[fanbook] Free cattle and the great american desert

[glitterboy2098]

awhile back there was plans to make an ATB fanbook here on the boards, but it seems to have died off. but recently i've had some ideas on the topic, and how to incorporate things thought up in the previous discussions.
since i haven't got plans to try and write it up as a rifter article, i figure i should at least share it here.

first, lets start with a picture. map of north america

i've borrowed this picture from Fubarius, which he posted in the "great plains war" thread. i've borrowed a few of the ideas put forward in it, but took it my own, i think more interesting, way.

on to the map. the #1 indicates the region of the great eastern powers. Empire of humanity, cardania, gatorland, ect. the #2 indicates the great western powers, which can be found in the Roadhogs Suppliment.

so what exists between the two?

first is the Plains of free cattle. contrary to popular opinion, i have chosen to locate free cattle in the midwest, minnesota, missouri, iowa, ect. this region has some of the best cattle country in the east, combined with very good farmland. which makes the region ideal for semi-nomadic herd based groups. lots of cattle and horses even before the bomb, and the rich farmland makes for good fields for the herds, or farming villages for less nomadic herbivores. it also has an advantage of having few native carnivores left prior to the bomb. this location also gives free Cattle access to places like detroit and pittsburg, which give them locations with industrial capability, which while probably not run by free cattle itself, definately would trade with them.

the second big region is my idea. "the great american desert". this is not a new name. it was what the plains were called back before the 1800's. this is because the plains receive fairly little water, and thus little farming could be done there. it was not until the 1900's when the technology to access the underground aquifers came around that it became america's breadbasket.

in ATB, the technology that allowed the plains to be tamed to the plow is gone, and it has reverted to it's older state. almost entirely grassland with patches of trees and brush around wetter areas.

the great american desert is dominated by the ten tribes, large packs of Wolves and coyotes who have adopted the culture of the Great plains native americans. they prey on the herds of Bison and Horses that live a simple nomadic lifestyle. these herds in turn are often helped by members of Free Cattle, who wish to extend their region of control westward and see the Bison as natural allies in their cause. this has created the great plains war, as free cattle and the ten tribes clash for control over the great plains.

the great american desert is not just tribal wolves and herds of bison. it is also home to the Transporters, freelancers who run goods and people across the region between the east and west. spiritual decendants of teamsters and snowbirds, these freelancers are always on the move in their custom vehicles. they use all kinds. big rig trucks modified for offroad travel, small aircraft, sail powered landships, large wagons pulled by teams of bugs, anything that can move. these vehicles provide personal mobility and space for tradable goods, but also as homes, either directly or as the core of a campsite.
the great hub for the transporters is Douglas, a trading hub on the fringes of the western plains. this fortified city provides a place of safety fro mthe ten tribes and roadhogs, a place were transporters can meet and exchange goods, information, and stock up for the long run east. douglas has become such a hub due to the efforts of it's lords, the Jackalopes. these militant antlered jackrabbits run the city government like a well oiled military machine, and encourage traders and transporters to make use of the city as a source of supplies and intellegence. they also rent out their enforcers to bodyguard convoys of traders and transporters headed east, especially now that free cattle and the ten tribes have begun targeting convoys, which threatens to dry up trade.




well, that wound up more indepth than i had planned, but there you go. i think this would be a great basis for the fanbook that was planned for freecattle.

[Fubarius]

I like your take on it. Though your Road Hogs area is too big. The map in the RH book realy covers only a small area. I'm working on a map showing the exact size.

EDIT:

Here's the map (click on link, no image tags )...
http://members.aol.com/fubarius/freecat ... adhogs.jpg

[glitterboy2098]

well, i was guesstimating the extent of the pregunta, the roadhog's home territory, and the prarie dogs. after all, the roadhogs book didn't show the entire extent of those, just where they impinged on the californian groups.

i went with the arrangement i did because i didn't really think that Free Cattle should extend from sea to sea, otherwise there would be little to stop them from just steamrollering the eastern powers into submission. (not unlike the Mongol's back in the 1200's, which free Cattle sorta comes across like. you just need your kubla khan figure...)

by making them control the midwest it makes them more manageable, and it makes for a more interesting story, since they can still expand.

[glitterboy2098]

anyone have thoughts on other groups or places that could be added to this?

how about what new species are needed for the area?

[glitterboy2098]

You can also prune information from this thread: http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/foru ... 12&t=76433

yeah, forgot about that one.

maybe we can combine some of the proposed ideas from there? add a failing Arcology somewhere in the region
oh..oh...Arcosanti arcology in the making! or maybe expand on Biosphere 2?

or maybe both, plenty of space for multiple ones...maybe one even still has it's human population, paranoid and living in a completely sealed enviroment, leaving only in Hazmat enviroment suits and sealed vehicles...afraid of letting in whatever deadly illness killed off humanity into their homes...

we could add in more info on the prarie dog kingdom, which is on the southwestern edge of the region, the pregunta (southern border..), etc.

the idea of "the wasteland" as presented in that thread also appeals to me, perhaps the great plains have been dubbed "the wasteland" due to being so poorly populated and being (in post-crash times) all but unfarmable?


not sure how to approach NORAD, but i thin kthe idea of a mutant kingdom centered on it might be interesting. a nice counterpoint to Systems failure and other games where NORAD or the equivlent becomes a human stronghold...

