Zimbabwe introduces $100 billion banknotes (and the CS)

[RainOfSteel]

In numerous debates regarding the CS economy, it has been suggested by numerous individuals that the CS can print however much money it wishes to pay for whatever it wants.

I present the below as a picture perfect example of what happens when a goverment attempts to produce money (or other forms of currency) in vast quantities.

Zimbabwe introduces $100 billion banknotes

HARARE, Zimbabwe (CNN) -- Zimbabwe's troubled central bank introduced $100 billion banknotes Saturday in a desperate bid to ease the recurrent cash shortages plaguing the inflation-ravaged economy.

The bills officially come into circulation Monday, although they were on the foreign currency dealers market Saturday.

As high as they are, though, the bills still aren't enough to buy a loaf of bread. They can buy only four oranges.

The new note is equal to just one U.S. dollar.

Once-prosperous Zimbabwe has seen an unprecedented economic meltdown since it gained independence in 1980, with the official inflation rate now at 2.2 million percent.

Gideon Gono, governor of the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe, said the new notes are for "the convenience of the banking public and corporate sector" in light of price hikes.

"The RBZ has noted with concern the unjustifiable and incessant general increases in prices of goods and services. It is therefore appealing to the business community to follow ethical business practices as well as take an interest in the plight of the general public," Gono said in a statement dated Friday.

Zimbabwe started issuing large bank notes in December, starting with denominations of $250,000.

In January, the government issued bills in denominations of $1 million, $5 million, and $10 million -- and in May, it issued bills from $25 million and $50 million up to $25 billion and $50 billion.

The new bills are actually bearer checks and have an expiration date of December 31. Zimbabwe has not had formal currency since the introduction of bearer checks as a temporary measure in 2003.

"The RBZ is fighting a losing battle," economist John Robertson said in Harare. "As long as the inflation remains high, cash shortages will persist. There is need to address the inflation by increasing production so that too goods do not [cost] a lot of money."

[taalismn]

Yeah, but the CS also owns the means of production, transport, and weaponry..."NO, there's no 'inflation'...Where did you hear such a thing? Are you consorting with enemies of Humanity? Maybe you ARE an enemy of Humanity? Well, are you? Didn't think so...just don't go repeating that crazy talk or bad things might happen...to you..."

[csbioborg]

The difference is the CS isn't actually printing money. That is a misinterpretation of what your reading. THey are issuing bonds fundamnetally. SO they have time to expand thier terioty get more resources etc in order to repay them. As we speak Tolkeen terroitory is being brought back into the fold of humanity. Mines are being reopened in the CS's name etc. Now the bonds that were issued to fund the war are being paid off with these new resources.

[RainOfSteel]

Yeah, but the CS also owns the means of production, transport, and weaponry..."NO, there's no 'inflation'...Where did you hear such a thing? Are you consorting with enemies of Humanity? Maybe you ARE an enemy of Humanity? Well, are you? Didn't think so...just don't go repeating that crazy talk or bad things might happen...to you..."

Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full!

[RainOfSteel]

The difference is the CS isn't actually printing money.

I will try and refrain from completely reopening the previous discussions of RMB, WB12, WB23, and the SoT series that show that* . . . by the listed BM prices (even discounting massively to take into account BM price hikes), the CS-CT couldn't possibly have paid for it's troops' salaries, equipment, and war machines; they didn't even have a sufficiently large able-bodied population to field the army that was sent to encircle and blockade SoT completely (much less have anything left over to defend its borders), or even a large enough population to absorb the listed casulaties without going into total melt-down.

I was originally hammering away at this as a general complaint about listed prices, stating that the listed prices were fundamentally wrong, but it eventually spiralled into discovering many other things.

Anyway, a few statements were made that the CS could simply print money to solve the problem.

I just thought this was a great example of what happens when the government prints vast sums of money (bearer checks or whatever) to keep cash in the economy.

--------------------------

* I should state that I and maybe a handful of others had this viewpoint, it was certainly not shared by all.

[csbioborg]

While you have a point with the writers fiat comment

How do you know a massive loan wasn't given in the way of bonds from COlombia and the NGR. Their respective wars are at a standstill so they could afford to do so.

Moreover for most of the war the CS were fighting old cyber knights which would have cost much les in terms of manpower and supplies to defeat. It was only later into the war did the cyber knights get instilled with the force (as is detailed in book four of TOlkeen or as I call it how the knights became jedi)


btw have you ever punched the numbers on e clips
mercs could not make money in rifts

[RainOfSteel]

How do you know a massive loan wasn't given in the way of bonds from COlombia and the NGR. Their respective wars are at a standstill so they could afford to do so.

The economies of the combined nations of Rifts North America were too small by many times.

You can invent all sorts of plausible explanations to make the economies work, I have done it myself and even liked my explanations, though others did not. My complaint is/was that I shouldn't have to.

Moreover for most of the war the CS were fighting old cyber knights which would have cost much les in terms of manpower and supplies to defeat.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

The CKs were certainly scrapping with the CS-CT's forces, but that was only a fraction of what was fighting on behalf of Tolkeen.

It was only later into the war did the cyber knights get instilled with the force (as is detailed in book four of TOlkeen or as I call it how the knights became jedi)

There is plenty of debate about what happened to the CKs, their new powers, etc.

btw have you ever punched the numbers on e clips
mercs could not make money in rifts

Yes.

Recharging E-clips.

Prices of equipment

[RainOfSteel]

It's also unrealistic to expect a few guys running a game company to be as widely knowledgeable as they'd have to be to make a completely accurate game world.

That's giving up on a lot of expectation of quality.

[csbioborg]

the comment about the old cyber knights was a joke.

[Chad]

I might be wrong here but,
doesn't the CS charge for things like rent, electricity, water and such? Not to mention they came(made) up with the universal credit. In effect making them their own bank. Iron Heart and Lone Star work to the end of the War Machine and whatever supplies they (CS) need, with MD weapons and armor ( along with- they have over half the United States to draw upon), they take. The Black Market, and pretty much anybody else, is doing nothing more than following the Coalition's lead.

