CS RPA "Fly Boy" Ace Vs Battle Magus

[Killer Cyborg]

Seriously.............is all we're going to do it question game rules?? I rather talk about battle plans and tactics .......

The problem with that is that the battle plans and strategies depend on the specifics of the rules.

If Magic Nets can't stop missiles, then I wouldn't pick that tactic, or those weapons.
If you're playing with the original burst/spray rules, then a JA-11 would be a great weapon for the Battle Mage to pick, but under the new rules it would be pretty lousy.
If lasers are invisible under your rules, that scraps a lot of strategies (sniping, primarily) that would depend on lasers being invisible.

The rules of the game are the physics of the gameworld, and it just doesn't make sense to say, "Let's just ignore physics and talk strategy!"
Because strategy depends entirely on physics.

[Dog_O_War]

Okay, it says that missiles may be shot down. They are destroyed if they take damage, but the net neither deals damage nor causes a direction change; it simply covers the target and "entangles" them by the strictest of definitions.

Only it WILL cause a direction change. The missiles will be pulling against each other, since they have different trajectories, and the outer fins of the missiles (the outer ones, at least) will be snagged in the net which will give them more resistance than the other side of the missile, which will cause the missile to turn.

You're a man of the RAW; where in all the books does it say that this will happen?

Even clustered, there is no ruling that says the missiles change direction nor slow down or recieve a penalty to hit, and since the net is an attack akin to a bullet it will not act as an object which the missiles "slam" into and explode on, similar to a wall (if that were the case, SDC rounds would be used to stop missiles).

As I said before, that depends on the nature of the missiles' detonators.

Again, where does it state that missiles explode apon non-damaging projectiles? Even that aside, logically this net will not apply pressure directly to the nose of the cone (where the pressure detonator would most likely be), as nets are designed to get hooked and entangle, not cover.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, it says that missiles may be shot down. They are destroyed if they take damage, but the net neither deals damage nor causes a direction change; it simply covers the target and "entangles" them by the strictest of definitions.

Only it WILL cause a direction change. The missiles will be pulling against each other, since they have different trajectories, and the outer fins of the missiles (the outer ones, at least) will be snagged in the net which will give them more resistance than the other side of the missile, which will cause the missile to turn.

You're a man of the RAW;

No idea what that means.

where in all the books does it say that this will happen?

It doesn't, but it doesn't need to.
That's just how the laws of physics work, and the laws of physics are presumed to be the same in the game world as they are in the real world unless otherwise specified.

Even clustered, there is no ruling that says the missiles change direction nor slow down or recieve a penalty to hit, and since the net is an attack akin to a bullet it will not act as an object which the missiles "slam" into and explode on, similar to a wall (if that were the case, SDC rounds would be used to stop missiles).

As I said before, that depends on the nature of the missiles' detonators.

Again, where does it state that missiles explode apon non-damaging projectiles?

Again, it doesn't need to.

Even that aside, logically this net will not apply pressure directly to the nose of the cone (where the pressure detonator would most likely be), as nets are designed to get hooked and entangle, not cover.

The second part of that sentence doesn't actually support the first part.

[Killer Cyborg]

We'll let the poll speak for itself, since people just seem to assume everything to benefit their PC of choice while calling everything and their grandmas into question to the opposing PC.

You've got it backwards.
I choose the Battle Mage as the winner because of my understanding of the rules, not the other way around.
Personally, I hate Battle Mages, and wish the class could be expunged. I'd rather the SAMAS win, but the Battle Mage with a big budget has the clear advantage.

[Killer Cyborg]

It doesn't, but it doesn't need to.
That's just how the laws of physics work, and the laws of physics are presumed to be the same in the game world as they are in the real world unless otherwise specified.

Back in page two you said how improbable is was for a BM with no optical enhancements to see if the Sam was going to use his missles but didn't matter b/c the rules allowed it anyways.............so you can't say you follow physics 100% of the time.

Which is why I never said that.
What I said was that the laws of physics are presumed to be the same in the game world as they are in the real world unless otherwise specified.

Which means that if the rules contradict the laws of physics, then the rules win.
If there aren't any rules to conflict with the laws of physics, then you go with physics.

(There was more to your post, but it was irrelevant since you were somehow missing the point of what I've been saying)

[Dog_O_War]

Okay, it says that missiles may be shot down. They are destroyed if they take damage, but the net neither deals damage nor causes a direction change; it simply covers the target and "entangles" them by the strictest of definitions.

Only it WILL cause a direction change. The missiles will be pulling against each other, since they have different trajectories, and the outer fins of the missiles (the outer ones, at least) will be snagged in the net which will give them more resistance than the other side of the missile, which will cause the missile to turn.

You're a man of the RAW;

No idea what that means.

Rules As Written.

where in all the books does it say that this will happen?

It doesn't, but it doesn't need to.
That's just how the laws of physics work, and the laws of physics are presumed to be the same in the game world as they are in the real world unless otherwise specified.

Where is all the books does it say that the laws of physics apply? And to reenforce my position, FIREBALL!

And besides that, you're assuming that all the missiles get launched literally simoltaineously, maintaining the same exact speed while not taking into account that missile volley attacks may constitute different missiles, and that these missiles all travel at different speeds. Also, how can a direction change occur when these two objects meet head-on? Or if multiple missiles are netted, again they all had the same stopping (or slowing) force applied - how then does that qualify for a direction change?

Only your abitrary ruling is indicating a direction change.

