No Glitter Boys?

[Dustin Fireblade]

The 100 shots to 1000 shots type for the Boom Gun Payload was originally changed in the old Rifts Main Book, in the latter printings. I know it shows up in 16th printing. tt was also changed in the Free Quebec Worldbook. Both were before R:UE. The notion of R:UE changing this little thing is null and void. The 100 was a typo from day one. The Glitter Boy has 1000 shots. People need to deal with this fact and move on.

No need to get in a uproar about it. Some people may not like certain changes, you just need to deal with it and move on.

[ApocalypseZero]

The 100 shots to 1000 shots type for the Boom Gun Payload was originally changed in the old Rifts Main Book, in the latter printings. I know it shows up in 16th printing. tt was also changed in the Free Quebec Worldbook. Both were before R:UE. The notion of R:UE changing this little thing is null and void. The 100 was a typo from day one. The Glitter Boy has 1000 shots. People need to deal with this fact and move on.

No need to get in a uproar about it. Some people may not like certain changes, you just need to deal with it and move on.

The only uproar is the one you are implying. Please note that my post shows no form of emotion (in a text format) and should not be taken as having one. Thanks.

Now, as for the subject, it's not a Change, it's a Fix. 100 was a typo, not the rule. 1000 is the rule, not a change.

[glitterboy2098]

i use the 100 shot bin myself. i do so because the boomgun rounds are actually given dimensions, unlike most other ammo in the game, and 1000 rounds of those rounds have a volume close to half that of the GB itself, and mass something like 7 tons, almost 5 times the mass of the GB itself. (the 100 round drum is still pretty hefty at 700kg, but not that bad, and volume wise it fits the illustrations we have.)

i figure the extra zero was added to make it easier for players to play a boomer, so they wouldn't have to seek out expensive hard to find ammo as often. though i doubt that you'd run through even 100 rounds all that fast, given that one or two rounds an encounter will suffice, and big battles probably won't exceed ten or so. and every boomer should own a heavy energy rifle or plasma ejector as a backup weapon when the RG-14 isn't needed. toss in the extra 40 round bin a USA-G10 can carry, and you've got sufficent ammo a good player can use for a long time.

[Dustin Fireblade]

The 100 shots to 1000 shots type for the Boom Gun Payload was originally changed in the old Rifts Main Book, in the latter printings. I know it shows up in 16th printing. tt was also changed in the Free Quebec Worldbook. Both were before R:UE. The notion of R:UE changing this little thing is null and void. The 100 was a typo from day one. The Glitter Boy has 1000 shots. People need to deal with this fact and move on.

No need to get in a uproar about it. Some people may not like certain changes, you just need to deal with it and move on.

The only uproar is the one you are implying. Please note that my post shows no form of emotion (in a text format) and should not be taken as having one. Thanks.

Now, as for the subject, it's not a Change, it's a Fix. 100 was a typo, not the rule. 1000 is the rule, not a change.

Sorry - I've heard to many times "deal with it" phrases in a hostile tone and reacted negatively towards it. I am getting the vibe that you seem to feel that everyone should have been aware of this rule change though already? Not everyone buys every new re-prints (I still use my 1990 1st print RMB), it wasn't changed in my 10th print RMB and it was still 100 shots according to my 1st print FQ WB as well. I'm sure there are others as well that have bought books in the same manner and were rather surprised to see 1000 shots for the GB.

I think the real problem I have isn't that its a typo or not, it's that 100 was always well more than enough for every game the GB was used that I ever played in, seen played or otherwise heard about, and that was part of my reaction to your post as well - "if it's not broken why fix it?" deal.

At any rate, I'll happily ignore the 1000 and keep it at 100.

[Dustin Fireblade]

i use the 100 shot bin myself. i do so because the boomgun rounds are actually given dimensions, unlike most other ammo in the game, and 1000 rounds of those rounds have a volume close to half that of the GB itself, and mass something like 7 tons, almost 5 times the mass of the GB itself. (the 100 round drum is still pretty hefty at 700kg, but not that bad, and volume wise it fits the illustrations we have.)

Yeah I just find it really odd to place it at 1000 rounds. The CS Death Head's Transport in RUE only manages to cram in 40,000 rounds.

And if the Boom Gun does 90 points of damage, he can destroy the DHT in 15 shots.

[glitterboy2098]

actually, here's a great visual for the issue.

a soda can is about the dimensions of a boomgun shell. you can buy them in cases of 24. these cases are foot and a half by foot and a half by 1 foot cubes.

you'd need four of them to get roughly the same ammo supply as the 100 round bin of the RMB glitterboy. this gives you a stack about the size of a medium sized television (3 feet wide by 1.5 feet long by 2 feet tall). call it a large one with armor and feed system included.

to match the RUE ammobin, you need 10x this, or 40 cases.
(running the math, 3.4 cubes per side. at 5.1 feet long/wide, and 3.4 feet tall. note this doesn't include the armor, feed system, ect. which tend to take up between 25% and 50% of the ammo bin..)
giving you a stack the size of a small car.

now, which is more likely to match the artwork of a glitterboy's ammobin? a TV, or a volkswagon?

[Dog_O_War]

As for it "being shiny" and "tall"; 10.5 feet is hardly a giant target, though it is more noticeable. But the shiny aspect is easily modified via paint (and don't think this will affect its laser resistance - any painted part will burn the paint off first before it actually strikes the PA).

Not to rain on the parade too much, but IIRC there's a blurb in WB8 about one of the Japanese variants (scout version, IIRC) that is issued with camouflage paint on it, but it has to take a small amount of damage before its laser-resistance kicks in (i.e. first few shots from a laser will do full damage).

Then don't use the shoddy Japanese paint. Really, the idea that an MD laser wouldn't instantly vaporize the paint before actually striking the target is ludicrous; as zainy as how an MD knife-cut to the finger kills an SDC human instantly via the Ninja-Scoll effect.

The only OCC that can really pose a 1 on 1 challenge versus the Glitter Boy is the Cyber-Knight, and that's only if you don't know how to deal with a CK (try area bursts; they can't dodge that and you don't need to roll a hit against them to actually hit them. Abit meta-gamey though in approach, but nothing a single skirmish couldn't tell you).

Which is kind of hard to do, since Boom Gun rounds aren't area-effect weapons (no blast radius, no burst capability), & the stock GB doesn't come with any other weapon systems.

This, I should've clarified more; the tactic is not inclusive to the Glitterboy, but to those with burst-weapons available.

But for the most part, as with some of the other powerful O.C.C.s out there, the GM just needs to remember to balance out the GB's power level with the setting and the party. For example, the GB might be able to blow away the gate guards that want him to unsuit before entering town... but if he does that, the shopkeepers in town may refuse to sell the party anything, & the town council might hire a mercenary/bounty hunter group to track the party down after they leave. The GB pilot may not care (especially if he's Miscreant/Diabolical), but the rest of the party might just hang his **** out to dry for ruining their supply run.

You don't need to pay for looting rights. That is, if the Glitterboy was willing to plug town guards for asking him to abey their reasonable laws, and the other PCs let him, I don't see how or why the town council, along with those merchants made it through the night.

actually, here's a great visual for the issue.
now, which is more likely to match the artwork of a glitterboy's ammobin? a TV, or a Volkswagon?

Artwork is not canon. How ever much I absolutely agree with you on this topic.

[Mack]

One time I play-tested a GB versus 3 SAMAS for my GM. He had the Sam's take called shots to the GB's right hand so I couldn't adequately control the gun. I retaliated with called shots to the Sams' heads, but they got my hand before I could take them. Things went downhill after that. Speed and swirling tactics for the win.

You should have won - unless the Samas were using non-standard weapons: you can't make called shots with burst weapons (rail guns).

Plus I believe the Boom Gun can be voice activated/fired. That may be a different model than the standard though.

Also, quick note: For those arguing 100 or 1000 Shots, please know that it wasn't changed in R:UE. It was changed long before then.

Yea, at the time we allowed called shots to be bursts (this occurred in 1993, possibly 1992). And while you can fire the gun without the GB's hand, aiming it is the problem. You lose most of your control and earn a hefty penalty to strike.

[Rahmota]

I have to say I go with the 100 rounds number for multiple reasons.

1: 100 rounds means a person has to think a lot lot more and not just do the whole spray and pray method of flinging as much downrange as they can and hoping something hits.

2: It gives strategies and tactics a bit more importance than just running out and blasting away. GB's are beautiful sniper, artillery support, main battle tank with proper support. Alone or used improperly they can be brought down by smaller troops. Heck if done right a bunch of small furry tree dwelling primitives could bring one down......

3: The afore mentioned size and capacity issue for the ammo pack. The more ammo you try to stuff in the less effective the armor is going to be.

As for 100 rounds not lasting depending on how combat heavy they are and wasteful of rounds it could last 1 day or a whole year. I play paintball. I use a Tiberius Arms T9 with an 8 round magazine (actually I carry 3 extras and 1 in the hole). No hopper. I can take a 5000 round box of balls to the field and end the day with most of it left over whereas my friends with their tipmanns and stuff with full auto and big hoppers and stuff are usually bumming ammo before the day is out.

[R Ditto]

IIRC from old estimates, and based on the old RMB drawings, a GB's BG cartridge is 7in long, which makes it roughly 2in/50mm wide based on the pictures.
Also, old estimates (from Shiva iirc) put the estimated mass of the projectiles at around 3.5 pounds.
The 'slugs' themselves are apparently an inch long and 1/5th an inch in diameter (5x25mm)

My old estimates put the rounds as actually being 'balanced' as far as damage.
If you took old 5.56mm rounds, made them go twice as fast, you double damage from 5-30 to 10-60, increase mass 50% and it gets upped again to 15-90. Multiply that by 200 and you get 3000-18000, or 30-180 MD.

One estimate I did put the GB as needing something like a pair of 55 gallon drums if it were to hold 1,000 rounds of ammo, and with old estimates it would weight 3500 pounds.
As is, at 350 pounds, if the BG weight includes the gun, than it puts the gun itself at around 500 pounds, which in turn makes the BG + ammo roughly 1/3 of the GB's overall weight, with an unarmed GB being 1,600 pounds. That makes the new 1,000 round as having the ammo supply alone weighing twice as much as the GB itself minus gun.

