, but using a TW device doesn't.

You're really reaching here.

Where does it state the size of the net? Because it's magic, would the net not size itself to the object in question?

The spell hits multiple targets in a 10' area.
This is in the RUE spell description.

That and where does it say that a volley of mini-missiles must travel in an extremely tight formation (re: within 2ft of each other, which is the maximum I could fathom these missiles travelling together without running into or grounding themselves thanks to the air-wake they leave) before impacting a target? Beyond all that (and because I haven't read the actual spell), does it say that the captured object actually stops or slows down? (and given how a missile flies I don't see it being affected by a weightless magical net either as far as trajectory is concerned).

1. The missiles would have to be close to each other in order to hit the same target, since they all come from the same source. There would likely be a bit of spread, but nowhere near 10'.
2. The net wouldn't have to slow or stop the missiles directly. One of two things would happen:
-The missiles would detonate when they collided with each other due to being all snared in the same net.

Acceptable.

-The missiles would detonate when they hit the net, as it is a solid object.

Unacceptable. If this were the case, SDC lead rounds would explode missiles, as they too are solid objects. But the book states that they need to take atleast 1-2 MD (for the specific type of mini-missile) to explode, so impacting a net would neither slow nor explode them; infact, unless the net spell descriptor states that it ties itself off, I'm not even sure they would break formation.

[Lenwen]

the book states that they need to take atleast 1-2 MD (for the specific type of mini-missile) to explode, so impacting a net would neither slow nor explode them; infact, unless the net spell descriptor states that it ties itself off, I'm not even sure they would break formation.

This makes me curious as to how you think the missles would be effected at all then ...
by the magic net ...

[ApocalypseZero]

First: I believe that any attack made with a TW Weapon will require a Roll to Hit as normal. Call Lightning from a Storm Rifle still requires are Roll to Hit as if the weapon is a Rifle, just uses the Damage/Effects of Call Lightning (and the lightning, or other spell effects for other weapons, are emitted from the weapon or barrel themselves, not the sky or in mid air). So, to shoot at the missiles would require a Roll to Hit the missiles. Great thing is, the missles get no dodge and WOULD be ensnared by the Magic Net as it would encompass the area of the missiles flight path, which actually would detonate the missiles as they now impact on the net (just as if a wall had been placed there) because the Net requires damage to be done to it to escape it before time elapsed.

Second: Where is this 'can't cast under direct fire' coming from? That's like saying 'can't shoot while under direct fire'. What constitutes 'direct fire'? Firing at me? In my general direction? Is it considered direct fire if I'm behind cover? Somehow I'm seeing people trying to shift the balance of things to favor the SAMAS here. Also, using a Simoultaneous Attack as the first action would not be considered under 'Direct Fire' because there has been no attack yet. As Simo Attacks work, I am attacking you when you attack me, therefore there is no direct fire. Any spell that takes a single attack (Levels 1-5) are fair and open for casting.

Third: No one wins. There are still too many variables in play to have anything be decided. Case in point, look at all the 'I don't use that rule', 'I read the rule as this', and 'That's not how I think it is meant' comments abound. If you want to solve the scenario, do so in game or find someone here willing to GM out the conflict. Just make sure you get one that allows for creative thinking on both sides of the battle. And do remember, Technology is bound by Physics, Magic is bound by imagination.

Lastly: A Mind Melter would solve this by creating a TK Force Field in front of the SAMAS while it's traveling at high speeds. "Hey look! The pilot turned to goo from the impact."

[Dog_O_War]

the book states that they need to take atleast 1-2 MD (for the specific type of mini-missile) to explode, so impacting a net would neither slow nor explode them; infact, unless the net spell descriptor states that it ties itself off, I'm not even sure they would break formation.

This makes me curious as to how you think the missles would be effected at all then ...
by the magic net ...