[Fubarius]

You can also prune information from this thread: http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/foru ... 12&t=76433

yeah, forgot about that one.

maybe we can combine some of the proposed ideas from there? add a failing Arcology somewhere in the region
oh..oh...Arcosanti arcology in the making! or maybe expand on Biosphere 2?

or maybe both, plenty of space for multiple ones...maybe one even still has it's human population, paranoid and living in a completely sealed enviroment, leaving only in Hazmat enviroment suits and sealed vehicles...afraid of letting in whatever deadly illness killed off humanity into their homes...

I pondered this idea as well. I live near Minneapolis/St Paul and we have a lot of very large indoor shopping malls, including of course the giagantic Mall of America. Given a few decades I could easily see some of them growing large enough to support a full sealed society.

we could add in more info on the prarie dog kingdom, which is on the southwestern edge of the region, the pregunta (southern border..), etc.

the idea of "the wasteland" as presented in that thread also appeals to me, perhaps the great plains have been dubbed "the wasteland" due to being so poorly populated and being (in post-crash times) all but unfarmable?

I'd just pick an area and nuke the crap out of it. Probably somewhere there's a lot of ICBM silos, and most of those were in the northern plains. Those were (and probably still are) targeted by dozens and dozens of nuclear missiles each to overwhelm any defensive measures. Even if many were de-targeted, and others blocked by satellite defenses, you could still justify the area recieving many, many strikes. Radioactive craters, sandy areas turned to sheets of glass, scorched and burned out areas, etc.

Check out this site...
http://www.ki4u.com/webpal/d_resources/list.htm
Especially check the states in red.

not sure how to approach NORAD, but i thin kthe idea of a mutant kingdom centered on it might be interesting. a nice counterpoint to Systems failure and other games where NORAD or the equivlent becomes a human stronghold...

Not sure what to do with that either.

[glitterboy2098]

You can also prune information from this thread: http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/foru ... 12&t=76433

yeah, forgot about that one.

maybe we can combine some of the proposed ideas from there? add a failing Arcology somewhere in the region
oh..oh...Arcosanti arcology in the making! or maybe expand on Biosphere 2?

or maybe both, plenty of space for multiple ones...maybe one even still has it's human population, paranoid and living in a completely sealed enviroment, leaving only in Hazmat enviroment suits and sealed vehicles...afraid of letting in whatever deadly illness killed off humanity into their homes...

I pondered this idea as well. I live near Minneapolis/St Paul and we have a lot of very large indoor shopping malls, including of course the giagantic Mall of America. Given a few decades I could easily see some of them growing large enough to support a full sealed society.

i forgot about those, good point.

we could add in more info on the prarie dog kingdom, which is on the southwestern edge of the region, the pregunta (southern border..), etc.

the idea of "the wasteland" as presented in that thread also appeals to me, perhaps the great plains have been dubbed "the wasteland" due to being so poorly populated and being (in post-crash times) all but unfarmable?

I'd just pick an area and nuke the crap out of it. Probably somewhere there's a lot of ICBM silos, and most of those were in the northern plains. Those were (and probably still are) targeted by dozens and dozens of nuclear missiles each to overwhelm any defensive measures. Even if many were de-targeted, and others blocked by satellite defenses, you could still justify the area recieving many, many strikes. Radioactive craters, sandy areas turned to sheets of glass, scorched and burned out areas, etc.

Check out this site...
http://www.ki4u.com/webpal/d_resources/list.htm
Especially check the states in red.

well, being nuked would go along way to explaining why we never heard much about it before. though i would point out that fallout and nuclear blasts wouldn't leave a desert. as we've seen in Chernobyl, nature tends to make a big comeback real fast. (some excellent but creepy pictures of the area today can be found here.)

so it would still look largley like the great plains, it would just be rather dangerous to live in some spots...though glass craters and other "artifacts" of nuclear war would add alot of character to the region...

radiactive contamination would also make the need for the Transporters more important. they'd have the skills and knowledge to survive in the wasteland, and to lead others safely through.

fallout would also make for some interesting mutations in the local populations, both anthromorphized and 'natural' types of animals.* from the increased occurance of animal psionics to deformities, a table for being born in a irradiated region would be interesting.

likewise we could see lots of "wild mutations", where the mutant plague and high radiation combined to generate some very bizzare creatures.

* remember, only a fraction of the animal population in the world mutated to have human like attributes. the vast majority are still going to be largely unmutated animals like we know in reality.

not sure how to approach NORAD, but i thin kthe idea of a mutant kingdom centered on it might be interesting. a nice counterpoint to Systems failure and other games where NORAD or the equivlent becomes a human stronghold...

Not sure what to do with that either.