As for the extra 3 some odd inches of the cartridge length... I think it is for a small explosive charge, to add light and sound to the BG shots for absolutely no other reason that psychological warfare and to give it an extra advantage over opponents without proper insulation against the sonic boom, and which 'misfires' underwater to create a rocket like effect, explaining how the stupid thing gets sent flying back 100ft in water when it only goes 30ft in air, when water is some 600 times denser than air.

I can see why GMs would not allow a GB.

The GB is made to be a mass murdering machine, plain and simple.
Over on the Legendary GB thread, there is actually a GB that shows just how much of a mass killing machine it is, after some sort of invasion, the damned thing still prefers human targets, apparrently hampering human attempts to drive out the invaders, because it was used early on to kill thousands of innocents trying to force their way into an structure that simply couldn't safely support any more people.

200 slugs per shot, sonic boom only useful against unarmored foes, shiny armor that makes it easier to spot and hit with every non-laser weapon out there. It's no walking tank, it's a walking killing machine, made to simply kill, wound and demoralize as many people as possible in battle, dealing with masses of people equipped with cheap laser weapons. It stinks as an anti-armor weapon, with its long range shotgun of ranged reaping. People, soldiers, borgs, crazies, juicers, PA, if it is human, is human inside, or is simply humanoid with lots of little spots that could be torn apart or damaged by a mass of projectiles, then the GB is effective against it.

Imagine, one shot, and 200 slugs, each 5x25mm, each 8 grams of high density metal go flying into a town by accident at speeds of mach 5/1,500m/s, at 15-90 SDC per each of those 200 slugs, they are going to plow through wood walls, shatter stone/brick walls, tear into people, etc. A mission to protect a town turns into an accidental massacre that leaves even raiders shocked and horrified... a stray shot devestates people that the party doesn't even know is in the area.

This mighty hero and symbol of great times has an equally great dark side...

That being said...

If there is to be no GB, then why toss out the GB pilot in general?

Dispossesed Glitterboy Pilot.
Generations of GB pilots have made the character an excellent GB pilot, they have the skills and the knowledge to make a GB do stuff the common folk don't even know is possible (except for people from FQ, Japan, etc)... the only problem, they don't have a GB...
Forced to wander the land, without a GB, as something happened to it due to some event that occured before, during, or shortly after the GB was 'officially' handed down to them. Maybe it was stolen, destroyed, or simply sabotaged or mysteriously damaged to the point of being unrecoveable, whatever the case, they no longer have a GB, maybe they have some small amulet or other keepsake that is nothing more than a small fragment of glitter armor, a lone testement to what they once had and lost, or what was taken from them before they had it.

Like a Knight without a horse, armor, sword or squire, they find themselves in a struggle with themselves, and the world around them.
Who will honor or pay tribute to a Knight that does not even have his armor?
Who will even believe someone is a mighty warrior when they have no way to prove that they once were such a warrior?
And how do they deal with the scorn and bad words of those to believe them and then belittle and insult them for no longer having it?
Perhaps being without a GB can be a far greater challenge for the pilot than any tank or demon can be for a pilot still possessing a GB.
Perhaps the adventure starts out with the group finding the last character in a bar, wearing dingy and dirty GB pilot armor, drowning their sorrows in a mug of cheap ale, staring at a small fragment of glitter material in their scarrred palm, scarred from holding the jagged edges to tight one to many times due to old and unpleasant memories that make them question themselves in many ways...

[bar1scorpio]

Rifts are actually caused by Glitter Boy guns punching holes through the universe.

(damn. Now you've got me doing Glitter Boy Facts.)

[Library Ogre]

Rifts are actually caused by Glitter Boy guns punching holes through the universe.

(damn. Now you've got me doing Glitter Boy Facts.)

Step away from the Internet, bar1scorpio. You and the internet need some time away from each other, before all your base are belong to them.

[AlanGunhouse]

Might be interesting to have 2 of 3 GB pilots sharing one suit of GB armor, to reflect this scarcity.

[AlanGunhouse]

Might be interesting to have 2 of 3 GB pilots sharing one suit of GB armor, to reflect this scarcity.

That'd be a tight squeeze...

Unless....

OMG! FLOOPER GLITTERBOY PILOTS! LOL!!!1!1!

Ack! I can't believe just wrote that. That was painful.

Well, I actually intended only one at a time to be piloting

[verdilak]

In the past week, I have come across 2 separate rifts games with 2 separate GMs and gaming groups. They both are not allowing glitter boys to be played in their games.

I understand GMs perogative and all, having ran several games myself where certain things just wouldnt fit. Why, in a "regular" rifts game, would you say that no glitter boys allowed?

Its not that they wouldnt fit, its the POWER LEVEL of the game at hand.

Some GM's want a lower-powered game. I know I see the Dragon and Glitterboy as high-powered classes.

[AlanGunhouse]

What class are you? No class is perfect, that is part of the point of having a variety.

[T-Willard]

As far as the 1,000 rounds VS 100 rounds, nobody is fooling me a bit. The original book, and books long after that, kind of certify with basic math skills learned in JR High that the stupid thing only carries 100 rounds.

As to flechettes, personally, I'd say that is all that is left. That was what everyone copies, because the old rounds are gone, and through the Dark Ages, nobody, not even Free Quebec and Triax, bothered with the old rounds. The flechettes were left over because, lets face it, with the Demon Plagues, flechettes were about as useful as **** on boar.

The standard boom gun round isn't even a real round. It's after the battle, they picked up the shell casing, glued it back together with Elmer's Glue, and stuffed nails and shards of iron, and whatever crap that was ferrous and strewn about the battlefield. By the time the Dark Ages ended, nobody even knows what APDSFSDU-T even means any more, much less how to make one or properly use them.

Glitter Boys were NEVER intended for solo use, with unarmored team-mates too stupid to engage their built in audio dampeners, or some fool on the modern battlefield without armor that didn't think he was going to be turned into pink face. I mean, seriously, look at it. The Pre-Rifts battlefield was NO place for someone without armor. Would you run into the middle of two tank divisions slugging it out in a cardboard box? No! You'd get turned into meat chunks, and frankly, deserve it.

Glitter Boys were intended to be used in mass amounts. Like modern armor, 4-6 of them, with support units. Air-Cav, baby, in the form of Silver Eagles AKA SAMAS suits. Troops in body armor, who are smart enough to turn on their systems so the sonic spike of that gun going off doesn't deafen them.

Even then, what kind of sonic boom is that gun creating, and how? The round only goes at MACH 2, and I was less than 15 feet from an M1A2 Main Battle Tank firing its 120mm main gun, and all it did was ring my bell pretty good, and all I had was cheap yellow foam earplugs in. That round was doing like MACH-5 when it left the barrel. Is it a super-gun? Is the sonic boom a direct effect created by baffles and engineering? Did some lab rat say: "Hey! Know what sounds like a good idea? Lets INCREASE the retort of the weapon, to deafen nearby troops and knock them cold!"

And one weapon? What were they smoking? Even an M1 has multiple weapon systems. Well, true, it's a .50 caliber machinegun (or is the 240 7.62mm medium machinegun, I can't remember any more, too many SONIC BOOM! (read that in Guile's voice) going off near my poor little SDC head) and that will rip things up.

To be honest, back when I first picked up Rifts, NOBODY wanted to play the Glitter Boy. It's shiny, it's loud, you can't fire on the move, if some Juicer gets behind you and cuts your ammo belt or disables your recoil compensation thruster, you're finished, and everyone hates you. It's an armchair general's idea of a good war machine. Useless in urban combat, limited combat roles, a missile beacon, sat-recon spottable, no shoot and scoot capability, solitary weapon, limited ammunition storage (get out of here with that 1,000 round crap, I can do math, I've seen 1,000 rounds of 30mm APDSDU for an Apache, you can't fool me), and useless for anything besides anti-armor roles outside of urban or industrial areas.

Without mission variable munitions, a secondary or trinary weapon systems, multiple support, and some severe battlefield doctrinal changes, the GB isn't even as useful as a piece of junk Russian T-72. Seriously, it would have been cheaper to retrofit all the old M1A1 tanks with the GB gun, and a lot better. The tank could fire on the move, has a sleeker radar profile, could pack more armor, more rounds, be a more stable firing platform, and carry additional weapon systems.

Either the Rifts Glitter Boy and the Chromium Guardsman armors are missing mission critical systems left out due to classified information, or their lab junk that the military turned down, and that's why they are found all over the place.

Seriously? Flechettes? Check the Vietnam facts that everyone seems to be so in love with when they rattle off why physical prowess doesn't matter in combat. Flechettes are crap, tumble and lodge with the minimal cover, and are useful only to slaughter packed ranks of the enemy.

They should have stuck with tungsten penetration with a discarding sabot. At least then, it could be called an anti-armor round.

Flechettes. Please.



----This rant brought to you by Wild Turkey and professional dancers----

[AlanGunhouse]

Yep, I remember that you can take out a GP with a single Crazy. I did it once (nobody else was crazy enough to try )

[Dog_O_War]

As far as the 1,000 rounds VS 100 rounds, nobody is fooling me a bit. The original book, and books long after that, kind of certify with basic math skills learned in JR High that the stupid thing only carries 100 rounds.

It's got a thousand rounds. Don't let the pictures fool you.

As to flechettes, personally, I'd say that is all that is left. That was what everyone copies, because the old rounds are gone, and through the Dark Ages, nobody, not even Free Quebec and Triax, bothered with the old rounds. The flechettes were left over because, lets face it, with the Demon Plagues, flechettes were about as useful as **** on boar.

The Flechettes are the equivalent of a half-dozen saibot rounds (well, they'd have to be given the guns' damage), so clearly equating this thing to left-overs or boar-b*obs is a miss-calculation on your part.

Glitter Boys were NEVER intended for solo use, with unarmored team-mates too stupid to engage their built in audio dampeners, or some fool on the modern battlefield without armor that didn't think he was going to be turned into pink face. I mean, seriously, look at it. The Pre-Rifts battlefield was NO place for someone without armor. Would you run into the middle of two tank divisions slugging it out in a cardboard box? No! You'd get turned into meat chunks, and frankly, deserve it.

