GM Advice?

[Chad]

I know exactly where you're coming from.

Before RUE, I started making it a 'Called Shot' and told them it took 2 actions. (I think RUE requires three actions for a Called Shot now)
Knowing they were going to lose that extra attack toned it down a little bit for me.
Hope this helps.

(Edit: Just looked it up. Three actions for an Aimed Called Shot, pg. 361- sorry)

[Dustin Fireblade]

As Chad mentioned it requires a "Called Aimed Shot" that takes up 3 actions. Plus there is a penalty of -3 to -4 to strike any bull's-eye or small targets (such as a head).

If you didn't know that, then that could make the difference.


Or feel free to reverse the actions onto the players as well. And as you start that, tell them they have blundered into a minefield as well. And then one of the guys shooting them actually has a laser designator and he's targeting them for a missile strike. Tell them it's karma.

[Library Ogre]

As others have said, turnabout is fair play. Shoot them in the head. If they take cover, shoot the cover with explosives until they have no cover.

If they get a name for themselves for blowing up people's heads, their opponents will return the favor.

[Dog_O_War]

Thanks for the quick replies. Just a note... it is not the aimed called shots that I am worried about. They haven't seen the need for the extra bonus to strike as of yet. They are just using standard 2-action called shots.

Judging by the first few posts, it looks like I haven't actually missed anything in the rules. I guess what I need is an idea of what tactics opponents can use in order to counter the called shots.

If called shots are that much of a problem, I find that the best option is to have them roll their dice infront of you.

Because they are cheating.
You'll note that while a head-shot offers a reduced MDC total, the amount is still about 1/3 the main body; at two actions per shot, even with a weapon that did 1d4x10 it would still take 4 actions to actually destroy the helmet (assuming they hit), and then you've got the G.I.Joe rule on your side.
Meanwhile if they had just shot up the main body, they'd be through the same amount of MDC. Sample the following; a suit of Crusader has about 90 MDC, so the helmet should have about 30.
At minimum damage they need 3 called shots (6 actions) to bust the helmet. At maximum they need 1 called shot (at 2 actions). On average though they still need 2 called shots (4 actions).
Meanwhile they would need 9 actions at minimum to crack the main body, but only 4 on average. At minimum they only need 2 actions to crack the main body of that armour, so they are basically in the same position. EXCEPT that making a called shot offers that they are at a full -3 per shot to strike, offering a 15% lower chance to hit, and they have only half the overall amount of chances to critically hit their target. This applies for personal body armour and MDC creatures only.

Against PA, the numbers switch up abit; making called shots technically worth while, but in reality they often have additional penalties that far exceed any advantage they would've gained.

So in summary, if called shots to the head are a problem, have players roll in front of you to cut down on the amount that are actually successful.

The reality of the situation is that the players are only fooling themselves into thinking that their called shots are more effective than spamming bullets at targets.

Also, this might help; The roll needed to hit a target is normally 8, but a moving target (ie: a guy just walking) is 11. Add to this fast-moving targets, as well as the -3 head-shot penalty, with the addition of weapon attack bonuses only being applicable on aimed shots (well, most weapons' bonuses), these players are certainly rolling alot of 14+ numbers on the d20.

[ApocalypseZero]

For quick reference, and as per Rifts: Ultimate Edition (around pg. 320 or so)

Ranged Shot=1 Attack/Action (Allows W.P., Sniping, and any other generic bonus to strike)
Aimed Shot=2 Attacks/Actions (Same as Above but also with a +2 to hit, might be +3 check book)
Called Shot=2 Attacks/Actions (Same as Ranged Shot, but requires a Roll of 12 or Higher to hit the target location and may include a Negative To Strike depending on the target and/or GM)
Aimed Called Shot=3 Attacks/Actions (Same as Ranged Shot, with the Bonus of Aimed Shot, and the requirements of Called Shot)

Now, to really be mean, find someone/thing that is or can be immune to whatever weapon they are using and enjoy.

[The Galactus Kid]

have the shot go off during their second action (because they are aiming) and have them be interrupted if they are hit and their concentratioon is broken. Hey, it happens to mages...

[Giant2005]

For quick reference, and as per Rifts: Ultimate Edition (around pg. 320 or so)

Ranged Shot=1 Attack/Action (Allows W.P., P.P., and any other generic bonus to strike)
Aimed Shot=2 Attacks/Actions (Same as Above but also with a +2 to hit, might be +3 check book)
Called Shot=2 Attacks/Actions (Same as Ranged Shot, but requires a Roll of 12 or Higher to hit the target location and may include a Negative To Strike depending on the target and/or GM)
Aimed Called Shot=3 Attacks/Actions (Same as Ranged Shot, with the Bonus of Aimed Shot, and the requirements of Called Shot)

Now, to really be mean, find someone/thing that is or can be immune to whatever weapon they are using and enjoy.

