Why play a human?

[Spinachcat]

If you just look at stats, humans look unappealing compared to many other potential races to play in Rifts. To help GMs explain why its great to play a human in Rifts, let's put together a quick set of ideas to promote humanity!

Here's the rules for the thread. First, list three reasons why humans are excellent choices for player characters. Then, debate as you like. Here's my three:

1) Most everybody on Earth is human. Being human makes it easier to blend into the society and make contacts with other humans.

2) Stuff is built human size. Everything from vehicles to doorways to beds to chairs are almost always built for the human body, bone structure and weight.

3) Body language is species specific. Humans move their faces and bodies differently than some creature built by other biological standards. Since most of face to face communication is non-verbal, most non-humans will come off pretty creepy and quite often misunderstood even when using the right words.

[The Galactus Kid]

because crrazy augmentation, juicer augmentation, cybernetic augmentation, genetic enhancement, magic, psionics, power armor, robots, vehicles and others are all at your disposal.

[csbioborg]

becasue you get to play a man in those most dangerous of time where the xenos and daemonic have conquered your land. As one of humanity's wariors you stand as a champion of presevation of human society, preservation of human values, preservation of Earth from the corruption of the rifts.

As ahuman in the Emperor's army you stand ready to fight for Holy Earth and the Coalition States.

Besides if you want to roleplay a greek god that's fine but roleplaying like that is only fun for awhile

slaughtering the unclean on the other hand...

[taalismn]

Because as a meatbag at the near bottom of the new food chain, your victories will be all the sweeter for the odds you've had to overcome ...
And if you become a bloodstain speck-note in a volume of history; well, you can easily roll up a new character with less baggage...

[glitterboy2098]

the majority of the cool and powerful hardware (robots, PA, body armor, weapons, planes, tanks, ect) are designed for human use, and many other races will have a harder time using it. the ones that can without trouble are largelt human in their statistics (elves, dwarves, ect)

[ZorValachan]

The GM (me) only allows Humans and dog boys as Player Characters in Rifts since the 'chose any race any O.C.C. in the megaverse' campaign.....

[runebeo]

Playing a human in a game where anything not full human is prosecuted has it's advantages. That being said playing non-human races can be a blast and adds extra conflict to even simple quest. So a dragon hatchling character saves a village from a Brodkill tribe or some other threat only to be attacked by the villagers or they treat him well only to await CS backup to collect the bounty. It's pretty hard for a non-human to ever enter Chi-Town or any of the main fortified cities. Playing something non-human such as a hatchling can really expand your options and bring some spice to your game. I personally never played a hatchling because I'm against the teleportation ability, because it can be easily abused and can kill some of danger of certain events. Our group usually play very human looking D-bees such as True Atlanteans, Psi-Stalkers, Changelings & Godlings. So I guess our group just want to be something more than human while keeping the human appearance to still fit in without none of the negatives of being openly non-human. I starting to see this as being a little unfair that so many human looking races have so many advantages over being a plain human, oh well at least my character can take a Glitter Boy boom gun blast or two without armor, now that's got to be worth something.

[Starmage21]

I dont like to play humans because I play one every day IRL

[Library Ogre]

Palladium tends towards the older style, wherein humans represent that "average" of the system, and gain few advantages because of that. It's a relatively newer school wherein humans have distinct advantages, or at least have the advantage of not having to pay to be human (and thus having a portion of extra points that others do not).

[Library Ogre]

Palladium tends towards the older style, wherein humans represent that "average" of the system, and gain few advantages because of that. It's a relatively newer school wherein humans have distinct advantages, or at least have the advantage of not having to pay to be human (and thus having a portion of extra points that others do not).

What you talkin' 'bout, Willis? Point-buy character generation?

Palladium is of an older style of game design, wherein humans represent an average, with few distinct benefits.

In newer level-based game designs (such as 3.x), humans have distinct advantages. In some newer game designs (GURPS, from 1986, is the earliest that comes to mind), playing a human gives you nothing, but playing something else costs you points or priorities (you might think of Shadowrun, from 1989, where being a metahuman gave you +3 stat points, and a vision mod, if not built-in armor and resistance to various ailments, but required you to spend your highest priority on race, reducing your available points elsewhere accordingly).