This is the way it is, even if you've got armour on. Why would you think that a second-skin would save you from weapons capable of destroying you in a hit anyways? You literally have to be rolling in PA to survive an approach with an MD tank. It is the same now as it was at the tanks' inception; no amount of personal armour will save you.
This really is a non-point for condemning teammates without armour on.

Glitter Boys were intended to be used in mass amounts. Like modern armor, 4-6 of them, with support units. Air-Cav, baby, in the form of Silver Eagles AKA SAMAS suits. Troops in body armor, who are smart enough to turn on their systems so the sonic spike of that gun going off doesn't deafen them.

This, I can agree with.
But it has no relivance on the effectiveness of the PA. Obviously having a squadron of tanks and air support is better than a lone tank, and more effective too. So really, what is your point?
Have you taken into consideration what that same group would be like without a Glitterboy? Less effective at destroying tanks and other high-MD targets.

And one weapon? What were they smoking? Even an M1 has multiple weapon systems. Well, true, it's a .50 caliber machinegun (or is the 240 7.62mm medium machinegun, I can't remember any more, too many SONIC BOOM! (read that in Guile's voice) going off near my poor little SDC head) and that will rip things up.

The thing is crewed by a single pilot, with THEE weapon. What more could you want?
Anti-air? You got that with a super-gun.
Anti-infantry? You got that with a super-gun.
Anti-armour? You got that with a super-gun.
The weapon systems on a tank cannot be replicated on a Glitterboy without additional "pilots", or rather an AI to fire them. So when it comes down to it, why would you attach other weapons that A. will never get used, and B. are less effective than your main gun?

To be honest, back when I first picked up Rifts, NOBODY wanted to play the Glitter Boy. It's shiny, it's loud, you can't fire on the move, if some Juicer gets behind you and cuts your ammo belt or disables your recoil compensation thruster, you're finished, and everyone hates you.

Except for the fact that you are literally 10 times stronger than that Juicer, AND have better combat bonuses thanks to Robot combat: Elite..... Yeah, IF that Juicer can cross your mile of distance and dodge all 6-7 attacks you can make per 15 seconds, or the near two rounds it'll take that Juicer to run full-out to you.
In a city-fight scenario, this thing hides in a building and plugs away at targets. If it has to move up a street or something, it has better armour and resistance to the most common weapon on Rifts earth, so I fail to see the how and why it'd get nuked any faster than a group of three guys in Crusader.
Infact, who would actually stay and fight beyond the GMs' limitless legions of fearless hobo-gunsmen? This, btw is what they'd have to be in order to A; continue to fight a Glitterboy, and B; NOT flood the party with expensive equipment afterwards.

It's an armchair general's idea of a good war machine. Useless in urban combat, limited combat roles, a missile beacon, sat-recon spottable, no shoot and scoot capability, solitary weapon, limited ammunition storage (get out of here with that 1,000 round crap, I can do math, I've seen 1,000 rounds of 30mm APDSDU for an Apache, you can't fool me), and useless for anything besides anti-armor roles outside of urban or industrial areas.

Sat-recon? What single piece of equipment in all of the Rifts universe, beyond Naruni technology isn't satellite-spottable?! Even today in our modern world we can see armourless, weaponless humans. Why would they care then - if everyone can see everything anyways that the Glitterboy was "sat-reconable"?
Have you looked at missile ranges and damages lately? Anything larger than a mini-missile had better be fired within half-a mile from a hidden location, otherwise the GB's radar detection system will alert the pilot, and he'll shoot it down. As for survivable, did you know that on average it would take 22 plasma mini-missiles to reduce the Glitterboy to zero MD? Did you know that any squad-based weapons team firing those missiles will take minutes of dedicated fire with a CR-1 launcher, just to do this? Or that a Mark-V would have to blow the wad it carries in it's front launchers just to have a chance at killing the GB, not that it could though as a Glitterboy has a comparibly ranged weapon that it can use to completely destroy that Mark-V in a single round.

Did you know that a Glitterboy's ammunition doesn't need a casing 5 times larger than the actual round just to carry enough powder-charge to fire it? Have you seen 1000 30mm rounds with the equivalent of a firing cap for a 12 gauge shotgun shell attached to them? Would you theorize that they would infact take up less round by a considerable amount than a 1000 rounds of 30mm APDSDU?

Without mission variable munitions, a secondary or trinary weapon systems, multiple support, and some severe battlefield doctrinal changes, the GB isn't even as useful as a piece of junk Russian T-72. Seriously, it would have been cheaper to retrofit all the old M1A1 tanks with the GB gun, and a lot better. The tank could fire on the move, has a sleeker radar profile, could pack more armor, more rounds, be a more stable firing platform, and carry additional weapon systems.

Putting the Boomgun on a tank would've been alot better, yes. As to whether the GB is more usefull than a T-72; well, I don't know of any T-72s that can climb a mountain or fight a battle on the 100th floor of a sky-scraper. OR are NBC warfare approved.

Seriously? Flechettes? Check the Vietnam facts that everyone seems to be so in love with when they rattle off why physical prowess doesn't matter in combat. Flechettes are crap, tumble and lodge with the minimal cover, and are useful only to slaughter packed ranks of the enemy.

Not when those flechettes are saibot-round equivalents.

They should have stuck with tungsten penetration with a discarding sabot. At least then, it could be called an anti-armor round.

Who says they didn't? Ever notice the complete lack of information on metals used?

Either the Rifts Glitter Boy and the Chromium Guardsman armors are missing mission critical systems left out due to classified information, or their lab junk that the military turned down, and that's why they are found all over the place.
----This rant brought to you by Wild Turkey and professional dancers----

As sound as your post may seem to the casual viewer, it feels to me as if you forgot to put thought into it.
Yes the boomgun itself would have seen a much more efficient use on a tank, but then again a bigger gun would see better use than a boomgun would on a tank.
Yes, a Glitterboy works best as a supported unit; they already elaborate on this in Free Quebec. But the Glitterboy isn't any less effective without supporting units as a stand-alone. That is, the supporting units are themselves tanks, and those tanks are worth a fixed amount. Like trying to make a dollar from change;a quarter is still a quarter, even if you used it for a greater purpose.

The rest of it though (your rant) seems like uniformed conjecture; we've all played the game here, but what I don't understand is how you've never seen the actual effectiveness of the PA itself. The weapons designed to combat and destroy it aren't even cost-effective, making it the superior machine in all respects.

As for its role in a group; I tend to not want to be the support cast, therefore I don't like a Glitterboy in the party. As I said in my rant earlier, I don't like sitting around waiting for a fast-mover to get close just so I can have a turn at combat, while in the meantime I watch the Glitterboy do cool things.

[Dustin Fireblade]

As sound as your post may seem to the casual viewer, it feels to me as if you forgot to put thought into it.

That's funny. I'n going to get some popcorn and wait for T's response.

[Dog_O_War]

As sound as your post may seem to the casual viewer, it feels to me as if you forgot to put thought into it.

That's funny. I'n going to get some popcorn and wait for T's response.

I'd rather have my post spurn thought through scorn than lay dumb the masses.

[Rahmota]

Except for the fact that you are literally 10 times stronger than that Juicer, AND have better combat bonuses thanks to Robot combat: Elite..... Yeah, IF that Juicer can cross your mile of distance and dodge all 6-7 attacks you can make per 15 seconds, or the near two rounds it'll take that Juicer to run full-out to you.

Well heres the way it can go down. Unless the GB has friends to watch his back the Juicer can sneek up on him. He doesnt have to do the daylight charge across the mine field. Also if the Juicer has friends to distract the GB that makes his job easier. Recall if you will that the Juicer is supposed to be the ultimate special ops sniper/assassin. A daylight charge across open ground into the jaws of certain death is not really supposed to be his job. Sneak up quickly behind the target give him a fusion block enema and get out before anyone knows hes been there is more his job description.

IMO the GB is okay. Is not all its cracked up to be and needs certain tweeks to be a bit better. I'll agree that the sonic boom made by the cannon has been way way over exagerated by the fluff text and all as my hunting rifle makes a nice load sonic boom but doesnt cause the hunting blind to fall apart or the tree I'm standing next to to splinter.

[Dog_O_War]

Except for the fact that you are literally 10 times stronger than that Juicer, AND have better combat bonuses thanks to Robot combat: Elite..... Yeah, IF that Juicer can cross your mile of distance and dodge all 6-7 attacks you can make per 15 seconds, or the near two rounds it'll take that Juicer to run full-out to you.

Well heres the way it can go down. Unless the GB has friends to watch his back the Juicer can sneek up on him. He doesnt have to do the daylight charge across the mine field. Also if the Juicer has friends to distract the GB that makes his job easier. Recall if you will that the Juicer is supposed to be the ultimate special ops sniper/assassin.

This sentence right here is why the Glitterboy is bad for a party. The Juicer is supposed to be, but given that the Glitterboy both out-ranges and out-shoots the Juicer, as well as in a covert scenario this puts the Juicer into a solo-session mode, where PA and those types are out of place.

A daylight charge across open ground into the jaws of certain death is not really supposed to be his job. Sneak up quickly behind the target give him a fusion block enema and get out before anyone knows hes been there is more his job description.

Whoa, bud. You can't state that a Juicer's job isn't that; it very well might be. Beyond PA, whos' job would that be? While the Juicer can stealth, his "job" within a PC group is dependant on how the player wishes to see his character.

What you're stating here is that he can't have said job because of Glitterboys. And infact when there isn't a Glitterboy in the party, the Juicers' job is usually "A daylight charge across open ground into the jaws of certain death". Someones' gotta get up there and disable or combat the enemy, and the Juicer is often the only one fast enough and crazy enough to do it.

[glitterboy2098]

ok, i've done some measuring since my last example of scale.

a soda can is 6 inches tall by 2 inches in diameter. pretty darn close to a boomgun round.

a case of 24 is about one cubic foot 12inx12inx12in (i overestimated the size last time) we'll round up to 25 per cubic foot for simplicity and to account for the fact a case of soda is not packed optimumly.

so 100 rounds is 4 cubic feet. roughly the size of a hotel minifridge. not a bad size. about 2 feet a side, counting all the cooling system and case, which is probably a good guess as to how much space an internal feed takes up.

