nightlord vs enlightened immortal

[blade76]

Who would win in a fight between a nightlord and an enlightened immortal with standard powers?

[Prince Cherico]

a last stage imortal will win

[drewkitty ~..~]

Agrees with Cherico and Zerebus.

But I ponder, "Why was this posted in the HU forum?"

[Rallan]

It's gotta be the Nightlord. I don't care how many times an Immortal can pick himself up and start over, sooner or later he's gonna decide that it just really really hurts way too much to be worth the effort.

[Prince Cherico]

It's gotta be the Nightlord. I don't care how many times an Immortal can pick himself up and start over, sooner or later he's gonna decide that it just really really hurts way too much to be worth the effort.

I still think a last stage imortal will win they just have too many
nasty powers and then theirs the whole years of mystic study
and martial arts experence. A last stager is a nasty peice of work.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Agrees with Cherico and Zerebus.

But I ponder, "Why was this posted in the HU forum?"

Because HU is the natural middleground between Ninjas and Superspies and the Nightbane RPG?

I agree that this was posted in the wrong area. I am surprised Nimmy did not move it already.

[NMI]

moved to a more appropriate forum.

[Rallan]

It's gotta be the Nightlord. I don't care how many times an Immortal can pick himself up and start over, sooner or later he's gonna decide that it just really really hurts way too much to be worth the effort.

I still think a last stage imortal will win they just have too many
nasty powers and then theirs the whole years of mystic study
and martial arts experence. A last stager is a nasty peice of work.

I dunno. Thousands upon thousands of SDC, ridiculously overpowered attacks, energy fields strong enough to shrug off a nuclear blast, and mad teleportin' skillz are pretty badass stuff. A Nightlord could probably chuck an Immortal around for hours before he finally loses enough SDC to decide it's time to bail and regenerate for a few minutes before starting over.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I have a mystic china char that could take on a NL....

Giving a mage time to prepaire for an encounter leads to the mage winning.

Think of the earth animus spell and having 1472 chi pos feed into it. When that punch conects its gona hurt.

********

As for the enlightened immortal vs the NL, the NL is vunerable to chi attacks, and once the chi they have is gone, they can't regenerate.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I don't see the Nightlords having a way to make an enlightened immortal stay dead.

yep, they didn't do to well at keeping the formless ones dead...just look @ all the nightbane there are.

[Prince Cherico]

I don't see the Nightlords having a way to make an enlightened immortal stay dead.

yep, they didn't do to well at keeping the formless ones dead...just look @ all the nightbane there are.

Que? Got canon on that or just flavor text?

the guy who wrote the book posted that idea
I dont know where that thread is its been awhile

[Nekira Sudacne]

Dude, the only thing pitting a nightlord and an enlightened immortal against one another will accomplish is the reduction of a city to rubble with a pair of ultra-powerful, completely perplexed super beings having a tea party in the epicenter of it all discussing a peace agreement or at least a cease arms until one of them is powerful enough to blow the other to kingdom come.

Plus, most immortals would rather let heroes deal with the nightlords than take direct intervention. They may train and arm people with the means to defend themselves, but no one ever became enlightened taking handouts from an immortal.

actually, all that means is the Enlightened Immortal won't pick the fight.

What if the Nightlord picks the fight with the Immortal?

[blade76]

rifter 3# has enlightened immortals being the ultimate shapeshifters

and having thousands of mdc 9 mine has as high as 4000 MDC, and chi spells.From what I see , the enlightened immortal will win from 6th stage and up ( 1000 chi converst to 50,000 MDC) not to mention a couple of chi could enhance him to PS in the hundreds a liberal amount of speed and it will end badly for the nightlord.In rifts

[Lucas]

or he can just convert the immortal into energy and absorb him

[Lenwen]

Aye no contest ... The NightLord would win .. sorry for the Immortal .. yeah he may be immortal an have all kinds of powers .. but can the imortal use them powers when the nightlords simply destroy the Immortals ENTIRE Dimension ... !!!

-Lenwen.

[Nekira Sudacne]

or he can just convert the immortal into energy and absorb him

That power dosn't work on the living or enchanted materials...