I admit that my knowledge on the magic portion of Rifts is remedial (at best), but I am intimately familiar with the sloppy rules Rifts presents. I mean, the net probably does not have any weight (given that it is magic - or just enough to "wrap" a target properly) so it should offer no resistence or drag (beyond the minor air-drag a physical object exerts). As far as I know, nets entangle because they get snared on parts, causing restricted movement for targets that require limbs and such. A fish though (closest shape to a missile) often drags the net to its maximum range thanks to a hard to snare shape; the same shape a missile perports but with far less movement involved(not that any of this would matter in game terms ofcourse).

[ApocalypseZero]

Lastly: A Mind Melter would solve this by creating a TK Force Field in front of the SAMAS while it's traveling at high speeds. "Hey look! The pilot turned to goo from the impact."

Mind Melter can take out the BM in one attack also with Bio-Manipulation........so what's your point? you completely took off on another tangent on this one.......

Either way you're right about the "under fire" thing...........I was assuming the TW weapon took time to cast/shoot the net, but it doesn't....

This is all for fun, to see where angle people take to get things done accomplished/killed ect............


But one thing I'd definitely have to throw out the window is the claim that the BM in his simultneous attack can aim at the volley of missles coming in and still have teh concentration to aim with his other hand by seeing through the volley of missles to try and snare up the Samas.........yeah, that really runs through your mind in .2 seconds ........"hey look at those missles coming in at me, I shoudl try and catch them, ohh wait, let me catch them and with my other TW snare gun try and catch the Samas, I mean common, they're just missles coming in at 1400 MPH I can afford to split my concentration"....lol......I mean, I would allow to BM to try and fire both guns at the missles and roll twice to see if he snares up the missles, but definitely not split them up like that.

NOt only that, I believe Simultaneous attack was written with teh concept to be used in hth combat, given the example they use in teh RUE. It makes no sense to have it apply to Ranged combat b/c in essense what's the point of initiative?

The Mind Melter thing was meant to be a joke. Forgot my

As for Simo Attacks, in ranged combat it would be more reflective to call it 'Taking the Hit'. Sure, you are hit and take damage, but you get the drop on the opponent too.

The Shooting Missiles & SAMAS with Paired Weapons is part of the Paired Weapons/Firearms debate that many sort of bring up all the time. How can anyone shoot at 2 different targets and still be effective? Well, Paired Weapons/Firearms achieves this in game. It's more of a 'Hollywood effect' rule than anything. It looks cool and people are going to want to do it.

While many think that Tech will always beat Magic, with the recent upgrade of spell casting in R:UE (thank you for that Kevin, Mages are now really effective) Magic can be on par if not a cut above the Tech depending on what needs to be done. In fact, Carmen Bellaire noted to me a 3 Spell Combo (taking 4 actions) which can make a Mage invincible to most Tech attacks and at least physically unharmed by all but a Syncho or Reflex (Macross) Cannon. But that secret is mine, all mine (and Carmen's).

[Killer Cyborg]

-The missiles would detonate when they hit the net, as it is a solid object.

Unacceptable. If this were the case, SDC lead rounds would explode missiles, as they too are solid objects. But the book states that they need to take atleast 1-2 MD (for the specific type of mini-missile) to explode, so impacting a net would neither slow nor explode them; infact, unless the net spell descriptor states that it ties itself off, I'm not even sure they would break formation.

Uh.. I think you missed the point.

The missiles explode on impact.
The missiles explode on impact with SDC objects.
The missiles explode on impact with SDC objects, even if the missiles don't sustain 1-2 MD worth of damage in the process.
Whatever mechanism they have that caused them to detonate on impact (perhaps something as simplistic as a pressure-sensitive nose) isn't going to detonate from a bullet unless maybe the bullet hits the nose of the missile dead-on, in just the right way.
But a NET is more likely to trigger whatever mechanism the missile has for detecting impact.

[Killer Cyborg]

But one thing I'd definitely have to throw out the window is the claim that the BM in his simultneous attack can aim at the volley of missles coming in and still have teh concentration to aim with his other hand by seeing through the volley of missles to try and snare up the Samas......

Hey, house-rule however you like.
I'm just telling you how the official rules work.

...yeah, that really runs through your mind in .2 seconds ....

Yeah, it really does.
Especially if you're a munched-up super-warrior who's faster and better trained than normal humans (and in a few levels, faster than Juicers in some ways).

