Which book is the best ?

Lenwen · Unread post by **Lenwen** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:09 pm

After the main book which Night Bane book do you guys think is the best written an overall the best ?

-Lenwen.

runebeo · Unread post by **runebeo** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:43 pm

Night Lands is so packed with great stuff. With the main book and this book you can run the game for years and years. The other books don't seem to add too much to the game in my opinion.

Incriptus · Unread post by **Incriptus** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:01 pm

Seeing as how my favorite aspect of nightbane is the spook squad I have a soft spot for between the shadows . . . plus the astral plane being discribed is a huge plus for any palladium (or any game for that matter) game.

Through the looking glass darkly is also a briliant book, useful for any game, period . . . plus it can be simply fun to read.

Rallan · Unread post by **Rallan** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:15 am

I'd say "Through The Glass Darkly" is the best-written, introduces themes and ideas that are a lot more sophisticated than your standard Palladium fare, and is without a doubt the best sourcebook on magic that they've ever published.

That being said though, it's not very Nightbaney. The Nightbane-related stuff doesn't fit particularly well with canon, and would radically change the feel of a campaign that uses it. As for the rest, it could just as easily be dropped into other games. Take out the Nightbane-specific bits, and you've got virtually a whole book worth of Beyond The Supernatural source material. The new magic classes would make very distinctive HU characters, and the cults and sorcerous orders would make nifty villain organizations.

Vidynn · Unread post by **Vidynn** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:30 am

My favorite one is Between the Shadows - great material. But I like them all.

Rallan · Unread post by **Rallan** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:48 am

Petite Elfgirl wrote:But I have a special place in my heart for Through the Glass Darkly. I disagree with Rallan about it not being "Nightbaney;" who says a sourcebook has to cater to the Nightbane? If we get a sourcebook on Guardians, would that be not very "Nightbaney"?

Oh I didn't just mean not very Nightbaney in the sense that there's not much material on the Nightbane and their factions, I meant it more in the sense that there's not much for the Nightbane RPG itself. Apart from a bit of stuff about Nemeses (which is a "use at your own risk" idea because it radically changes the feel of the whole game) and a look at the Seekers (who could be dropped virtually unchanged into a Beyond the Supernatural campaign), there really isn't much stuff that's specific to the Nightbane RPG. Like I said before, you wouldn't need to drop much material to be able to pass TtGD off as a Beyond The Supernatural sourcebook, and there's slabs of stuff that could be used as-is for NPCs and factions in a dark and magical HU campaign.

This doesn't stop it from being among the best Palladium books ever of course, it's just that "being a Nightbane sourcebook" isn't what it's best at

Warwolf · Unread post by **Warwolf** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:21 pm

Rallan wrote:Oh I didn't just mean not very Nightbaney in the sense that there's not much material on the Nightbane and their factions, I meant it more in the sense that there's not much for the Nightbane RPG itself. Apart from a bit of stuff about Nemeses (which is a "use at your own risk" idea because it radically changes the feel of the whole game) and a look at the Seekers (who could be dropped virtually unchanged into a Beyond the Supernatural campaign), there really isn't much stuff that's specific to the Nightbane RPG. Like I said before, you wouldn't need to drop much material to be able to pass TtGD off as a Beyond The Supernatural sourcebook, and there's slabs of stuff that could be used as-is for NPCs and factions in a dark and magical HU campaign.

This doesn't stop it from being among the best Palladium books ever of course, it's just that "being a Nightbane sourcebook" isn't what it's best at

I'll disagree with the "not very Nightbane" part of this opinion as well. Just because it adds a large amount of new material without directly tying the majority of it to previously mentioned material means very little. It was meant to expand on the setting and give Nightbane GM's more options (which I think we agree that it did) and managed to enhance the "dark supernatural horror" feel that is inherent in the setting.

On the topic of BtS and Nightbane, I find BtS to make pretty good source material to add to Nightbane.

As far as a favorite sourcebook, Between the Shadows is what hooked me into Nightbane to begin with. Thus, it has a special place in my reckoning of the series.