It depends on the age of the system, and some design choices made.

[Dog_O_War]

Why play a human?

• It's the only race available if you only own R:UE, and several select merc/bionics books (me, until I got Canada and Dee-Bees of NA). And even then, it isn't actually listed - the book just tells you to roll stats; we're just assuming it's for a human.

Why else would you play a human?

• The other races are lack-lustre, or are otherwise pointless to your Headhunter/PA pilot fantasies (me again).
  
• You prefer to avoid Tolkeen races because you play two other games with them.
  
• You have a serious hate-on for races with the worst possible names. Ever. Jokes are easy enough to come by, I don't need Floopers or Fingertooth-Carpetbaggers "inserted" into a game. As well, Cactus-people? Is that the best name available? There was no possible subtlety left for them - pachycereus hominidae-pringlei was otherwise taken?
  
• There are enough freaks in the party.
  
• There are enough freaks at your table.
  
• You like the under-dog.

[The Galactus Kid]

Why play a human?

• It's the only race available if you only own R:UE, and several select merc/bionics books (me, until I got Canada and Dee-Bees of NA). And even then, it isn't actually listed - the book just tells you to roll stats; we're just assuming it's for a human.

Dog boys and Dragons.

Why else would you play a human?

• The other races are lack-lustre, or are otherwise pointless to your Headhunter/PA pilot fantasies (me again).
  
• You prefer to avoid Tolkeen races because you play two other games with them.
  
• You have a serious hate-on for races with the worst possible names. Ever. Jokes are easy enough to come by, I don't need Floopers or Fingertooth-Carpetbaggers "inserted" into a game. As well, Cactus-people? Is that the best name available? There was no possible subtlety left for them - pachycereus hominidae-pringlei was otherwise taken?
  
• There are enough freaks in the party.
  
• There are enough freaks at your table.
  
• You like the under-dog.

lol. Especially point three. If I told you where I got some of the names for races, you'd be very mad and would probably find me and beat me, dog.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

[*]There are enough freaks in the party.

[*]There are enough freaks at your table.

true

[Dog_O_War]

Why play a human?

• It's the only race available if you only own R:UE, and several select merc/bionics books (me, until I got Canada and Dee-Bees of NA). And even then, it isn't actually listed - the book just tells you to roll stats; we're just assuming it's for a human.

Dog boys and Dragons.

Forgot about those. Especially the Dog-boy ; one of the few I actually like to play.
Dragons don't count. I find it retarded that a person wants to play an infant in a game, and they otherwise reak of Baby Geniuses. As well, some people (girls are especially bad for this) play the dragon as a curious cat, or kender - this annoys me (and every group I've ever played with) to no end

Why else would you play a human?

• The other races are lack-lustre, or are otherwise pointless to your Headhunter/PA pilot fantasies (me again).
  
• You prefer to avoid Tolkeen races because you play two other games with them.
  
• You have a serious hate-on for races with the worst possible names. Ever. Jokes are easy enough to come by, I don't need Floopers or Fingertooth-Carpetbaggers "inserted" into a game. As well, Cactus-people? Is that the best name available? There was no possible subtlety left for them - pachycereus hominidae-pringlei was otherwise taken?
  
• There are enough freaks in the party.
  
• There are enough freaks at your table.
  
• You like the under-dog.

lol. Especially point three. If I told you where I got some of the names for races, you'd be very mad and would probably find me and beat me, dog.

I really, seriously hope you aren't the one responsible for Aliens Unlimited, because I seriously hate last-minute plane-ticket prices.

[The Galactus Kid]

Why play a human?

• It's the only race available if you only own R:UE, and several select merc/bionics books (me, until I got Canada and Dee-Bees of NA). And even then, it isn't actually listed - the book just tells you to roll stats; we're just assuming it's for a human.

Dog boys and Dragons.

Forgot about those. Especially the Dog-boy ; one of the few I actually like to play.
Dragons don't count. I find it retarded that a person wants to play an infant in a game, and they otherwise reak of Baby Geniuses. As well, some people (girls are especially bad for this) play the dragon as a curious cat, or kender - this annoys me (and every group I've ever played with) to no end

Why else would you play a human?