And even more especially since attacks take longer than .2 seconds.

...."hey look at those missles coming in at me, I shoudl try and catch them, ohh wait, let me catch them and with my other TW snare gun try and catch the Samas, I mean common, they're just missles coming in at 1400 MPH I can afford to split my concentration"....lol......I mean, I would allow to BM to try and fire both guns at the missles and roll twice to see if he snares up the missles, but definitely not split them up like that.

Good for you and your house rules.

NOt only that, I believe Simultaneous attack was written with teh concept to be used in hth combat, given the example they use in teh RUE. It makes no sense to have it apply to Ranged combat b/c in essense what's the point of initiative?

The point of initiative is to determine who moves/attacks first.
Does simo-attack make it less important?
That depends on what people are doing.
In a situation where everybody is just standing still, shooting at each other, then Simo-attacks make init unimportant... but it's pretty unimportant anyway, since all anybody is doing is shooting.
The only time it would matter is when somebody gets killed, because they'd get that last simo-attack in before they died.

In any case, I asked Kevin whether or not simo attacks apply to ranged combat.
His response: "Yeah. Why wouldn't they?"

[Killer Cyborg]

This is the thing, if the BM is going to use a simultaneous attack that means he's going to do an action the exact same time the Sam is...........so how in the world does the BM know the missles are going to be fired?? He doesn't.

He sees the SAMAS pointing missile-launchers at him, then he sees missile hurtling towards him.
That's kind of a clue.

You get what I'm saying................he's taking the rules and twisting them. The book states you can shoot missles down yes, but it counts as a normal melee action, as in it takes your next action away........I have no problem with him using the snare guns on a simultaneous attack but the BM won't be able to snare up the missles.

What you're ignoring is the fact that the BM has two hands, and two guns, that can simultaneously target different enemies/objects.
The mage can shoot at the missiles: it's in the rules.
The mage can shoot both guns at the missiles, because that's in the paired firearms skill description.
He can fire both guns at separate targets, because that's also in the paired firearms skill description.

What you're proposing is that a BM suddenly loses his ability to fire at two different targets if one of the targets is an incoming missile.
Which doesn't make any sense, and doesn't fit with the rules.

[Lenwen]

NOt only that, I believe Simultaneous attack was written with teh concept to be used in hth combat, given the example they use in teh RUE. It makes no sense to have it apply to Ranged combat b/c in essense what's the point of initiative?

In any case, I asked Kevin whether or not simo attacks apply to ranged combat.
His response: "Yeah. Why wouldn't they?"

So ends the debat on simo ranged attack lmao ..

[Lenwen]

I dare someone to lie to me here and say they can see, with perfect clarity, a soda can painted black 200 ft away that's in front of a black background using no form of optical enhancement. Oh yeah, and both can and background are moving together at over 40 mph (sure a Striker can go a lot faster, but 40 is more than enough).

I wont lie to you good sir Alejandro . But I will add a little bit of light on the subject .. each mini missle is launched with thier rockets blazing .. an having said that the effects of each mini missle an its propelsion will be more then enough for the BM who is already pointing his weapons AT the samas to begin with to be able to shoot the net twords the samas an the mini rockets that are enrout already an thus hit the net an detonat ...

I dare some one to lie to me an tell me that mini missles dont have a propelsion system on them

[Killer Cyborg]

This is the thing, if the BM is going to use a simultaneous attack that means he's going to do an action the exact same time the Sam is...........so how in the world does the BM know the missles are going to be fired?? He doesn't.

He sees the SAMAS pointing missile-launchers at him, then he sees missile hurtling towards him.
That's kind of a clue.

I really have to disagree with this concept right here. The whole front of a Striker SAMAS is a missile launcher because it's built into the wings and shoulders. The only thing the SAMAS pilot can point at the BM is the Particle Beam rifle and his fingers.

And the mini-missile launchers in his forearms.

Simo-attacking the missiles in regards to this scenario is not possible. From 200 ft and no optic enhancements, the BM would have no idea whether the missiles were ready to go or not.

Realistically, I can see your point there.
But the game rules don't agree.