The only ranged weapons that benefit from PP without the Sharpshooting feats are archery and targetting. Even those weapon types are only allowed due to an oversight in the rules - judging from the spirit of the rules I'd suggest they shouldn't be allowed either.

[The Galactus Kid]

P.P. Bonuses to strike for ranged combat also applies to natural energy blasts, like the mystic knights energy blast or those from Heroes Unlimited.

[The Galactus Kid]

P.P. Bonuses and bonuses specifically for that ability are the only bonuses for natural energy attacks.

[ApocalypseZero]

Fixed.

I was forgetting the Sniper Skill, but knew there was 3 sources for Bonuses. And with my head in PFRPG right now, went with P.P.

[Balabanto]

So do you get PP bonuses for magical bolts or not? That's actually an important question.

[ApocalypseZero]

So do you get PP bonuses for magical bolts or not? That's actually an important question.

Since most Magical Attacks (Fireball, Call Lightning, Power Bolt, etc.) tend to either give a +# to Strike or set a # to Dodge, I'd be inclined to think that there are no outside bonuses for them. However, checking the Magic Combat section of R:UE might be the best place to look for an answer. (near pg. 180 I think).

[Balabanto]

The thing is, either there has to be a PP bonus, or you have to have a WP for it. Because otherwise, magic bolts suck worse than rifles at EVERYTHING. You're rolling that d20 + any bonus the spell gives you and that's it.

And we KNOW there's no WP for it.

[Balabanto]

Uh, rearnaked, compare the two things at 7th level. You're looking at an additional +4 to hit. The argument may be that a mage can use an energy rifle, too, but the point is that a mage SHOULDN'T always be using an energy rifle, no matter how much more damage it does. The equivalent spell at 7th level is Sub-Particle Acceleration, but that costs 20 PPE. You can't do it a whole bunch more times, either, and it takes two actions.

Either there needs to be WP: Magic Bolts, or you should get the PP bonus to strike. Personally, I'm leaning towards the WP: Magic Bolts because Battle Magus in FOM says you can sharpshoot with it.

[Dog_O_War]

whoa boys. It's impossible to compare two arbitrary systems to each other. Magic can do things technology finds tough, and vice-versa. It's just that simple.

Take a look at spell-casting; requires talent.
Now take a look at shooting a gun; requires a gun.

Big difference in the skill-level of the user for one, for two you get more power out of technology.

That said, try turning invisible with technology versus magic.
A comparison between the two is completely arbitrary.

Additionally, "sniping" is a skill based on firing a rifle, or rifle-like weapon for a certain style of shot. Casting a spell is never like this, so a sniping bonus should never be gleaned. Additionally, it is impossible to become proficient casting a combat spell anymore than you already are; that is (what I'm trying to say) the proficiency is that the spell works without mishap.
See, any fool can pull the trigger on a gun, just as any fool can wave his arms/hands around in a strange manner, but only the trained can make those things count. That is proficiency.

So in summary, do spells use PP bonuses to strike? Does it say so in the combat or magic section, or under the specific spell? If so, then you have your answer.

[Balabanto]

Then how can you have sharpshooting proficencies with magic in the first place? You get your full dodge against it, because it's not a gun! Read the text of RUE. The question is which you need to assign, a PP bonus or a WP bonus. You have to get one or the other, you can't get neither, or Sharpshooting becomes broken as far as that class is concerned, because you can't determine whether the shot is aimed or not.

[Giant2005]

3) All Practitioners of Magic count as having a generic W.P. for ranged spells that grants level based bonuses to hit, but not P.P. (however determining what these bonuses would be is complicated)

This is what I would go with and I'd be using the Spell Strength modifier to determine the bonuses. In those combat spells, their save is their dodge, so the spell strength modifying the dodge in that manner isn't a huge leap.

[Balabanto]

That means that the Battle Magus, or combat mage, is actually LESS competent at shooting. So for with "One with Magic for Combat."

I'm leaning towards just saying

WP: Magic Bolts: The character is proficient with firing bolts of magical energy. Bolts of magical energy follow the rules for other ranged weapons, gaining +1 to strike at 1,3,5,7,9,11,13, and 15.

or using WP: Targeting

[Balabanto]

Which one do you use? It's a WP either way, I just want to know whose footsteps I'm treading in.