NORAD hasn't used the mountain complex for years now, it's moved in with space command at Peterson AFB in Colorado springs. having colorado springs, with peterson AFB, Fort Carson army base, Schriever AFB, and the Air Force Academy, along with all the industry, as some tech power would be interesting, if unbalancing.

alternately we could avoid the issue entirely with a carpet of overlapping 200kt city killers flattening the whole city, and a direct hit by a multi-megaton bunker buster on Cheyenne Mountain, resulting the fractured rock the facility sits in* to collapse on top of it.

leaving a radiactive ruin good only for scavenging the dregs of pre-crash tech...

*the mountain was discovered to have some very extensive cracks through it's structure, which threatens the structural integrity of the complex in an actual attack and sheds doubt onto it's ability to withstand a nuclear strike as originally planned...

[Rali]

I'm surprised that so many people think that all animal/insect life on the planet was mutated. I'm pretty sure it was mentioned near the beginning of the First Edition book that only a small percentage of animals were affected. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of First Edition AtB on hand to quote from.

I do have a copy of 2nd Edition AtB with me though.

Some animals were affected as well. About 25% of all primates, and 10% of mammals, as well as 2% of other creatures...Of those animals affected, most died, but about a third seemed to mutate as they recovered, gaining human traits.

At first it seemed that most of the surviving animals were unaffected. It wasn't until the next generation was born, that the extent of the plague was completely realized. The manufactured disease...was also infecting the offspring of many mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians, as well as a few fish, crustaceans and insects.

As you can see, only a very small percentage of animals were infected with the mutagen disease in the 2nd Edition setting.

[glitterboy2098]

correct. which means 75% of primates, 90% of all other mammals, and 98% of all other creatures were left uneffected.

and of those infected, 2/3rds just died.

hmm....trying to remember my division of fractions here...

so thats:
8.25% of primates mutated
3.33 of other mammals mutated
0.66% of non-mammals mutated
16.75% of primates died
6.667% of other mammals died
1.334% of non-mammals died
75% of primates were uneffected
90% of other mammals were uneffected
98% of non-mammals were uneffected

this is the toll for the mutagen plague. the nuclear war would screw up these numbers. nukes are an indescriminate killer, but because they were targeted at cities, bases, ect, would not really have a major impact on the unurbanized regions. and nature tends to reassert it's influence on places with vigor, so any losses in the unaltered animals would generally be replaced pretty quick.


so the world of ATB is one we would recognise, with birds in the trees, insects on the ground, cattle herds roaming the fields.....we'd never know we had left our world until we find a city ruin, or run into an anthromorphic animal...

[glitterboy2098]

here is a more complete map. photobucket reduced it's size considerably, so if anyone would like a larger copy (or a copy of the original unmodified US map i used), just PM me an E-mail address..

knowing photobucket would shrink it, i tried to use the biggest font i could for the labels, and use easily visible colors, so i apologise if it's kinda hard to read now, i tried my best.

[Fubarius]

More proof of the existence of non-mutant animals, as well as non-sentient, partially mutated animals can be found in the Wilderness Encounter Table, pg 186, AtB2.

16-25% "Non-Sentient Non-Mutated Animal." Basic plain everyday ordinary animal. No intelligence. No weird mutations. GM says they find a rabbit, it's a small, fuzzy wild animal that would taste good in a stew, NOT a person who wants to start a conversation.

26-30% "Non-Sentient Psionic Animal." Not intelligent, but a squirrel with Mind Trap, or a bobcat with Paralysis could be rather inconvenient.

31-35% "Non-Sentient Animal with Human Looks: Full." A moose, that thinks like a moose, acts like a moose, wanders through the forest eating plants like a moose, for all purposes IS a moose, just looks like a size level 17 MAN with full biped, hands, and looks. Or a size level 1 bird, looking like a tiny naked human, pitifully flapping it's tiny human arms trying to fly as it hops from branch to branch. Good old fashioned trippyness. Or pure nightmare fuel, depending on the GM.

36-40% "Partially-Sentient Natural-Looking Animal." So you find a bear. Looks like an ordinary non-mutant bear. Only problem is Yogi just happens to be smarter than the average bear. Not human level intelligence, but way smarter than your normal wild animal. He ain't falling for that simple trap you set for him. He might take the fact that you tried a bit personally. They also get a 10% chance of having 25 Bio-E of psionics. Yep, you're boned.

So out of the entire chart, there's a 25% chance of meeting a non-sentient animal. And a 10% chance of meeting a purely ordinary, non-mutant, plain-jane, run-of-the-mill critter (or small group of critters, or huge herd of critters, what ever fits the animal and setting).

More proof, the Animal Psionics of Animal Control and Animal Speech (page 61 and 62 or AtB2). Animal Control states, and I quote, "This allows a character to command non-sentient creatures of it's own kind." Bold added by me, but you can see with out non-sentient or non-mutant animals these two abilities would be practically useless.

How about the skill, Animal Husbandry (page 43), which states "This area of study provides the character with the knowledge in the care, feeding, breeding, reproduction, treatment, and behavior of non-sentient domestic animals." Note the italics are a direct quote from the book. See also the skills Skin and Prepare Animal Hides (which would be really creepy with out non-sentient animals running around), Trapping, Veterinary Medicine, Teamster/Wagoneer, and Farrier: Basic.

