Fallen Cosmo knights? Should they be played?

[Talavar]

I don't know - some combinations of Fallen Cosmo-knight + OCC can end up being way more abusive to the game than a full-fledged cosmo-knight.

[Chad]

I think they only get the Magic Spells or Psionics, don't they?
And if psychic, how does everyone convert the PPE to ISP?

An Atlantean fallen CK Ley Line Rifter. I think it would work, but you'd have to keep things pretty high powered. I played a Fallen Knight once, but I didn't opt for any Magic or Psionics- I figured them being good enough the way they were.

[Chad]

I think they only get the Magic Spells or Psionics, don't they?
And if psychic, how does everyone convert the PPE to ISP?

Unfortunately the writer didn't bother with the important parts, which are rules for building a character.
For Mind Melters you usually burn-off all your PPE to get ISP, so technically your 200 or 300 PPE goes
out the window, and you get your 3D6x10 ISP + ME.

I think CJ did a pretty good job summing it up, but if that is the conversion process- you're getting jacked.
I mean, an average 5th level FK going to have about 380 PPE- and say ME 14. So average ISP would be 104? Cutting the PPE in half for a 2:1 ratio would be 190.
Are there any clear cut methods of converting PPE to ISP or vice versa?

[AlanGunhouse]

Look in BTS, you get 2 ISP for every 1 PPE converted...though much of the PPE is spent buying the powers themselves. Personally I think the FCK is better as a real player than the CK...I like characters whose powers are less "godlike". That also means I do not "munchkin" the classes or races I do play.

[csbioborg]

I never understood why they could become mind melters unless the Ck was a master psyic before

[Vrykolas2k]

Fallen Cosmo-knights are my fave characters.
No, you can't be a Temporal Mage or anything else that isn't specified.
Then again, I've always played it/run it that you could purchase magic like any other mage, so you can still acquire spells that are open to a ley line walker. To include blue flame, necromancy, and temporal.
They're at the low end of power compared to dragon hatchlings and most combat 'borgs, so I never considered them to be overpowered for most campaigns. Then again, when I run Rifts, pretty much everything's open.
It's RIFTS, after all...

[Vrykolas2k]

Fallen Cosmo-knights are my fave characters.
No, you can't be a Temporal Mage or anything else that isn't specified.
Then again, I've always played it/run it that you could purchase magic like any other mage, so you can still acquire spells that are open to a ley line walker. To include blue flame, necromancy, and temporal.
They're at the low end of power compared to dragon hatchlings and most combat 'borgs, so I never considered them to be overpowered for most campaigns. Then again, when I run Rifts, pretty much everything's open.
It's RIFTS, after all...

Yeah, I remember signing up for one "Rifts" game and I was the only player that took an actual Rifts OCC. The others were basically HU characters.

FCK fits right in there, high SN PS, lots of MDC, magic or psionics. If you take the Witch/Gift of Power, you can boost PS up into the high 30's and PP into the high 20s, plus gain flight or 100+ more MDC. That's pretty much an HU character (but no magic/psionics).


>

The average PS for a Fallen Cosmo-knight is 20.
Not very high.
The average MDC, starting at 3rd level, is 100... also not very high.
I think someone might have been cheating...
Ya, if you take wichery you can boost stuff, but most people I've run for don't (because I'm rather nasty with how I run a "master"); and I sure don't, because I don't want the control of my character going to anyone but me.

[Library Ogre]

Wow... Fallen Cosmo Knight gives you a rather unfortunate set of initials, huh?

And remember: Gift of power is probably above a Gift of Magic. GoM makes you a weakish wizard. GoP makes you a super-hero.

[Shadyslug]

One of my favorite NPC's was a Wolfen fallen CK with a whip as his cosmic weapon. He just coverted into a headhunter...essentially a gun for hire...

Can't say that the PC's in my group were all that happy about him...he would turn up at the most inconvenient of times...

[AlanGunhouse]

Actually, most master psychic classes say you have to start as a member of the class. I would not let a FCK become any kind of master psychic.