[Dog_O_War]

Then how can you have sharpshooting proficencies with magic in the first place? You get your full dodge against it, because it's not a gun! Read the text of RUE. The question is which you need to assign, a PP bonus or a WP bonus. You have to get one or the other, you can't get neither, or Sharpshooting becomes broken as far as that class is concerned, because you can't determine whether the shot is aimed or not.

Where in the texts does it say the Battle Magus gets WP sharp-shooting with magic spells?

For one, you first need to have a WP in order to have sharp-shooting. They have sharp-shooting, but I believe it is with e-rifles (or was it e-pistols?). That you can have "magic" e-rifles does not affect the fact that WP sharp-shooting offers zero advantages whilst casting spells. And for several reasons.

The first of which is that you can only make aimed shots with weapons you have a WP for (states this right in the main book).
The second is that you can only make called shots with certain weapon-types period, and none of them are "magic".
The third is that you can only cast a limited number of spells per melee round, and that all the bonuses that WP sharp-shooting grants are otherwise incompatable with most spells cast. It doesn't matter if you "attack the full round with magic", that extra attack gleaned from sharp-shooting means nothing. Additionally, since you cannot make aimed or called shots with (most) spells (because of the above rules) the superior bonuses offered by sharp-shooting have zero effect.

So it states in the books that you get your PP bonuses to strike with spells; similar but not exactly like sharp-shooting. You'll also note that the book states that energy blasts offer a penalty to dodge, and that only PP bonuses (as well as a select few others) apply.

So a wizard casts lightning bolt. This is a blast of energy.

That said, the spells themselves might offer different rules for bonuses gleaned and dodging them; these supercede the main books' standard combat rules, as they are situational and unique to the spell.

As for getting a WP for magical attacks, that sounds dumb and lacks thought in its inception. What I mean by this is that you are weaponizing inborn ability and talent. People don't have WP: fist or WP: foot as these are inborn attacks that we instinctively know how to use. Meanwhile you take a foreign object (like a gun) and that requires training. Magic is more in-line with inborn ability than it is with the foreign object. Maybe a type of magical attack training skill might be gained (like boxing or wrestling), but I believe it to be inherently wrong to think of inborn talents as a weaponizable proficiency.

[Balabanto]

Federation of Magic page 72, Sharpshooting Specialties (2), Bow and Arrow or energy rifle, and magic spells involving throwing or firing/blasts.

Furthermore, there are MANY spells which are level 1-5 and deal immediate damage, or spells of higher level (Lightning Arc) which generate a number of attacks equal to 1 melee attack/action. The number of spells in the game which do this is actually fairly numerous. (Fire Globe comes to mind if you're high enough level, so not only can you sharpshoot with it, but you can stock up on them beforehand and really ruin people's day. There's nothing that says you can't spend that 40 PPE a few weeks before.)

[Dog_O_War]

Federation of Magic page 72, Sharpshooting Specialties (2), Bow and Arrow or energy rifle, and magic spells involving throwing or firing/blasts.

Furthermore, there are MANY spells which are level 1-5 and deal immediate damage, or spells of higher level (Lightning Arc) which generate a number of attacks equal to 1 melee attack/action. The number of spells in the game which do this is actually fairly numerous. (Fire Globe comes to mind if you're high enough level, so not only can you sharpshoot with it, but you can stock up on them beforehand and really ruin people's day. There's nothing that says you can't spend that 40 PPE a few weeks before.)

The first two rules of why they don't work still stand.

No WP to make aimed shots with.

Not one of the specific weapon-types listed to make called shots with.

So you can glean some initiative and an extra attack per round. The PP attack bonus granted from sharp-shooting is inferior, so that doesn't matter either.

[Balabanto]

Well, everyone except you, Dog, seems to think that either this WP needs to exist, or that the WP needs to default to the PP score, because otherwise the class is broken.

What is the point of offering a class sharpshooting if it can't be used? The implication is either A) Yes, it can be used or B) Hi, guys, we screwed up, we need to replace this ability.

You're rules lawyering a situation that's a contradiction in the rules. It can't work but not work. The goal is to get it to work and standardize it, not to make people take a class which doesn't function because the ability itself runs counter to the nature of the system.

Saying that it doesn't work anyway isn't the point. If they gave the class the ability, it should be able to be used. People play the game to do certain things. Most people would play this class specifically to be able to sharpshoot with magic bolts. That's the main appeal of the class.

I'm all for keeping things simple and just keeping it with WP: Targeting, or WP: Magic Bolts if people feel that's not sufficient. But coming out and saying that the contradiction remains no matter what you fix is ludicrous.

[The Galactus Kid]

I don't like the idea of having W.P. Magic Bolts. Targeting is fine. I also think that P.P. bonuses should apply.