See also the "Attitude Toward Cannibalism" in the Alignment descriptions on pages 31 to 35. Many alignments make a very distinct difference between eating sentient and non-sentient creatures. Most non-evil carnivore characters, and even Aberrant Evil characters, would follow the "if it talks, it aint food" rule.

There's also mention of non-sentient animals in the Farrier and Teamster Apprenticeships on pages 39 and 40.

Are people actually Reading the books, or do people just skim through until they find the character creation info? The words "non-sentient", "non-intelligent", and "non-mutant" are used throughout the book.

EDIT: hey glitterboy2089, I have some server space available. You can e-mail me the file and I can host it for you (though I might convert it to a more efficent file format, .png is rather excessive). fubarius@gmail.com

[Fubarius]

Well, AtB1 is very, very short. A page of character creation, 9 pages total of setting background, 30 pages of adventures, and 3 pages of random encounters. It's labeled as a suppliment and that's all it really is, you can't even make a character with out a copy of TMNT. Nearly all the details of the setting are left up to individual GM's to fill in for themselves.

AtB2 is designed as a complete game. It's nearly 5 times as long. Instead of using a seperate book for the core rules, it restates them, and more fully fleshes them out for the specific setting. Since they're both written by Eric Wujick, it's safe to say that the second, longer, more updated version is closer to what he intended all along.

[glitterboy2098]

in any case, it doesn't really matter since any new material will generally be for the latest edition. since ATB2 says there are lots of non-sentient animals, we have to go with that. if someone wants to say otherwise in their games, ok. but it is up to that GM to tailor whatever we write to his games. so long as we don't contradict the official game material it shouldn't be a problem.

[Shawn Merrow]

Thanks for the map.

[Fubarius]

Here's a the full size map, all ready for download.
http://members.aol.com/fubarius/freecattle/ATB.jpg

[Rali]

And yet funny I took that quote to apply only to the Crash itself. Because the second paragraph goes onto state that the offspring were in fact, more mutated than their parents, thus leading to the large and varied amount of mutation of subsequent generations.

The offspring of many mammals, birds, reptiles, etc. Not most, a majority, or all animal life.

[glitterboy2098]

think about what you just said.

"Maybe it's a way to explain BIO-E since it states that the initial attack injected each infected animal with 5-30 BIO that resulted in the mutation. It's the fact that the offspring carried on the mutation and subsequent mutations "

in otherwords....the offspring of the infected who survived continued to mutate in each generation. which means if the animal wasn't infected to start with, it's offspring are left uneffected. which means the 90 something percent of the fauna on earth hasn't changed, and the only real differance is the descendants of that small % of animals infected and mutated have become new humanities.

we're not argueing that there are only marginal numbers of mutant animals. we know they went on to form societies, breed, ect. so there are plenty of walking, talking, mutant animals around.

our arguement is that there are still unmutated animals in numbers comparable to modern times.

[Rali]

Let's look at the numbers. Do the population numbers look like every animal was mutated?

Not even close.

[Fubarius]

Let's look at the numbers. Do the population numbers look like every animal was mutated?

Not even close.

Bingo.

Lets go with something easily counted (and slightly on-topic), the number of cows in the U.S.. Accorind to here...
http://www.nass.usda.gov/research/atlas02/
In 2002 there were about 94.5 MILLION cows in the U.S.

Something to consider.

[glitterboy2098]

I like this idea quite a bit.

i presume your referring ot the wasteland, not the topic drift about populations?

thanks. so does anyone have any ideas for expnading the concept further? new animals that wold be there, interesting locations, character class ideas that would be fun to see?

[Fubarius]

A wacky idea, maybe not class worthy, but could be a useful NPC.

Consider the fact that the modern dairy cow is nearly completely domesticated. Through selective breeding (and I we can assume future genetic tinkering in this setting), a dairy cow produces more milk than a calf can consume. In fact, if they're not milked by a farmer they can suffer serious infections. The unconsumed milk starts to go sour. I envision a group of mutant purebreed holstein dairy farmers. They consider themselves stewards and protectors of the ancient ancestral herds, which are not capable of survival in the wild. Sort of a mix between a dairy farmer and a monk. Animal Speech and Animal Control would be common in this group.

And since the area, as described under the purebreed holstein description in AtB2, does have a number of larger industrialized cities, in addition to wandering groups, we may need some more organized agriculture. The Commune Farmer/Rancher background I wrote up a while ago could work, with some tweaks.

Commune Farmer/Rancher
As villages and towns become more stable they need a larger, more stable food supply. Lone small farms are vulnerable to bandit and Empire of Humanity raids, so for safety and ease of working the land a number of smaller farms will join together to make a larger communal farm. Between 4 and 10 families (usually, but not always, of the same animal type) working and living together in a good sized walled compound, and tending possibly hundreds of acres of land and a large amount of livestock. Not as rustic as a Frontier character, but also not as civilized as a Villager. Children will often attend school in near by villages, especially during the winter. Larger communes may have their own teacher. The Commune will have 1 to 4 carefully restored, maintained, and closely guarded pre-crash tractors, one or two trucks, and a small arsenal of modern weapons for fending off bandits and Empire attacks.