• The other races are lack-lustre, or are otherwise pointless to your Headhunter/PA pilot fantasies (me again).
  
• You prefer to avoid Tolkeen races because you play two other games with them.
  
• You have a serious hate-on for races with the worst possible names. Ever. Jokes are easy enough to come by, I don't need Floopers or Fingertooth-Carpetbaggers "inserted" into a game. As well, Cactus-people? Is that the best name available? There was no possible subtlety left for them - pachycereus hominidae-pringlei was otherwise taken?
  
• There are enough freaks in the party.
  
• There are enough freaks at your table.
  
• You like the under-dog.

lol. Especially point three. If I told you where I got some of the names for races, you'd be very mad and would probably find me and beat me, dog.

I really, seriously hope you aren't the one responsible for Aliens Unlimited, because I seriously hate last-minute plane-ticket prices.

LOL. No, but you can thank Wayne breaux for that one.

[Dog_O_War]

LOL. No, but you can thank Wayne breaux for that one.

I'll do it over tea. I wonder if he'd like one lump, or two?

[dark brandon]

Because humans have very little restrictions.

Humans are diverse. You can be very evil-very good. very weak-very powerful, and have the majority of OCC's availible to them, as well as a huge list of enhancments.

[Severite]

Actually, I find humans to be some of the best races for NA.......can go just about anywhere, and you dont end up sitting a session out because your hatchling dragon would be too expensive to try and sneak into the CS supercity, to play the CS intrigue story he came up with last week and is dying to try out.

[johnkretzer]

Because concept requires it....and really in the end it just doesn't matter. I have seen a demigod with special forces O.C.C and one of the cheesy MAs forms and robotic armor wiped out in one round.

Lets be honest here who do shoot at first? The guy in crusader armor firing a 1d6 x 10 rifle or the four armed giant thing who is cutting through you like nothing?

Rifts is a deadly game enough that I really think most of the MDC R.C.Cs won't add enough to your survival where playing one doesn't matter enough.

Now that being said I have played only one human character( a Gyspie Healer) who got killed though another PC's stupid actions. Other than that I have played a Cold-blooded assasin Zenith Moon Warper(who also died), a Elven Mind Melter, another Zenith Moon Warper who is trying to be a hero, and I have in partial creation a human Knight of the White Rose ready as back up. Oh way I also had a colye hyperion juicer named Wile E Coyote but I lost that character sheet.

[Dog_O_War]

Palladium tends towards the older style, wherein humans represent that "average" of the system, and gain few advantages because of that. It's a relatively newer school wherein humans have distinct advantages, or at least have the advantage of not having to pay to be human (and thus having a portion of extra points that others do not).

Show me one race that's weaker then humans. I can show you many that are a lot stronger. And many that are stronger in almost every way.
Why do I play a human, because my GM requires it.

This is a flawed arguement, as there are dozens of races that are weaker and stronger at the same time.

Take (for instance) the Grackletooth. Superior (statistically) in almost every way. Can they be Juicers? No. I call that a disadvantage. Can they be Glitterboy pilots? No. I call that a disadvantage. Can they be juiced Glitterboy pilots? No. Again, another disadvantage.

They are extremely limited in their choice of equipment, and more often than not a human can become physically equal to the supposedly superior races - like the Mega-Juicer, for example.

As well, alot of races are weak in a stat that humans aren't. A Brodkil Demon is effectively mentally handicapped by human standards. I don't call that superior.

[Severite]

because the CS and NGR dont hate Humans......

FTW, heh

[Killer Cyborg]

Palladium tends towards the older style, wherein humans represent that "average" of the system, and gain few advantages because of that. It's a relatively newer school wherein humans have distinct advantages, or at least have the advantage of not having to pay to be human (and thus having a portion of extra points that others do not).

Show me one race that's weaker then humans. I can show you many that are a lot stronger. And many that are stronger in almost every way.
Why do I play a human, because my GM requires it.

Goblins and Kobolds come to mind.
Gnomes aren't so hot either.