[LunarYoma]

9th stage enlightened immortal would win

[Nekira Sudacne]

Ouch!!! This is the second time in one years time that I've had to agree with LunarYakma!!!

It's the 7th sign of the Apokolips.

But lunars right, nth stage EI's will kill a Night Lord in seconds flat should one choose to!!!

By this stage they have just about every bleemin spell in and out of creation, not to mention every Psi-power, Chi-spell and ability, every Spirita Anima Macross ability, and even a few super powers to boot.

They've got listed abilitys that are insane... From Phase world Psionics to WormWood spells, to Time Lord (ALA TMNT) spells and Nazican crud!! Spacial Magic, Temoral Magic, Dwenomer Magic, Weaver Magic...

All in all...that's just way to much for even the god-like Ba'al to deal with...
But heres the kickers...They'll most likely have access to Shadow Warlock Abilitys too...And may even have learned the same or similar abilitys to the Night lords themselves...

Nth Stagers are powerfull.
I had a Player reach stage one, his Crazy Cat-Girl Furry desimated half a Coalition Division in moments!!! Just to save a C-Knight monestary...Ouch...and game legal.

Where are you getting that they have psionics and magic from?

[Rallan]

Ouch!!! This is the second time in one years time that I've had to agree with LunarYakma!!!

It's the 7th sign of the Apokolips.

But lunars right, nth stage EI's will kill a Night Lord in seconds flat should one choose to!!!

By this stage they have just about every bleemin spell in and out of creation, not to mention every Psi-power, Chi-spell and ability, every Spirita Anima Macross ability, and even a few super powers to boot.

They've got listed abilitys that are insane... From Phase world Psionics to WormWood spells, to Time Lord (ALA TMNT) spells and Nazican crud!! Spacial Magic, Temoral Magic, Dwenomer Magic, Weaver Magic...

All in all...that's just way to much for even the god-like Ba'al to deal with...
But heres the kickers...They'll most likely have access to Shadow Warlock Abilitys too...And may even have learned the same or similar abilitys to the Night lords themselves...

Nth Stagers are powerfull.
I had a Player reach stage one, his Crazy Cat-Girl Furry desimated half a Coalition Division in moments!!! Just to save a C-Knight monestary...Ouch...and game legal.

That's great, but can an Enlightened Immortal do any of that when he's encased in solid concrete?

[Nekira Sudacne]

having seen enlightened immortals used, I'd honestly say by about the time the Enlightened immortal has gone to see the four dragon kings, the Nightlord's toast.
People forget all the mudras and animus and all that crazy stuff they get on the way up. What's more, Nightlords have no chi defense and no chi powers...none. In moments, they've lost their ability to heal and regenerate, then the whuppins begin...
Enlightened immortals can throw up hard and soft chi to deflect powers and attacks, and they have the stuff for days. What's more, someone very wisely pointed out that a knowledge-dedicated immortal could actually know DOZENS of martial arts. If he's been around 500-600 years, then he's had time to stop and actually take those 5 and 6 and 8 year martial arts. First melee...
"okay, the normal stuff isn't working, think I'll switch to my level 15 Shaolin Kung Fu form....ah, he's tough, time to go 15th level snake style on him...whew...better breathe out some fire cloud...ah to hell with it, 1,000 chi point simultaneous attack fist gesture....somebody get a squeegee....."

We don't know how chi powers work against Nightlords, they are written with descriptions on how they work on humans. They work on Demons differently, so they'd probably work on Nightlords differently, despite Nightlords being originally humans, they're just as different as demons now, since they are PPE vamps and stuff. Just like demons (in mystic china) are creatures of negative chi, Nightlords are creatures of negative something. I think only direct energy attacks created from chi and stuff would work.

No one is saying they would work alone. Unlike most EIs, Nightlords have a huge army of minions at their disposal to help take the brunt of a direct assault. They also already dominate human populations. They also manage (especially Modoch) a huge amount of very powerful artifacts, ones that could probably take the brunt of even huge chi fist gesture assaults.

One thing about Immortals, even ones who have refined their Elixers, is they get lazy. You have seen from things like Pantheons of the Megaverse, gods who have lived for Millenia, yet who are level 8, or who may have at most, 2 OCCs or something. They live a long time, and they get lazy. Considering that these are TAOIST immortals, they are especially going to have a very relaxed, laid-back sort of lifestyle.

