"Unofficial" 2nd Edition Discussion

[Mantisking]

OK, with RUE just 3 years old now, & Shadow Chronicles out for only a few months, I've been doing some thinking about how to bring N&S in line with the rest of Palladium's games.

How about doing the opposite?

Yes, I know N&S was always a little "different", especially with its combat rules. But at least in the past (i.e. pre-HU2, pre-BTS2, pre-RUE, pre-TSC, pre-PFRPG2) it could at least be viewed more as "advanced combat rules" versus "basic combat rules" as used in the other games. Not only are the "generic" HTH skills approaching near-parity with N&S's Agent "generic" forms in terms of available combat moves, the additional melee attacks of the "generic" HTH skills make it very difficult even for a more specialized martial artist to deal with an opponent even at lower levels (let alone high levels, where "generic" HTH Basic is supposed to make the user able to hold their own against someone with "generic" HTH Martial Arts).

Since when? HTH Basic has al;ways been the weaker style of the two.

Attribute/S.D.C. Bonuses:
These can stay just as they are. The only thing I'd consider adding in is perhaps a bonus to P.P.E. However, I haven't figured out if it should only be for forms that have Chi bonuses (i.e. +X to Chi, Chi xY, etc.), forms that offer Chi Mastery, or all forms in general. Also, I haven't decided if Chi should even be maintained, or if P.P.E. should substitute in its place.

Ugh, no. People have been arguing this for years and it doesn't work. P.P.E. can't substitute for Negative Chi.

Special Katas also look OK, with only 1 exception: Kobu-jutsu/Weapon Kata. The only reason this has an issue, though, is that under the new RUE/TSC combat rules, all characters get to combine their W.P. bonuses with their HTH bonuses. Yep, that's right: even a lowly guy with HTH Basic can add his PP & HTH strike bonuses to W.P. Sword/Knife/whatever, for no extra cost. That pretty much makes Weapon Katas useless as currently written. I haven't figured out yet how to adjust it, but I have a few ideas:
-- Weapon Kata doubles the normal bonuses from the W.P. skill
-- Weapon Kata adds X [1d4 or 1d6 tops] levels to your W.P. skill (i.e. at 1st level your W.P. Sword would be at level 1d4+1)
-- Weapon Kata provides you with a free W.P. skill selection
-- Weapon Kata is treated as a separate "add-on" W.P. that applies to the selected weapons, with its own level progression (i.e. +1 strike/parry at levels 1, 4, 8, and 12), with level 1 starting at the level you select the particular kata

My preferences are the last 2.

I'll have to look at the new rules in Shadow Chronicles.

Pull Punch: Pretty much every generic form now starts off with a +2 bonus to pull bunch. So, I'd suggest that every martial art form gets a bonus to pull punch that's either +2 or identical to their roll with punch bonus, whichever is larger.

Don't bother with the bonus for "named" styles. Just give them an Automatic Pull Punch to reflect the level of skill inherent in the art.

Initiative: Not only do some of the generic HTH skills now provide initiative bonuses, but even some of the Rifts Japan forms provided initiative bonuses (i.e. +2 for Ninjitsu at 1st level, additional +1 at 8th & 12th levels). The problem, of course, is figuring out where to put the bonuses (if any), particularly since I'm having trouble finding an N&S form that even gives initiative bonuses.

There aren't any.

[Tinker Dragoon]

This is particularly critical, given that N&S had specific conversion criteria for use in other game settings that can no longer be plugged into the updated games. As was mentioned in a recent discussion on the HU board, the Ancient Master from HU2 is so different from the HU Revised edition that it has to be completely reworked.

HU2 already has its own rules for combining with N&S, although I guess it would be nice to have them all on one page.

Attacks per melee:
Palladium has abandoned the old "2 AT for living + HTH" argument... but replaced it by directly adding 2 extra AT/melee at 1st level for all of the generic forms. Therefore, it's probably safe to go ahead and add 2 extra AT/melee for the N&S/MC forms as well.

Adding attacks across the board goes against the basic design of many styles; they start with only one or two APM for a reason. I would rather see a return to the attacks per melee given in the Original Edition of N&S.

Attribute/S.D.C. Bonuses:
These can stay just as they are. The only thing I'd consider adding in is perhaps a bonus to P.P.E. However, I haven't figured out if it should only be for forms that have Chi bonuses (i.e. +X to Chi, Chi xY, etc.), forms that offer Chi Mastery, or all forms in general. Also, I haven't decided if Chi should even be maintained, or if P.P.E. should substitute in its place.

I believe P.P.E. is adequately dealt with in Mystic China, which also demonstrates that P.P.E. and Chi can coexist just fine in the same setting.

Special Katas also look OK, with only 1 exception: Kobu-jutsu/Weapon Kata. The only reason this has an issue, though, is that under the new RUE/TSC combat rules, all characters get to combine their W.P. bonuses with their HTH bonuses. Yep, that's right: even a lowly guy with HTH Basic can add his PP & HTH strike bonuses to W.P. Sword/Knife/whatever, for no extra cost. That pretty much makes Weapon Katas useless as currently written.

That's nothing new. It's always been that way in Rifts, HU, and other games. N&S was unique in requiring characters to have a Weapon Kata in order to combine their W.P. bonuses with their martial art bonuses. Given how high the W.P. bonuses can get in N&S, I've never seen this as a detriment. The one issue I have is that among the Agent Hand to Hand combat skills, only Hand to Hand: Assassin offers any Weapon Kata. I think it should be possible to get a small number of Weapon Kata through the other Agent HtH skills.

There are only a few areas that need taken care of:
Parry vs. Automatic Parry: This is no longer an issue, as "Parry" now refers to N&S's "Automatic" Parry. Only the schmucks with no HTH training have to spend a melee action on a parry, so just remove the reference to auto-parries.

Actually, there are still situations in which even trained combatants use a standard, non-automatic Parry, such as when using Paired Weapons, or after performing certain Special Kata or combat maneuvers. Also, there's at least one Martial Art form out there that doesn't learn Automatic Parry. They are still two different maneuvers, even in RUE.

Automatic Dodge: The definition has drastically changed from N&S's version. Aside from the description, though, the biggest hurdle is how to handle it for the martial art forms that list it as an available move. My thought is that the level progressions for those few forms should include some bonuses to auto-dodge, with the maximums topping out around +3 or +4 by 15th level.

The N&S version really didn't conform to the definition of an "automatic" maneuver in the first place. However, I don't think it needs to be completely replaced, just renamed ("Leap Dodge," maybe?). I don't have a problem with adding the conventional Automatic Dodge to the game, though. Bonus progression should vary from style to style, as with other maneuvers.

Anyway, here's hoping there is a N&SS:UE coming to a store near you in the near future.

Palladium has made it clear in the past that there will be no new edition unless Erick Wujcik writes it, and I'm afraid that ship has sailed.