[RainOfSteel]

the comment about the old cyber knights was a joke.

You should realize that there is a mass of pre-existing discussion that has gone around the table on the board, and your comment looked very much like you held one of the many, many variant opinions on the CK information presented in SoT.

While it is always true that an emoticon isn't always needed for sarcasm/jokes, unforunately in this case, your comments looked completely serious.

[csbioborg]

sorry I'll was going for dry humour.

No my opinion of the SOT and cyber knights is a lot of stuff was retcon becasue the image of the world is changing. I personally don't like some of them including the cyberknight revision. I am not going to try and make sense of it and accept it for what it is a fictional world that is being changed to fit the current view of the creators. It is hard to wonder why the CS to date hasn't used a single nuke thouhg in my game they have.

[RainOfSteel]

I might be wrong here but, doesn't the CS charge for things like rent, electricity, water and such?

I have always assumed as much about the CS-CT.

I would probably also agree for CS-IH.

As for CS-LS, to me, that's a different story. Lonestar seems more like the complex itself rather than a true state in a lot of ways. It was almost like it was an all-military or strongly-military-related outpost. One great multi-purpose factory the CS used to churn out dog boys, etc. (I need to go back and re-read WB13 one of these days, I haven't cracked it but for a few times for a quick glance since the mid-90s. My recollections, vague as they are, didn't seem to suggest any major city or population centers or anything like farming, ranching, or even mining; must re-read.)

Not to mention they came(made) up with the universal credit.

There are plenty of problems with the Universal Credit (UC).

The idea that it might be widely accepted, possibly.

Universally accepted, or especially in enemy lands, I most severely doubt it.

Electronically processed with cards everywhere or even anywhere outside the CS? Not a snowball's chance in the hot realms.

Rifts North American is a post-apocalyptic environment, or at least I like to see it that way. Readily available credsticks and credstick readers (using Shadowrun terminology) just doesn't fit my idea of how things work anywhere outside the very few major cities; not to mention that it would require secure communications networking between the CS and wherever the card readers were located; or that the CS had hugely secure banking outposts everywhere (and there is not a scrap of hint of such a thing, nor do I like the idea). For the UC, that would be the CS's own major cities.

In effect making them their own bank.

While there might be a national bank for each of the CS nations and a national cabinet-post type administration over them, or even a central bank, it was always my assumption that power families with iron ties to the Prosek's were the big bankers. Like Nazi Germany, after all, the CS is in many ways modeled upon it, deliberately so by the plans of Joseph himself. (Yes, yes, it's just an assumption on my part).

However, from the article in the OP, we can see that the central bank can be hip deep in the problems, being a part of them while simultaneously unable to solve them.

From a size standpoint, the CS of Chi-Town isn't that much different from Zimbabwe.

Also, the leader's both seem equally villainous, although the Proseks are portrayed as far more suave and professionally competent.

Iron Heart and Lone Star work to the end of the War Machine and whatever supplies they (CS) need, with MD weapons and armor [...], they take.

Take from who? Their own companies? If they don't pay the companies, how do the companies pay the workers? If the workers don't receive money, who buys the CS's commercial products beyond the soldiers? Only outsiders? The CS has the largest population by far, if not the CS, then the biggest market is knocked out in an instant.

They're certainly paying their soldiers, it says so in the OCC descriptions for CS troops. Would only the soldiers have money? That's going to make all the workers bitterly jealous. Would only soldiers be taxed? In short, they are most certainly paying everyone something, and it's going to have to be beyond a pittance because the CS needs a lot of tax revenue.

No salaries earned by anyone = citizens and soldiers buying nothing because everything is handed to them = a workforce and military with little incentive to work and fight but fear (which ensures horrifyingly bad morale) = the UC is not accepted by anyone in the CS because no one can buy anything = outside parties are unable to use the UC to obtain goods from the CS . . . wait that can't be right . . . the UC only has value outside the CS . . . how, then, if it has no acceptability in the CS? Well, we all know the UC is accepted in the CS so it goes without saying that all workers and soldiers of the CS get paid something.

[...] ( along with- they have over half the United States to draw upon) [...].

The CS may be spread out over a large territory, but they do not control half the US territory even by the published maps, they do not even control (as I see it) all of the territory that is listed. (It's a dangerous world out there, and nobody, not even the CS has absolute control of their lands except in the most densely populated areas, not when there are Rifts that horrors pour out of scattered across the lands. But that's just me.)

[RainOfSteel]

sorry I'll was going for dry humour.

Being a favorite humor type of mine, I understand.

I am not going to try and make sense of it and accept it for what it is a fictional world that is being changed to fit the current view of the creators.

I can accept a retcon (no, really, I can), and a retcon a lot of the WB11 and SoT information was.

The problem is that the retcon was . . . ahem . . . shaky.

There are huge plot holes in the descriptions of the background story, things that would have solved with slight additional explanations, clarifications, and just a little more thought before stating things like there are millions of empty SAMAS power suits in CS possession sitting around in storage (and similar things).

It is hard to wonder why the CS to date hasn't used a single nuke thouhg in my game they have.

I have been wondering since I read the original main rule book in the week after I bought it right after it came out.

However SoT1 corrected this. P.9 describes the CS firing a volley of low-yield nuclear warheads at Tolkeen. The missiles either never made it, or their explosions were deflected by the city's immense force field, or the damage caused (somehow, magic no doubt) was minimal*. (No mention of the radioactive fallout that would have blanketed the area, of course.)

Many missile types read "nuclear" in Robotech and Rifts, but I've always gotten the feeling they weren't even pocket 1 kiloton nukes.

-------------

* Without researching it, I seem to recall that Tolkeen had some ability to regenerate city damage.