Incriptus · Unread post by **Incriptus** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:53 pm

Yeah personally i've always seen BTS and NB to be very close cousins, in much the same way I've always secretly considered Ninjas & Super-spies to be a source book for Heroes Unlimited

UR Leader Hobbes · Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:47 pm

It really depends on what your looking for...

More magic go with Through the Glass Darkly. More Nightlords and their minions go with the Nightlands. Need more on Spook Squad, the astral plain and the Dreamstream, then Between the Shadows..

Don't bother with Shadows of Light. It's a waste of time and money as it does more to make Nightbane more Rifts like then to actually maintain the setting.

gaby · Unread post by **gaby** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:50 am

I like Through the Glass Darkly.

IT have good,info on magic.

Lenwen · Unread post by **Lenwen** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:54 pm

Colonel Lyboc wrote:I'll put in another vote for Between the Shadows. There's just so much cool stuff. What I like best about it is that it works so well for other games; Beyond the Supernatural, HU, even Rifts or Palladium Fantasy.

Through the Glass Darkly is also a great sourcebook, but is even more divorced from the Nightbane concept than Between the Shadows. I agree with other posters who have said it works better as a Beyond the Supernatural book.

Shadows of Light has some good stuff, but it is definitely the weakest of the bunch.

Hmmm. Now that I think about it, I guess I'm really saying, in a roundabout way, that Nightlands is actually the best Nightbane book, since its the only one that fits totally with the main book setting.

thats what I was going to say lmao

drewkitty ~..~ · Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:30 pm

The 'Through the Glass Darkly' book for it's Megaversal Magic Creation Rules/Guidelines.

acreRake · Unread post by **acreRake** » Sat May 10, 2008 2:53 am

Between the Shadows is my favorite. I was going to say "by far" but that's not true at all. I like/use TtGD almost as much and Nightlands is a great/useful/cool book too.

/don't have SoL

Rockwolf66 · Unread post by **Rockwolf66** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:19 pm

Petite Elfgirl wrote:
Misfit KotLD wrote:Did he cry like a little girl with a skinned knee?

Hey, I resemble that!

"One order of healing touch comming right up, NEXT!"

As far as the books go the one I tend to use the most after the main book and the parts of Shadows of Light relating to my PC is Between the Shadows.

Rockwolf66 · Unread post by **Rockwolf66** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:31 pm

Shadows of light could have been alot better. the stuff that's a re-release from the Rifter is fun but the other stuff is just smashed together.

As for your knee...who said I was going to touch you? Most males are not Misfit :eek:

by the way. I was just calling for the nearest psychic healer in this madhouse.

Rockwolf66 · Unread post by **Rockwolf66** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:44 pm

Petite Elfgirl wrote:
Rockwolf66 wrote:Shadows of light could have been alot better. the stuff that's a re-release from the Rifter is fun but the other stuff is just smashed together.

You mean they re-release stuff from previous Rifters into official canon at times? Does that mean it might not even be worthwhile to get, as it'll eventually come out in a book? (Maybe that's a topic for a new thread . . . )

yeah the stuff in Shadows of light was based off something out of Rifter #16 if I remember corectly. There's also the occational cannon material reliced in the Rifters. As far as Shadows of Light goes, the origional Rifter article has most of the good stuff in it.

Rockwolf66 wrote:As for your knee...who said I was going to touch you? Most males are not Misfit by the way. I was just calling for the nearest psychic healer in this madhouse.

You did.
Rockwolf66 wrote:"One order of healing touch comming right up, NEXT!"

"Healing touch" kind of requires something to make it work, like . . . oh, I don't know . . . TOUCH!?

I just said that you needed a healing touch not that I would touch you. I'm sorry but a pointy-eared,bunny-hugging, little dandylion eater is not to my tastes in females. Now if you were a morally questionable she-devil who's hobies include collecting sharp and pointy objects then...thats a whole nother matter.

runebeo · Unread post by **runebeo** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:14 pm

After Shadows of light being discontinued does this end the Nightbane series? Any talk of any new Nightbane books lately?