You have to realize, they did not grow old in an atmosphere of Nightbane. They grew old in relatively peaceful times. You might encounter an occasional Infernal every decade or so, or maybe fight some noob un-immortal sorcerer, but basically, once they have gotten the first elixer, and especially the second (when you gain all chi abilities) pretty much nothing you face anymore is going to be a challenge anymore. You'll have some huge powers, but you won't be lvl 15 in a bunch of OCCs or martial arts. Those take experience points, like from facing challenges, and when you are this powerful, pretty much nothing challenges you anymore, so you stop advancing.

They'd keep leveling up if they were facing off against nightlords or demon lords constantly, but most aren't going to be doing that. They might play pranks on them, or manipulate stuff from behind the scenes, but that's really not the kind of huge challenges you see characters like Naruto or Ichigo face off against them which keep them continually progressing until they beat e boss of the bad guys. We're talking about an Earth atmospehre here, these Taoists are trying to perfect themself for personal and religious reasons, not continually facing off against threats or something. This kind of stuff only occurs in campaigns, which are the exception to the rule, the adventures where a laid-back immortal can actually get some excitement, kind of like Uryuu stopped fighting for over a century and found her flash-step had actually gotten slower once she fought on top of the tower.

Immortals pretty much have to handicap themselves if they want any kind of challenge, against all these noob opponents. This is kind of like how that guy wears that eyepatch to eat his ki and how he removes it and becomes way tougher for Ichigo to beat.

But a lot of them don't do that, because you get laid back and don't get obsessed about getting stronger, just about refining your elixer, and that is it. When you get enlightened, you look for experience in solving problems indirectly, in gaining new and interesting powers and magic, but not about amplifying your raw chi, so they won't be amassing huge amounts of chi by learning snake style and stuff.

This is actually something you're going to see a lot more with OTHER types of Immortals. They are not completely immortal, and are generally more evil. They will be more fixated on getting as much chi as possible. If an Enlightened Immortal actually has a huge amount of chi, I don't think they are being roleplayed correctly.

I think just to get to the stage where you are immortal through the true path means you're not the type to get lazy. I think, pretty much, an enlightened immortal is going to be just the opposite of what you described. What you describe is someone without the mental discipline to have ever even gotten immortal somehow getting through the process. I don't think the personality type you describe is capable of getting there in the first place.
Those who do make it through, and who continually refine the elixers, are going to be driven individuals. Anyone who thinks being Taoist automatically means being laid back and non-driven has never met a Taoist.

Agreed.

I mean, again, take a look at Patheons of the megaverse.

those are _gods_. They have to be lazy otherwise we see miricles every day.

These are humans. there are no grounds for comparison.

[NMI]

yep, they didn't do to well at keeping the formless ones dead...just look @ all the nightbane there are.

Que? Got canon on that or just flavor text?

the guy who wrote the book posted that idea
I dont know where that thread is its been awhile

So, no canon.

it Got Cannoized in Dark Conversions for Rifts.
I also Asked CJ carella About this Way back.

Thats funny. I know someone else who got this same info from CJ Carella.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I still find it amazing how many people think it's "just part of human nature" to become more lax if they don't have to worry about death. Seriously, is trying to do something before you die all that gets you out of bed in the morning? fact is, there is no rational basis to say "what an immortal human would be like". We have no immortal humans to go by. However, the longest lived humans tend to stay pretty active.

Honestly, I think it's just a tendancy to read yourself into what would happen in this case. Many people, when time is no longer a factor, when they have no deadline, do become more lazy. Then again, there are people with no specific deadlines who can't find enough hours in the day to do everything they want to do.

I don't think the fear of death is equally driving in all humans. For some, it's the defining aspect, for others, it's hardly comprehensible. But that's not really as relevant. The only relavant thing isn't even "Lazy or not lazy", It's "What's your time management skills like" Those with poor management skills might take a century to do very little. AN extremely driven individual, such as a highly scientific type, might find that there' STILL arnt' enough hours in the day and why wait for next century when you want it done next month.