[csbioborg]

ya but you would just need one good SF team to sneak in and place a nuke close to tolkeen

I agree the retcon could have been better but at least they didn't to a complete overhaul so that the old books couldn't be used (although admittedly they know they don't have the finaces to publish a whole rewrite of the world) unlike other games that have retconed

[Chad]

As for CS-LS, to me, that's a different story. Lonestar seems more like the complex itself rather than a true state in a lot of ways. It was almost like it was an all-military or strongly-military-related outpost. One great multi-purpose factory the CS used to churn out dog boys, etc. (I need to go back and re-read WB13 one of these days, I haven't cracked it but for a few times for a quick glance since the mid-90s. My recollections, vague as they are, didn't seem to suggest any major city or population centers or anything like farming, ranching, or even mining; must re-read.)

mainly on pg. 13-15

Universally accepted, or especially in enemy lands, I most severely doubt it.

It was my understanding, CS gave birth to the UC. Before that, there was no form of currency?

There are plenty of problems with the Universal Credit (UC).

agree. But I can still see how it would make sense in a Palladium sort of way.

Rifts North American is a post-apocalyptic environment, or at least I like to see it that way. Readily available credsticks and credstick readers (using Shadowrun terminology) just doesn't fit my idea of how things work anywhere outside the very few major cities; not to mention that it would require secure communications networking between the CS and wherever the card readers were located; or that the CS had hugely secure banking outposts everywhere (and there is not a scrap of hint of such a thing, nor do I like the idea). For the UC, that would be the CS's own major cities.

IMO, it didn't for a while, and still might not in certain isolated regions. But it has been a century or so, and by now should be the accepted form of currency.
When one thinks about it the American dollar doesn't have much value. For the most part, accepted on faith.
Obviously there is no way to identify a transaction in 'real' time when outside the fortress cities. I would think this would lead to the question of counterfeiting.
However, given that this is the most widely used form of currency and backed by the most powerful empire on the continent, I would not see that many turning it down. 'Course, exceptions to every rule.

However, from the article in the OP, we can see that the central bank can be hip deep in the problems, being a part of them while simultaneously unable to solve them.

I don't see the similarity.
Zimbabwe beats, rapes, and kills it's own people- The CS is trying to save humanity from extinction.
Zimbabwe keeps all it's money for the top rulers- The CS shares it's technology and comfort with it's people.
Zimbabwe has been sanctioned by the world powers- The CS (in America) is the world power.
The only thing I can see they have in common is that both of their leaders are tyrants. Difference is Prosek isn't stupid and cares about his people. Not to mention, Karl has yet to run off the top people of his nation like the leader of Zimbabwe.

Chad wrote:
Iron Heart and Lone Star work to the end of the War Machine and whatever supplies they (CS) need, with MD weapons and armor [...], they take.

Take from who?

I was referring to raw supplies and resources.
And with their power, I imagine whoever they want.

No salaries earned by anyone = citizens and soldiers buying nothing because everything is handed to them = a workforce and military with little incentive to work and fight but fear (which ensures horrifyingly bad morale) = the UC is not accepted by anyone in the CS because no one can buy anything = outside parties are unable to use the UC to obtain goods from the CS . . . wait that can't be right . . . the UC only has value outside the CS . . . how, then, if it has no acceptability in the CS? Well, we all know the UC is accepted in the CS so it goes without saying that all workers and soldiers of the CS get paid something.

This is mostly based on assumptions where one leads to another, leads to another, etc.
The UC is accepted on Phase World (5:1, I think), so it has to be accepted outside the fortress cities.

Chad wrote:
[...] ( along with- they have over half the United States to draw upon) [...].

The CS may be spread out over a large territory, but they do not control half the US territory even by the published maps, they do not even control (as I see it) all of the territory that is listed. (It's a dangerous world out there, and nobody, not even the CS has absolute control of their lands except in the most densely populated areas, not when there are Rifts that horrors pour out of scattered across the lands. But that's just me.)

Again, I was referring to resources and raw materials- not ownership or territory controlled.
Should've explained myself better, sorry.

[Talavar]

What raw materials do people think are going to be left in North America in Rifts' timeline, when there aren't that many around now? Unless MD technology is made of wood, which would grow back, the area of North America that is strongly held by the CS is pretty tapped out in terms of natural resources/raw materials. A lot of that land is good farm land (particularly with the post-apocalyptic dark age to lie fallow), but that's about it.

The American dollar is taken on faith because the American government guarantees it. The American government can guarantee it, because it and other American institutions have interactions, including currency transfers, with other countries, and an international system of banking that was developed over hundreds of years.

The universal credit doesn't really work because the CS doesn't have any official diplomatic contact with most of the nearby nation-states. When you buy something with universal credits in Lazlo, New Lazlo, Tolkeen (playing prior to SoT) or Atlantis, something that is apparently emminently possible, how do their merchants redeem the value of those universal credits? They only have symbolic value, a value that is guaranteed by a nation that basically refuses to acknowledge they exist. If I bank in Lazlo, how does the CS have any involvement with that financial transaction, to keep track of the funds, or tell who is transfering them to who, and in what amount? If someone has some sort of counterfeiting scheme in a CS hostile nation, how does anyone tell if the credits are any good or not?

Realistically, every nation-state in Rifts would have its own form of currency, with official exchange rates only possible between nations with some form of diplomatic relations. An unofficial exchange rate would probably exist, run by the black market, but the fees involved would be rather high. Most of those currencies wouldn't be symbolic, like paper money or electronic credits, but would have real value to those involved in the transactions - gold, silver, etc. The CS might still have credits, but they'd be about it. Rural and small communities would barter goods or services - though the books do say that occurs in the game as it is.