Warwolf · Unread post by **Warwolf** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:52 am

runebeo wrote:After Shadows of light being discontinued does this end the Nightbane series? Any talk of any new Nightbane books lately?

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/press/press2008-05d.html

The very bottom of the page in the new releases.

Marcethus · Unread post by **Marcethus** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:17 am

Hopefully they actually bring out a new book.

as to which book is best I use Between the shadows alot

runebeo · Unread post by **runebeo** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:12 am

Thanks I was worried. Shadows of light wasn't that great, but I enjoy the Nightbane line, it has a great setting that a lot of people who enjoy modern horror movies like Blade, Hellboy, Constantine, Wishmaster, A Nightmare on Elm Street and Hellraiser would enjoy this line if they were aware of series.

Incriptus · Unread post by **Incriptus** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:57 pm

Petite Elfgirl wrote:

Get your hand offa my knee!

I'm sorry I thought that was my inner thigh

Petite Elfgirl wrote:I heard Shadows of Light was a bust. But I really enjoy Between the Shadows. Knowing about the astral plane had always been one of my main interests. The dreamstream isn't bad, either . . .

I like the chunk of Shadows that involved the spoke squad

Rockwolf66 · Unread post by **Rockwolf66** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:42 am

[Hands the pointy eared chick the keys to the cluebat room and just walks away.]

Rockwolf66 · Unread post by **Rockwolf66** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:08 pm

Misfit KotLD wrote:
Rockwolf66 wrote:[Hands the pointy eared chick the keys to the cluebat room and just walks away.]

Don't be upset just because you lacked the clarity you thought you had.

Misfit, I know you were a Marine and as such your reading ability is sub-standard. Did you somehow manage to miss the post by someone who admits to touching said pointy eared chick?

Maybe I should make you read the entire Nightbane series and then write a thesis about the socio-religious structure of Nightlord Society.

Marcethus · Unread post by **Marcethus** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:00 pm

LordVarandus wrote:between the shadows....awesome book, more detailed astral plain realy cleaned up the mess they left it as in rifts descriptions, and the dreamstream astral and most everything integrates into other game genres like heroes unlim and rifts or palladium fantasy NICELY!

Agreed though Through the Glass Darkly is also a good book for usefulness with all the Magic Creation rules and living magics stuff.

Specter · Unread post by **Specter** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:35 pm

Best is a strong word... they each bring something new. I like Shadows of Light the most but I'm not sure if it's the best. I just like some of the occs/rccs in it...

Marcethus · Unread post by **Marcethus** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:24 am

Shadows of Light has alot of good things in it true. What I want is what got cut out of that book. Like the stuff on the Knights Templar.

Specter · Unread post by **Specter** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:24 am

Me to... I begged for it but the author said it was palladium property and couldn't give it out.

Marcethus · Unread post by **Marcethus** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:56 pm

yup He has tried to get pB to release it as well onto the cutting room floor or anything but KS nixed it. *sigh*

Specter · Unread post by **Specter** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:09 pm

Marcethus wrote:yup He has tried to get pB to release it as well onto the cutting room floor or anything but KS nixed it. *sigh*

I really don't understand why he wouldn't release that information. It seems kind of immature.

Warwolf · Unread post by **Warwolf** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:00 pm

Specter wrote:
Marcethus wrote:yup He has tried to get pB to release it as well onto the cutting room floor or anything but KS nixed it. *sigh*

I really don't understand why he wouldn't release that information. It seems kind of immature.

Right... immature... and what if he felt it didn't fit the setting? What if there was some material on the Catholic Church that Kev thought might be a bit offensive? If I sent in a good manuscript on the Guardians but it had a section in it explaining how the void ships were really made of cotton candy and rainbows, would it be "immature" for Kev not to put it on the Cutting Room Floor?

Remember, just because a handful of people want to see it doesn't mean it was good material for publication (or even release). :-?

Marcethus · Unread post by **Marcethus** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:49 am

Something about KS not liking the material or some such not sure of the details as Jason wasn't allowed to talk about it due to NDA stuff.