Even clustered, there is no ruling that says the missiles change direction nor slow down or recieve a penalty to hit, and since the net is an attack akin to a bullet it will not act as an object which the missiles "slam" into and explode on, similar to a wall (if that were the case, SDC rounds would be used to stop missiles).

As I said before, that depends on the nature of the missiles' detonators.

Again, where does it state that missiles explode apon non-damaging projectiles?

Again, it doesn't need to.

And yet we need rules for everything else; what makes this situation so special?

Even that aside, logically this net will not apply pressure directly to the nose of the cone (where the pressure detonator would most likely be), as nets are designed to get hooked and entangle, not cover.

The second part of that sentence doesn't actually support the first part.

It does; nets have holes (due to design) and cannot completely cover an object; there will always be exposed spots (which is how they become entangled in the first place. Otherwise without ripping the net, there is nothing to snag and it will just slip off).

[Killer Cyborg]

That's just how the laws of physics work, and the laws of physics are presumed to be the same in the game world as they are in the real world unless otherwise specified.

Where is all the books does it say that the laws of physics apply? And to reenforce my position, FIREBALL!

That would be one of the examples of "otherwise specified."

And besides that, you're assuming that all the missiles get launched literally simoltaineously, maintaining the same exact speed while not taking into account that missile volley attacks may constitute different missiles, and that these missiles all travel at different speeds.

No, I'm not.
I addressed that elsewhere.

Also, how can a direction change occur when these two objects meet head-on? Or if multiple missiles are netted, again they all had the same stopping (or slowing) force applied - how then does that qualify for a direction change?

I already explained that.

Again, where does it state that missiles explode apon non-damaging projectiles?

Again, it doesn't need to.

And yet we need rules for everything else; what makes this situation so special?

We don't need rules for everything else.
As I already said, and you quoted:
The laws of physics are presumed to be the same in the game world as they are in the real world unless otherwise specified.

Even that aside, logically this net will not apply pressure directly to the nose of the cone (where the pressure detonator would most likely be), as nets are designed to get hooked and entangle, not cover.

The second part of that sentence doesn't actually support the first part.

It does; nets have holes (due to design) and cannot completely cover an object; there will always be exposed spots (which is how they become entangled in the first place. Otherwise without ripping the net, there is nothing to snag and it will just slip off).

Right; I get how nets work.
Now what part of that states that the part of the missile that triggers detonation will be sticking out through one of the holes, rather than being snagged on the net?

[The Beast]

Why are all these "who would win?" scenarios always set up in the most never-gonna-happen way?

A battle magus...and a SAMAS pilot, see each other at 200ft on the ground in the middle of a huge battle. What the hell is the SAMAS pilot doing...ON THE GROUND??

That's like asking "who would win between a kung fu master and a sniper if they were 5 ft away from each other?"

Agreed. Also I'd like to know why the BM gets 3 million credits to build his suit when the FB has to take a 2.6 million dollar suit. Shouldn't the FB get the same amount as the BM?

[Killer Cyborg]

Why are all these "who would win?" scenarios always set up in the most never-gonna-happen way?

A battle magus...and a SAMAS pilot, see each other at 200ft on the ground in the middle of a huge battle. What the hell is the SAMAS pilot doing...ON THE GROUND??

That's like asking "who would win between a kung fu master and a sniper if they were 5 ft away from each other?"

Agreed. Also I'd like to know why the BM gets 3 million credits to build his suit when the FB has to take a 2.6 million dollar suit. Shouldn't the FB get the same amount as the BM?

It was a discussion me and Lenwen were having with others.....................some people chimed in and thought that BM were the greatest thing since sliced bread, I brought them back down to earth and told them how a lonely run of the mill CS pilot can take them out even is teh BM had equal amount of money for equipment.....

That's it.

I congratulate you on your active fantasy life.

[ApocalypseZero]

So, are we safe to say you guys are ready to close this issue on the stalemate that it is?
Have we learned the lesson that all 'Vs.' threads end in a stalemate due to interpretations?
Will we continue to see 'Vs.' threads?

Sadly, I know the unfortunate answer to these questions and know where things will lead. But, hopefully a bit of advice that will clearly define something for anyone who reads this and is thinking about 'Vs.' threads.........

They never solve the conflict, yet instead drum up new conflicts between interpretations of the rules. Next time folks, find an 'IMPARTIAL' GM to allow you to settle the 'Vs.', it'll save more time.

[Dog_O_War]

I congratulate you on your active fantasy life.

Actually this week somebody has left our department so I had to fill in and put double time so I'm getting paid time and half to post on here......

Thanks btw, proving you wrong has been easier than I thought.................but that's easy to do with someone who writes with no substance.

Whoa, while I completely agree with you and know that KC is utterly wrong in this whole "netting missiles to explode them" (re: if a net can do it, why can't a bed-sheet? Because missiles don't explode on cloth, yo.), attacks (such as the above) are unwarranted. If these boards had a half-decent Mod., your post would be deleted and you'd be warned.

As it stands, use RAW; it is the most definitive and undenyable thing we have. No poster can say the RAW is wrong no matter how weak it may actually be.

[Lenwen]

Next time folks, find an 'IMPARTIAL' GM to allow you to settle the 'Vs.', it'll save more time.

Very well said ApocalypseZero

[Lenwen]

As it stands, use RAW; it is the most definitive and undenyable thing we have. No poster can say the RAW is wrong no matter how weak it may actually be.

What in Blazing Hades is RAW ??

[ApocalypseZero]

As it stands, use RAW; it is the most definitive and undenyable thing we have. No poster can say the RAW is wrong no matter how weak it may actually be.