[Lenwen]

Realistically, I can see your point there.
But the game rules don't agree.

Mainly because the rules regarding this were written by people who watched waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much Macross/Robotech. However, you can see how it's frustrating that we keep seeing "CS Spec Ops in Striker SAMAS versus <insert whatever OCC here>" and then watch people talk about "Oh, I'll just use a ton of missiles and wipe you out first round" without bothering to pay attention that a single successful strike against one missile in a volley has such a ridiculously high chance of detonating the whole group.

Seriously people, get rid of the Striker SAMAS hard-on you've got going.

I wont lie to you good sir Alejandro . But I will add a little bit of light on the subject .. each mini missle is launched with thier rockets blazing .. an having said that the effects of each mini missle an its propelsion will be more then enough for the BM who is already pointing his weapons AT the samas to begin with to be able to shoot the net twords the samas an the mini rockets that are enrout already an thus hit the net an detonat ...

I dare some one to lie to me an tell me that mini missles dont have a propelsion system on them

Here's my rebuttal to that: just how big of a flash do you think these missiles are making? Are you thinking anime missiles that leave so much smoke behind them it's like an airshow demonstration while at the same time they launch so brightly that it looks like a flashbang is going off?

I ask this because if you're going the anime route and not the more realistic route (realism and Rifts, I know...) then I could maybe see this concept of seeing the muzzle flash. However, given the time that it takes a missile to reach you at close range after launch is nil, then the basis of dodging these attacks comes from the same defense people use to justify dodging laser weapons: "you're not dodging the laser, you're avoiding the area the guy is pointing the gun at!". If you go with that concept then unless the pilot uses the arm launchers you have no idea where or when the guy is going to shoot said missiles.

That being said, there is still no way that the BM can win if the SAMAS pilot just thinks for 2 seconds given all the equipment that BM defenders are giving them. Toss a smoke missile or two, switch to thermal vision (standard in the HUD of a SAMAS as per the books, then just volley like hell at the ground by the BM. Semi-instant win. Even if the BM brings some kind of vision gear with him, unless he's using it from the start he'd still die as it'd take an action to turn it on after the smoke's gone off...an action that the SAMAS pilot would be using to rain missiles down on his target.

Negative my friend . As being one person who actually handeld real life ordinence as well as fireing it off I know for a fact what a mini missle SHOULD look like upon being fired . It is GOING to leave a relativly small train of thin smoke like behind it , and as its launching it will without question have a large enough flash as to be able to see it if your in a 500ft range of the mini missle being fired .. flat out hate to ruin anyones thought process but that is truth as I've seen it personally up close at 1200 ft I shot something that I would personally consider a mini missle an that is the bases of which I judge this subject off of .

[Killer Cyborg]

What you're proposing is that a BM suddenly loses his ability to fire at two different targets if one of the targets is an incoming missile.
Which doesn't make any sense, and doesn't fit with the rules.

This is what does't make sense, the GM tells teh PC with the sam write down what you're going to do...........OK
The PC with the BM says "I want to do a simultaneous attack"............OK

He tells both to write down what thy're going to do............

No.
GM asks the SAMAS PC what he wants to do.
The SAMAS says, "I fire my missiles."
The GM turns to the BM PC and says, "He's shooting missiles at you" or simply, "He's attacking."
Followed by: "Do you want to dodge, or take the hit?"
Then the BM PC decides whether he wants to dodge or take the hit.
One of the ways of taking the hit is to simo attack.
And if you have enough time to dodge, you have enough time to NOT dodge and instead to return fire.

So tell me KC, how does the BM know the Sam is going to fire his mini missles? ..............did he bring his crystal ball with him?

He either saw the missile launchers being aimed at him, or he saw the missile ports open up, or he saw the missiles being launched, or all of the above.
This might not seem plausible to you, but I have good news: It doesn't have to, and I don't really care if it does or not.
The simple fact is that the rules clearly allow for dodges and simo attacks, whether or not you think it would be possible.
If this bugs you, write a letter to the company; I don't make the rules.