[csbioborg]

ya but you would just need one good SF team to sneak in and place a nuke close to tolkeen

I agree the retcon could have been better but at least they didn't to a complete overhaul so that the old books couldn't be used (although admittedly they know they don't have the finaces to publish a whole rewrite of the world) unlike other games that have retconed

Maybe I'm missing something here. What was reconned?

~RS

its an expression for changing preexsiting game facts. For example Game company X first edtion book says blackacre is in the northern part of the fictious state of colombia. Now writers of Game company X think that the game would work better if blackacre was in the southern part of the fictious state of colombia and always had been.

edit found that it is a real word on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon
Retroactive continuity is the deliberate changing of previously established facts in a work of serial fiction.[1] The change is informally referred to as a "retcon," and producing a retcon is called "retconning".

Retcons are common in comic books, especially those of large, long-established publishing houses such as Marvel Comics and DC Comics, because of the lengthy history of many series and the number of independent authors contributing to their development. Retconning also occurs in soap operas, movie sequels, professional wrestling, video games, radio series, series of novels, and any other type of episodic fiction. It is also used in roleplaying, when the game master feels it necessary to maintain consistency in the story or to fix significant mistakes that occurred during play, often under the synonymous (in this context) term "reality shift". Retconning also resembles the real-life occurrence of historical revisionism, where newly discovered information or a reinterpretation of existing information inspires the rewriting of histories.

[Chad]

What raw materials do people think are going to be left in North America in Rifts' timeline, when there aren't that many around now? Unless MD technology is made of wood, which would grow back, the area of North America that is strongly held by the CS is pretty tapped out in terms of natural resources/raw materials. A lot of that land is good farm land (particularly with the post-apocalyptic dark age to lie fallow), but that's about it.

There are alot of resources in America that we are not allowed to tap, but that's another...(political)
Ruins, whatever has come through the Rifts, there is 300 years to work with.

[The American dollar is taken on faith because the American government guarantees it. The American government can guarantee it, because it and other American institutions have interactions, including currency transfers, with other countries, and an international system of banking that was developed over hundreds of years./quote]
Point? Pretty much, the same is true with the Coalition.

The universal credit doesn't really work because the CS doesn't have any official diplomatic contact with most of the nearby nation-states. When you buy something with universal credits in Lazlo, New Lazlo, Tolkeen (playing prior to SoT) or Atlantis, something that is apparently emminently possible, how do their merchants redeem the value of those universal credits? They only have symbolic value, a value that is guaranteed by a nation that basically refuses to acknowledge they exist. If I bank in Lazlo, how does the CS have any involvement with that financial transaction, to keep track of the funds, or tell who is transfering them to who, and in what amount?
If someone has some sort of counterfeiting scheme in a CS hostile nation, how does anyone tell if the credits are any good or not?
Realistically, every nation-state in Rifts would have its own form of currency, with official exchange rates only possible between nations with some form of diplomatic relations. An unofficial exchange rate would probably exist, run by the black market, but the fees involved would be rather high. Most of those currencies wouldn't be symbolic, like paper money or electronic credits, but would have real value to those involved in the transactions - gold, silver, etc. The CS might still have credits, but they'd be about it. Rural and small communities would barter goods or services - though the books do say that occurs in the game as it is.

Instead of writing down a whole list of things- see WB 14 New West, pg. 17-19. It answers most of this.

[Mack]

Basic Rule of Economics: Creating more currency (be it cash or Universal Credits) creates inflation.

Basic Rule of Rifts: Thinking about Economics and Rifts will make you go cross-eyed.

[RainOfSteel]

ya but you would just need one good SF team to sneak in and place a nuke close to tolkeen

Same goes for Tolkeen or the City of Brass, or any other enemy of the CS, going both ways.

Best assumptions:

-- Tolkeen's Poor Yorick informed the city of inbound nukes carried by stealth. (It doesn't mind seeing the city go down, but is willing to protect itself.)
-- The CS has the equivalent of some NEST teams and fixed sensors surrounding the approaches to their cities as well as the city gates. (Magic-cloaked nukes get picked up by the dog boys as a strech of their sensory powers.)

I agree the retcon could have been better but at least they didn't to a complete overhaul so that the old books couldn't be used (although admittedly they know they don't have the finaces to publish a whole rewrite of the world) unlike other games that have retconed

For me the retcon seemed to be in the vastly increased size of the CS's military force and the degree to which it could deploy huge military forces are great distances in a land without roads, and various other things, like Holme's force making it through the Xiticix hive alive at all, operating out of supply, Tolkeen's forces deserting after they'd won a battle, Tolkeen's permanent internal city defenders giving up their jobs and Holme's sweeping in, the dragons turning coward and running away (not to mention that the whole presence of lots of dragons going against everything that had been written about dragons to begin with).

Those aren't things that make the previous books unusable, but I do not believe that if better explanations had been given, and the suspenders of disbelief hadn't been snapped back in my face so often, that this also wouldn't have made the previous books unusable.

[RainOfSteel]

mainly on pg. 13-15

Thank you. I just glanced at that and relearned the reason I haven't re-read the book recently, it was stuck in a basement in a cardboard box for several years and has a deep musty odor that practically knocks me out.

However, what I glanced over doesn't give me the impression of anything more than scattered small CS military bases (Chi-Town state bases, effectively). Lonestar seems hardly more than a sattelite of Chi-Town, albeit an important one.

It was my understanding, CS gave birth to the UC. Before that, there was no form of currency?

Nothing is said about the matter as far as I know. I think we can assume there was something, perhaps charged e-clips were the currency of the world? Small and worth a lot!

IMO, it didn't for a while, and still might not in certain isolated regions. But it has been a century or so, and by now should be the accepted form of currency.

IMO it wouldn't be accepted in Tolkeen or Lazlo at all, except under the table and out of sight. Using it in the City of Brass might get you killed by some unsympathetic demon who hates the CS.

When one thinks about it the American dollar doesn't have much value. For the most part, accepted on faith.

Thanks to Iran's counterfeiting operations, it isn't accepted in many places.