What in Blazing Hades is RAW ??

It stands for Rules As Written.

On thing I do sit and question is the Magic Net vs. Missiles. It's an interesting concept. Had KC done it in my game, he'd definately be getting some sizable XP chunks for it. But, I will say that the way KC sees the TW Snare Gun working and the way I see it (or all TW Weapons for that matter) are different.

One thing I must point out about Magic Net is that it takes time to 'cut free' from the Magic Net. That gives me enough to make a decision that it's capable of detonating the Missiles if they are snared. However, I still feel that the TW Snare Gun will need a Roll to Hit the missiles. It's not only logical but also a balance. The missiles will get no dodge (they're not Reflex or Smart missiles), so a Hit with the Net will get them all. Now, on the same token, I would not grant a -26 to Hit on the missiles unless said missiles have been in air and able to build up the speed (at least one attack if not two attacks in air). This is where many 'Techies' (whom I refer to as the 'Tech-based' people who think that Tech is superior in most situations) tend to try to overlook, skirt, or not pay much attention to. With R:UE, alot of the Tech vs. Magic issues has been balanced out. Shooting can now be upwards of 4 attacks for a single shot, where Magic is now possible to be used on every attack (providing Level and P.P.E.).

In the end, I applaud some of the novel ideas and interesting thoughts everyone has shown in this thread, but it's really looking like the S.O.T. debates (and anyone knowing Slag's signature can reference the beating of the dead horse). Again, sadly this is how VS. threads go, a nugget of value hidden inside a myrad of rules interpretations.

[Killer Cyborg]

I congratulate you on your active fantasy life.

Actually this week somebody has left our department so I had to fill in and put double time so I'm getting paid time and half to post on here......

That explains a lot.

Thanks btw, proving you wrong has been easier than I thought.................but that's easy to do with someone who writes with no substance.

lol
"I'm rubber, you're glue..."

[Killer Cyborg]

So, are we safe to say you guys are ready to close this issue on the stalemate that it is?
Have we learned the lesson that all 'Vs.' threads end in a stalemate due to interpretations?

Hell, that's where I started.

Will we continue to see 'Vs.' threads?

Definitely.

Sadly, I know the unfortunate answer to these questions and know where things will lead. But, hopefully a bit of advice that will clearly define something for anyone who reads this and is thinking about 'Vs.' threads.........

They never solve the conflict, yet instead drum up new conflicts between interpretations of the rules. Next time folks, find an 'IMPARTIAL' GM to allow you to settle the 'Vs.', it'll save more time.

It would be nice if we were able to work with a system that was clear and comprehensive enough that we could discuss what would happen in various scenarios without it devolving into chaos.
The inspiration for these threads (usually, at least) is people wanting to come together with other people who like the same game that they do, and to talk about it.
The problem is that no two groups actually play the same version of Rifts; there are too many vague or conflicting parts of the rules for that.

But yeah, unless we DO get a better system, I agree that there's not much point in starting one of these threads (unless you're willing to get down into the nitty-gritty of rule specifics).

[Killer Cyborg]

Telling somebody they write with no substance is an attack?

Yup.
Especially when you're clearly wrong about the claim.

Sorry man, but KC doesn't get a pass from critisizm cause he's been around here for a while.....

True.
I get a pass because I use logic and the rules, and write good posts.
People often disagree with me, but it's pretty clear to everybody (but you, apparently) that I'm not writing unsubstantially.

........I didn't mention anything when I said the excuses were getting pathetic and he spouts back "that's what I've been thinking about you since the fist page"............I took the high road and didn't anything back b/c I actually like to stay on subject.

I don't think that insulting somebody, then backing off when the insult gets tossed back at you, constitutes "The High Road."

Either way, he claims all these VS threads end up like this.................I wonder if that's b/c he participates in them?? coincidence??

Actually, I usually don't bother participating, because they all end up like this.
Worse, really.

I'm done on this subject, nice talking and sharing ideas with you other people that participated though.

Anytime.

[Killer Cyborg]

On thing I do sit and question is the Magic Net vs. Missiles. It's an interesting concept. Had KC done it in my game, he'd definately be getting some sizable XP chunks for it. But, I will say that the way KC sees the TW Snare Gun working and the way I see it (or all TW Weapons for that matter) are different.

That's pretty much true for any two people.
Magic Net is one of those spells that have a LOT of interpretations, like Carpet of Adhesion, and TW items also have a number of interpretations, and shooting down missiles has a number of interpretations... and it all combines into a situation where very few people would agree on exactly the same call.

One thing I must point out about Magic Net is that it takes time to 'cut free' from the Magic Net. That gives me enough to make a decision that it's capable of detonating the Missiles if they are snared.

Not sure what you mean here.

However, I still feel that the TW Snare Gun will need a Roll to Hit the missiles. It's not only logical but also a balance.

That's the way I've actually always played it, but it's one of those calls where it isn't clear whether I'm house-ruling it or playing by the book.

The missiles will get no dodge (they're not Reflex or Smart missiles), so a Hit with the Net will get them all. Now, on the same token, I would not grant a -26 to Hit on the missiles unless said missiles have been in air and able to build up the speed (at least one attack if not two attacks in air). This is where many 'Techies' (whom I refer to as the 'Tech-based' people who think that Tech is superior in most situations) tend to try to overlook, skirt, or not pay much attention to.

Interesting.
Is this an official rule somewhere, or a house rule?