Specter · Unread post by **Specter** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:02 am

Warwolf wrote:
Specter wrote:
Marcethus wrote:yup He has tried to get pB to release it as well onto the cutting room floor or anything but KS nixed it. *sigh*

I really don't understand why he wouldn't release that information. It seems kind of immature.

Right... immature... and what if he felt it didn't fit the setting? What if there was some material on the Catholic Church that Kev thought might be a bit offensive? If I sent in a good manuscript on the Guardians but it had a section in it explaining how the void ships were really made of cotton candy and rainbows, would it be "immature" for Kev not to put it on the Cutting Room Floor?

Remember, just because a handful of people want to see it doesn't mean it was good material for publication (or even release).

Yes... immature. Like when someone does something for spite... Like instead of letting someone release something to a fan base without profit and in NO way connected to Palladium books... he stonewalls Jason. It doesn't effect him in any way if Jason Vey sent me an e-mail with the ommited right up. I'm pretty sure that I don't care if it fits Kevin's views on the setting and I'm pretty sure that the Catholic Church isn't reading my e-mail. So, in conclusion... yep.

Marcethus · Unread post by **Marcethus** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:47 am

Specter wrote:
Warwolf wrote:
Specter wrote:
Marcethus wrote:yup He has tried to get pB to release it as well onto the cutting room floor or anything but KS nixed it. *sigh*

I really don't understand why he wouldn't release that information. It seems kind of immature.

Right... immature... and what if he felt it didn't fit the setting? What if there was some material on the Catholic Church that Kev thought might be a bit offensive? If I sent in a good manuscript on the Guardians but it had a section in it explaining how the void ships were really made of cotton candy and rainbows, would it be "immature" for Kev not to put it on the Cutting Room Floor?

Remember, just because a handful of people want to see it doesn't mean it was good material for publication (or even release).

Yes... immature. Like when someone does something for spite... Like instead of letting someone release something to a fan base without profit and in NO way connected to Palladium books... he stonewalls Jason. It doesn't effect him in any way if Jason Vey sent me an e-mail with the ommited right up. I'm pretty sure that I don't care if it fits Kevin's views on the setting and I'm pretty sure that the Catholic Church isn't reading my e-mail. So, in conclusion... yep.

I completely agree with you. Its a bunch of BS that KS wouldn't allow it to be realeased.

But I caught something that mentioned Jason sent you the cut material?

Any chance you still have that stuff?

Marcethus · Unread post by **Marcethus** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:50 am

Warwolf wrote:
Specter wrote:
Marcethus wrote:yup He has tried to get pB to release it as well onto the cutting room floor or anything but KS nixed it. *sigh*

I really don't understand why he wouldn't release that information. It seems kind of immature.

Right... immature... and what if he felt it didn't fit the setting? What if there was some material on the Catholic Church that Kev thought might be a bit offensive? If I sent in a good manuscript on the Guardians but it had a section in it explaining how the void ships were really made of cotton candy and rainbows, would it be "immature" for Kev not to put it on the Cutting Room Floor?

Remember, just because a handful of people want to see it doesn't mean it was good material for publication (or even release).

Handful my ass. I have seen so many ppl that have read SoL that want that material. In fact a rather large percentage of anyone that has read the book has mentioned wanting to see what was cut out of it after they found out that stuff was cut out. So your handful arguement doesn't hold water.

Misfit KotLD · Unread post by **Misfit KotLD** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:13 pm

Marcethus wrote:
Warwolf wrote:
Specter wrote:
Marcethus wrote:yup He has tried to get pB to release it as well onto the cutting room floor or anything but KS nixed it. *sigh*

I really don't understand why he wouldn't release that information. It seems kind of immature.

Right... immature... and what if he felt it didn't fit the setting? What if there was some material on the Catholic Church that Kev thought might be a bit offensive? If I sent in a good manuscript on the Guardians but it had a section in it explaining how the void ships were really made of cotton candy and rainbows, would it be "immature" for Kev not to put it on the Cutting Room Floor?