1000 rounds is 40 cubic feet, or the internal space of two full sized refrigerators. you know the type. six feet tall, about three feet long, three feet wide?

so which seems more likely for a ten foor tall, three foot deep, five foot wide powered armor to be lugging around on it's back. a minifridge, or two full refrigerators?

[AlanGunhouse]

What does probable have to do with Rifts? Just kidding, 1000 was probably a misprint.

[T-Willard]

As far as the 1,000 rounds VS 100 rounds, nobody is fooling me a bit. The original book, and books long after that, kind of certify with basic math skills learned in JR High that the stupid thing only carries 100 rounds.

It's got a thousand rounds. Don't let the pictures fool you.

Yeah, 7"x2" and roughly 3 pounds means it has 1,000 rounds. I'm not letting pictures fool anything, I'm going by sheer math, and by numerous books that the simple error should have been caught in post-editing.

As to flechettes, personally, I'd say that is all that is left. That was what everyone copies, because the old rounds are gone, and through the Dark Ages, nobody, not even Free Quebec and Triax, bothered with the old rounds. The flechettes were left over because, lets face it, with the Demon Plagues, flechettes were about as useful as **** on boar.

The Flechettes are the equivalent of a half-dozen saibot rounds (well, they'd have to be given the guns' damage), so clearly equating this thing to left-overs or boar-b*obs is a miss-calculation on your part.

BUZZ! Wrong. Flechettes are NOT equal to sabots. Flechettes are small dart-like rounds packed inside a single cartridge, sometimes with small fins for air stabilization, but often without. Used in everything from shotguns to 120mm tank rounds to 8" artillery shells, the flechette is designed in such a way that it can be used against mass packed troops, or slice through jungle canopy, allowing a wide dispersal fire in the hopes of taking out multiple enemies with one shot and/or damaging and/or destroying cover and concealment provided by forest and jungle terrain. Flechettes come in many types, from the barbed and microfinned "needle" projections of the 12 gauge shotgun round, which is primarily illegal for use against civilian targets and is only legal in the hands of US Law Enforcement Agencies and the military. Use of shotgun flechettes may be considered against the articles of war and the rules of land warfare. Tank flechettes, as fired from the 120mm main gun, are usually only 20-40 darts, depending upon the round. These darts are roughly eight inches long and have fin stabilization. They were used in Vietnam, and despite public protest, the US military maintains a stockpile of these types of rounds, as do many other nations.

Now, the Discarding Sabot type round features a single submunition, sometimes fin stabilized, sometimes not, wrapped with the discardable ballistic sleeve. This sleeve consists of a scooped "funnel" forward end and a solid back end, and is designed to peel away from the submunition when the round has left the barrel. The solid back end ensures that all chamber pressure is used to propel the round. Now, this submunition is able to travel very far, and very fast, and delivers a massive kinetic punch. DS rounds are also called "hyper-velocity" rounds in some circles, that is because the sub-munition (also called the Long Rod Penetrator) achieves a much higher velocity than a normal round would while still in the barrel.

What the Boom Gun fires, by ALL descriptions and artwork, is a solid bar flechette round. NOT a discarding sabot round. It contains 4 circular "beds" of 50 rounds each, all lined up on one another. That is nowhere even NEAR a discarding sabot round. It is nowhere NEAR a hyper-velocity round.

It goes at Mach-Two. Don't tell me it's a hypervelocity round when there are 9mm pistols with better muzzle speeds.

Glitter Boys were NEVER intended for solo use, with unarmored team-mates too stupid to engage their built in audio dampeners, or some fool on the modern battlefield without armor that didn't think he was going to be turned into pink face. I mean, seriously, look at it. The Pre-Rifts battlefield was NO place for someone without armor. Would you run into the middle of two tank divisions slugging it out in a cardboard box? No! You'd get turned into meat chunks, and frankly, deserve it.

This is the way it is, even if you've got armour on. Why would you think that a second-skin would save you from weapons capable of destroying you in a hit anyways? You literally have to be rolling in PA to survive an approach with an MD tank. It is the same now as it was at the tanks' inception; no amount of personal armour will save you.
This really is a non-point for condemning teammates without armour on.

Really? So the guys in the party without armor who complain and whine about the boom-gun's effects are too cheap and/or too stupid to buy a helmet with sonic spike dampeners are the ones in the right?

You missed the point completely.

Glitter Boys were intended to be used in mass amounts. Like modern armor, 4-6 of them, with support units. Air-Cav, baby, in the form of Silver Eagles AKA SAMAS suits. Troops in body armor, who are smart enough to turn on their systems so the sonic spike of that gun going off doesn't deafen them.

This, I can agree with.
But it has no relivance on the effectiveness of the PA. Obviously having a squadron of tanks and air support is better than a lone tank, and more effective too. So really, what is your point?

Keep reading.

And frankly, there are times when one tank is more effective/mission essential, than a squad of tanks. Urban combat to begin with. And lets face it, the Glitter Boy is a sucktastic piece of hardware for urban combat.

Have you taken into consideration what that same group would be like without a Glitterboy? Less effective at destroying tanks and other high-MD targets.

BUZZ! Wrong! The same party could pack a missile launcher (you know, anti-tank/anti-bunker/anti-building weapons) and missiles, which might actually be superior. They'd be able to fire and move, they'd have a lower radar profile, and be able to break enemy contact easier. The Glitter Boy is not the end all, be all of MD Combat.

And one weapon? What were they smoking? Even an M1 has multiple weapon systems. Well, true, it's a .50 caliber machinegun (or is the 240 7.62mm medium machinegun, I can't remember any more, too many SONIC BOOM! (read that in Guile's voice) going off near my poor little SDC head) and that will rip things up.

The thing is crewed by a single pilot, with THEE weapon. What more could you want?

Secondary or trinary weapon for times when the primary weapon is disabled or otherwise rendered inoperative, or times where the boom gun can't be used.

Anti-air? You got that with a super-gun.

The projectile goes at MACH-Two, it's the WORST anti-aircraft gun ever. It's range is 2 miles. Big deal. You know what happens in the real world? The pilot locks the armor from 7 miles out, launches the AGM-114 Hellfire from 4 miles out, banks off. Glitter Boy go boom. Meanwhile some ground pig with a Stinger Missile system hiding in a hole blows the aircraft out of the air with the MACH 4 missile that was fired 4 miles away from the plane.

Loser? Glitter Boy, as the top-down attack programmed EFP goes off and drives right through the top of the helmet.

If you think the Glitter Boy is an anti-air unit, your military theory is sorely lacking.

Anti-infantry? You got that with a super-gun.

Yeah, just like tanks are so effective against infantry. We did a playtest once. Just for fun. Armed 100 level 1 infantry with assault rifles loaded with APDSDU rounds (3 MD per burst) and placed them on the edges of the valley, and figured average everything. The GB was destroyed in 2 rounds. He killed 12 infantrymen.

Winner? Infantry.

The GB is really really really bad anti-infantry weapon. It can't scoot and shoot. It's obvious. It's big. And any infantry platoon worth it's salt is going to rip that thing a new butthole.

Anti-armour? You got that with a super-gun.

**** poor range. **** poor fire operations.

Let's be honest, looking at it from a pure armored cavalry point, the GB looks good, but it could be used better, cheaper, and not require extensive troop retraining and doctrinal changes.

The weapon systems on a tank cannot be replicated on a Glitterboy without additional "pilots", or rather an AI to fire them. So when it comes down to it, why would you attach other weapons that A. will never get used, and B. are less effective than your main gun?

YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING!!!!

Why, you are absolutely right. Why would ANYONE put anything less effective than a main gun on a tank? Or a battleship. Or a DDX Destroyer. Or even your basic infantryman should just be issued rocket launchers and nothing else!

To be honest, back when I first picked up Rifts, NOBODY wanted to play the Glitter Boy. It's shiny, it's loud, you can't fire on the move, if some Juicer gets behind you and cuts your ammo belt or disables your recoil compensation thruster, you're finished, and everyone hates you.

Except for the fact that you are literally 10 times stronger than that Juicer,

ANd 10X more obvious and 10X slower and 10X less maneuverable and 10X more ineffective in an urban area and 10X more likely to eat missiles.

AND have better combat bonuses thanks to Robot combat: Elite.....

Only if you're facing an untrained Juicer who was a 90 year old parapalegic before conversion.

Yeah, IF that Juicer can cross your mile of distance

Simple to do, really.

and dodge all 6-7 attacks you can make per 15 seconds,

Autododge

or the near two rounds it'll take that Juicer to run full-out to you.

Only the untrained or suicidal will charge, unless there is a mass of juicers, in which case, the GB is royally screwed.

You've never really encountered infantry anti-armor tactics, have you?

In a city-fight scenario, this thing hides in a building and plugs away at targets.

The pylons damage the floor, the GB better hope that there isn't a basement below it. The same reason a TANK doesn't move into a building to fire. Not to mention the fact that line of sight and sensor degredation due to the building. He's asking to be made into kibble by the infantry.

Collateral damage in modern warfare is nearly unacceptable. He'd be in the building, firing that boomgun, injuring civilians unable to leave the building, the sonic boom pounding at the structure and occupants. Return fire is weakening the building, some smartass hoses a bracket of WP grenades into the upper story through an M-203 grenade launcher, and the building is on fire.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life.

If it has to move up a street or something, it has better armour and resistance to the most common weapon on Rifts earth, so I fail to see the how and why it'd get nuked any faster than a group of three guys in Crusader.

Cover. Concealment. Ability to move and shoot.

Infantry just waiting for it to pass by so they can hose the recoil compensation gear in the rear of the GB. Those thrusters only have 75 MDC each, that's a couple of bursts from an infantry squad.

Now your GB, which supposedly doesn't need a secondary weapon, cannot fire its primary weapon.

In fact, who would actually stay and fight beyond the GMs' limitless legions of fearless hobo-gunsmen?

Why would anyone fight tanks? If the GB was real, I could create an anti-GB doctrine for infantry within an hour. The average infantryman squad would already know the tactics from anti-armor training. Fearless has nothing to do with it.

This, btw is what they'd have to be in order to A; continue to fight a Glitterboy,

All it takes is the desire and motivation to kill the enemy.

and B; NOT flood the party with expensive equipment afterwards.