Note: In general a commune of mutant animals will not raise any non-mutant animals of their own type. While there may seem to be advantages to raising livestock of the same type (animal control and animal speech psionics for example), there are some philosophical and ethical dilemmas to raising and butchering to sell an animal that could literally be a distant cousin. Or in the rare case where a non-mutant animal gives birth to an intelligent mutant, a parent. In the case that one of the livestock does give birth to an intelligent mutant the newborn is taken to a neighboring commune of the appropriate animal type, or the nearest village.

New Note: This will probably be a non-issue in a Free Cattle area, where the raising of livestock will be nearly nonexistent. I left it in for use in other locations.

Apprenticeship: Choose one from Armorer, Farrier, Healer, Mechanic, Teamster, or Weaponsmith.

Primary Skills: Farming & Gardening, Animal Husbandry (if Farrier or Teamster apprenticeship is chosen add +15% to this skill), WP Bolt Action Rifle, 2 other Weapon Proficiencies, Pilot Construction & Farming Equipment, 1 other from Pilot, and 4 from Domestic, Scientific (Biology, Botany, or Chemistry only), or Technical.

Secondary Skills: Choose any 5 (seems small, but farming/ranching is a busy life, doesn't leave much free time)

Special Bonuses: +2 PE, +1 PS

Money: Varies with the season, with them having the most money right after harvest. Roll 1D20 times 100 Bucks.

Equipment: Sturdy set of clothes, traveling gear, and one weapon (usually a bolt action rifle). They generally travel light to start since characters of this background usually plan on returning home to the commune in time for planting or harvest. Whether or not they make it home is up to the GM.

Relatives & Connections: Character has dozens of friends and family in his home compound, as well as large numbers of friends and acquaintances in nearby communes. Can seek refuge in nearly any commune they come across. Knows most of the local merchants as well, but is generally distrusts and is distrusted by villagers.

New Note: The larger comunnes will probably be regular stops for many nomadic tribes, as both a safe camp site, and a place to re-stock food supplies.

[glitterboy2098]

actually, thats not a bad idea. i know i wrote up my thoughts on free cattle assuming non-nomadic farming and industrial settlements, so that character class would be a good addition. and it would fit into the east and west coasts, as well as the wasteland (there has to be some settlements there)

we need a class for the more nomadic groups, maybe borrow a bit from native americans mixed with some Mongloian elements as a start...

[Fubarius]

I have a few ideas for nomads, I just need to get them written down. I just need to flesh a few things out. Take your pick of the following...

Tech level....
Very primitive. Walking place to place, using few tools, general distrust of technology.

Low tech. Walking, possibly riding something, or being pulled in carts. Could use giant insects, have a certain percentage of the tribe being non-bipedal (so 'cart puller' would be their job description), or use non-mutant animals (unlikely in the proposed setting, but I'll toss it out there anyways). Spears, tents, with the occasional more modern traded item.

Scavenged tech. Using pre-crash vehicles and tech. Very Mad Max, a lot of rusty metal and improvised repairs. Traveling from ruined city to ruined city, gathering salvage to use or trade to villages.

Medium tech. Well maintained pre-crash vehicles and tech, and newly produced equipment equal to mid to late 20th century bought or bartered from the villages and cities. Cars, trucks pulling trailers, RV's, and so on. Modern weapons and gear.

High tech. Better than todays stuff. Golden age gear and tech. (unlikely, but again, I'll toss it out there)

Strange mix. Robot horses pulling covered wagons with mounted machine guns. Or what ever other wacky ideas you have.

Human-ness...
Beastial. Low instance of hands and bi-ped. No human looks. Little, or very simple clothing. Little need for civilized comforts. From a distance it would look like a herd of non-mutants.

Furry. No looks most common, with the occasional partial. Full hands and biped common, though a good mix of none and partial present. Acts more or less human'like, though certain animal behaviors are noticable. Clothing considered normal, though designs may differ to work with different body types.

Partial. Occasional full looks, with partial looks being very common. Acts nearly completely like a modern human, with animalistic behavior being frowned oppon.

Full. Looks full very common, with the occasional looks partial. From a distance you wouldn't know they're mutated animals. Might even 'think' they're fully human.

Xenophobia...
High. "Stay back stranger, we can hear you from there. No need for your trinkets. Now turn around and head back the way you came"

Medium. "Howdy stranger. The rest of my group? They're over yonder, you don't need to know exactly where. We may have some good scrounge to trade for some foodstuffs if you got anything. My boys? They're here to made sure you don't pull a fast one on us."

Low. "Greetings friends! Glad to see a friendly face. Come, join our tribe for supper. We're interested in the local news, and we may have a tale or two to share from our travels."

Of course, all that could make a pretty useful random roll table for quick-roll nomad tribes.

[gordyzx9r]

I don't like it because I don't believe mutant animals are going to eat other mutant animals...and I believe the book alludes to this being the case. Now, maybe diabolical sects that have some kinda insane religious reason for eating other sentient beings...maybe.

[Rali]

I don't like it because I don't believe mutant animals are going to eat other mutant animals...and I believe the book alludes to this being the case. Now, maybe diabolical sects that have some kinda insane religious reason for eating other sentient beings...maybe.