Remember, just because a handful of people want to see it doesn't mean it was good material for publication (or even release).

Handful my ass. I have seen so many ppl that have read SoL that want that material. In fact a rather large percentage of anyone that has read the book has mentioned wanting to see what was cut out of it after they found out that stuff was cut out. So your handful arguement doesn't hold water.

So one of the guys writing the new NB book doesn't have as much information as a fan on an internet message board?

Marcethus · Unread post by **Marcethus** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:41 pm

My statement isn't only based on PB's board alone. Alot of the ppl that I personally know plus many that I have contact through various places also want to see that information. Saying that only a handful when a decently large amount of fans want that info is IMO incorrect.

And not to be rude or anything; just because you may be writing the new NB book doesn't mean you have all the information available as to what fans want to see.

Misfit KotLD · Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:57 pm

Marcethus wrote:My statement isn't only based on PB's board alone. Alot of the ppl that I personally know plus many that I have contact through various places also want to see that information. Saying that only a handful when a decently large amount of fans want that info is IMO incorrect.

And not to be rude or anything; just because you may be writing the new NB book doesn't mean you have all the information available as to what fans want to see.

So you're saying Mark (Warwolf) can't get that information from Kevin? Maybe those fans should write Kevin instead of grousing on the internet and the like.

Marcethus · Unread post by **Marcethus** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:48 am

Never said that he didn't or couldn't get that information from KS.

And its not grousing it's discussing. You are the one that is twisting things into a ***** fest.

your whole tone in this has been negative as far as the number of people that want to see that information. At least as it comes across in reading it. If that is not how you meant it then sorry but that is how it comes across.

Also what makes you think that KS would give that information even to another author of a NB book? Its obvious that he didn't like it or it wouldn't have gotten cut from the Shadows of Light. And when it was asked of Jason if he could post it and give it to those that were requesting that information he was shot down by KS, exact reasons were unclear but impression was that he didn't like the stuff it contained or something to that effect.

Specter · Unread post by **Specter** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:26 pm

Marcethus wrote:
Specter wrote:
Warwolf wrote:
Specter wrote:
Marcethus wrote:yup He has tried to get pB to release it as well onto the cutting room floor or anything but KS nixed it. *sigh*

I really don't understand why he wouldn't release that information. It seems kind of immature.

Right... immature... and what if he felt it didn't fit the setting? What if there was some material on the Catholic Church that Kev thought might be a bit offensive? If I sent in a good manuscript on the Guardians but it had a section in it explaining how the void ships were really made of cotton candy and rainbows, would it be "immature" for Kev not to put it on the Cutting Room Floor?

Remember, just because a handful of people want to see it doesn't mean it was good material for publication (or even release).

Yes... immature. Like when someone does something for spite... Like instead of letting someone release something to a fan base without profit and in NO way connected to Palladium books... he stonewalls Jason. It doesn't effect him in any way if Jason Vey sent me an e-mail with the ommited right up. I'm pretty sure that I don't care if it fits Kevin's views on the setting and I'm pretty sure that the Catholic Church isn't reading my e-mail. So, in conclusion... yep.

I completely agree with you. Its a bunch of BS that KS wouldn't allow it to be realeased.

But I caught something that mentioned Jason sent you the cut material?

Any chance you still have that stuff?

No... I was just saying it wouldn't hurt KS or Palladium if Jason sent me an e-mail with that stuff. He won't because KS would have a fit... so yeah, I don't have it either even though I sent him a few messages asking for it right after it came out.

Misfit KotLD · Unread post by **Misfit KotLD** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:29 pm

Marcethus wrote:Never said that he didn't or couldn't get that information from KS.

And its not grousing it's discussing. You are the one that is twisting things into a ***** fest.

your whole tone in this has been negative as far as the number of people that want to see that information. At least as it comes across in reading it. If that is not how you meant it then sorry but that is how it comes across.