Thanks to the falling dollar, it pretty much isn't accepted in even more places now.

But you're right about the American dollar having value solely based on the faith in the currency, but then the Euro and virtually all other modern currencies are the same.

Obviously there is no way to identify a transaction in 'real' time when outside the fortress cities. I would think this would lead to the question of counterfeiting.

Oh yes, oh yes.

However, given that this is the most widely used form of currency and backed by the most powerful empire on the continent, I would not see that many turning it down.

If we posit very difficult to counterfeit physical US cash, then yes to a limited degree.

If we posit electronic cash on the frontier, there will be rampant theft left and right.

People who accepted e-UC in the outback are going to make it to a major city and find that everything they have is worthless.

Zimbabwe beats, rapes, and kills it's own people

So does the CS.

The CS is trying to save humanity from extinction.

So the CS presents with one hand with doing entirely different things with the other.


Karl Prosek's personal goal is one of gaining absolute power for himself at any cost no matter who is hurt save perhaps his son (and maybe not even that). His Diabolical alignment doesn't fit in with any type of honorable attempt at anything. Saving humanity is a sham as far as he's really concerned while he spouts his desire to do so on a regular basis.

Zimbabwe keeps all it's money for the top rulers- The CS shares it's technology and comfort with it's people.

Karl, Joseph, and friends live in the lap of luxury and security while the CS's citizens live in the bottom levels of Chi-Town where life may well not be much better than the burbs (or so the art in the RMB has suggested to me since Rifts was first published). There is some art and text that suggests a middle-class, but even they live far below the top ranks.

As far as I can see, Zimbabwe is very similar to the CS, very similar indeed.

Difference is Prosek isn't stupid and cares about his people.

Karl isn't stupid, yes.

Cares about his people? No.

Check out the Diabolical alignment description.

Take from who?

I was referring to raw supplies and resources.
And with their power, I imagine whoever they want.

Ok, I see that. The CS takes whatever raw resources it wants on the land it controls.

I'll stipulate to that, no problem.

If you look at the areas occupied and controlled by the CS, and look at the natural resources located there, and look at what has already been extracted to date in the RW, and project what will be extracted through the approximate date of the Apocalypse, then you begin to get a good idea of how little is left for the CS to extract and use (if anything).

The CS will need a large amount of resources, and to make all the super high-tech gear they'll need lots of materials that simply aren't found in North America.

I personal hand-wave this away by using the Apocalypse itself, when things went bottoms-up, masses of lands were dimensionally shifted in time and between universes, and a lot of exploitable resources wound up in North American that wern't there before.

This is mostly based on assumptions where one leads to another, leads to another, etc.

I was attempting to demonstrate that the CS does pay its citizens and that there is a cash based economy in the nation, people are paid, they consume, they pay taxes, the CS government functions based on those taxes, it can only build and man a military based on those economic factors . . . and if the government tries to play fast and lose with the nation's money to pay for things, then the economy will fall into ruin in a short time.

The UC is accepted on Phase World (5:1, I think), so it has to be accepted outside the fortress cities.

I agree that the UC does have acceptability beyond the CS.

I also believe the UC has a physical cash component that is a nanotech semi-cloth/paper construct that anyone without a personal nanotech fabrication unit and the correct nanotech product production plans couldn't hope to counterfeit perfectly, and that the CS sells counterfeit identification wands widely and cheaply (enough for any adventurer to have one). I also believe there are bills up through 100,000 UC

IMO the UC is accepted on Phase World primarily because it sells to travellers making their way to Rifts Earth North America for whatever purpose. They would need local currency and would buy it up from currency exchangers. This would include businesses like the Naruni who need the cash to break into the local economic world more smoothly.

Multi-dimensional currency exchange is a major feature of Phase World. The low exchange rate for the UC is based on the large risk assumed by the exchanger that anyone will ever come by needing it, or that anyone can be found willing to cart it to its home dimension to purchase something (valuable lightweight materials like magic-quality gems, etc.) and return with the goods for a cut of the total. Oh, wait, more adventure fodder!

[RainOfSteel]

Maybe I'm missing something here. What was reconned?

The size and equipment of the CS armed forces and their ability to deploy over long distances and in numbers so huge that a significant fraction of population of the nation was out of the country for quite a while.

Remember, the CS-CT sent an entire army up to CS-FQ, operating well over a thousand miles away, across unknown dangers in land filled with supernatural horrors while at the same time they had Tolkeen completely encircled and blockaded.

Nothing in the RMB or anything much even in WB11 really made me suspect such a thing. I always thought they never had more than a handful of Death's Heads (like 12, maybe) and the new flyers in WB11, the transport (maybe another 12) and the Firestorm (like 2, and it hurt their other production to build the ridiculous things). Not to mention having enough spare production to have built 3,000,000 SAMAS somewhere along the way along with 1,000,000 Skelebots!

SoT comes along and apparently they have many hundreds of Death's Heads and further many hundreds of transports to supply all of these far flung operations by air; and also they have all-new equipment on the ground, too, for the entire army, apparently.

[The Beast]

It was my understanding, CS gave birth to the UC. Before that, there was no form of currency?

I thought the old empires created UC during the Golden Age.

[Chad]

I thought the CS based it's economics off of the Golden Age.

[RainOfSteel]

What raw materials do people think are going to be left in North America in Rifts' timeline, when there aren't that many around now? Unless MD technology is made of wood, which would grow back, the area of North America that is strongly held by the CS is pretty tapped out in terms of natural resources/raw materials. A lot of that land is good farm land (particularly with the post-apocalyptic dark age to lie fallow), but that's about it.

A problem I have long recognized, and long ago hand-waved away as noted in my post further above.

I just wish something about this was written into the game's background.

Realistically, every nation-state in Rifts would have its own form of currency [...]

Go, go, go!