With R:UE, alot of the Tech vs. Magic issues has been balanced out. Shooting can now be upwards of 4 attacks for a single shot, where Magic is now possible to be used on every attack (providing Level and P.P.E.).

Yup.
It leaves me with an unresolved question, though.
If mages' spells can be interrupted because they take time and concentration, can an Aimed or Called shot?
Can you make Aimed or Called shots while under heavy fire (which prevents mages from casting)?

RUE solves a lot of problems, but it creates some new ones.
Or, at least, some new questions.

In the end, I applaud some of the novel ideas and interesting thoughts everyone has shown in this thread, but it's really looking like the S.O.T. debates (and anyone knowing Slag's signature can reference the beating of the dead horse). Again, sadly this is how VS. threads go, a nugget of value hidden inside a myrad of rules interpretations.

Heck, that's how most threads go.

[cornholioprime]

So, are we safe to say you guys are ready to close this issue on the stalemate that it is?
Have we learned the lesson that all 'Vs.' threads end in a stalemate due to interpretations?
Will we continue to see 'Vs.' threads?

Sadly, I know the unfortunate answer to these questions and know where things will lead. But, hopefully a bit of advice that will clearly define something for anyone who reads this and is thinking about 'Vs.' threads.........

They never solve the conflict, yet instead drum up new conflicts between interpretations of the rules. Next time folks, find an 'IMPARTIAL' GM to allow you to settle the 'Vs.', it'll save more time.

Not true.

Sometimes, though, the opponents are more 'evenly' matched by the initial setup, battle conditions, and tactics on the part of those who participate in them. This particular Vs. Battle was closer to a draw; many other such set-ups are not.

Hell, we had a "Phoenixi vs. Mystic Kuynzya" Thread which was decisively settled some time back (in favor of the Phoenixi, at least at lower levels).

[Lenwen]

The missiles will get no dodge (they're not Reflex or Smart missiles), so a Hit with the Net will get them all. Now, on the same token, I would not grant a -26 to Hit on the missiles unless said missiles have been in air and able to build up the speed (at least one attack if not two attacks in air). This is where many 'Techies' (whom I refer to as the 'Tech-based' people who think that Tech is superior in most situations) tend to try to overlook, skirt, or not pay much attention to.

Interesting.
Is this an official rule

It's definitely a house rule, but it's probably best to get Phalanx to handle the math on this one given the rapid acceleration of modern day missiles and shoulder launched rockets I'm curious as to just how long it would take a mini-missile equivalent to reach max speed in our time.

According to Rue ... Mini missles do not have any type of engine what so ever nor a guidence system .. thier dumb .. meaning thier shot exactly like a bullet an after the inital propelsion from the chamber ... they do not get any more acceleration ..

Just thought I'd remind you all about that prior to trying to figure out any hard numbers for a missle that has an engine ... an which can accelerate faster then its actual "shot" out of the chamber ..

[Subjugator]

...I know this isn't canon, but....

RIght.
Nuff said there.

And if you ready my previous post, TW Jammer pistol won't work like that...........read the spell description....

Read it, and you're wrong.
The spell will work on any machine up to the size of a basketball
The spell can be used "to prevent a gun (of any kind) from firing" and can cause jet packs "to sputter."

The description says that it's "ideal for" gears, pulleys, buttons, locks, etc, but those are nowhere near the only things it works on.

Read number 1 under Sharpshooting ability ... They would normally lose them yes .. but in the case of the BM .. they do not ..
Also he can shoot rifles that would normally be shot with two hands with only 1 hand .
My only question now becomes ...
How does it not work then according to the BM's sharpshooting skill bullet # 1 ?

WP Sharpshooting the BM gets only applies to melee weapons, handguns, bow and arrow, and magical energy blasts.............

Correct.
There's some vagueness in the definition of "handgun," though, and even taking the strictest sense of the word ("pistols"), there are some weapons that are poorly defined (plasma pistols) that might be Heavy Energy weapons that are also Handguns.
Taken more loosely, it just means any hand-portable gun that you don't need a bipod, tripod, or special mounting to use. Under this definition, rifles would be fully applicable.
And you have to ask yourself, IF rifles aren't eligible for the Sharpshooter skill for Battle Mages, then what's the point of even having the "may shoot rifles one-handed" option for them?

In short, if you're going to argue with Killer Cyborg, you'd better have ALL of your ducks in a row.

I argue with him all the time, and while we may disagree a lot, I have to respect his intellect, his ability to describe what he actually means, and his argumentative prowess.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Ok, the only net gun I can find is the Slaver's Net gun (BoM pg.315) this is a large bulky weapon.

As for the TW Jammer, it only affects the key mechanism in firing. Could be used to disable one launcher per shot, jamming the mechanism the fires the missiles.

It could also disable his steering mechanism or his thruster *control*. Flying into a wall at several hundred miles per hour = demolished SAMAS.

The Battle Magus would need to win the initiative- first off, if not then he is dead...

Maybe. If that is true though, then it is also true that the SAMAS pilot would also have to win initiative first off, and if not, then he's dead. Not a good argument.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

My bad on the swords, I under estimated their cost. As for the shoes of fleetness, they're in PFRPG under alchemy items, cloth items to be more exact. Anyway, I changed my mind on that.

As to the sheild, yes it would be TW, It's actually called a mirror sheild and runs in the 220,000-440,000. Book of magic, page 320. Well, since the weapon of choice is nixed, I'd go with a Jammer pistol(115,000), Lightning mace and a wingboard turbo (200,000).
On top of that, the spell 'Invincible armor'.