Standard infantryman loadout in the "Golden Age" would be more than capable of fighting a GB.

It's an armchair general's idea of a good war machine. Useless in urban combat, limited combat roles, a missile beacon, sat-recon spottable, no shoot and scoot capability, solitary weapon, limited ammunition storage (get out of here with that 1,000 round crap, I can do math, I've seen 1,000 rounds of 30mm APDSDU for an Apache, you can't fool me), and useless for anything besides anti-armor roles outside of urban or industrial areas.

Sat-recon? What single piece of equipment in all of the Rifts universe, beyond Naruni technology isn't satellite-spottable?! Even today in our modern world we can see armourless, weaponless humans. Why would they care then - if everyone can see everything anyways that the Glitterboy was "sat-reconable"?

I'm speaking of the original design as probably presented to DARPA and Future Warfighter Labs. It would matter to the planners.

Have you looked at missile ranges and damages lately? Anything larger than a mini-missile had better be fired within half-a mile from a hidden location, otherwise the GB's radar detection system will alert the pilot, and he'll shoot it down.

In Pre-Rifts, it wouldn't be ONE missile, it would be a barrage, probably of MRLS submunition bomblets. Or it would be a pop-up fire and forget mini-missile.

As for survivable, did you know that on average it would take 22 plasma mini-missiles to reduce the Glitterboy to zero MD?

Let's not go with plasma. Let's go with standard AP. That's 1d6x10. Average damage will be 35 points of damage. 770 MD, that's 22 rounds. Gotcha. Now, that's assuming that all the squad is doing is firing missiles. We'll go with your idea, where a 7 man (or reenforced 13 man fireteam, but that would be too quick) is ambushing a GB. They let it pass, and they open fire. One medium weapon, we'll say a rail gun (we'll use the old Pre-Rifts SAMAS gun, doing 35 points of damage per round) hoses the front from a barricaded and reenforced position. Meanwhile, the guys in the back are concentrating on rear of the GB. The missile gunner pops up, aims, and fires at the right shoulder. And, yes, Virginia, in real life, you can aim a mini-missile launcher.

It would take awhile, but at the end of the day, the rifle squad MIGHT have lost a man or two. But the other side is out a multi-million dollar chunk of machinery.

Did you know that any squad-based weapons team firing those missiles will take minutes of dedicated fire with a CR-1 launcher, just to do this?

OK, let's say it's a hunter-killer team armed with CR-1 systems. We'll say 4 attacks each. 1 launch and move, 1 reload while moving, 1 launch and move, 1 reload while moving. That's 2 missiles per round, while on the move, using cover and concealment while on the move. That's 14 missiles per round into the GB, meaning the GB is scrap in 45 seconds. That's even discounting if the HK team had time to prepare the ambush site, and isn't using the terrain to their advantage beyond simple move and shoot.

Or that a Mark-V would have to blow the wad it carries in it's front launchers just to have a chance at killing the GB, not that it could though as a Glitterboy has a comparibly ranged weapon that it can use to completely destroy that Mark-V in a single round.

The Mark-V is an APC! That's Armored PERSONNEL CARRIER, not MAIN BATTLE TANK. You can blow and M113 or a Stryker into scrap with a single shot from an M1A2 main gun. Your point has no valid comparison. The APC should, according to doctrine, dismount its troops, and pull back to provide indirected fire support, or the pilot deserves to be drug out and shot.

Did you know that a Glitterboy's ammunition doesn't need a casing 5 times larger than the actual round just to carry enough powder-charge to fire it?

No. I have no idea how magnetic accelleration systems work.

Have you seen 1000 30mm rounds with the equivalent of a firing cap for a 12 gauge shotgun shell attached to them?

I've seen 1,000 30mm ROUNDS. The DU section. It's a big pile.

Would you theorize that they would infact take up less round by a considerable amount than a 1000 rounds of 30mm APDSDU?

Seeing as how the rounds are SEVEN INCHES long, I'd put forward that the round itself is comparible to the 30mm APDSDU, which is 6.5 inches long. Either way, it's a big pile.

Now, with an ammunition container, you just aren't talking the rounds by itself. You're talking the loading belt, the armor for the drum, and a lot of other stuff. This isn't 1,000 rounds hanging free, this is 1,000 rounds in a belt-fed drum, ala 30mm or 20mm chaingun, and that's a BIG and HEAVY drum.

Without mission variable munitions, a secondary or trinary weapon systems, multiple support, and some severe battlefield doctrinal changes, the GB isn't even as useful as a piece of junk Russian T-72. Seriously, it would have been cheaper to retrofit all the old M1A1 tanks with the GB gun, and a lot better. The tank could fire on the move, has a sleeker radar profile, could pack more armor, more rounds, be a more stable firing platform, and carry additional weapon systems.

Putting the Boomgun on a tank would've been alot better, yes. As to whether the GB is more usefull than a T-72; well, I don't know of any T-72s that can climb a mountain or fight a battle on the 100th floor of a sky-scraper. OR are NBC warfare approved.

Climb a mountain? Check Soviet Warfare in Afghanistan.

Fight a battle on the 100th floor of a skyscraper? Neither can a Glitter Boy. Go ahead, activate those pylons, fire that boom gun, and watch what happens to the floor when the pylons take up the recoil. Either A) The GB goes flying out a 100 story window and falls to the ground B) The floor is badly warped and damaged, maybe even pinning the pylons C) One pylon rips free and all hell breaks loose. I guess the pilot can use his secondary weaponry to.... oh, that's right, why bother with a secondary weapon, right?

Seriously? Flechettes? Check the Vietnam facts that everyone seems to be so in love with when they rattle off why physical prowess doesn't matter in combat. Flechettes are crap, tumble and lodge with the minimal cover, and are useful only to slaughter packed ranks of the enemy.

Not when those flechettes are saibot-round equivalents.

No. They aren't. No matter how many times you claim it is, that doesn't make it one.

They should have stuck with tungsten penetration with a discarding sabot. At least then, it could be called an anti-armor round.

Who says they didn't? Ever notice the complete lack of information on metals used?

Since it's a shotgun round containing "solid bar" ammunition, much like the steel core on some modern rounds, it's say it WASN'T a tungsten penetration hypervelocity round.

Either the Rifts Glitter Boy and the Chromium Guardsman armors are missing mission critical systems left out due to classified information, or their lab junk that the military turned down, and that's why they are found all over the place.
----This rant brought to you by Wild Turkey and professional dancers----

As sound as your post may seem to the casual viewer, it feels to me as if you forgot to put thought into it.

Your reply shows a critical lack of knowledge regarding land warfare systems and tactics.

Yes the boomgun itself would have seen a much more efficient use on a tank, but then again a bigger gun would see better use than a boomgun would on a tank.

They would have stuck with something the size of the Boomgun for the ability to fire on the move and into the arc of a turn. Armor tactics are much more intricate than "Shoot dat ting lawts!"

Yes, a Glitterboy works best as a supported unit;

IE: The PC Party.

they already elaborate on this in Free Quebec. But the Glitterboy isn't any less effective without supporting units as a stand-alone. That is, the supporting units are themselves tanks, and those tanks are worth a fixed amount. Like trying to make a dollar from change;a quarter is still a quarter, even if you used it for a greater purpose.

????? What's this got to do with anything?

The rest of it though (your rant) seems like uniformed conjecture;

Really?

we've all played the game here, but what I don't understand is how you've never seen the actual effectiveness of the PA itself. The weapons designed to combat and destroy it aren't even cost-effective, making it the superior machine in all respects.

BWAH-HA-HA! Only against untrained and under-armed opponents.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Rifts section of these forums, I present to you the type of thinking that led to the fiasco known as the Tolkeen War.

As for its role in a group; I tend to not want to be the support cast, therefore I don't like a Glitterboy in the party. As I said in my rant earlier, I don't like sitting around waiting for a fast-mover to get close just so I can have a turn at combat, while in the meantime I watch the Glitterboy do cool things.

What, you don't have weapons that shoot at range? You can't flank, provide cover fire or fire to pin down someone?

I'd say the problem isn't the GB in your group, it's your playing style.

[Talavar]

You know what I hope to never hear again while discussing Rifts? A highly-unfavourable comparison of Rifts tech. to real-world military equipment. To everyone who's a military expert: the designers of Rifts clearly knew less about the military than you. Congratulations. If you use real world military knowledge to tear apart the technological side of the setting, it's no more pointless than an expert in stage magic tearing apart the magical side of the setting. If that wrecks the game world for you, tough beans.

Just to go over some points I've seen for frequent debate or derision on these boards:

Ranges in Rifts are lower than the real world. At 2 miles, the boom gun has almost double the range of the next longest range weapons available to players (6000 feet). No one else who's not a military expert cares that in the real world the A222 Hosemaster can shoot 18 miles accurately. Deal with it.

Flechettes were chosen for the boom gun's ammo because they sounded cool, or that the PB staff thought they would be more damaging. If you know they aren't in real life, too bad.

The mach velocity of the Boom Gun was pulled out of the air as a random number that sounded fast (by the book it's Mach 5, by the way, not 2, at least as of RUE). If you've done the math to know that the mass times velocity of a boom gun round isn't enough greater than other weapons to justify the huge damage (and I've seen that math on here!), too bad.

The Glitter-boy got ret-conned into having a 1000 rounds. It's clearly not a typo as of RUE, because even the secondary cannister has 400 rounds. With RUE the size listings of the rounds has also been dropped, so assume the size of the individual rounds is smaller now. That's what ret-cons do. Deal with it.

The Glitter-boy isn't unmanueverable. With the special glitter-boy combat elite GB pilots get, a level 1 GB pilot in armour is going to have as many attacks per round as a juicer (and they'll soon surpass the juicer with leveling), and good bonuses even in melee combat. (Aside: In the terms of a lone juicer/crazy killing a GB in stand-up fighting, your GM went easy on you. All a glitter-boy has to do is simo-attack you and eat the presumably lower damage your character would be capable of. Unless your character had body armour with more than 700 MD, and a personal weapon doing more than 3d6x10 MD, you've lost once that starts happening. Even if the boom gun was unfireable for whatever reason, a GB could probably beat a juicer to death with simo-attack punches).