Also what makes you think that KS would give that information even to another author of a NB book? Its obvious that he didn't like it or it wouldn't have gotten cut from the Shadows of Light. And when it was asked of Jason if he could post it and give it to those that were requesting that information he was shot down by KS, exact reasons were unclear but impression was that he didn't like the stuff it contained or something to that effect.

First off, I'm talking about the marketing numbers saying whether or not there's enough demand for Palladium to make that worth releasing. Second, Kevin paid for that IP, so he has no reason to let it go for free now. If it's not up to whatever standard he's holding, he doesn't have to. And I'm not the one jumping on Mark, who is writing the new book, who can ask Kevin about fan demand or what was cut from SoL so anything similar won't be submitted. You're the one who knows "lots" of people who want that material. Yes, you know some folks who'd like to see it. Is that representative of the Palladium fanbase? If so, let Kevin know. I'm just tired of all the crying here about NB when I know more is in the works. Sure, it may never see the light of day, but at least the line is not dead. On SoL, I find it good material for anything not NB. It never fit the setting, there seemed too much emphasis on the Anthatos.

Specter · Unread post by **Specter** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:47 pm

You're right Misfit. Instead of complaining about things on the internet. We should complain directly to KS. I'm suuure that a couple of e-mails from consumers will change his mind.

I just figured he was busy running Palladium, and didn't have time to have old dirt brought up time and time again. If he had a lot of free time on his hands I would have warned him about the CCG game's lack of quality when it first came out.

Misfit KotLD · Unread post by **Misfit KotLD** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:51 pm

Specter wrote:You're right Misfit. Instead of complaining about things on the internet. We should complain directly to KS. I'm suuure that a couple of e-mails from consumers will change his mind.

Yes, griping on an anonymous board that will work, especially when you've called him immature. Good call.

Specter · Unread post by **Specter** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:14 pm

No no... I don't expect it to "work". I expected something when I first heard about the cut material and had an e-mail exchange with JV to try and get a look at said material. Only to be told that he had sign some confidentiality papers and Kevin owned the work and didn't want to do anything with it. I thought then that if KS knew there were people that went right out and bought SoL and wanted that information to... that he would be willing to allow KS to send a simple e-mail. It seemed reasonable. But, now... no... I don't expect it to "work" I expect him to ignore anything I write.

Maybe I don't have a full grasp on the material that was cut. If it was a portion of the necronomicon for example that would cause my soul to explode out of my testacles.... I would take everything back and say thank you very much Kevin for saving my soul and keeping my balls from exploding.

Misfit KotLD · Unread post by **Misfit KotLD** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:17 pm

So, the non-disclosure agreement and change of money for intellectual property means nothing and Kevin shouldn't be upset if Jason gives out Kevin's property?

Specter · Unread post by **Specter** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:54 pm

No... it is totally valid. But, it's still immature to decide not to do something with it out of some kind of spite. There is a fan base... possibly a small fan base who says... I want to read that.

And, Kevin says... not gonna happen.

And, we say... because your going to put it into a book or something and letting us see it will cost you money?

Nope

Because you are worried that it could lead to some kind of highly unlikely lawsuit from the Catholic church reading our e-mails?

Nope

Then why?

The same reason that FOX maintains rights to Firefly and will neither let Sci-fi buy the rights nor start up new shows even with a rabid fanbase. Cause it's funny.

Don't put words in my mouth. He owns the material and he can do whatever he wants to with it. That is his right and you know I'm not saying that it isn't.

Misfit KotLD · Unread post by **Misfit KotLD** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:22 pm

There's no need to put words in your mouth. Immature came from it of your choice.

Specter · Unread post by **Specter** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:40 pm

And, I stand behind that word. I never said I didn't say that... even though you keep throwing it back in my face. Do you expect me to take it back or try and deny it? What would you call it? Happy happy fun time?

Marcethus · Unread post by **Marcethus** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:25 pm

Here is where I bow out of this 'Discussion' as it no longer serves any purpose to say my piece.

Specter · Unread post by **Specter** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:43 pm

Good call... I'm going to stop responding to flamebait, and kick out before the thread gets mucho locked.

Marcethus · Unread post by **Marcethus** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:55 am