Each alignment has it's opinion on "Cannibalism". In this games case, Cannibalism is seen as one "sentient" animal eating the flesh of another "sentient" animal. And by sentient the game is referring to those with human equivalent intelligence.

[glitterboy2098]

and that should be looked at as "in regards to normal diet". culturally, there is no reason why ritualized cannibalism, as a religious or mystical thing, could not exist in an otherwise normal, non-insane, culture, especially those of tribal cultures. it's fairly common in primative human cultures, why not animal ones? especially when most predators don't seem to have much aversion to the practise of eating ones own dead.

[Rali]

and that should be looked at as "in regards to normal diet". culturally, there is no reason why ritualized cannibalism, as a religious or mystical thing, could not exist in an otherwise normal, non-insane, culture, especially those of tribal cultures. it's fairly common in primative human cultures, why not animal ones? especially when most predators don't seem to have much aversion to the practise of eating ones own dead.

I agree with you 100%. Cannibalism is most commonly a social practice. It's when you find the lone cannibal that it tends to be a rather deviant case brought about some trauma or need for survival. Very rarely is cannibalism attributed to evilness.

[gordyzx9r]

I disagree that it was common in primitive human cultures, IIRC there are only a few instances of this and it's moot since the mutant animals aren't coming into being in the same way "primitive human cannibals" did. And predators eating their dead or the rotting remains of carcasses is going to change when they've suddenly starting suffering from having morals thrust upon them. Everyone plays their game different. I only allow cannibalism as I interpret it to be written in the book and that's in rare situations primarily focused around evil.

[Rali]

I disagree that it was common in primitive human cultures

Sorry, I didn't mean that primitive cultures were commonly cannibalistic, nor that the cultures that it exists or existed in needed to be "primitive". I meant that in the instances of cannibalism - rare as they may be - it was usually a matter of a social norm as opposed to an aberrant behavior. Also, a social group in which cannibalism exists doesn't need to be any larger than a family or clan.

Cannibalism does not have to be a part of any game in AtB. From the few times I talked with Erick, I'm sure it was added because it could have been an issue when you deal with anthropomophised predators and prey.

[gordyzx9r]

Cannibalism does not have to be a part of any game in AtB. From the few times I talked with Erick, I'm sure it was added because it could have been an issue when you deal with anthropomophised predators and prey.

From what I heard him say of it, he detested the idea of it but knew that there were people out there that would make an issue out of it.

[glitterboy2098]

I disagree that it was common in primitive human cultures, IIRC there are only a few instances of this and it's moot since the mutant animals aren't coming into being in the same way "primitive human cannibals" did. And predators eating their dead or the rotting remains of carcasses is going to change when they've suddenly starting suffering from having morals thrust upon them. Everyone plays their game different. I only allow cannibalism as I interpret it to be written in the book and that's in rare situations primarily focused around evil.

morality is not an absolute. it is aquired. you cannot have morals "thrust apon you' just because your brain goes into overdrive. you have to learn them. and each cultures morals will differ.

and mutant animals are coming into being the way primative human societies did. they started at animal level minds and grew smarter. just like human ancestors did. mutant animals might have taken less time to do so than human ancestors did, but its the same thing. mutant animals had to devise their own society. those taken in by the remaining humans might have adopted largely human concepts, but those who didn't, who were not lucky enough to live near human civilization, those who lived in the wilds (remember this is a viable character class even in ATB1), would have to figure this stuff out themselves. including devising their own moral codes. and those codes will be based more on thier experiances in the wild and their instincts as animals than on constructed human concepts.

Cannibalism does not have to be a part of any game in AtB. From the few times I talked with Erick, I'm sure it was added because it could have been an issue when you deal with anthropomophised predators and prey.

From what I heard him say of it, he detested the idea of it but knew that there were people out there that would make an issue out of it.

do you think i like the idea? i loath it just as much. but i'm not going to fool myself by saying it only occurs in cases of insanity or "evil". there are too many instances of ritual or religious cannibalism in too many socities to say that.

and Erick did mention it. he just didn't give a definative for any of the alignments. so the issue is up to those of us playing and runnign the game to decide on. and since there is no definitive, there is nothing to stop us from saying that some mutant societies have cannibalism as a mystical or social status thing.

[glitterboy2098]

ok, back on topic.

i had one idea that might be interesting to look at for the wasteland.

as this map shows (i'm trying to find a higher resolution version, apologies), the great plains and the midwest are crisscrossed by hundreds of railroad tracks. and since railroads are a more efficent means of moving bulk cargo long distances overland compared to planes or trucks (especially now with our emphasis on cleaner transport options), it stands to reason that in the pre-crash era, the railroad lines would have been expanded, both for cargo and passenger use. (here's a map from the Federal railroad administration showing major railroutes in current use...)

while i suspect most of the trains themselves would probably not be working, the tracks themselves (especially if they replaced worn out rails with newer tougher materials) would still be mostly intact. and new track can always be layed.

so this could be an interesting option for my Transporter class idea. make them post-crash train engineers, using various vehicles to ride the rails between east and west.