[Killer Cyborg]

You know what I hope to never hear again while discussing Rifts? A highly-unfavourable comparison of Rifts tech. to real-world military equipment. To everyone who's a military expert: the designers of Rifts clearly knew less about the military than you. Congratulations. If you use real world military knowledge to tear apart the technological side of the setting, it's no more pointless than an expert in stage magic tearing apart the magical side of the setting. If that wrecks the game world for you, tough beans.

Just to go over some points I've seen for frequent debate or derision on these boards:

Ranges in Rifts are lower than the real world. At 2 miles, the boom gun has almost double the range of the next longest range weapons available to players (6000 feet). No one else who's not a military expert cares that in the real world the A222 Hosemaster can shoot 18 miles accurately. Deal with it.

Flechettes were chosen for the boom gun's ammo because they sounded cool, or that the PB staff thought they would be more damaging. If you know they aren't in real life, too bad.

The mach velocity of the Boom Gun was pulled out of the air as a random number that sounded fast (by the book it's Mach 5, by the way, not 2, at least as of RUE). If you've done the math to know that the mass times velocity of a boom gun round isn't enough greater than other weapons to justify the huge damage (and I've seen that math on here!), too bad.

The Glitter-boy got ret-conned into having a 1000 rounds. It's clearly not a typo as of RUE, because even the secondary cannister has 400 rounds. With RUE the size listings of the rounds has also been dropped, so assume the size of the individual rounds is smaller now. That's what ret-cons do. Deal with it.

The Glitter-boy isn't unmanueverable. With the special glitter-boy combat elite GB pilots get, a level 1 GB pilot in armour is going to have as many attacks per round as a juicer (and they'll soon surpass the juicer with leveling), and good bonuses even in melee combat. (Aside: In the terms of a lone juicer/crazy killing a GB in stand-up fighting, your GM went easy on you. All a glitter-boy has to do is simo-attack you and eat the presumably lower damage your character would be capable of. Unless your character had body armour with more than 700 MD, and a personal weapon doing more than 3d6x10 MD, you've lost once that starts happening. Even if the boom gun was unfireable for whatever reason, a GB could probably beat a juicer to death with simo-attack punches).

I'm Killer Cyborg, and I approve of this message.

[T-Willard]

I'll admit, what I posted was a late night rant on the Glitter Boy at about 4AM after going without sleep for over 36 hours, and probably colored by personal irritation with other things.

I'll also admit, I don't own the RUE, so my data could be sorely lacking by changes made in the setting by the ret-cons currently going on. It's on order, and I expect it to be here tomorrow, so it might change my opinion on things.

Finally, I'll admit, my post would have ended with what I wrote at 4AM except for one small thing.

Saying I'm uniformed, that my post was obviously uninformed and un-thought out.

I'll admit, I went overboard on my reply. I'm irritated today, and it probably showed. Someone wanted to jump on a Wild Turkey and Stripper fueled rant, call me uninformed, then say my post is un-thought out, well, I felt it deserved a reply.

BUT, as for this...

To everyone who's a military expert: the designers of Rifts clearly knew less about the military than you.

While it may not have sounded like it in my Wild Turkey fueled rant, and the irritated followup, I've got a lot of respect for Sembedia and the Palladium staff, and I won't publically air my opinion on that aspect.




But, all in all, I WILL admit:

I went overboard in my reply, and probably would have dropped the issue had I not been accussed of being uninformed and my post ill thought out.

From here on out, consider it dropped on that matter.

[Killer Cyborg]

I went overboard in my reply, and probably would have dropped the issue had I not been accussed of being uninformed and my post ill thought out.

From here on out, consider it dropped on that matter.

Everybody goes overboard in their complaining from time to time (even/especially those who complain about people complaining, and the people complaining about them).
That's cool; there's a LOT to complain about.

And the more you know about a subject, the more transparent the flaws in the system are, simply because you know more than the writers (or care more about accuracy).
My parents, for example, cannot watch House without complaining about the inaccuracies. They still like the show, though, just as all of us who complain and nit-pick still like Rifts.

But when you get right down to it, the entire system is flawed. All RPGs are, because they're not real-life.

The mistake that a lot of people make with stuff like the Glitterboy is in tinkering with the in-game stats, when it's actually the flavor-text that's screwy.
While Kevin might not always know his stuff on the physics of weaponry, he's pretty damned solid on his game stats.
No good reason I can think of to change the part he's solid on in order to adhere to the parts of the text that he's weaker at.

In the end, things are never going to be perfect, and at some point we just have to shrug and play anyway.

[Dog_O_War]

I argue from one point of vantage; that of in-game.
I leave theory for speculation and do not hold it adamant.

Blah blah blah, **blending reality with in-game to make my arguement seem like I pwn**^

^shortened to the point that T-Willard didn't actually say this, it is just edited for both satire and to high-light the message he sends out.


I cannot debate nor argue with you, only point out the utter flaw of your rantings.
The reason I cannot argue with you is because you have not made a single coherent point.

The projectile goes at MACH-Two, it's the WORST anti-aircraft gun ever. It's range is 2 miles. Big deal. You know what happens in the real world? The pilot locks the armor from 7 miles out, launches the AGM-114 Hellfire from 4 miles out, banks off. Glitter Boy go boom. Meanwhile some ground pig with a Stinger Missile system hiding in a hole blows the aircraft out of the air with the MACH 4 missile that was fired 4 miles away from the plane.

The weapons you list are SDC in the world of Rifts.
If you had meant a medium-range MD missile, those only do as much as the Glitterboys' gun, but cost 10,000 times as much to fire. It would take 8 missiles on average to do in the Glitterboy.

As for squad-based weapons; your missile wouldn't even bust the antenna as it is an SDC weapon.
If you meant an MDC missile, the largest is a short-range missile which could only blow a retrofitted vintage modern aircraft out of the sky. Otherwise you're looking at mini-missiles, which not only fly slower than a boomgun round, but have less range too.

Also, at 8 miles out the Glitterboys' radar can detect mini-missiles, which are about 20 times smaller than your short to medium-range missile. The Glitterboy can easily shoot this out of the sky.
Hell, a farmer in Rifts could shoot it out of the sky with a C-14 (apparently).

Yeah, just like tanks are so effective against infantry. We did a playtest once. Just for fun. Armed 100 level 1 infantry with assault rifles loaded with APDSDU rounds (3 MD per burst) and placed them on the edges of the valley, and figured average everything. The GB was destroyed in 2 rounds. He killed 12 infantrymen.

Except for that a Glitterboy outranges them for miles, and has a speed listed in MPH. It doesn't take all day to plant and retract the pitons, so he could literally trail them like a kite (called "kiting") and they wouldn't even get a hit in. So unless these infantrymen can A- move at 61mph, or B- have some unique method of travelling a mile in under 15 seconds, you failed the test.

**** poor range. **** poor fire operations.

Let's be honest, looking at it from a pure armored cavalry point, the GB looks good, but it could be used better, cheaper, and not require extensive troop retraining and doctrinal changes.

Well I just checked the range of every tank in the game, and everything short of the Fire Storm Mobile Fortress has about 5,000 feet of distance to make up (about a mile) before they are actually in-range of the boomgun. So unless you found some crazy rules on arcing, you'll never get that close to kill off a Glitterboy in two rounds.

ANd 10X more obvious and 10X slower and 10X less maneuverable and 10X more ineffective in an urban area and 10X more likely to eat missiles.

On average A Juicer moves at 45 mph (1/4 less than a GB)
On average a Juicer has less bonuses in both hth and ranged combat, so I fail to see how the GB is ineffective.
As for manueverability, they are fully articulated machines, capable of performing any action a human can. In addition, they add to both jumping and moving speed (both greater than that of a Juicer) so I don't see the Juicer being more manueverable in any place besides an airduct.

Only if you're facing an untrained Juicer who was a 90 year old parapalegic before conversion.

Well, lets see here; the Jucier OCC gives...
equal attacks as a GB's RC:E at first level only.
2 initiative over RC:E
1 point disarm over RC:E
1 less pull punch than RC:E
auto-dodge, and at 1 point; RC:E doesn't have auto-dodge.
RC:E gives 2 points to strike in both melee and ranged over the Juicer.

+2 dodge over the Juicer.
+2 parry over the Juicer.

The Juicer (on average) has a +1 bonus to strike, parry and dodge if he takes both gymnastics and acrobatics,
so that puts the Juicer still one point to strike in melee behind, one point of parry behind, and pne point of dodge behind. But with the additions of gymnastics and acrobatics, he now has 4 points of roll over RC:E
This is under the assumption they have the same HtH skill.


At this point now everyone can see that you clearly have little to no idea of what you are talking about. You neither ran the numbers nor picked a reality to argue from. You continue to jump back and forth from what real weapons are like to what in-game weapons are like.
You didn't even get the Juicers' numbers correct; you'll note that a Glitterboy has a +4 bonus to hit with his boomgun, while you only have a +2 bonus to autododge. You're getting hit 100% of the time (on average).

You argue that SDC weapons will kill a glitterboy from miles away, and that tanks have weapons capable of harming a Glitterboy (within reason; 1d4 isn't "harm") at a range further than the boomgun - neither of which are true.
You then go on to argue that men with missiles are killing Glitterboys from holes; It takes (as I listed before) 22 plasma mini-missiles to kill a Glitterboy. A single squad cannot fire more than 4 per round, and a Glitterboy can eliminate up to 7 personnel per round. It sounds like you're looking at a loss of 40 men per Glitterboy.

This is why I cannot argue with you.

Also, I didn't even need to be a military novice to see that you were 100% wrong from the start; I just had to know basic math.

You make no sense.

[Drakenred®™©]

ok first off, what your not happy with the background or stats or anything about the GB USE HOUSE RULES TO FIX IT!

For example, I have long allowed both anti personell fletchets and Anti Vehicular solid rounds to be used on the GB, along with some "FX" loads (the origninals are BP-HE, Airburst frag, Teargas, "Mega Rubber batton"(1D4 MDC and Knockdown/stun effect on target under 300ft), and incidiary type "Grenade" loads) (new ones include silver fletchet (if you have to ask. . .), wood stake, and holy water filled canister) and "redid" the GB to hold 10 100 round "belts" of ammo (takes 3 melee actions to unload and reload the feeds)

[T-Willard]

I already stated, as per request....