But the main reason to play a human is simply because they're cool, not because of their stats.
If high stats is all you're interested in, I wouldn't bother running a game for you in the first place.

[Library Ogre]

Palladium tends towards the older style, wherein humans represent that "average" of the system, and gain few advantages because of that. It's a relatively newer school wherein humans have distinct advantages, or at least have the advantage of not having to pay to be human (and thus having a portion of extra points that others do not).

Show me one race that's weaker then humans. I can show you many that are a lot stronger. And many that are stronger in almost every way.
Why do I play a human, because my GM requires it.

There's a race in Manhunter that has utter crap for stats.

As for races that are weaker than humans? Well, it depends. Are you going to only consider the individual human, stripped naked and put on an empty plain? Or are you going to consider the human race, with a few thousand years of technological advancement on its own before forcibly becoming part of the megaversal community?

[csbioborg]

you know a large portion of this game is makinds stuggle against the magically endowed dbee.

Sure a human is not able to hurt a dbee with his bare hands (unless he has martial arts powers or the like). That is the selling point of rifts. The demons and dbees have taken over your world. You as a member of the Coalition forces are doing your best against implacable odds and often times winning.

Its humanity's phiscal weakness that spurs it to innovate in the face of the4 dbee menace.

Basically your espusing the same arugement I have used to justify the CS Campaign of Unity.

Your the guy that knows if there ever is equlity the dbbees are going to take over. They are smarter stronger in every way. Does that give them the right to take over your world or is it more reason to kill every last one of them while yelling go back from were you camwe from this is humanity's world.

That is the beuty of the game. Unthinable acts by modern standard like genocide and torture are merely tools for survival for a man living in those darkest of times.

This game is a back drop for a stroy of human will defying intellect and raw strneghth

[Greyaxe]

you know a large portion of this game is makinds stuggle against the magically endowed dbee.

Sure a human is not able to hurt a dbee with his bare hands (unless he has martial arts powers or the like). That is the selling point of rifts. The demons and dbees have taken over your world. You as a member of the Coalition forces are doing your best against implacable odds and often times winning.

Its humanity's phiscal weakness that spurs it to innovate in the face of the4 dbee menace.

Basically your espusing the same arugement I have used to justify the CS Campaign of Unity.

Your the guy that knows if there ever is equlity the dbbees are going to take over. They are smarter stronger in every way. Does that give them the right to take over your world or is it more reason to kill every last one of them while yelling go back from were you camwe from this is humanity's world.

That is the beuty of the game. Unthinable acts by modern standard like genocide and torture are merely tools for survival for a man living in those darkest of times.

This game is a back drop for a stroy of human will defying intellect and raw strneghth

Actually in the origional Rifts in 1990 most monsters had a vulnerability to a common substance, which meant that the average human with a sharpened stick could hit and kill an MDC monster who had a vulnerability to wood. I miss that Chart.

[Dog_O_War]

Take (for instance) the Grackletooth. Superior (statistically) in almost every way. Can they be Juicers? No. I call that a disadvantage. Can they be Glitterboy pilots? No. I call that a disadvantage. Can they be juiced Glitterboy pilots? No. Again, another disadvantage.

A Grackletooth would rip a juicer or Glitterboy pilot to shreds. This about race. Grackletooth can pilot power armor just like wolfen can. If it can be built for wolfen, grackleteeth aren't that much bigger. Once equipment (which as stated can be used by both sides) is removed, the humans literally can not hurt a Grackletooth. It'd take a Titan juicer, Mega-Juicer or Dragonjuicer to do so. And a Grackletooth would kill the titan juicer with one blow.

Hardly. They do wear armour after all, and they have far superior combat bonuses - to the point that the Grackletooth is hard-pressed to do anything but surrender or die.
As well, you'll also be hard-pressed to find a Grackletooth that can actually pilot powered armour, let alone afford/have a suit of PA that fits him.