[Library Ogre]

Actually, most master psychic classes say you have to start as a member of the class. I would not let a FCK become any kind of master psychic.

What was the CK before he was a FCK-head?

[csbioborg]

any body every play a fck dedicated martial artists or some form of imortal class

[AlanGunhouse]

You mean turning the "excess PPE" into Chi? Might work.

[Vrykolas2k]

fallen CK can become mind melter....? don't you have to have (start) with psychic potential before becoming a master psychic??? I mean I can see learning to be a shifter/linewalker mage etcetra, but I always viewed psychic powers as ither natural talent, or brought on by some serious external intervention, and the forge doesn't grant such powers. Id think becoming a psychic is least likely as an occ selection.

Exceptions to the usual rule are presentied in whatever OCC/RCC you're looking into.
Then again, both as player and GM, I'm a 99% by-the-book kinda guy.
That 1% is just to negate munchkinism (such as combos that don't make any sense, such as a Fallen pursuing anything not specified).

[AlanGunhouse]

Bret Hegr's site had a nice page where he did "equations" of the different powers, that 1 major psi power = whatever. I don't think he ever equated PPE with some sort of "purchasing power". At some point though it just becomes pick and choose. Some guy will want to make some meandering "quantum equation" apply it towards Rifts PC to figure out that if you pick up the HU book, you get the same thing.

Acrually, prices to purchase psychic powers are part of BTS, at least in the first edition. I do not have second, so I can not tell you if it was changed.

[LostOne]

I've been toying with the idea of a FCK that becomes a cyber-knight, minus the very few cybernetic enhancements that cyber-knights can get. Use the cosmic weapon for the main weapon and psi-sword for the off-hand, until high level when IIRC the psi-sword should eventually bypass the cosmic weapon for damage, then use two psi-swords and reserve the cosmic weapon for throwing.

The way we do FCK is they can become psychic, even if their original race could not, by sacrificing 2 PPE to gain 1 ISP. So they burn off all PPE to get ISP.

[LostOne]

Actually, most master psychic classes say you have to start as a member of the class. I would not let a FCK become any kind of master psychic.

They're not actually a mind-melter OCC, just equivalent. And for everyone questioning if they should be able to when Cosmo-knights or even the original base race don't have psionics, remember that all stats are rerolled, so basically the Forge is rebuilding the entire body, brain included. So maybe the psychic potential would be there for Cosmoknights if their mind wasn't hardwired to produce the energy blasts, FTL travel, cosmic armor (it comes up with a thought), etc. Breaking that when the Forge drops them to FCK could allow some to access their brain in different ways, getting the psychic powers. Also they permanently lose half their PPE, it could be said that is burned up developing the new powers.

[runebeo]

In our game we allow a lot, but Cosmo-knights are not allowed in our game after my cousin played one for only a few nights and stole the show every time and he was only 3rd level and our players were 6 to 8th level. He showed us that Cosmo-knights had very few equals and that they were too powerful to build a good campaign around without everyone becoming knights too and even that would have gotten stale fast. My GM would allow a Fallen Knight, but would prefer we did not, one of our arch villain was a Fallen knight with temporal magic.

[Chad]

Actually, most master psychic classes say you have to start as a member of the class. I would not let a FCK become any kind of master psychic.

They're not actually a mind-melter OCC, just equivalent. And for everyone questioning if they should be able to when Cosmo-knights or even the original base race don't have psionics, remember that all stats are rerolled, so basically the Forge is rebuilding the entire body, brain included. So maybe the psychic potential would be there for Cosmoknights if their mind wasn't hardwired to produce the energy blasts, FTL travel, cosmic armor (it comes up with a thought), etc. Breaking that when the Forge drops them to FCK could allow some to access their brain in different ways, getting the psychic powers. Also they permanently lose half their PPE, it could be said that is burned up developing the new powers.

I can see where you're going here (and agree for the most part), but I thought you kept whatever stats where higher?

[LostOne]

I can see where you're going here (and agree for the most part), but I thought you kept whatever stats where higher?