Drive is what's important. Not Immortality. A driven human will find the specter of death being lifted _more_ motivation. After all, what reason do you have to NOT cure cancer now? you can have a family or unimportant stuff next century. right after you make AI first...

[Crazy Lou]

It's been a while since I looked at my enlightened immortals and all, so I can't say about anything before 7th stage. But I'd say that a 7th stage and up above that would utterly decimate any nightlord. The whole internal alchemy thing means basically that since it allows DNA changes to effect altered characteristics, the immortal, if (s)he bothers to take the time to do it, can have literally every single super power in every heroes unlimited book, on top of all his other stuff. Also, as said before, the immortal should know most of all magic by then, and lots of martial arts and most if not all chi powers. The nightlords are powerful, that's true, but even as much PPE as they have, (which is about as much as the immortal has if not less, IIRC), once that's gone, all his spectacular powers are over and he's about to be absolutely obliterated. And to do really spectacular stuff... like what it'd take to go toe-to-toe with an enlightened immortal for very long, costs a LOT of PPE.

Oh yeah, an addition after the post: Think about how many more attacks per melee that the immortal would have with all those extra super powers.... can you say 15th level Sonic speed, not to mention all the others? Easily the nightlord would be out matched in actions/melee by a ration of 3:1 in the immortal's favor... That's a lot of butt whooping that he's frantically trying to avoid w/o using any more actions (and with all the passive super powers in addition to his martial arts and chi spell bonuses, think how much higher the immortal's strike/parry/dodge bonuses would be than the nightlord's...

[Specter]

The Nightlord would win... but it would be a truly epic battle. At a low level though the enlightened immortal would get killed right off. After a few thousand years... the immortal might get powerful enough to get in a lucky shot.

But, everytime he's killed off... he has to grow up again. Which is at least another 40 years before he's powerful enough for a rematch.

[csbioborg]

The Nightlord would win... but it would be a truly epic battle. At a low level though the enlightened immortal would get killed right off. After a few thousand years... the immortal might get powerful enough to get in a lucky shot.

But, everytime he's killed off... he has to grow up again. Which is at least another 40 years before he's powerful enough for a rematch.

why exactly? THe prior poster rationle is more convincing

[Specter]

I meant an enlightened immortal who is relatively young. The internal alchemy doesn't say that they can give themselves every superpower. They get really really powerful but they don't get sonic speed.... they do have chi powers. They can walk between worlds... make themselves invulnerable from physical attacks, but a nightlord can demolish them.

The previous poster's rationale doesn't follow the rules as stated in Mystic China. Depending on the GM... it could happen. But, I don't see where it says they can change their dna to give themselves any super powers. They have a pretty amazing array of powers already...

[blade76]

It allows the to control their dna, what super powers will require is the immortal learning genetic manipulation in order to understand how to simulate unique powers together, my gm allows me do so but costs three skills to learn a power as the immortal must invest time in understanding how to alter his body in a unique manner to create a specific ability.or 2 levels as superpowers is tied on some level to genetics as is psionics

[blade76]

check rifter 3, powers are in dna manipulation or control of self at a genetic level and can even alter the elements they are made of ,it even states all that have been mentioned are the tip of the iceberg for what internal alchemy can do the rest is up to a gm, and mine insists I learn the skill of genetic manipulation in other to simulate powers.

[Crazy Lou]

sorry this is the first time i've gotten a chance to get back on the forums, but ya, I was referring to the rifter #3 descriptions which blade already mentioned.

[Nekira Sudacne]

sorry this is the first time i've gotten a chance to get back on the forums, but ya, I was referring to the rifter #3 descriptions which blade already mentioned.

Sinse the Rifters are non-offical material, it's not much use in a Vs. discussion. Otherwise we can just as easially say Nightlords ability to change one form of matter and create it lets them create and add DNA to their OWN DNA and then we get Superpowered nightlords with every superpower in the book to fight your Superpower Weilding Enlightened immortals to get back on the same level as before

[Crazy Lou]

at the time i posted about the dna manipulation, i didn't realize it was rifter material, i just remembered reading it.

my bad

[Library Ogre]

Assuming nothing more than the powers granted by immortality as listed in MC, an Immortal wins by the fourth refinement. The gift of the Dragon King of the West simply shuts down a Nightlord.