OK, so you say he sees the Sam aiming the mini missles at him right............then if he does that it's not a true Simulatneous attack b/c he has waited...... it's an attack on the missles acting as a dodge/next turn for the BM........

Do you get what I'm saying?

Yeah. You're reading way too much into "simultaneous."
All it means is that it happens at roughly the same time, not that each weapon is fired at the exact same split-second.

And on another note, if the missles fly in such a straight line like you assumed............how are you going to aim your second attack at teh sam when the missles stand directly in b/w you and the sam..............which would then cause both nets fired to hit the missles.....

Different angles of fire from one hand to the next, and you can aim at a lower part of the SAMAS' torso.

However, you can see how it's frustrating that we keep seeing "CS Spec Ops in Striker SAMAS versus <insert whatever OCC here>" and then watch people talk about "Oh, I'll just use a ton of missiles and wipe you out first round" without bothering to pay attention that a single successful strike against one missile in a volley has such a ridiculously high chance of detonating the whole group.

Seriously people, get rid of the Striker SAMAS hard-on you've got going.

Seriously, these threads may be cheesy...........but it has brought forth some of the best ideas I've ever seen b/c so many minds are working towards the same goal.........of either killing PC X or PC Y.

And it makes work go by faster!!!

The problem is that these "Vs threads" always end up the same way: with people arguing about whose interpretation of the rules is correct.
Because it's the rules that determine the winner.

[Lenwen]

The problem is that these "Vs threads" always end up the same way: with people arguing about whose interpretation of the rules is correct.
Because it's the rules that determine the winner.

Or the inevitable way they try to manipulate the rules to match that which they want it to an have it mean something it was not ment to mean ...

Course on that topic we are all a bit guilty

[Killer Cyborg]

If this bugs you, write a letter to the company; I don't make the rules.

Different angles of fire from one hand to the next, and you can aim at a lower part of the SAMAS' torso.

The problem is that these "Vs threads" always end up the same way: with people arguing about whose interpretation of the rules is correct.
Because it's the rules that determine the winner.

It's OK, we play the more realistic way in our group........where common sense rules.

Such a shot would be a called shot taking two turns, thus not possible during a simultaneous attack.......at least in my games. But I'm sure you can find a loophole for this one too.

The thing is, IIRC my group used to play that shooting missiles was a Called Shot, back before RUE.
Under RUE, there could be an argument made that it should still be a called shot, since called shots are specified for small targets.
BUT the rules for shooting missiles don't say anything about that, and would be pretty much rendered moot if two attacks were required.
In short, it's a sensible house rule, but not an official one.

It's not really arguing, more an exchange of view with some spice......lol........I don't take anything personal over these subjects as nobody should......I just always love trying to sway people minds........sometimes even when I think I may be wrong.....lol....

Fair enough.
Frankly, I'm not 100% behind my argument that the net guns target the same as the spells; I'm just going off of the what the text says, but I'm not sure that's what it means.
We find good evidence against that theory, that's cool; I've personally always just had them require a strike roll, not knowing whether or not it's a house rule, since the official rules are pretty vague.

KC, if you're not a lawyer by now............you should definitely try that profession.......it's made for you.....lol.....

I have thought about it, but it would take a lot of schooling and memorization, so I never really wanted to get into it.
Also, the world has plenty of lawyers already.

[cornholioprime]

I don't think that the "Shoot Net at Missiles" tactic will work.

The Net doesn't seem to register much in terms of mass, and as described in the scenario they aren't even anchored to anything else but to the missiles that strike the net.

As such, I see NO greater probability that the Missiles will explode upon contact with the Net than I would expect if the Missiles in question flew into, say, a yardful of hanging laundry; both are effectively insubstantial, and while the Missile would logically be expected to punch through the laundry, I expect the Net to do its job, adhere to the missile (since that was its apparent target), and 'allow' the missile to keep going, albeit covered in Net 'goo.'

GM's call if the 'goo' is of sufficient quantity to gum up the ailerons and/or or the exhaust (although I believe that the latter would be highly unlikely; my mind's eye sees a still-approaching missile with a bunch of Net trailing behind like some sort of superhero's cape).