Meanwhile every third human (apparently) in the book of Arzno has a suit stashed in their closet or shed. The advantage is human; it takes the the shear grace of the GM to allow a Glitterboy-Grackletooth pilot with a suit of Glitterboy Armour that fits him. And if we were banking on miracles here, I'd just play a Human-Juicer Glitterboy pilot with a custom Glitterboy exoskeleton that his Glitterboy fits inside - because that is just as likely to happen

They are extremely limited in their choice of equipment, and more often than not a human can become physically equal to the supposedly superior races - like the Mega-Juicer, for example.

At the cost of your life.

The same is said of any game that takes place in the Dominion of Man, Germany, or Japan - only for Dee-Bees.

[csbioborg]

you know a large portion of this game is makinds stuggle against the magically endowed dbee.

Sure a human is not able to hurt a dbee with his bare hands (unless he has martial arts powers or the like). That is the selling point of rifts. The demons and dbees have taken over your world. You as a member of the Coalition forces are doing your best against implacable odds and often times winning.

Its humanity's phiscal weakness that spurs it to innovate in the face of the4 dbee menace.

Basically your espusing the same arugement I have used to justify the CS Campaign of Unity.

Your the guy that knows if there ever is equlity the dbbees are going to take over. They are smarter stronger in every way. Does that give them the right to take over your world or is it more reason to kill every last one of them while yelling go back from were you camwe from this is humanity's world.

That is the beuty of the game. Unthinable acts by modern standard like genocide and torture are merely tools for survival for a man living in those darkest of times.

This game is a back drop for a stroy of human will defying intellect and raw strneghth

Actually in the origional Rifts in 1990 most monsters had a vulnerability to a common substance, which meant that the average human with a sharpened stick could hit and kill an MDC monster who had a vulnerability to wood. I miss that Chart.

so do i

Eric Wujack was trying yo bring back the concept with China and the demons vunerabiity to bone or at least one other mundane object.

[dark brandon]

This is about races, then it's about race. Tech can be borrowed, stolen or reproduced...
A Grackletooth would rip a juicer or Glitterboy pilot to shreds. This about race. Grackletooth can pilot power armor just like wolfen can. If it can be built for wolfen, grackleteeth aren't that much bigger. Once equipment (which as stated can be used by both sides) is removed, the humans literally can not hurt a Grackletooth. It'd take a Titan juicer, Mega-Juicer or Dragonjuicer to do so. And a Grackletooth would kill the titan juicer with one blow.

A big point of what you're missing is the diversity. A grackletooth is just a toy to a mind melter (Human). A grackletooth doesn't have the option of psionic or magic class, both availible to humans and not a grackle. Tech can be stolen or borrowed and, in a world where humans are in a world filled with Grackles, then yes, they'd be at a much more disadvantage, but in RIFTs, where humans are generally the status quo, they have the advantage of tech made for human size, racial acceptance. It costs extra to get things made "big". And this is just combat aptitude. Social things need to be concidered as well. That is just as important for a species to propagate as much as surviving combat.

[dark brandon]

Now this one, I admit is a problem, but bear in mind, grackleteeth have average ME, and psionics aren't THAT hard to save against, and heaven help you if your close when he breaks free. And humans are just as vulnerable to psi and magic.

Not that hard? A 14 or higher for an average grackletooth. That means that 65% of all grackletooths will fail any psionic attack. A physical attack by a grackletooth has an average of 10 + any bonuses, and parrying/dodging can be had via skills making a strike harder to get off as well as other defensible combat options available. Both are vulnerable to magic, but a human can be a mage to help counter magic, a grackletooth does not have that option, and a human psionic helps them increase their saves vs. psionic up to almost negligible ends.

To go by the earlier standard, reading the books, no they aren't the status quo anymore. Not unless your in the Coalition States. And lets see a human infiltrate Atlantis.

It would be easier for a human mage or psionic to infiltrate Atlantis than it would be for a grackletooth. Simply put, human mages and psionics can reach frighteningly high levels of power. As per the books, most nations around the world have human friendly nations. Note, that the of the top 4 or so most powerful nations on earth, 3 are human. Atlantis, NGR, Geo-front and CS. Beyond that, most continents have some sort of human based nation and humans can pretty much be found all around the world. There are some places where being a human is at a disadvantage, but the number of places where it's advantageous to be human far outnumbers the number of places where it's detrimental.