I'm done on this subject.

[Dog_O_War]

There are places a GB could go that a tank couldn't, there is nowhere a tank could go that a GB couldn't.

Tanks-only members bar.

[Dog_O_War]

There are places a GB could go that a tank couldn't, there is nowhere a tank could go that a GB couldn't.

Tanks-only members bar.

"GB, ah, but I AM a tank."
'Sorry bub, tanks only.'
*GB raises his boom gun and takes aim*
'Ok ok, geez, go on in.'

That's like a martial artist walking into a biker bar. As tough as the martial artist is, those bikers will eventually get him.

Eventually.

[Rahmota]

Whoa, bud. You can't state that a Juicer's job isn't that; it very well might be. Beyond PA, whos' job would that be? While the Juicer can stealth, his "job" within a PC group is dependant on how the player wishes to see his character.

What you're stating here is that he can't have said job because of Glitterboys. And infact when there isn't a Glitterboy in the party, the Juicers' job is usually "A daylight charge across open ground into the jaws of certain death". Someones' gotta get up there and disable or combat the enemy, and the Juicer is often the only one fast enough and crazy enough to do it.

Each character's job within the party has to be what the strategy and tactics are. Of course the strategy and tactics should take into the factor the strength and weaknesses of each character. Like the strength of a Juicer is his speed, autododge, enhanced strnegth and training as a super assassin. As it says in the books.

A GB is an artillery support and replacement for a main battle tank. Its role in most strategies and tactics is rather limited. For anythign requiring subtle and stealth tactics the GB is very very bad. For anything requiring a delicate touch the GB is the wrong tool. Sort of like using a shotgun to go mouse hunting.

[Dog_O_War]

Each character's job within the party has to be what the strategy and tactics are. Of course the strategy and tactics should take into the factor the strength and weaknesses of each character. Like the strength of a Juicer is his speed, autododge, enhanced strnegth and training as a super assassin. As it says in the books.

Really? Well Juicers can't read, so they don't know that. What I'm saying is that a book offering a suggestion does not equate must/will.
I've never played a single game where there has been a Juicer that has acted in this manner (assassin role); they tend to just be high on themselves (as Juicers would be) thinking they can take on the world.

A GB is an artillery support and replacement for a main battle tank. Its role in most strategies and tactics is rather limited. For anythign requiring subtle and stealth tactics the GB is very very bad. For anything requiring a delicate touch the GB is the wrong tool. Sort of like using a shotgun to go mouse hunting.

Well for one, you would use a shotgun to go mouse-hunting; they're awful hard to hit with a single bullet - most likely a .22 if anything. But you don't use buckshot, you choose sand or rocksalt or something. Possibly only a 4-10 instead of a 12 or 20 gauge. That aside...

Here is the crazy thing; I could never find a single place in any book I've read that barred the use of the prowl skill with powered armour, or found a listed penalty whilst suited up. So you might be a 10 foot tall shiny man, but you can take care of the shiny and you apparently have no prowl penalty. Additionally GBs can use other weapons besides the boomgun, and even start with such thanks to the class. Since they start with the best bonus to strike (that I can find) having an operator attach an additional "quiet" weapon to the laser-targetting system would offer that the Glitterboy would make a half-decent covert operative as well.

[Rahmota]

What I'm saying is that a book offering a suggestion does not equate must/will.

No it doesnt. I'm not saying it is a must will situation either. However what I am saying is that certain classes where created with certain skills, strengths and abilities in certain roles better than other skills. There is room for a hyper loudmouth flashy jock Juicer but ther eis also room for the supsneaky hyper effective ultra bond assassin/spy/thief.

I've never played a single game where there has been a Juicer that has acted in this manner (assassin role); they tend to just be high on themselves (as Juicers would be) thinking they can take on the world.

And I have played in a game like that. One of my friends played a Juicer Assassin/Superspy in an NGR game who unless he was on an active duty just claimed to be a cyborg. (We do not play with the visible tubes and harness junk on our Juicers as that would just be a liability. Pull one of the tubes and no more juice.) Flashy, Overconfident, cocky characters have a short life span in our games. Basically make a target out of yourself and the enemy will oblige.

Well for one, you would use a shotgun to go mouse-hunting; they're awful hard to hit with a single bullet - most likely a .22 if anything. But you don't use buckshot, you choose sand or rocksalt or something. Possibly only a 4-10 instead of a 12 or 20 gauge. That aside...

Yes well that is true. I was using a figure of speech to illustrate the overkill factor of the GB main gun for some jobs. However I would agree that a 410 with a rocksalt loadout would be most appropriate for most rodent hunts....

Here is the crazy thing; I could never find a single place in any book I've read that barred the use of the prowl skill with powered armour, or found a listed penalty whilst suited up.

Yeah I noticed that. I find that rather wrong and strange that a regular suit of body armor gives a prowl penalty but a 10 foot tall 1 ton shiny silver suit doesnt give you a prowl penalty.(one of the thigns we fixed in our house rules. 10% prowl penalty per ton of weight for all robots. Yes this leads to some of them being as sneaky as the Trex in Jurrassic Park.)

[R Ditto]

Apparently some info got burried/ignored due to some huge posts.

Some quick points of the 'majority' stats.
Muzzle Velocity:
Mach 5.
Only the old RMB, and my 1993 copy of MiO, lists it as Mach 2. Everything else is mach 5, which makes perfect sense.


Ammo Capacity:
100.
Old RMB, Mutants in Orbit, Free Quebec and Japan all list it as 100 rounds. Heck, even the Triax version holds 100 rounds!


Ammo size:
Based on the old pics from the old RMB.
Boom Gun cartridge is 7in long, and based on the drawings, makes it 2in wide. That's 50mm, not 30mm.
That puts a cartridge at roughly 28 cubic inches in size.

The 'slugs' are shown also in the old RMB, listed as 1in long, which based on the drawings, makes them 1/5th of an inch in diameter. Or a slightly smaller diameter than a 5.56mm round, such as used by the M16 assault rifle

Doesn't seem like much, except that a 5.56mm round will shoot through more or less any part of a car (except maybe the engine), punch through bullet proof vests, etc, and these are longer and roughly twice as fast as a 5.56mm round...

Ammo weight:
Based on these measurements, and considering a 'good' AP material like tungsten is used, the total cartridge comes out to roughly 3.5 pounds.

Comparison
Take 200 5.56mm rounds, make them 50% heavier, and make them go twice as fast, and you got damage equal to a Boom Gun shot...
5.56mm. 5D6, 5-30
double speed, 10D6, 10-60
+50% weight, 15D6, 15-90.
Multiply by 200, 3000D6, 3000-18000, or 3D6x10 MD, 30-180 MD
freaky, or a sign the original Boom Gun was actually made to be a sensible weapon that makes sense in some ways?

So...
With these numbers, MOST Rifts books have numbers that basically say the GB will have 100 rounds, weighing roughly 350 pounds and taking up 2,800 cubic inches, or 1.6 cubic feet of space. That means of 867 pounds of boom gun weapon system, roughly 500 is gun, 350 is ammo, plus whatever the weight of the ammo drum.
That's 3000-18000 MD of potential damage. More than enough ammo, but not to much, enough to take out a few dozen tanks if lucky.
Holy crap, more about the original GB that makes perfect sense!

The nonsense in the new Rifts book says it has 1000 rounds (plus backup drum of 400 rounds) making it a total of 3,500 (4,900) pounds total and taking up 16.2 (22.7) cubic feet of space, and pack 30,000 (42,000)- 180,000 (252,000) of potential MD... enough to wipe out several dozen Firestorm mobile bases... You would need 4,500-6,300 rail gun bursts (at 1D4x10 MD for a 40 round burst) to compare to that amount of ammo/potential damage...
I would say comparison to a pair of refridgerators needed to store that much ammo is right on the dot...
Even if it did have 30mm rounds, which makes no sense based on all previous books, that's still 700-1,400 pounds just for ammo, and maybe 5-7 cubic feet of space, so that is still to much weight and to much space for the GB to be packing, and then the gun would be lacking the punch needed to do the damage it does.

Retcon stuff is annoying, retcon that makes absolutely no sense at all is even more annoying.
What's next? Letting the CS have a 5 pound heavy pistol that holds a half dozen LRM warheads and which can fit concealed in the typical pocket protector? A new DHT that is the size of a bus which can carry several platoons full of stuff

There are places a GB could go that a tank couldn't, there is nowhere a tank could go that a GB couldn't.

Tanks-only members bar.

"GB, ah, but I AM a tank."
'Sorry bub, tanks only.'
*GB raises his boom gun and takes aim*
'Ok ok, geez, go on in.'

More like "Get that pea shooter out of my face, I've seen old geezer tanks with guns bigger than that, and you probably couldn't even scratch Chobam with that overgrown vermin hunting shotgun."

Heck, the modern 120mm DU APFSDS will probably take out a GB pilot in one shot... probably go out the other side of the GB in the process... (ignoring the stats that say the cannons secretly use nerf foam, soft clay and sponges for ammo...)




On the subject of Prowl.
Why should it get a penalty? Maybe it doesn't sound like a rusty Tin Man when it moves. It is an advanced power armor, and perhaps the budget for making the cannon absurdly loud and the armor insanely and ridiculously shiny meant they ran out of money to put in stuff that makes it sound like a banshee screaming if it so much as twitches a finger... or else they figured the shiny armor was 'loud' enough for it.

Just has to be quiet when it moves, Prowl doesn't exactly mention much about being unseen, just quiet, slow and stealthy.
A Stealth Bomber is easily seen if you stand next to it, and those things can be stealthy when it comes to getting past enemy detection.
Although common sense still has to be used when it comes to prowl... camo paint and camo ponchos help also.
Not getting shot at by every non laser weapon in existance is far better than taking half damage from one of the weakest energy weapons infantry and vehicles can have...

[Dog_O_War]

As was posted before, the rounds are not as large as everyone thinks they are.

As was posted before, drawings are not canon.

As was posted before, boomgun rounds are not made out of any materials you claim them to be, unless you claim them to be made out of a slightly ferrous mega-damage material.