[Avatara]

If you read the night bane books it actually says that there are immortals in the night bane setting (other than the geo-immortals) I think they mention a few of them in through the glass darkly. It hints that the immortals keep a low profile to avoid the night lords and their minions.
So I'd say the night lord would win do to the whole controlling matter thing. Plus sense there is no chi in night bane you would either have to add it into the game. I'd say its safe to assume that the Night lords would have a lot of it. so the instant reduce chi to zero with one hit attack would not happen. Or you would end up converting chi to ppe in which case the night lord would have a lot of it.

[Library Ogre]

If you read the night bane books it actually says that there are immortals in the night bane setting (other than the geo-immortals) I think they mention a few of them in through the glass darkly. It hints that the immortals keep a low profile to avoid the night lords and their minions.
So I'd say the night lord would win do to the whole controlling matter thing. Plus sense there is no chi in night bane you would either have to add it into the game. I'd say its safe to assume that the Night lords would have a lot of it. so the instant reduce chi to zero with one hit attack would not happen. Or you would end up converting chi to ppe in which case the night lord would have a lot of it.

The Gift of the Dragon King I mentioned? It prevents use of PPE in its area. It lasts many rounds.

[Nekira Sudacne]

If you read the night bane books it actually says that there are immortals in the night bane setting (other than the geo-immortals) I think they mention a few of them in through the glass darkly. It hints that the immortals keep a low profile to avoid the night lords and their minions.
So I'd say the night lord would win do to the whole controlling matter thing. Plus sense there is no chi in night bane you would either have to add it into the game. I'd say its safe to assume that the Night lords would have a lot of it. so the instant reduce chi to zero with one hit attack would not happen. Or you would end up converting chi to ppe in which case the night lord would have a lot of it.

The Gift of the Dragon King I mentioned? It prevents use of PPE in its area. It lasts many rounds.

Good thing Nightlords don't have to rely on those powers. A Nightlord with some good Artifact weapons and armor is still strong and tough enough to go toe to toe with an Immortal.

[Specter]

Nope... the Night Lord could just summon an army, cast ancient spells of ruin, cause the earth it's self to swallow up the immortal and crush him into diamond!!!

I think it would be close.

[Avatara]

The problem is night bane (the setting) does not have chi. So if you were to mix the two setting together you would have to do away with the chi or give the nightlord chi. Considering the fact that the nightlords are immortal and have been around for thousands of years I'd say that it is a safe bet to say that they have a massive amount of chi. I'd say as a house rule that they would be on par with the fully enlightend immortal for amount of chi.

[Library Ogre]

The problem is night bane (the setting) does not have chi. So if you were to mix the two setting together you would have to do away with the chi or give the nightlord chi. Considering the fact that the nightlords are immortal and have been around for thousands of years I'd say that it is a safe bet to say that they have a massive amount of chi. I'd say as a house rule that they would be on par with the fully enlightend immortal for amount of chi.

But not control; Nightlords would perhaps be considered a false path to immortality, akin to an undead. They circumvented normal end-of-life, and did so by becoming powerful creatures of supernatural evil. For Enlightened Immortals, the Hells are informed "This person is no longer subject to your jurisdiction"... for false immortals, it's more of an IOU, that the Hells will, one day, be able to collect on.

Imagine the Hell that is prepared for the Nightlords.

[Rallan]

What are Enlightened Immortals like on astral and dimensional travel? Because I imagine if you drag him into the Astral plane, have an astral avatar or two and a buttload of minions to keep him under control, and then toss him into the void, you'll have pretty much solved your problem permanently. He might not be dead, but he's gonna be busy - and a looooooong way away - for an awful long time.

[Library Ogre]

What are Enlightened Immortals like on astral and dimensional travel? Because I imagine if you drag him into the Astral plane, have an astral avatar or two and a buttload of minions to keep him under control, and then toss him into the void, you'll have pretty much solved your problem permanently. He might not be dead, but he's gonna be busy - and a looooooong way away - for an awful long time.

At the very least, Zenjoriki "Mind Walk" means that they've got some experience... assuming they haven't learned other powers.