[dark brandon]

But most humans aren't. Let's try this another way. Take 1,000 Grackleteeth against 1,000 humans using the standard breakdowns in OCCs and percentages of people possessing OCCs (humans less then 10% other then vagabond). Where in one of the older books on rifts, it mentions that less the 1 out of every 30 people possess MDC capable weapons and armor. Who wins that fight? Humans possess a single strength that grackleteeth do not, but this is countered by higher stats, supernatural strength, and an MDC hide. Sorry, humans come out on the short end of the stick here.

Listen, I've already said it; I understand where you’re coming from. I accept your logic (even if I disagree with it). Heck, despite what I'm saying here, I don't actually dislike playing humans. I was responding to a comment where someone said humans where the center of the power scale, they are not. If you like playing low powered, go for it. Heck I've played (and enjoyed) low powered, and I've insisted my players make low powered characters before, see my comments in the "How you control a Munchkin" thread. But to try and tell me that either Grackleteeth or Brodkil are WEAKER then humans because of ONE ability they don't get, that is just absurd.

who said weaker? It's not that I disagree with your logic, on a very simple scale your right. Who has the bigger fist...grackletooth. WHo has the tougher skin...grackletooth. A grackletooth has no diversity. In your first reply you said "most", but the answer is "not all". And it's not one single strength, it's three strengths. 1) Magic 2) psionics 3) scholarly OCC's not available to GTs.

Take 1,000 Grackleteeth against 1,000 humans using the standard breakdowns in OCCs and percentages of people possessing OCCs (humans less then 10% other then vagabond). Where in one of the older books on rifts, it mentions that less the 1 out of every 30 people possess MDC capable weapons and armor. Who wins that fight?

Lets change it.

Take 1,000 Grackleteeth against 1,000 humans using the standard breakdowns in OCCs and percentages of people possessing OCCs (humans less then 10% other then vagabond). Where in one of the older books on rifts, it mentions that less the 1 out of every 30 people possess MDC capable weapons and armor. Who wins that economic expansion?

I'm gonna go with humans on that one.

Who is gonna read more books?

I'm saying...humans

Who will have more information on demons?

Once again...i'm gonna go with humans. (Yey rogue scholar)

You're not taking setting into account, and when you do you negate any argument in your head with "authors are going out of their way to come up with the most convoluted, illogical and unreasonable plans and ambitions of their enemies". I don't know if the Yama Kings can be considered a "nation" as each seems to work independently of each other, or in many ways undermine each other, but even if they are there is still a very powerful human refuged even in the pits of hell (china). Nearly every continent has some human force.

You're also simply taking combat as your "base" point. This is a poor way to say if they are "weaker" or not. If combat is your goal, your only means by which you judge something "strong" or not, then you'd be right.

Here's how I see a race being "More/less" powerful than another race. If playing in low powered campaign can you have an effective group with a GT and human, in which both contribute equally in some manor. Yes. The grackletooth is going to be a combat dog...but that's about it, that's what's limited by his OOC selection. A human can fill many gaps. Can you play a high powered campaign with both? At a point, I don't think a GT will bring as much to the table. A human can still rely on magic and psionics to get him through.

Humans are more "baseline". You won't find many (if anything) weaker than a human. On the other hand, most other races are built for "specific" power play. Most are stuck in their nitch. Some races are just powerful, and can only be played in power games. Others are more medium power. But humans are one of the races that can be played at any level of power.

[NMI]

Play Nice People!

[Dog_O_War]

Why? Why not surrender in the face of a superior foe? Once again, people are forgetting that they're free-willed and can make up their own minds.

To a Juicer, no foe is superior - and in this case I'm likely to believe him.

Again, why? Large races ware armor, including power armor, they can be any man-at -arms OCC (except those that receive augmentation). Why wouldn't someplace like Lalzo, or Tolkien, or Kingsdale fit some armor for them? They do it for other large races.

Well, Tolkeen is gone (for one), for two I was unaware that the various adventuring Grackletooths were all allies of magicians and magic-users, rich enough to have a suit of PA converted to big+tail, and knew how to pilot PA as well.
For three, if they are doing this, then you would need to address Titan Juicers in giant PA. Or monstrous cyborgs in PA.