[Chad]

Chad wrote:
Zimbabwe beats, rapes, and kills it's own people


So does the CS.

Where in canon?

Chad wrote:
Difference is Prosek isn't stupid and cares about his people.

Karl Prosek's personal goal is one of gaining absolute power for himself at any cost no matter who is hurt save perhaps his son (and maybe not even that). His Diabolical alignment doesn't fit in with any type of honorable attempt at anything. Saving humanity is a sham as far as he's really concerned while he spouts his desire to do so on a regular basis.
Karl isn't stupid, yes.

Cares about his people? No.

Check out the Diabolical alignment description

Check out Final Siege pg.9, RUE pg. 229

Karl, Joseph, and friends live in the lap of luxury and security while the CS's citizens live in the bottom levels of Chi-Town where life may well not be much better than the burbs

But it is better, otherwise nobody would be trying to get in.

<sigh> This seems to be more or less turning into a 'How do you view the Coalition' debate.

Zimbabwe has nothing in common with the CS. The CS is not a 3rd. rate power that brutalizes and chases it's own people out of it's country. Karl's power base is determined by his people. It (his power base) is essential that his people are happy and content. The sick are taken care of, the injured treated (that's why they don't care about such things as literacy).
That is why others want to join. The CS is not being sanctioned by the rest of the world (as stated earlier, they don't even recognize some other nations). They control 73% of all trade on the continent. The UC has no choice but to be accepted in 'most' places.
Zimbabwe has no 'resources' to back up their currency- No stability of government/ Sick (mostly AIDS) around every corner/ a population that keeps increasing without any medical support/ An embargo by the world powers (food, clothes, etc.) and hardly any self-sufficiency whatsoever.

I was attempting to demonstrate that the CS does pay its citizens and that there is a cash based economy in the nation, people are paid, they consume, they pay taxes, the CS government functions based on those taxes, it can only build and man a military based on those economic factors . . . and if the government tries to play fast and lose with the nation's money to pay for things, then the economy will fall into ruin in a short time.

True, if that is the case. I don't see a population that exists to play as fast and loose as what your referring to.
Again, the CS is the economy in America. Would a UC have any value in BF Egypt? Probably not. However, if one wants to do business in America, it is a necessity. All other city-states have adapted to or patterened their economy after the CS. Why?- Because it works.
There is no one for the CS to fall in debt to except themselves. The Coalition falling in debt to itself is simply a larger version of an individual falling in debt to oneself- How can you?

[Temporalmage]

The CS owns pretty much everything. They own the farms that crops and livestock grow on, they own the textile plants that make clothing, they own the manufaturing factorys that crank out everything from plastic silverware to computers to Death Head Transports; and everything in between. They pay thier citizens to work in these facilities, and then set the prices thier citizens have to pay to get the stuff they make. Thier kinda like a super-Walmart. Since the CS sets the prices, every one else has to set thier prices for similar stuff at the same range, or be beaten out in price wars. Yet the CS does not have to pay taxes (they are the government), they don't have to show profits on shipping (they own the vehicles), they don't have to profit off of their mining operations, factories, or even the final products (they own it all and every citizen works for them)!
This means that when compaired to any other government in North America (and most of the world of Rifts) the CS only has to pay for peaples labors. They don't buy the land they use (for mines or farming or grazing), they take it; so in essence it cost them nothing. None of the mines or factories or farms or manufaturing facilities have to show a profit, they simply have to break even at the end of the proccess when the final product, no matter what it is, is ready for consumer purchase. So while the CS could sell a widget to an ally for 40,000 credits; it only cost the CS 3000 to make it. Probably even less. While other manufacturing companys, such as Northern Gun; or other governments, such as Lazlo; would have to pay 20,000 credits to make the same widget. Why would it cost them so much more? The mine has to make a profit, the shipping company has to profit, the refinery has to profit, the factory has to profit, the shipping company for the finished product has to profit, the sales peaple for the final product has to profit; and that's not including the several security companys for the mine, 2 shipping company's, refinery, factory, and retail store. That's alot of companys that have to profit off of one widget. Yet the CS already has the biggest security force on the contenent, and only has to show a profit large enough to pay for such things as war, expansion, R&D, exploration, and other items not covered under normal cost of running a government that owns every aspect of thier citizens consumer needs/ wants. The CS has no need to "make" money. And if they did it would be a simple matter of creating artificial shortages and raising prices for specific items.

(I'm sorry, but due to the Tolkeen War beef, pork, and chickens from the CS states of Iowa and missouri have been tainted by those pesky demon loving mages. All shipments had to be slaughtered and incinerated to keep the shapeshifting demons out of our beloved cities. As each one has to be individually checked and rechecked by ISS before intering the city, production has slowed to a crawl, which means the price has gone up 50%. But you'd better buy your meat today, cause I heard that the price was going to go up by over 300% over the next 6 weeks!!)
For anyone the drives a vehicle we're all familiar with prices going up for fuel. Now imagine if the government actually owned all the fuel facilities: from the well's to the pumps; and didn't really NEED to profit off of any of it, yet did to pay for war.

[Jefffar]

If one is looking to a real world economic example for the CS I'd sugest the Soviet Union and similarly planned economies.

[The Beast]

thre was a Rifter article saying the Cs is now expanding into Low orbit Radio surveillance and as such, have built a fleet of aerial bots to facilitiate Laser/Encrytped communications. The Nonsense I read in the article is how the author claimed it was uncrackable, Etc , BULL CRAP.
.... I mean seriously, All it takes is two spells and that **** is done with...

And what two spells would that be?

[Mack]

The CS owns pretty much everything. They own the farms that crops and livestock grow on, they own the textile plants that make clothing, they own the manufaturing factorys that crank out everything from plastic silverware to computers to Death Head Transports; and everything in between.

Do you have a canon reference for that?

[RainOfSteel]

Zimbabwe beats, rapes, and kills it's own people

So does the CS.