You do, but there's still a good chance the IQ got rerolled and is higher. Even if it isn't, the cosmo-knights are immortal so it would stand to reason that the Forge still makes some changes to the brain unrelated to the IQ. It still opens up the possibility that the brain is radically different from the original race once this CK falls and becomes a FCK.

[Vrykolas2k]

I never understood why they could become mind melters unless the Ck was a master psyic before

they would have to be to be a mind melter.

No, they wouldn't.

[Vrykolas2k]

Actually, according to the rules... they can become a Mind Melter equivelent. Or Ley Line Walker. Which is interesting, especially if you play a Seljuk Fallen Knight.
House-rules are a different matter.
In the description of a Fallen Knight, the available choices are clear.

[Chad]

No one is stating that a FCK has to become a Psionic or Spell Caster though.

Right?

I mean, does a FCK have to choose anything?

[Vrykolas2k]

No one is stating that a FCK has to become a Psionic or Spell Caster though.

Right?

I mean, does a FCK have to choose anything?

True.
The last one I played was a Warrior of Valhalla.

[csbioborg]

the none mafic psionics fck should be stronger than the others since they focueed on using thier forge energy to harness thier martial powers. so at the least a bunch of phyiscal skills that do affect thier SN str and PE scores

[ApocalypseZero]

Actually, if I'm correct (and regarding this I believe I'm spot on), but like the Apok, the Cosmo-Knight, on the birth of becoming one, loses ALL aspects of their former lifes. So if you had a Ley Line Walker turned Cosmo-Knight, they lose ALL Spells, Ley Line Walker Abilities, etc. Skills I think are exempt, but frozen unless shared with the Cosmo-Knight class. Also, if one is an Elf, Wolfen, Tokanni, etc, thay lose ALL racial abilities (Nightvision, shapechanging, regeneration, etc) and only keep the physical appearance of what they once where. Of course, I know this is more in the text and not apart of the stat line. And the above would only count for existing classes becoming Cosmo-Knights, not starting ones.

But, after a Cosmo-Knight falls, they are not returned to their previous form, but take on a new form. This is how it's possible to have Psionics when a Race/O.C.C. would not normally be able to take or have them. Also, the Magic knowledge is purely Spell based, not the Line Walker Abilities too (That is the one thing I'm not sure of). Essentially, Cosmo-Knights and Fallen Cosmo-Knights should be classified as R.C.C.'s if they are not.

[Chad]

A FCK only gets the psionics or spells- no OCC abilities.

I know it is assumed they lose their racial abilities but I've never seen why or how, nor have I read it beyond 'they are remade'. But that still doesn't mean they lose their racial abilities.
I mean, I don't really care one way or the other- I always prefer to play a human, but...

[Vrykolas2k]

A FCK only gets the psionics or spells- no OCC abilities.

I know it is assumed they lose their racial abilities but I've never seen why or how, nor have I read it beyond 'they are remade'. But that still doesn't mean they lose their racial abilities.
I mean, I don't really care one way or the other- I always prefer to play a human, but...

According to the new FAQ, a wolfen say, would keep his senses. I don't know if the new FAQ is really consider "canon" per say, but for the most part you can use them as a logical guide-line.
So, it really is an OCC like it says in the book.
People who say otherwise generally seem to be nit-picking, really.
It would have been easier if some things had been clarified a bit more, but I suppose some things were cut to save space in the book.

[ApocalypseZero]

According to the new FAQ, a wolfen say, would keep his senses. I don't know if the new FAQ is really consider "canon" per say, but for the most part you can use them as a logical guide-line.
So, it really is an OCC like it says in the book.
People who say otherwise generally seem to be nit-picking, really.
It would have been easier if some things had been clarified a bit more, but I suppose some things were cut to save space in the book.

Another one of those things that gets to be placed in the 'G.M. Decision' file along with GB Pylon Activation and Splynncryth's Army Size.

[AlanGunhouse]

Actually, there was a time when the big red S was defending his city without his powers for a while. He was having trouble with some of his old enemies who still had their powers...