As was posted before, it is 1000 rounds; two of the most recent books confirm this (Free Quebec - THEE book on Glitterboys, and Rifts: Ultimate Edition, the edition with the most up to date information and rules set).

As was posted before, the small hip-cannister does contain 400 rounds - this is possible because (again) the rounds are not as large as you think they are.

Finally, you can disagree with these facts all you want, but unless you can post information from the books on this subject that is more recent than FQ or R:UE, your claims are unfounded and false.

[Rahmota]

Well why should a giant heavy robot/PA get a prowl penalty? Well let me tell you.

While the armor itself may not make a lot of noise it is still going to make noise. An unnatural human soid form the cooling systems, servos activating, metal on metal as the pilot's body kinesthetics are dimmed and dulled by the suit's lack of sensitivity for them. Seismic shock on the ground as all that weight is concentrated into two very small footprints (relatively speaking). Forget sneaking in a forest as trees, shrubs, underbrush will all be crushed and ripped and torn even by the best pilot. On sand or gravel there will be a loud crunshing sound. On pavement there will be the loud crunching sound as the pavement is destroyed by the weight of the suit just walking across it.

PA/robots need to have a prowl penalty if human sized body armor is going to have one.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well why should a giant heavy robot/PA get a prowl penalty? Well let me tell you.

While the armor itself may not make a lot of noise it is still going to make noise. An unnatural human soid form the cooling systems, servos activating, metal on metal as the pilot's body kinesthetics are dimmed and dulled by the suit's lack of sensitivity for them. Seismic shock on the ground as all that weight is concentrated into two very small footprints (relatively speaking). Forget sneaking in a forest as trees, shrubs, underbrush will all be crushed and ripped and torn even by the best pilot. On sand or gravel there will be a loud crunshing sound. On pavement there will be the loud crunching sound as the pavement is destroyed by the weight of the suit just walking across it.

PA/robots need to have a prowl penalty if human sized body armor is going to have one.

Look here.

[Dog_O_War]

afaik, there are only a few suits of PA that can prowl at all, (the SF power 'jump suit' from Japan being 1)

Actually, there are only a few suits that offer a prowl if you didn't have one already.

Well why should a giant heavy robot/PA get a prowl penalty? Well let me tell you.

While the armor itself may not make a lot of noise it is still going to make noise. An unnatural human soid form the cooling systems, servos activating, metal on metal as the pilot's body kinesthetics are dimmed and dulled by the suit's lack of sensitivity for them. Seismic shock on the ground as all that weight is concentrated into two very small footprints (relatively speaking). Forget sneaking in a forest as trees, shrubs, underbrush will all be crushed and ripped and torn even by the best pilot. On sand or gravel there will be a loud crunshing sound. On pavement there will be the loud crunching sound as the pavement is destroyed by the weight of the suit just walking across it.

PA/robots need to have a prowl penalty if human sized body armor is going to have one.

Why shouldn't they? Well, the Spider-Scout walker has a prowl of 40% and it has everything you've listed here, except in greater number because it's a giant robot, not a suit of PA. More impact points (actually, this helps spread the weight out, but still), smaller feet that impact deeper into soft ground, even less sensitivity than a suit of PA due to it being a robot, is heavier than most PAs, and more than twice the joints and servos.

And yet this thing can still prowl.

Really, I think the biggest issue of why PA's don't have a prowl penalty and armour does is because PA's support their own weight, making the thing less restrictive. You'll note that PA also has no movement penalties either.

These are the reasons I can fathom why they shouldn't have a prowl penalty.

[glitterboy2098]

As was posted before, the rounds are not as large as everyone thinks they are.

except for the fact the size information was reprinted in RUe, albiet at a reduced but still readible size.

As was posted before, drawings are not canon.

except for the fact the palladium staff considers them canon. at least, from an appearance standpoint. it's only the events depicted that aren't.

As was posted before, boomgun rounds are not made out of any materials you claim them to be, unless you claim them to be made out of a slightly ferrous mega-damage material.

except for the fact the materials the flettchets are made of were reprinted in RUE, albiet at reduced but still readable size.

As was posted before, it is 1000 rounds; two of the most recent books confirm this (Free Quebec - THEE book on Glitterboys, and Rifts: Ultimate Edition, the edition with the most up to date information and rules set).

of which only WB:FQ represents a non cut and paste instance of a glitterboy with 1000 rounds. but given that said instance also added mach 5 and mention of depth limits and underwater performance as outlined in WB7, can easly be the result of a typo and well meaning editors.

As was posted before, the small hip-cannister does contain 400 rounds - this is possible because (again) the rounds are not as large as you think they are.

except, as mentioned above, by RUE canon they are as big as we think they are.

Finally, you can disagree with these facts all you want, but unless you can post information from the books on this subject that is more recent than FQ or R:UE, your claims are unfounded and false.

actually they are founded on evidence, reason, logic, and an understanding of palladium practises. our claims are quite true (the listed amounts are larger in volume than possible and mass than the GB).

[Dog_O_War]

As was posted before, the rounds are not as large as everyone thinks they are.

except for the fact the size information was reprinted in RUe, albiet at a reduced but still readible size.

Note that in FQ, these were claimed in the book as a canon mis-report (as they did for the speed of the round).

As was posted before, drawings are not canon.

except for the fact the palladium staff considers them canon.

Oh really? I've got a three drawings of the exact same red 'borg, with the exact same 'borg railgun.
All of them are in different proportions with differently sized weapons. Which is the true 'borg railgun; which is the true red 'borg? They are both line-models, so none of them "broke the mold".

Point here is that drawings are not canon.

As was posted before, boomgun rounds are not made out of any materials you claim them to be, unless you claim them to be made out of a slightly ferrous mega-damage material.

except for the fact the materials the flettchets are made of were reprinted in RUE, albiet at reduced but still readable size.

Post the materials then and prove me wrong.

As was posted before, it is 1000 rounds; two of the most recent books confirm this (Free Quebec - THEE book on Glitterboys, and Rifts: Ultimate Edition, the edition with the most up to date information and rules set).

of which only WB:FQ represents a non cut and paste instance of a glitterboy with 1000 rounds. but given that said instance also added mach 5 and mention of depth limits and underwater performance as outlined in WB7, can easly be the result of a typo and well meaning editors.

FQ did not add mach 5; it changed mach 2 to mach 5, which means they were paying attention to details. Which means they were fully aware of the typos. Beyond this, post factual information that this was a typo.

As was posted before, the small hip-cannister does contain 400 rounds - this is possible because (again) the rounds are not as large as you think they are.

except, as mentioned above, by RUE canon they are as big as we think they are.

That's fine. "Big" and "quantity" are two different things.

Finally, you can disagree with these facts all you want, but unless you can post information from the books on this subject that is more recent than FQ or R:UE, your claims are unfounded and false.

actually they are founded on evidence, reason, logic, and an understanding of palladium practises. our claims are quite true (the listed amounts are larger in volume than possible and mass than the GB).

The evidence presented is not current, therefore invalid. It is akin to claiming Dodge never remade the Challenger after 1983, and then providing car magazines dated to before 2004 as proof. You need current information to make evidence valid.

Finally, real-world reason and logic have no place in the Palladium world. This is due to FIREBALL! That is, reason and logic dictate that a fireball cannot exist (as well as science), yet they do within the Palladium megaverse.

[glitterboy2098]

actually, i was pointing out our claims, our side of the debate, is valid. it is the issue of who is correct that is in debate.

so you cannot say our claims are false, since our claims are quite true.

as for big and quantity, yes they are two different things, but in this case they are linked. by canon, glitterboy slugs are still listed as 7 inches long and shown t be 2inches wide. and yet it is also listed as somehow packing 1000 of them, a feat not possible considering the size and mass listed for both the shells and the GB itself.

so the issue become: do we ignore 18 years of ancillary evidence as to the size and mass of the round, or do we ignore the single segment listing a payload not physically possible given the other evidence?

as for the artwork, some variation in porportions are to be expected. but the appearance of that borg has not changed. the appearance is canon.

the glitterboy has had the same appearance for almost twenty years. if art was not canon, you'd see more variation in design of the USA-G10.


as for reason and logic....wrong. it does have a place in RIFTs. Kevin himself has said so. (Gateway to the megaverse podcast #38).

[LostOne]

GB does huge damage and penalizes the team with the boomgun sound.

GB can't fit into buildings, if you're running a game where it is expected to be inside a lot, you're saving the player from sitting out of the game a lot.

GBs need repair when taking damage, if the game is expected to move to a location where MDC materials are scarce or non-existent, the GM is again saving the player from potential problems.

There may be reasons the GM doesn't want to share because it could spoil something or cause speculation among the players in a direction the GM doesn't want them anticipating.

[Talavar]

The art with the size measurements for boom gun rounds has been cut and pasted into every edition of the Rifts Main book. It's clear that when ever they decided the Glitterboy needed more ammo, they either forgot about that mention in the art, hoped it would be reprinted too small for people to still read, or didn't care because it's cool art. I'm betting on that last one.

You can argue that "by canon" the GB rounds are 7 inches long, but "by canon" it also holds a thousand. One of these instances of canon is 20 year old artwork, the other is a rewrite for the newest revision of Rifts. Change whichever one you think is appropriate in you own games - because one of them must change - but don't go around arguing that the book listing the GB's ammo capacity is wrong because of a drawing clearly out of line with the most recent version of the rules.

[Balabanto]

The Glitter Boy is usually something my PC's parked on a hill, and fired from far away, behind cover. Glitter Boys didn't take as much damage to armor as wizards did. The problem with the GB, and all other powered armor suits, is the 1000 Credits per point of MDC that you need to repair the stupid thing. The problem with power armor is that it's not cheap, and a slow, low mobility suit of power armor like the GB means you need to have a distracting assault before it gets into position (AND GBs are difficult to hide).

[Drakenred®™©]

not realy

a 20 ft tall robot is tough to hide

an 8ft tall 12 ft wide M-1 Abrams can be tough to hide

by comparison a GB can be hidden in the bed of a large pick up truck by a tarp. and can walk into my garage at home without taking out the center suport between the doors.

Heck it could probably walk in through my front door!