Mystic Ninja arts of Stealth

[Borast]

This might sound like an assinine question...but which system?

Rifts? HU? What?

[LostOne]

Say it with me: carpet bombing, area of effect attacks.

Nothing says stop stealthing around like booby traps, mines, hand grenades, rocket launchers (if the general area is known), etc.

I haven't read the actual abilities involved in a long time, but could someone throw dirt in the ninja's direction and make him visible (the dust would cling to the clothes) or throw a smoke grenade down and aim for the void in the smoke?

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I remember this question now. I didn't bother responding figuring the more Rifts experienced players would handle it. Anyways, there are a few things. As stated above, Area Effect abilities can work, but I'll focus on the abilities itself. I'll address them one at a time.

Art of Vanishing or Sun Shih K'an Chien Chih (Rifts Japan, page 195): First, the character needs a really good environment to pull this off. If it's really dark and lots of stuff to hide behind, sure, it's going to be tough. But in good light and no place for him to really move, even the level 6 character may only have a 50% chance of pulling this off. If he's lucky, good for him. If not, then he just left himself open for attack (trying counts as an action). Now, this ability will let the character hide and a chance to prowl up and attack from behind, but that also requires prowl checks and the character to leave himself open. Putting his back against a wall or moving into a corner will make it really hard for the ninja to sneak up.

ARt of Mystic Invisibility or Chi Zoshiki (Rifts Japan, page 196): First off, there is a saving throw. It's rather high though (19 or higher, and as best as I can see no bonuses). That's only a 10% chance of saving, but there's still a chance and this can help. Second, while invisible the ninja cannot attack or perform skills. This means the character must turn visible to attack (as you know). As a result, an alert character should be able to defend. Granted, most characters don't have eyes behind their heads so a back attack will still work well. Of course, having a friend watch your back (standing back to back) makes sneaking up behind them really, really, really, really hard. You can't attack what you don't have access to. And, just to clarify, the ninja turns visible, then attacks. It's not attack, hit, and then turn visible. A lone individual is still likely in serious trouble, but this is one of the reasons why team work should not be overlooked. Additionally, having just two people around forces the ninja to spend four times as much energy. Get 9 there and, in order to fool them all, the ninja is burning P.P.E. fast. He may (if really, really good) be able to get off a few shots and then go back invisible, but he'll be out soon so he better think really hard about what his plan will be. And, truth be told, if he comes up with a really good plan, I'd likely let him get away with it (good plans should be rewarded). Also keep in mind, this ability can only be used once per melee round. That means if they see pass their save or he attacks too early (or even too late, because cost is per melee round and they get a saving throw per melee round) that he won't be able to use the ability again until the next melee. The character must spend at least 1 minute to just get off 4 attacks this way, and spends 4 P.P.E. if one on one, 16 P.P.E. if 2-8, and 48 P.P.E. if 9 or more. During this minute the victims can call in reinforcements, make plans and actions such as standing back to back, getting against a wall, or other action to help negate remaining a victim.

Dealing with these two powers together: Hmm ... well, truth be told, I don't see them both being used together really being that hard. After all, there isn't much overlap. For the most part, it's one or the other (but it is a good back-up if one fails). Mystic Invisibility can be done standing in plain sight, so you don't have to hide for it to work, so Vanishing doesn't play much part here. And if you've successfully Vanished you don't much need the Invisibility (unless you go out in plain sight again in which case Vanishing is no longer relevant). While these moves may be killer in a one on one battle you get two or three NPC together and suddenly these moves are an aid, but not the win or loss of the battle on their own. My best recommendation, and I can't stress this in enough games, is to use teamwork. Though as said above, using Area Effect tactics can work as well. Hopefully some of this helped. If not, then my apologies for wasting your time. I'm not an expert on Rifts in general, so if I've missed some basic problem why this is more deadly than I've given it credit, please let me know and I'll try to see if I can address the problem. Please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

P.S. To Lost One's question, probably not. It's a mystic ability (To befog men's minds), so if you fail you pretty much failed to see the person, end of story.

[drewkitty ~..~]

origanle: Ninja and superspies: Use Dedicated MA with the Ninjitsue as the singuler MAF
China: Mystic china: same and NSS
Rifts: Rifts Japan: use the mystic ninja OCC
PW: Dimention book 2 PW: take the Oni Ninja OCC

These are the books that can be used to make a ninja with the the arts of stealth.

[Ahulane]

Art of Mystic Invisibility is basically like Invisibility but with the some small differences...you can move around all you want its just that the more people there are the more PPE you have to spend to cloud their minds and chances are that you will inevitably be detected.

Another thing is that it operates in the same fashion as Invisibility in that, if you take any action other than concentrating on being invisible then your power stops working. A plus side is that nothing can detect you what-so-ever if the target(s) saving throw(s) fail.

There's also nothing that states (in the book) you can only use this power once per melee, it just applies a cost every melee that its active. It doesn't take an attack to break invisibility either and would count as a surprise attack if an attack is made. The downside to this power is that if your in a room of 2 or more people and your trying to stealth kill them all without being seen then you need a minimum of 2 attacks to preform a kill (thats if you can strike a vital spot that is a guaranteed kill)...one to attack and another to recast your invisibility (thats if you started invisible otherwise you'd need 3). Basically if your going to be popping in and out of invisibility your going to sap your PPE wicked fast with this hit and run tactic (would work wonderfully outdoors as you could use terrain and art of vanishing to make yourself like a ghost.

One thing I did notice is that it stated that you look into your targets eyes and vanish...dunno if thats just some sort of personal...thing, used to intimidate or scare people or if actually required. Either way, this is a superior form of invisibility as far as detection goes but combat wise its better to just use lesser invisibility and hack away at people since they get wicked huge penalties while the spell is active.