I know I'm well under 3 million there, but that's fine. It's basically a battle of attrition. Use the sheild to parry till you get close enough with the wingboard, use the spell to handle the rest of the fire you miss parrying. When possible, parry the shots back at him. Fire the jammer at his weapons once you in range. When you get close enough to make a pass, lay into him with the axe to further screw up his systems. With a little luck and some good parry and strike rolls the magus should be able to take him, but it would take a while. Refresh the armor spell when needed but don't bother recharging the pistol once it's empty.

NICE CALL on the wingboard. I didn't think of that.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

^^so since teh wand(I refuse to call it a gun now) is casting teh spell.............it will abide by teh same rules of spell casting, which says you can't cast magic under direct fire........

The direct fire being the missles coming at you.

Wrong.

That's part of why TW weapons are so nice. Pull the trigger, and instant effect!

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Unacceptable. If this were the case, SDC lead rounds would explode missiles, as they too are solid objects. But the book states that they need to take atleast 1-2 MD (for the specific type of mini-missile) to explode, so impacting a net would neither slow nor explode them; infact, unless the net spell descriptor states that it ties itself off, I'm not even sure they would break formation.

Following your logic, a missile that hit the ground would not go off.

The difference between the ground and net, and the SDC lead rounds is that the lead bullets are not hitting it as a generic obstacle, but are pitter-pattering against the side and front of it relatively randomly. The net and ground are an obstacle - it will NOT fully penetrate them (i.e. it won't come out of the other side of the earth). As such, it will detonate as having reached a target (though not the target specified. Even if they don't detonate, the net would stop their motion.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

If you think that the detonator must suffer a mega-damage impact, that's cool.
It just means that missiles rarely explode in your world, since they're not likely to suffer mega-damage impact from striking the target.

We've had this discussion before. They'll suffer MD from striking a sufficiently massive SDC object at a high enough speed.

/Sub

[Dog_O_War]

The Battle Magus would need to win the initiative- first off, if not then he is dead...

Maybe. If that is true though, then it is also true that the SAMAS pilot would also have to win initiative first off, and if not, then he's dead. Not a good argument.

/Sub

Actually it is a very good arguement because by average results the SAMAS goes first, dodges everything, and always hits atleast once per round.

Why? He has a higher initiative mod., dodge mod., and attacks per round. His weapons deal more damage at a greater range, and he has more MDC (barring repeated castings to renew spells). He isn't restricted to melee combat, or the ground (as was the original Battle Magus + equipment list was). Though the SAMAS pilot is at a severe disadvantage (small engagement area), meanwhile the Battle Magus has been given a decisive boost, equipment-wise.

Unacceptable. If this were the case, SDC lead rounds would explode missiles, as they too are solid objects. But the book states that they need to take atleast 1-2 MD (for the specific type of mini-missile) to explode, so impacting a net would neither slow nor explode them; infact, unless the net spell descriptor states that it ties itself off, I'm not even sure they would break formation.

Following your logic, a missile that hit the ground would not go off.

The difference between the ground and net, and the SDC lead rounds is that the lead bullets are not hitting it as a generic obstacle, but are pitter-pattering against the side and front of it relatively randomly. The net and ground are an obstacle - it will NOT fully penetrate them (i.e. it won't come out of the other side of the earth). As such, it will detonate as having reached a target (though not the target specified. Even if they don't detonate, the net would stop their motion.

/Sub

If you follow the logical path that logic takes, unanchored nets do not explode missiles, kill riders on bikes (because they are not infact objects that would lay out crash rules due to 1000Lb.+ vehicles impacting objects), or travel at 500-1400 mph to their maximum range (which at that point they become lethal due to speed. Why? Because at 2053ft per second (1400mph) is super-sonic, and faster than most bullets).

Again, the net exploding missiles is both illogical and just plain dumb.

[Subjugator]

The BM has 1400 MPH min missles coming at him

Mini missiles do not start out moving at 1400mph. They have a period of acceleration. If you want nigh on instant acceleration, look at a rail gun.

That's cool KC, if you and your friends enjoy playing the game by lawyering the rules by all means go for it.............but 99% of the people would agree with me..........I guess you could look at it that way, you're the special 1%

Well, first of all, when arguing online about what would happen, unless house rules are specified in the original description, they should not be brought into it.

I for one, do NOT agree with you. That's AT LEAST two people out of the few here, which is a lot more than 1%.

/Sub

[Natasha]

The Battle Magus would need to win the initiative- first off, if not then he is dead...

Maybe. If that is true though, then it is also true that the SAMAS pilot would also have to win initiative first off, and if not, then he's dead. Not a good argument.

/Sub

Actually it is a very good arguement because by average results the SAMAS goes first, dodges everything, and always hits atleast once per round.

Why? He has a higher initiative mod., dodge mod., and attacks per round. His weapons deal more damage at a greater range, and he has more MDC (barring repeated castings to renew spells). He isn't restricted to melee combat, or the ground (as was the original Battle Magus + equipment list was). Though the SAMAS pilot is at a severe disadvantage (small engagement area), meanwhile the Battle Magus has been given a decisive boost, equipment-wise.

Unacceptable. If this were the case, SDC lead rounds would explode missiles, as they too are solid objects. But the book states that they need to take atleast 1-2 MD (for the specific type of mini-missile) to explode, so impacting a net would neither slow nor explode them; infact, unless the net spell descriptor states that it ties itself off, I'm not even sure they would break formation.

Following your logic, a missile that hit the ground would not go off.