[Nekira Sudacne]

High End Enighlightened immortals and take a single step and be in any dimension, any place, period. it's free, unlimited, flawless same world and interdimensional teleportation.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Also: How has this thread survived for a year and a half?

[blade76]

does internal alchemy give ability to alter their physical parameters to any extent the immortal chooses.

[Nekira Sudacne]

does internal alchemy give ability to alter their physical parameters to any extent the immortal chooses.

Not. Even. Remotely. Close.

[Steeler49er]

Nightlords start out as Mages (generally powerful ones, as that is likely gonna put them in the good graces with the nightlords to eventually become one), Nightlords just don't bother with Magic as, it's considered Inferior to their own powers, are far faster to use. Additionally, it wouldn't be hard to believe that both the Nightlords (Ba'al) AND the The Enlightened would be Well aware of each others existances (both are Long lived as all Heck).

Otherwise, your correct as heck on all of your points. Additionally, Enlightened Immortals Are capable of taking on Even Molech With his army, all by their lonesome. The EI has got So much speed and Martel skill that, they could wipe the floor with just about every one of his forces in just under a miniute!

Just think of an EI using 'Dark Whip' and pumping 200 PPE into it per time frame! That's enough SN PS to kill three hounds in one 'Swipe',per tentical. 1000 hounds=167 attacks, for an aged EI that's about at 15 attacks per melee or 170 average seconds to kill them All... Considering that the EI Can get (small chance as it is) Dark Whip by becoming a Shadow Warlock, but they could Just as easily have created a little peice of paper that turned him Gold and gave him a Butt load of SN PS and SDC.

By that measure, an Enlightened Immortal Way surpasses the might of a god (lower case g as it is not a proper name, nor part of one), so Hands down Enlightened Immortal F.T.W.!

[Nekira Sudacne]

In an gladiator arena style fight yes of course the Enlightened Immortal will win ... you can get a look at a Enlighten Immortals average stats in (The Rifter 3 pg. 55) and you'll notice they have a lot of chi and ppe (high hundreds, sometimes a thousand each) as well as isp and mentions a high spell knowledge with no limits as well as all chi spells etc not to mention their enlightenment abilities, like the ability to shape shift into a Great Horned Dragon (Palladium Fantasy: Dragons and Gods Pg. 27) or shift into something overly powerful like a Hundred Handed (Rifts Conversion Book Two: Pantheons of the Universe pg.93). The ability to shift and still have extreme ppe and spells from all over the universe would make them almost "unstoppable".

Its not uncommon for a Enlightened Immortal to have been all over the universe and know God's personally (it mentions he insults and taunts deities and demons in forth refinement) like i assume the 4 Dragon Kings in path to enlightenment forth refinement are the 4 Dragon God's of Dragonwright mentioned in "Palladium Fantasy: Dragons and Gods Pg. 221) or even if they aren't i don't think its unheard of for a old Enlighten Immortal to know Styphon the Black and request to be lent "The Black sword of Styphon" (does hundreds points of dice damage per hit lol) and be granted this request or have similar weapons. Aswell as Martial arts Knowledge like im sure some of them might know Acromi (a spell casting martial art which can make mage really powerful in combat "The Rifter 30 pg. 31)

Actually, the 4 dragon kings of the 4 directions are a specific part of chinese myth unrelated to the Gods of Dragonwright, they are aquatic dragons each.

Which also makes more sense you notice that the breaths of the four dragon kings have nothing to do with the breath powers of the 4 gods of dragonwright.

[Library Ogre]

Nightlords would perhaps be considered a false path to immortality, akin to an undead. They circumvented normal end-of-life, and did so by becoming powerful creatures of supernatural evil. For Enlightened Immortals, the Hells are informed "This person is no longer subject to your jurisdiction"... for false immortals, it's more of an IOU, that the Hells will, one day, be able to collect on.

Eh, it might be bad for an Immortal's pride if they have to whine to the Yama Kings to go kill their enemies for them.

Another thing is: even the youngest Nightlord (wasn't it Ashtart?) is pretty old, they may have been around prior to the Yama Kings, in which case you'd probably have the previous owners of the hells sending Leopards after them.

Oh, they undoubtably predate the Yama Kings. But their Hell is still open, still waiting for them.