[Rali]

while i suspect most of the trains themselves would probably not be working, the tracks themselves (especially if they replaced worn out rails with newer tougher materials) would still be mostly intact. and new track can always be layed.

so this could be an interesting option for my Transporter class idea. make them post-crash train engineers, using various vehicles to ride the rails between east and west.

Of course, it's also possible that the rail system could have been mothballed at some point before the crash or replaced with some other system. There were several railroads that went through my area that have been removed and replaced with bike trails.

Regardless, it would make an interesting class. It would give a while new meaning to railroading your players.

[Fubarius]

Did anyone else have a Beyond Thunderdome flashback?

I like the train idea, gives the option of having players preventing, or pulling off, train robberies.

[glitterboy2098]

while i suspect most of the trains themselves would probably not be working, the tracks themselves (especially if they replaced worn out rails with newer tougher materials) would still be mostly intact. and new track can always be layed.

so this could be an interesting option for my Transporter class idea. make them post-crash train engineers, using various vehicles to ride the rails between east and west.

Of course, it's also possible that the rail system could have been mothballed at some point before the crash or replaced with some other system. There were several railroads that went through my area that have been removed and replaced with bike trails.

i've heard about the whole roads to trails thing, but i don't imagine that the entire railway network is going to be junked anytime soon. too important to trade, and with recent developments in high efficency low-emissions trians, high speed trains, and so on, i suspect it'll still be around for a bit. heck, it takes less fuel to move cargo coast to coast by rail than it takes to move the same amount by plane. and that was before the newer engines... and trains can deliver it all in one go, instead of hundreds of jets.

besides, if the trains are gone, where is the fun? the wasteland would be just "roadhogs redux".

Regardless, it would make an interesting class. It would give a while new meaning to railroading your players.

Did anyone else have a Beyond Thunderdome flashback?

I like the train idea, gives the option of having players preventing, or pulling off, train robberies.

or "indian" (wolf tribes) attacks on the "iron horses"......

we can even delve into alternative rail travel. like cars fitted with wheels to ride the rails, speeders, railcars, handcars...and various different modes of propulsion. gasoline/desiel/biofuel, windpower (using tethered kites maybe? for small carts only i'd think), hand/pedal power, steam...


it also gives us another chaacter class...some sort of Railroad police. maybe merge that idea with the old west ideas of US Marshal's and Texas Rangers....

[gordyzx9r]

and mutant animals are coming into being the way primative human societies did. they started at animal level minds and grew smarter. just like human ancestors did. mutant animals might have taken less time to do so than human ancestors did, but its the same thing. mutant animals had to devise their own society. those taken in by the remaining humans might have adopted largely human concepts, but those who didn't, who were not lucky enough to live near human civilization, those who lived in the wilds (remember this is a viable character class even in ATB1), would have to figure this stuff out themselves. including devising their own moral codes. and those codes will be based more on thier experiances in the wild and their instincts as animals than on constructed human concepts.

Almost every description of every society in the AtB books is derived from human cultures...even the cannibals in the Yucatan weren't actually cannibals. IMO, you're not giving the mutant animals of AtB enough credit...if it was hundreds of years between the fall of man and the rise of the mutant animals then I might entertain this but based off information in the books it hasn't even been 100 years yet so most of the 'new' cultures and societies already have recent blueprints to work off of.

[Rali]

besides, if the trains are gone, where is the fun? the wasteland would be just "roadhogs redux".

And therein lies the best reason to assume that the rails still exist. Because it would be fun.

[BookWyrm]

I would think that, there are some places that would be RoadHogs Redux, for the simple fact that some communities would be isolated, because at least some percentage of rail-tracks would be in need of replacement/repair & there wouldn't be enough resouces to do them all.

[glitterboy2098]

I would think that, there are some places that would be RoadHogs Redux, for the simple fact that some communities would be isolated, because at least some percentage of rail-tracks would be in need of replacement/repair & there wouldn't be enough resouces to do them all.

sure, but by talking another route, we only have to deal with such issues in passing, not as a focus. we can direct GM's to RoadHogs for most of the finer details on things like madmax-style vehicles, and focus on the differences there.

and communities within the wasteland are probably going to be small and/or rare. remember, the great plains are pretty barren. there isn't enough water to support most agriculture (unless you tap the aquifers, which is going to be a rare thing for ATB, IMO), there are few natural resources to mine or gather, and the place is mildy radioactive due to the nuclear war.

within the wasteland however you'd find plenty of reasons to pass through. salvage, for example. even nuked, most of the cities and old military bases would be a treasure trove of artifacts and goods, and i'd suspect there is a big salvage industry to support the railroads, pulling up old section of track being unused or that are dead ends, and selling them to the companies who need to maintain their useable stretches of track.

[mr.phillup]

I did a write up awhile back on Area 51 and its outposts. If you want check it out just let me know.

[glitterboy2098]

I did a write up awhile back on Area 51 and its outposts. If you want check it out just let me know.

sounds like it could be fun. could you post a summary?