Where in canon?

Karl Prosek's regime has been beating or killing anyone in the CS who says anything negative about him or the CS for quite some time.

What do you think happened to all the magic users living in the CS? That they all just got to peacefully leave?

SB1 p.17 "As a result, it is easy to hate and destroy, or use and abuse, such a terrible enemy [...]"

Don't think the officer's conference in MercTown was only ever directed at population centers outside the CS.

As for rape . . . no specific examples offhand, but in a nation filled with hate mongers who have absolute power over others, and some of whom are Diabolically aligned, I find it more than likely that it has happened.

Zimbabwe has nothing in common with the CS. The CS is not a 3rd. rate power that brutalizes and chases it's own people out of it's country.

Yes it does.

Anyone who disagrees with the CS is either going to face exile at best, or torture and execution at worst.

Karl's power base is determined by his people.

Karl's power is as firmly entrenched as Saddam Hussein's was. He has made a practice, even a science, out of making sure of it.

WB11 p.215 "Karl Prosek is an evil megalomanic whose every action is motivated by his lust for power, fame, and glory. He has manipulated the humans of hte Coalition States for years and has laid the frame work for his empire with care and precision."

The nation is unlikely to be able to root him out on its own.

It (his power base) is essential that his people are happy and content.

I guess it depends on what happy and content mean in this context.

If it refers to a mass of people who know little other than the pap of lies fed to them by the Proseks, who live fully repressed lives, who can say nothing and had better not think anything wrong lest they make a mistake, who spy on each other as much as the people in modern North Korea, and for whom fear of the CS's own government may be as great as their fear of the horrors beyond the walls of the cities, then they're happy.

If it refers to people who can dare to dream, live how they want, say what they wish, listen to the music they like, craft the art in their souls into objects of delight, and learn and speak what they want, then no, they aren't happy.

The sick are taken care of, the injured treated (that's why they don't care about such things as literacy).

You did check the casualty figures from SoT, right?

For those living in Chi-Town after the SoT war, most would personally know someone who had died, and as they lived and worked each day, it would be virtually impossible to avoid running into injury victims. Cybernetics and bionics exist, but the cost to deploy systems for all victims would be as staggering as the cost of the war itself.

Not to mention the psychological cost to the war veterans. Rifts comes with insanity tables built into the core rules, and you can believe there would be plenty of victims.

The unavoidable conclusion is that Chi-Town is swamped with injured soldiers from the war. I most sincerely doubt it was able to take care of them all or provide any kind of meaningful post-care support for any of them.

Also, the CS-CT most certainly does not care for all of its citizen's health needs.

You should check RMB p.140, where it describes the lower levels of Chi-Town.

That is why others want to join. The CS is not being sanctioned by the rest of the world (as stated earlier, they don't even recognize some other nations).

Just Tolkeen, the Cyber Knights, Lazlo, New Lazlo . . . wait, that would be the rest of the world that isn't in the grips of power-mad Diabolical tyrants. (Ok, Tolkeen's leader went down the tubes in cannon . . . if anyone in Tolkeen got what they deserved, it was him; but he didn't started that way.)

They control 73% of all trade on the continent.

Is that stated somewhere? (I'm not saying it isn't, I just can't recall.)

The UC has no choice but to be accepted in 'most' places.

Did you mean that people everywhere have no choice but to accept it?

I don't agree with that at all.

True, if that is the case. I don't see a population that exists to play as fast and loose as what your referring to.

I don't understand about "I don't see a population that exists to play as fast and loose".

Populations? Existing to play as fast and loose?

It is not the population I was referring to.

It is the simple fact that as far as I can tell, the CS wouldn't be able to make payroll for its army, much less buy anything for them.

Again, the CS is the economy in America.

It is the largest, but it is not the only one.

There is no one for the CS to fall in debt to except themselves.

I would admit that there are banks operating in the CS and that the CS goverment could borrow from them and there would be nothing those banks could do if Karl Prosek didn't want to pay them back.

However, if he didn't pay them back, those banks would go out of business.

If he printed money (electronic money in this case, being inside the CS system) just to pay of fthe debt, and then handed it over, that would cause inflation, making it harder to pay the troops and equip and arm them.

In any event, the size of those banks and the amounts that they could loan to the CS goverment would be very limited.

There is absolutely no way the CS could float its way through the SoT on debtor spending as the USA has been doing for years.

The bond-issuing idea to help pay has problems, too, in that for the CS to even meet annual payroll for its troops it is going to be taxing its population to the hilts, they're not going to have any money left over for bonds.

The entire GDP of CS-CT couldn't pay for the stated equipment and weapons, not even by a fraction.

Karl Prosek's (and his coterie's) lifestyle, plus the CS-CT government operations, and stuff like medical care for citizens, that doesn't even enter the picture.

Unless, of course, we cut the numbers for the armies on both sides of the conflict down substantially . . . a move back to the smaller post-apocalyptic milieu where the CS-CT's economy actually can pay for things and I don't get whiplash from my suspenders getting snapped back in my face.

The Coalition falling in debt to itself is simply a larger version of an individual falling in debt to oneself- How can you?

Anyone can maintain multiple accounts and can loan themselves money from one account to another and even establish interest rates, etc.

Charging yourself interest would be silly, though.

Trying to compare the CS-CT's financial operations to an individual's does not work.

Trying to compare the CS-CT's financial capabilities to the USA's also does not work.

The CS-CT doesn't have a 30th of the USA's population and, although only scraps were ever mentioned, I cannot imagine that the CS-CT's industry is so vast that it could arm and equip a 1,000,000 man army, or produce all of the vehicles implied by the various SoT story elements.

Stating you can't fall into debt to yourself has nothing to do with anything. It's true, but since you also can't pay for anything you don't have money for, and since you can't fall into debt because you can't borrow, the only thing you can do is print money, which causes ruinous inflation.