The difference between the ground and net, and the SDC lead rounds is that the lead bullets are not hitting it as a generic obstacle, but are pitter-pattering against the side and front of it relatively randomly. The net and ground are an obstacle - it will NOT fully penetrate them (i.e. it won't come out of the other side of the earth). As such, it will detonate as having reached a target (though not the target specified. Even if they don't detonate, the net would stop their motion.

/Sub

If you follow the logical path that logic takes, unanchored nets do not explode missiles, kill riders on bikes (because they are not infact objects that would lay out crash rules due to 1000Lb.+ vehicles impacting objects), or travel at 500-1400 mph to their maximum range (which at that point they become lethal due to speed. Why? Because at 2053ft per second (1400mph) is super-sonic, and faster than most bullets).

Again, the net exploding missiles is both illogical and just plain dumb.

Eh, most rifles can achieve muzzle velocities over 2053 feet per second.

[Dog_O_War]

The BM has 1400 MPH min missles coming at him

Mini missiles do not start out moving at 1400mph. They have a period of acceleration. If you want nigh on instant acceleration, look at a rail gun.

Prove it.

[lather]

Eh, most rifles can achieve muzzle velocities over 2053 feet per second.

In some cases a lot more.

[Subjugator]

Why are all these "who would win?" scenarios always set up in the most never-gonna-happen way?

A battle magus...and a SAMAS pilot, see each other at 200ft on the ground in the middle of a huge battle. What the hell is the SAMAS pilot doing...ON THE GROUND??

That's like asking "who would win between a kung fu master and a sniper if they were 5 ft away from each other?"

Agreed. Also I'd like to know why the BM gets 3 million credits to build his suit when the FB has to take a 2.6 million dollar suit. Shouldn't the FB get the same amount as the BM?

Um - I don't have my books with me, but is the 2.6 million manufacturing cost, or retail? I *seriously* doubt it's retail.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

The BM has 1400 MPH min missles coming at him

Mini missiles do not start out moving at 1400mph. They have a period of acceleration. If you want nigh on instant acceleration, look at a rail gun.

Prove it.

Actually, I'm going to have to retract that statement based on the words of others in this thread. I don't have my books with me, but they're saying they now work a lot like cannon shells and the like, which would mean that their full energy expenditure would occur inside the chamber.

BTW - LOTS of bullets go faster than 2000-ish feet per second. The .220 swift can go as fast as 4213fps with a factory load.

/Sub

[Natasha]

BTW - LOTS of bullets go faster than 2000-ish feet per second. The .220 swift can go as fast as 4213fps with a factory load.

Yea, basically only the handgun calibers are subsonic, although I think I heard of .223 being made subsonic.

It's been a while since I read the ballistics.

[Subjugator]

Actually it is a very good arguement because by average results the SAMAS goes first, dodges everything, and always hits atleast once per round.

Why? He has a higher initiative mod., dodge mod., and attacks per round. His weapons deal more damage at a greater range, and he has more MDC (barring repeated castings to renew spells). He isn't restricted to melee combat, or the ground (as was the original Battle Magus + equipment list was). Though the SAMAS pilot is at a severe disadvantage (small engagement area), meanwhile the Battle Magus has been given a decisive boost, equipment-wise.

Hm. So long as the BM can take the first hit (which, in KC's case, he can - also...can you dodge volleys in R:UE?), he can then go Invisible, re-enable the AOI, and then form an attack plan.

Good point though.

If you follow the logical path that logic takes, unanchored nets do not explode missiles

Actually, I was assuming that all magic nets magically 'attempt' to anchor after striking their targets. If they don't, then I'd get some sort of TW CoA gun and stick the rest of the missiles in their chambers after the first volley.

Again, the net exploding missiles is both illogical and just plain dumb.

I didn't say the net would absolutely explode the missiles. I said it would explode them or stop them. The statement about being unanchored is a good point, and I've addressed it in my statement.

So - to magic nets automatically anchor, or do they simply hang there? Would the presence of a magic net alter the path of the missiles sufficiently to make them miss (since they are not 'smart' and cannot adjust their path)?

Yea, basically only the handgun calibers are subsonic, although I think I heard of .223 being made subsonic.

It's been a while since I read the ballistics.

I've got a copy of Thatcher's Notebook in storage, and when I get my apartment I can lend it to you if you want. The 9mm is a hypersonic round, which is why it's so poor a weapon as a choice for suppressors. Oddly, the quietest weapon I've ever heard of (the H&K MP5SD5) is a 9mm firer, but you can only hear the bolt closing...no bullet sound whatsoever (or so I'm told - I've not fired one).

/Sub

[Lenwen]

The BM has 1400 MPH min missles coming at him

Mini missiles do not start out moving at 1400mph. They have a period of acceleration. If you want nigh on instant acceleration, look at a rail gun.
/Sub

Actually according to Rue ... Mini missles do not have a period of acceleration outside of being shot like a bullet out of thier respective chambers ...

[Subjugator]

2.6 is the CS cost that it has in the CWC book, but let not get caught up in the details.

How would you outfit your BM and what would be your game plan?

My point with that is that comparing 2.6 million at cost with 3 million retail is apples and oranges.

What would I do? Hm...I have no books with me right now, so I'll be limited here. Bear with me if I get stuff that's illegal or wrong.

I'd probably go with some good armor, throw on the best Naruni force field I could find, and then give it:

Armor Bizarre
Invisibility Superior
Impervious to Energy
Fly

A time slip TW device would be nice. That'd give me several free attacks.
I'd have a few scrolls of that spell that does 2d4x100 damage out of FoM...it uses antimatter, but I cannot remember the name of it.