[mr.phillup]

In it I have a brief write up about the past and why Gloom lake base was built. Then I jump to the history after the crash and how the survivors and the aliens housed there deal. I touch on the Prairie Dog Imperium and its leadership in my history. I gave the leadership of Base City, new and updated species, and equipment. As well as places around town, NPCs, and a few hook-line and sinkers.

[glitterboy2098]

ugh. aliens.

no offense, it's probably well written. but i personally loath the "it's Area 51, it has to have aliens" mentality of so many games, movies, and comics. just because it's a base that has strict secrecy surrounding it and works with advanced technology doesn't mean it has to be alien.

while ATB stemmed from a superheroic setting, and thus would probably survive alien technology being added if handled right, i personally think it would ultimately detract from the setting. given the known human technology pre-crash (quantum devices, memory metals, traction drives, extensive genetic engineering, ect), any alien tech would have to ultimately more advanced (which rapidly gets into the "munchkin" and unbalancing) or be the source of all the human tech (which removes about half the feel of the setting, that of mutant animals grubbing about trying to make use of the remains left by humanity.)

and frankly, it's not really needed. there is so much real world technology that hasn't made it into ATB that you can easily just have Nellis AFB and the Groom lake facility be a repository for advanced (or just different) human technologies, that human survivors or mutant discoverers have found and are exploiting. heck, off the top of my head, i can name a few technologies we already have, which with a little RPG handwaving, can be perfected and used. the Avrocar and similar, Gyrojet weaponry (including guided projectile versions), MHD generators, metamaterials.....all of which can be the source of "thar's aliens in them that hills" rumors in ATB, while being plain but distinct human technology.

(personally i beleive that sort of thing to be the source of the alien rumors relating ot the base in the first place. it's the place they test stealth planes, Extreme manueverability testbeds, captured russian aircraft, experimental aircraft, and so on. combined with the extreme secrecy surrounding it (a must when the stuff they work with is to be the next generation of advanced systems), and sightings of strange unknown aircraft, and it's inevitble you get people saying it's alien.

[mr.phillup]

ugh. aliens.

no offense, it's probably well written. but i personally loath the "it's Area 51, it has to have aliens" mentality of so many games, movies, and comics. just because it's a base that has strict secrecy surrounding it and works with advanced technology doesn't mean it has to be alien.

while ATB stemmed from a superheroic setting, and thus would probably survive alien technology being added if handled right, i personally think it would ultimately detract from the setting. given the known human technology pre-crash (quantum devices, memory metals, traction drives, extensive genetic engineering, ect), any alien tech would have to ultimately more advanced (which rapidly gets into the "munchkin" and unbalancing) or be the source of all the human tech (which removes about half the feel of the setting, that of mutant animals grubbing about trying to make use of the remains left by humanity.)

and frankly, it's not really needed. there is so much real world technology that hasn't made it into ATB that you can easily just have Nellis AFB and the Groom lake facility be a repository for advanced (or just different) human technologies, that human survivors or mutant discoverers have found and are exploiting. heck, off the top of my head, i can name a few technologies we already have, which with a little RPG handwaving, can be perfected and used. the Avrocar and similar, Gyrojet weaponry (including guided projectile versions), MHD generators, metamaterials.....all of which can be the source of "thar's aliens in them that hills" rumors in ATB, while being plain but distinct human technology.

(personally i beleive that sort of thing to be the source of the alien rumors relating ot the base in the first place. it's the place they test stealth planes, Extreme manueverability testbeds, captured russian aircraft, experimental aircraft, and so on. combined with the extreme secrecy surrounding it (a must when the stuff they work with is to be the next generation of advanced systems), and sightings of strange unknown aircraft, and it's inevitble you get people saying it's alien.

Those are all good points sir. This was a jump off point to the moon base, space program, Type 1 armor and new aircraft. I said it was reengineered from the alien tech. The aliens are affected by the crash as well giving them BIO-E that causes them to devolved. Pull the aliens out and you have all the same things you asked for. But I did enjoy hearing your thoughts.

[Mechanurgist]

I have been trying to update the Road hogs book. In doing so I rewrote the map and am planing on adapting the places to my new map.

Is this map and updated setting available for preview? I was thinking of making a unified AtB map as well with some modern tools.

[Mechanurgist]

Drop.io is where I keep all my stuff these days. Simple, anonymous, no malware and very few ads. Thanks.

[Mechanurgist]

Cool, thanks. I came up with something similar when I flooded my maps of North America.

Did you have a writeup to go with it?

[Tricky]

It's good to see people still working on AtB stuff; this is still one of my favorite games.

I had an idea for some strangeness to add to a campaign. Basicly, my idea was that there was a biotech company that was pushing the boundaries of what they could do with gentetic engineering. They were recreating extinct species, cobbleing chimeras, and possibly tampering with human genetics. After the Crash, some of their stuff survived. I had envisioned some sort of "stasis" device, with pods containing embryos, acting as a "Tree of Life", with decendants of the experiments/scientists bringing forth the creatures in the pods as they saw fit.
For my own ideas, I placed this facility in the Ohio River Valley (unexplored territory to the Atb groups), but it could be placed almost anywhere (like Area 51, for example).
Maybe someday I'll get around to fleshing it out!