[Prysus]

There's also nothing that states (in the book) you can only use this power once per melee, it just applies a cost every melee that its active.

Greetings and Salutations. Page 196, second column, under Saving Throw, last line ...

The character can try to turn invisible once per melee round.

Unless you think that means something else other than he can only use it "once per melee round." If so, what do you think it means? My book is a Second Printing, if by some chance that isn't in the First Printing. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Ahulane]

I stand corrected....but what do you think about the eye contact in the description? Do you think that would be just for effect or that it's actually required?

[Prysus]

I stand corrected....but what do you think about the eye contact in the description? Do you think that would be just for effect or that it's actually required?

Greetings and Salutations. Sorry, I was in the middle of running a game when I answered last night and didn't address this one. Well, I had given that some thought when I was making my first post (higher up, not last night). I had thought for a moment it might be a requirement as well, but I think in this case it is just an example and a scene for effect. It's to demonstrate that you don't have to hide and then turn invisible (showing it's not just not being seen, but mystical). The reason I say this is you can use it on multiple people, 9 or more is mentioned. I'm not sure how you would make eye contact with 9 people simultaneously. For that reason, I have to say it's just flavor text. Mind you, the book doesn't really say either way. If a G.M. made the stipulation you had to make eye contact (or at least be able to see their eyes even if not direct eye contact, so if they're all in front of you then you could still do it) I wouldn't argue it, but as a G.M. I would consider that flavor text.

Since I'm making this post though, I do have a second question. It your (Ahulane) mentioned it counts as a surprise attack. I'm not going to argue that, it's definitely a surprise. However, I am looking for clarification (out of curiosity). Are there special rules for a "surprise" attack? I know there are rules for "sneak attacks or attack from behind," but not sure if that's what you meant or if "surprise" has its own rules. I'm not trying to argue or nitpick, I'm asking for a reason (which I'll explain right now). Sneak attacks and attacks from behind require not being seen until after the hit. You don't see the person until the knife is already in your back, no chance to defend (by the book, and makes sense). Now, a surprise attack (in my opinion) would be an attack such as someone jumping out of a dark alley, from the bleachers above you, and attacking when you're not expecting it. From my opinion of reality (turned into game mechanics) the character making the surprise attack definitely has initiative, but the victim can defend (possibly a penalty, but still a chance). I can attest to that in reality (as can others who nearly got hurt when they jump out to scare me, which meant I almost instinctively simultaneous attacked, but that's not the point). This is my logic, that doesn't mean there isn't a game rule that says you still can't defend. Now I ask this as it applies to the power. In my first post in this thread, I mention two people standing back to back. Now, in this situation the invisible character will have trouble getting a spot that, when turning visible, can't be seen. If a surprise attack can't be defended, then this doesn't really matter. If it can, then they still have a chance to get out of the way. Of course, this also applies to how fast the invisible character turns visible. Is it attack/stab and then turn visible, or is it the moment the motion is started you turn visible, then hit? Again, not really stated in the book. I would probably go with the latter (turning visible before you hit, but already attacking).

Okay, um, I think I've started to ramble. Hopefully that made as much sense typed as it did in my head. Anyways, I think that about covers my other thoughts. Some of that is opinion so can't be answered "by the book," but I was just curious as to another opinion. For note, if it came off badly in this post or the last, my apologies. I'm not trying to pick on anyone, I'm just seeking clarity. Thank you for your time and patience all, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Ahulane]

GM guide P.41 "Anybody can attempt to dodge an attack if they know they are under attack and can see their attacker ...
most others are vulnerable to the first attack (the element of surprise) and cannot dodge or parry this very first blast directed at them."
This is repeated on P. 72. The Psionics "intuitive combat, 6th Sense and Psychic omni sight" seem to work on the same principle.
The Basic rulebook also states that "Successful Sneak Attack or Long Range Attack will always have initiative for that melee." (P.34) The next page says:"Attacks from the rear cannot be parried, dodged or entangled." & "By using a long-range weapon from a distance,
an attacker can perform an undetected, first strike. Provided the attacker is not seen, the defender automatically loses initiative and
may not dodge the first attack that melee round." Again on P.37 "The sneak attacker always has initiative, and the defender is not able to parry or dodge the sneak attack."

Answered for me right there...

In response to your elaboration on a surprise attack situation Prysus...if the surprise attack happened in the persons field of vision and depending on the distance needed to travel (if its a melee attack) then I would allow for a defensive parry or dodge (if its a ranged attack from a rifle or projectile weapon <not thrown> then there would be no real chance to defend, just hope they are a bad shot). Now this is based on both a persons instincts and twitch reflexes as well as your subconscious telling your instincts whats going on. Most people who are untrained in combat and don't have knowledge of weaponry will most likely stand still or just jump back slightly upon seeing someone burst from the shadows. People who are trained will instinctively guard themselves and subconsciously scan the individual for weapons if their somewhat obvious as well as try to recognize familiar patterns...in the case of a trained individual who is being surprise attacked, they would have less of a penalty than someone who isn't trained in the same situation...however an attack that comes out of sight can really, never be defended against IMO.

In the instance with the ninja using his invisibility, I say it breaks the moment he takes makes his attack. Not the moment he makes contact or what have you, but the basically when he initiates his attack....so if the ninja is planning on killing 9 people in a room and is to their backs, he would turn visible then attack in the same action, if someone happened to turn their head at the right time they may be able to alert the rest of the group...but the individual (unless he's a juicer or a super hero with super speed of some kind) will almost always be struck by the surprise attack.

So yeah, thats how I see it if any of the above makes sense. Frontal surprise attacks get to be defended against but with a penalty while rear ones can't.