[Balabanto]

All right. You've shown more wisdom than the rest of us in this, and wrote some stuff for the company. Why PP Bonuses and Targeting? I am curious on what led you to this ruling. You wrote Madhaven, so as far as the system's concerned, you must be a greater master of it than I.

[The Galactus Kid]

All right. You've shown more wisdom than the rest of us in this, and wrote some stuff for the company. Why PP Bonuses and Targeting? I am curious on what led you to this ruling. You wrote Madhaven, so as far as the system's concerned, you must be a greater master of it than I.

First of all, P.P. bonuses are applied to natural energy bolts, and since magic bolts act in a similar fashion, I would have the bonuses be included. This would the case only for bolts which are fired from the hands like fire bolt or something of that sort. It would not count for spells which already have a set dodge number, such as fireball, and call lightning. In our game, we add those bonuses to spells and things like the mystic knight energy blast.

For the Battle Magus, they have quick draw. They get their initiative bonuses from the ability, but before R:UE it was pointless since you couldn’t cast a spell in a single action. Now, spells levels 1-5 can be done in one action, allowing them to be used with this quick draw ability. Also, quick draw is technically a W.P. (one that can’t be selected by most, and is often a special ability) so it DOES allow for a character to do aimed shots based on the statement that a W.P. is required to do so.

As for targeting, as a G.M. I would count those bonuses since they allow a character to judge distance better. Whether or not this is the actual case, I can’t say. That’s just my gut call as a G.M. Personally, this element has never come up since no character in our game has ever had this ability and targeting, and we’ve been playing the same campaign for about five years.

[Balabanto]

So you can still throw Fire Globe and Sharpshoot Lightning Arc, because it takes 1 melee attack/action to use each one respectively, then, assuming you create your fireglobe beforehand?

[The Galactus Kid]

I don't see why not. With lightning arc or electric arc, I don't see why you couldn't have those spells prepared and fire multiple blasts during the duration, or quickly cast a single action spell as your quickdraw action, according to the rules.

[Balabanto]

Actually, you can just have a big dimensional bag of fire globes, and hurl until the cows come home. They last weeks.

As for Lightning Arc, it does take 2 to cast, but after that, it's 1 melee action/attack to fire.

[The Galactus Kid]

Whatever works for you. I'm just telling you how I would run it.

[Dog_O_War]

Well, everyone except you, Dog, seems to think that either this WP needs to exist, or that the WP needs to default to the PP score, because otherwise the class is broken.

That's fine as I'm not the type of person that believes we need yet another redundant WP, or that there needs to be yet another skill in the Palladium universe.

What is the point of offering a class sharpshooting if it can't be used? The implication is either A) Yes, it can be used or B) Hi, guys, we screwed up, we need to replace this ability.

The class can use sharp-shooting; they get it for energy rifles. As I pointed out, the current rules set does not mesh with these out of date ones. That is, what may have been in the older editions (aimed, called shots taking two rounds, etc...) are not found in the newest edition. So really, it is neither A nor B, but C) Older rules need an update to conform to the current set-up.

You're rules lawyering a situation that's a contradiction in the rules.

I do this to point out the obsurdity of them.

It can't work but not work. The goal is to get it to work and standardize it, not to make people take a class which doesn't function because the ability itself runs counter to the nature of the system.

I understand this, but as I pointed out there is nothing wrong with the class, but rather this one rule seems to have had too much tacked onto it. The class is not hindered nor is it unplayable if you removed the "magic" from the WP sharp-shooting. What is unplayable though are a set of broken rules; as I pointed out, offering that magic may be used as a WP despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary is what makes the ruling incorrect.

Saying that it doesn't work anyway isn't the point. If they gave the class the ability, it should be able to be used. People play the game to do certain things. Most people would play this class specifically to be able to sharpshoot with magic bolts. That's the main appeal of the class.

I'm saying that they are using older versions of the rules when things were slightly more ambigious. That this class has the ability to sharp-shoot with magic bolts means nothing for the above mentioned facts.
The class would still get an additional attack, as well as an initiative bonus but otherwise calling this "magic sharp-shooting" is a mislabelled class ability.
Additionally, I figured that the other awesomeness of the class (like the ability to use the more advantageous WP sharp-shooting with e-rifles) is just as large an enticement seeing as how guns are simply the better choice. Especially for this class BTW, as they have access to and can use more easily TW weaponry (which often has superior firepower).
But I guess I didn't realize that the main appeal of the class was to do something crappy a bunch of times.

I'm all for keeping things simple and just keeping it with WP: Targeting, or WP: Magic Bolts if people feel that's not sufficient. But coming out and saying that the contradiction remains no matter what you fix is ludicrous.