Are there any items that'd give the BM TK Forcefield? If so, I'd take that. An impact with a force field at several hundred MPH would demolish the armor.

Those are what I can think of offhand. For that matter though, with several million credits, couldn't the BM hire a bunch of full conversion borgs for an afternoon and have them toast the Flyboy?

Actually according to Rue ... Mini missles do not have a period of acceleration outside of being shot like a bullet out of thier respective chambers ...

I've adjusted.

/Sub

[Dog_O_War]

2.6 is the CS cost that it has in the CWC book, but let not get caught up in the details.

How would you outfit your BM and what would be your game plan?

My point with that is that comparing 2.6 million at cost with 3 million retail is apples and oranges.

Not really. It could be a SAMAS "Death's Head" (at 1.6-2 mil knock-off market price) versus a BM with maybe 500,000 in cash. In an arena that's 1000ft square instead of one that's a little bigger than a hockey rink.

But as it stands, it is a fair balance in terms of price.

[Subjugator]

2.6 is the CS cost that it has in the CWC book, but let not get caught up in the details.

How would you outfit your BM and what would be your game plan?

My point with that is that comparing 2.6 million at cost with 3 million retail is apples and oranges.

Not really. It could be a SAMAS "Death's Head" (at 1.6-2 mil knock-off market price) versus a BM with maybe 500,000 in cash. In an arena that's 1000ft square instead of one that's a little bigger than a hockey rink.

But as it stands, it is a fair balance in terms of price.

At first I thought you meant 1,000 square feet. As in, 31.6'x31.6'. That's TINY.

Like I said, list what you would buy by the book............as in items listed with prices.......to do a fair comparison. If you can find it in a book, it's fair game.

I am listing what I would buy...but like I said, I don't have the books with me. Other than the CoA weapon, what I'm listing is in the books though.

CoA on the steering controls (the fins) of the SAMAS would be interesting. He could move forward, backward, up, or down, but he could NOT steer anywhere that his wings were not already pointing.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

I am listing what I would buy...but like I said, I don't have the books with me. Other than the CoA weapon, what I'm listing is in the books though.

What book or where is that CoA weapon?

See above.

Oh yeah, the time slip device isn't in a book either...mea culpa.

My translation on casting CoA on people and thier armor is that it actually makes the area your targeting sticky, so everything that would be touching teh jets would get stuck to it, not necessarily the jets are stuck automatically.

I'd be casting it on the fins themselves. They would become sticky...as a whole...and would therefore stick to the pivot point and not be able to move. If you want to make it generic to the entire armor, I'm good with that too...then the wings, arms, legs, etc, would not be able to move.

Think about it, if that were teh case all anyone would ever have to do it cast CoA on any foe around their whole body, wrap them up like a taco adn they're done. But we'll leave the translation of CoA be, and assume it can do what you want just to see what the rest of your plan would be.

A person who is not in armor does not have pivot points on the outside of their bodies that would be effected by CoA.

If there is no item with CoA, I'd get a scroll of it.

My plan would be reasonably simple:

I'd do the following:

Use invisibility: superior to become invisible to him, CoA his armor to limit or negate his ability to fly effectively, and then once he landed, would magic net him to the ground. I'd then go behind him and kill him at my leisure. I could re-net him at any time I really felt like it and he'd have no ability to dodge it, being previously netted.

If he didn't land, then I'd fly up to meet him and use my ability to maneuver in flight to kill him.

Absent that, hm - I'd probably use some paint guns or something similar to reduce his ability to see, use smoke and the like to reduce the efficacy of his thermo imaging, and use chaff to hose his radar. Hm...that'd be an interesting TW item - it causes tons of explosions of temporary metal particles to hose radar use.

I might buy my OWN rack of mini missiles and use them against the SAMAS. Either that, or I'd buy a Maxi-Man or Undead Slayer to help me out with the issue.

/Sub

[Lenwen]

I am listing what I would buy...but like I said, I don't have the books with me. Other than the CoA weapon, what I'm listing is in the books though.

What book or where is that CoA weapon?

See above.

Oh yeah, the time slip device isn't in a book either...mea culpa.

My translation on casting CoA on people and thier armor is that it actually makes the area your targeting sticky, so everything that would be touching teh jets would get stuck to it, not necessarily the jets are stuck automatically.

I'd be casting it on the fins themselves. They would become sticky...as a whole...and would therefore stick to the pivot point and not be able to move. If you want to make it generic to the entire armor, I'm good with that too...then the wings, arms, legs, etc, would not be able to move.

Think about it, if that were teh case all anyone would ever have to do it cast CoA on any foe around their whole body, wrap them up like a taco adn they're done. But we'll leave the translation of CoA be, and assume it can do what you want just to see what the rest of your plan would be.

A person who is not in armor does not have pivot points on the outside of their bodies that would be effected by CoA.

If there is no item with CoA, I'd get a scroll of it.

My plan would be reasonably simple:

I'd do the following:

Use invisibility: superior to become invisible to him, CoA his armor to limit or negate his ability to fly effectively, and then once he landed, would magic net him to the ground. I'd then go behind him and kill him at my leisure. I could re-net him at any time I really felt like it and he'd have no ability to dodge it, being previously netted.

If he didn't land, then I'd fly up to meet him and use my ability to maneuver in flight to kill him.

Absent that, hm - I'd probably use some paint guns or something similar to reduce his ability to see, use smoke and the like to reduce the efficacy of his thermo imaging, and use chaff to hose his radar. Hm...that'd be an interesting TW item - it causes tons of explosions of temporary metal particles to hose radar use.