[RainOfSteel]

If one is looking to a real world economic example for the CS I'd sugest the Soviet Union and similarly planned economies.

For a RW example I would suggest that of Nazi Germany, as the CS is largely modeled after them in many ways.

[RainOfSteel]

The CS owns pretty much everything. They own the farms that crops and livestock grow on, they own the textile plants that make clothing, they own the manufaturing factorys that crank out everything from plastic silverware to computers to Death Head Transports; and everything in between.

I don't see anything like that in any of the books.

They pay thier citizens to work in these facilities, and then set the prices thier citizens have to pay to get the stuff they make. Thier kinda like a super-Walmart. Since the CS sets the prices, every one else has to set thier prices for similar stuff at the same range, or be beaten out in price wars.

You're describing the command economy of the USSR. A failure for a long, long list of reasons.

Besides, Karl appears to have spent his time admiring Hitler, not Stalin.

Yet the CS does not have to pay taxes (they are the government)

Most governements don't. I'm not sure what point is being made here.

, they don't have to show profits on shipping (they own the vehicles), they don't have to profit off of their mining operations, factories, or even the final products

The CS states aren't running any businesses that I can recall.

(they own it all and every citizen works for them)!

I have located no indication in the books that this would be true.

In fact, from RMB onward, they have pointed the other way.

This means that when compaired to any other government in North America (and most of the world of Rifts) the CS only has to pay for peaples labors.

Could you point to any nation on Earth that has ever functioned under this system productively in a manner that didn't hurt itself more than it benefited it?

(The final years of Nazi Germany come to mind, they had awfully impressive production figures in some areas, but their manpower pool had a large fraction of slave labor that was often worked to death; though in the end their production capabilities were crippled by key shortages; still, the slave pool would have run out and that would have hit them very, very hard. Not to mention being unspeakably evil, let's not forget that little part.)

They don't buy the land they use (for mines or farming or grazing), they take it; so in essence it cost them nothing. None of the mines or factories or farms or manufaturing facilities have to show a profit, they simply have to break even at the end of the proccess when the final product,

Except that Karl Prosek and his coterie are greedy and power mad?

I can image that if they heard any subordinate talking about not making a profit, that subordinate would become dog boy meat.

[csbioborg]

have you considered automated systems in a society that can create skelbots would be make produiction much more efficent than they are in today's society

[runebeo]

Was taxes every mentioned for people living in the fortified CS cities. Not many nations in history have not collect taxes. "Sure you can write off your E-Clips as an expense, but that cyber-armor and robotic eye of yours is a luxury."

[Talavar]

What raw materials do people think are going to be left in North America in Rifts' timeline, when there aren't that many around now? Unless MD technology is made of wood, which would grow back, the area of North America that is strongly held by the CS is pretty tapped out in terms of natural resources/raw materials. A lot of that land is good farm land (particularly with the post-apocalyptic dark age to lie fallow), but that's about it.

There are alot of resources in America that we are not allowed to tap, but that's another...(political)
Ruins, whatever has come through the Rifts, there is 300 years to work with.

[The American dollar is taken on faith because the American government guarantees it. The American government can guarantee it, because it and other American institutions have interactions, including currency transfers, with other countries, and an international system of banking that was developed over hundreds of years.

Point? Pretty much, the same is true with the Coalition.

Instead of writing down a whole list of things- see WB 14 New West, pg. 17-19. It answers most of this.

My point is that it isn't true of the CS at all. The CS has official relations with a handful of its neighbours - the NG, Manistique Imperium, and Triax. Far more nations have no contact with the CS at all. There are no international banks, no system for tracking finances or transfering finances between these nations. Buying something in Lazlo with CS universal credits should be about as easy as buying something in Great Britain with Nazi krugerands during World War II. But krugerands were gold - they had inherent value in Great Britain, even if those 2 nations were at war. Universal credits have no inherent value, so why would anyone in Lazlo want them? Since they're essentially valueless in Lazlo, they'd only be any good if Lazlo's government could exchange them with the CS for currency or items they do value - which they can't.

New West has a terrible explanation that is full of wholes for this problem. The Black Market offering its own currency is an idea that's semi-workable, but the NG and Manistique Imperium have also cut all official contact with enemies of the CS, so they don't work as intermediaries for the banking system of the CS.

Also, in terms of the accumulation of natural materials, 300 years is like no time at all. The only natural resource that can replenish in that short a time is wood. I dispute your claim that there are a lot of resources left untapped in central North America - have any examples?

[Temporalmage]

, they don't have to show profits on shipping (they own the vehicles), they don't have to profit off of their mining operations, factories, or even the final products

The CS states aren't running any businesses that I can recall.

War IS a business!!!

They don't buy the land they use (for mines or farming or grazing), they take it; so in essence it cost them nothing. None of the mines or factories or farms or manufaturing facilities have to show a profit, they simply have to break even at the end of the proccess when the final product,

Except that Karl Prosek and his coterie are greedy and power mad?

Greedy and power mad does not neccissarily have anything to do with money. Look at the US President, only a greedy power mad person would WANT that position considering it's very low pay, and the fact that every person trying to get that position is very very rich to begin with. If they get that position the pay would be chump change to them!

[Temporalmage]

The CS owns pretty much everything. They own the farms that crops and livestock grow on, they own the textile plants that make clothing, they own the manufaturing factorys that crank out everything from plastic silverware to computers to Death Head Transports; and everything in between.

Do you have a canon reference for that?

There is no actual canon referance for what the CS owns and does not. Perhaps "own" was too strong a word. How about "Controls", as in the CS controls everything. And that IS cannon. Do you honestly think the CS Emperor is gonna let some farmer, or factory owner, or mine owner tell him how much he's gonna get charged for somthing? No! Prosec is gonna tell them how much he's gonna pay, and how much product thier gonna provide, and how fast thier gonna provide it. The CS may not technically own these things, yet for all practicality, they do.