It is ludicrous to think that weaponizing a talent via WP is wrong? I didn't realize that all mages and casters put to use their spells in the exact same manner, all doing the same motions and such as perscribed by their instituition of magic.

I guess I failed to realize that WP: Magic Bolts should've been included in the game, yet over the last 30 or so years they kept forgetting to put it in despite all the additions of magic classes and the like, and that it was an oversight that they would include WP sharp-shooting (a fairly recent skill addition itself) but not the buddy-skill WP: Magic Bolts to make it all Kosher with the rules. That and they only included this one mention of a possibility of a WP involving magical attacks in this one class here.


Or is it so ludicrous to believe that they included something in a class that they shouldn't have for the simple fact the Palladium is not known for it's well-oiled rules or production system.



I leave that thought with you.

[Balabanto]

Having just read over the rules again, I think I Dog is correct as concerns part of the problem.

Previous to RUE, an aimed shot took only 1 action. (page 34 in the original main Rifts book).

The fact that it would take 2 actions to cast a spell was irrelevant because as soon as the casting was complete, you could "aim" the magic blast, and therefore gain your sharpshooting bonus of +1 or +2 (most likely not more as a P.P. of 20 grants +1 and 25 grants +2) to your to hit roll.

Now in RUE, an aimed shot takes 2 actions. So now, EVERYONE with W.P. Sharpshooting looses out. The Battle Magus simply looses slightly more (if, and only if Magic Bolts was selected as a Sharpshooting prof). The men-in-arms characters loose on average +4: +6 to strike with EVERY shot (+3 with aimed shot (+4 if a pistol), +1 for P.P. 20, +1 more for P.P. 25). Battle Magi loose this, plus they loose the ability to "aim" most spells. In fact using the new rules I can only name 4 spells that can ever be aimed: Throwing Stones, Orb of Cold, Electric Arc, Ricochet Strike.

I don't like this, but its how the rules are written now.

As far as The Galactus Kid's idea about allowing P.P. bonus to hit, and also W.P. Targeting. I like the idea, but I also think it has couple of flaws.

First is that causes a minor problem for Line Walker and Mystic. Neither class gets a single W.P. as an O.C.C. skill. So this would mean that in order to ever get better at using your basic O.C.C. abilities you need to spend a related or secondary skill on a W.P. when every other class in the game that has weapon related abilities gets the associated W.P. automatically.

Because of this I think that Giant2005 has the right idea and spell strength should add to a spell's to hit roll.

However this can also cause a problem:

Look at the average + to strike with a ranged weapon. W.P. E Pistol: +1 at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15. W.P. E Rifle, and Handgun: +1 at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 12, 14. W.P. Rifle: +1 at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, but not 15. None of these add P.P. to strike. So if you say the average Line Walker has a P.P. of 18, thats a +2 to strike. If you add in Spell Strength, they get an additional +1 at levels 3, 7, 10, 13. If you also allow W.P. Targeting (which says that it ADDS to another W.P. if applicable) then they also get +1 to strike at 1, 3, 7, and 10.

So a typical 6th level Gunslinger would have +3 to strike with a normal shot at from a Energy Pistol or Handgun.

If you get P.P. and Spell Strength only:

A typical 6th level Line Walker would have a +3 to strike with a spell. And a Battle Magus (say P.P. 23) would have the same bonuses as as a Gunslinger (+3 with E Pistols and Handguns), and one higher than the Line walker (+4 with spells).

If you get P.P. and W.P. Targeting:

A typical 6th level Line Walker would have a +4 to strike with a spell. And a Battle Magus (say P.P. 23) would have the same bonuses as as a Gunslinger (+3 with E Pistols and Handguns), and two higher than the Line walker (+6 with spells).

If you get P.P., Spell Strength, and W.P. Targeting:

A typical 6th level Line Walker would have a +5 to strike with a spell. And a Battle Magus (say P.P. 23) would have the same bonuses as as a Gunslinger (+3 with E Pistols and Handguns), and one higher than the Line walker (+6 with spells).

I'm sorry, but I don't think any Practitioner of Magic O.C.C should have a higher to-hit-roll then a Men-in-Arms.

So, I would say you should add P.P. and Spell Strength to your to-hit-roll with spells, and only add W.P. Targeting when it specifically applies (Throwing Stones, Ricochet Shot with an appropriate weapon). I would also say "Proficiency" with attack spells is a class feature that all practitioners of magic automatically have.

Battle Magus is a man at arms OCC. Otherwise it would not be allowed Sharpshooting in the first place.