I might buy my OWN rack of mini missiles and use them against the SAMAS. Either that, or I'd buy a Maxi-Man or Undead Slayer to help me out with the issue.

/Sub

whoa thats complicated ... heh I as a spell caster if I were at min 6th lvl would simply continually buy the big 16 lbs Fusion blocks that do 4d6x10 per blast to a 12 ft area ...

Then I'd go on a samas head hunt ... Cast following spells ..
Invis lesser ... on the block as well .
Head to where ever I knew there were a bunch of samas ...
get close enough to cast CoA on the samas .. then cast teleport les on the Fusion Block directly on the samas right in back of the head on top of the rockets ... an then simply watch the fireworks ...

[Natasha]

Yea, basically only the handgun calibers are subsonic, although I think I heard of .223 being made subsonic.

It's been a while since I read the ballistics.

I've got a copy of Thatcher's Notebook in storage, and when I get my apartment I can lend it to you if you want. The 9mm is a hypersonic round, which is why it's so poor a weapon as a choice for suppressors. Oddly, the quietest weapon I've ever heard of (the H&K MP5SD5) is a 9mm firer, but you can only hear the bolt closing...no bullet sound whatsoever (or so I'm told - I've not fired one).

/Sub

Ok.
Well I don't want to totally derail this topic but subsonic 9mm is manufactured. It used to have a bad reputation if I recall correctly but like I said it's been a long time since I paid attention to the finer details of ammo. These days, I shoot it. I don't read it.

[Lenwen]

whoa thats complicated ... heh I as a spell caster if I were at min 6th lvl would simply continually buy the big 16 lbs Fusion blocks that do 4d6x10 per blast to a 12 ft area ...

Then I'd go on a samas head hunt ... Cast following spells ..
Invis lesser ... on the block as well .
Head to where ever I knew there were a bunch of samas ...
get close enough to cast CoA on the samas .. then cast teleport les on the Fusion Block directly on the samas right in back of the head on top of the rockets ... an then simply watch the fireworks ...

Well that's just too easy, that's why I stated the circumstances and levels of the PC's in the first post.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you think that the detonator must suffer a mega-damage impact, that's cool.
It just means that missiles rarely explode in your world, since they're not likely to suffer mega-damage impact from striking the target.

We've had this discussion before. They'll suffer MD from striking a sufficiently massive SDC object at a high enough speed.

/Sub

Not in the actual rules, though. Not that I've seen.

Which just gets back to the point that it all comes down to the specifics of rule interpretation.

[Killer Cyborg]

- also...can you dodge volleys in R:UE?

It appears to be the same as before: you can dodge as many mini-missiles as somebody throws at you, but you can't dodge 4+ guided missiles (short range or better).

[Jesterzzn]

Ignoring all previous replies because I am sure someone else said it...

Battle Magus.

You didn't detail the spells, and given my choice I think I could pick a few that would make short work of any single PA pilot regardless his skill.

But the most glaring advantage would be in Technowizard gear. Heck you can make armor with immunities to most attacks AND superior invisibility for under 3mil. He might see me at the same time I see him, but that's the last time he'll see me before I want him to.

[cornholioprime]

Ignoring all previous replies because I am sure someone else said it...

Battle Magus.

You didn't detail the spells, and given my choice I think I could pick a few that would make short work of any single PA pilot regardless his skill.

But the most glaring advantage would be in Technowizard gear. Heck you can make armor with immunities to most attacks AND superior invisibility for under 3mil. He might see me at the same time I see him, but that's the last time he'll see me before I want him to.

The SAMAS Pilot could just fly out of range for hours and hours (keeping sensors trained on the area) 'til the various Spells wear off; they can't last indefinitely, and I bet that the standard "3x per day" rule will apply.

In a nutshell, if the SAMAS Pilot has enough smarts (and Lore: Magic) in him, he'll just know to be patient and/or force the BM, from out of range, to slowly expend the PPE in his body and his TW devices/armors.

BTW: Had the SAMAS been equipped with its full standard rollout of Particle Beams AND its Rail Gun, favor shifts dramatically over to the SAMAS, at least at low to mid-levels for both characters.

[ApocalypseZero]

I hear about all these TW armors that can do all these nifty things but where are you guys finding them with prices listed?

RIFTS: Ultimate Edition, Creating Techno-Wizard Items, around pg. 130 (off the top of my head).

[Dog_O_War]

Ignoring all previous replies because I am sure someone else said it...

Battle Magus.

You didn't detail the spells, and given my choice I think I could pick a few that would make short work of any single PA pilot regardless his skill.

But the most glaring advantage would be in Technowizard gear. Heck you can make armor with immunities to most attacks AND superior invisibility for under 3mil. He might see me at the same time I see him, but that's the last time he'll see me before I want him to.

That's the problem though; what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

If a mage goes invisible, pilot tends to want to even out that playing field and smokes the place. Now neither can see. He then carpet missiles the area; patterns of 4 plasma missiles cover a 60ft by 60ft area, but more importantly (as undoubtedly the mage has energy protection) they create craters of glass - brittle "I can see where your general area is" glass. Atleast he will be able to once the smoke clears.

But again, the real problem for the mage isn't this; it's getting all this crap activated before that fateful first attack from the SAMAS pilot.

[Killer Cyborg]

I hear about all these TW armors that can do all these nifty things but where are you guys finding them with prices listed??

As I've already said, it's in the original Rifts book, in the Techno-Wizardry section.