Meanwhile every third human (apparently) in the book of Arzno has a suit stashed in their closet or shed.

Really! Every 3rd human can afford power armor. So, the Grackletooth waits until they're in bed, steals their money and their armor, sells the armor to another human, goes and buys his own.

So all Grackletooths are all theives now?
They all stalk menacingly in coalition territory, and aren't really afraid of the vampires?
My point is that humans (and not the Grackletooth) canonically have and are likely to have PA, where as a Grackletooth won't. Exceptions do exist, but they are no the majority nor the focus.

Now this one, I admit is a problem, but bear in mind, grackleteeth have average ME, and psionics aren't THAT hard to save against, and heaven help you if your close when he breaks free. And humans are just as vulnerable to psi and magic.

you fail 65% of the time, which means on average you lose - how isn't that hard?
As well, "just as vunerable" is relative. Sure, a Grackletooth farmer and a human farmer are "just as vunerable", but compared to the adventuring types - Grackletooths versus all the human mages, juicers, cyborgs, and psychics and all of a sudden they are no longer equal in this respect.

Not that hard? A 14 or higher for an average grackletooth. That means that 65% of all grackletooths will fail any psionic attack.

And your point is? Most humans will fail this as well.

The point being that humans (specifically adventurers - the kind that matter here in this discussion) are definitely not as likely. As I had mentioned, where the Grackletooth is limited in options, the human has several OCCs that are both common to adventuring groups and most are given a better chance to save versus this stuff. That sure seems like an advantage to me.

A physical attack by a grackletooth has an average of 10 + any bonuses, and parrying/dodging can be had via skills making a strike harder to get off as well as other defensible combat options available.

And it's a poorly made/GMed Grackletooth that hasn't done likewise (assuming I'm correct in what you where trying to say here).

There is something you're missing. This is a supposedly "weak" human that is a fighting equal to the Grackletooth. This is a regular old merc. with average stats that is statistically likely to parry everything the Grackletooth sends at him.

Both are vulnerable to magic, but a human can be a mage to help counter magic, a grackletooth does not have that option, and a human psionic helps them increase their saves vs. psionic up to almost negligible ends.

But most humans aren't. Let's try this another way. Take 1,000 Grackleteeth against 1,000 humans using the standard breakdowns in OCCs and percentages of people possessing OCCs (humans less then 10% other then vagabond). Where in one of the older books on rifts, it mentions that less the 1 out of every 30 people possess MDC capable weapons and armor. Who wins that fight? Humans possess a single strength that grackleteeth do not, but this is countered by higher stats, supernatural strength, and an MDC hide. Sorry, humans come out on the short end of the stick here.

Your example is dispreportionate with the population at large. Why don't we (instead) take 1,000,000 humans and 1,000 Grackletooths for a sample that is more in-line with the reality of Rifts.
At 10% you'll get more mages per square mile than you will Grackletooths. By a factor of 10. At a ratio of 1:30 for humans that possess MD weapons, that's nearly 34,000 people per 1,000 Grackletooths.

As per the books, most nations around the world have human friendly nations. Note, that the of the top 4 or so most powerful nations on earth, 3 are human. Atlantis, NGR, Geo-front and CS. Beyond that, most continents have some sort of human based nation and humans can pretty much be found all around the world.

The Geo-Front is not one of the top 4 in power. I have those books, I'd rate them around the same power as the Russian Warlords. The Yama Kings are second only to Atlantis, try being a human there. And as for the CS and Triax, the only reason they even remain around is because the authors are going out of their way to come up with the most convoluted, illogical and unreasonable plans and ambitions of their enemies.

How's about a man and his AI-buddy are nearly single-handly holding the Spugorth at bay with some robots.
How's about those powers (like Atlantis) fear a united human front, because Atlantis going to Germany or NA is bad for all parties involved, and where one side keeps slaves (Atlantis) of all races, where the other doesn't (non-humans only - and even then it's rare) you'll see few people rushing to the aid of Atlantis, and humanity banning together.
The thing of it is that the amount of people who would fight the powers of Atlantis before they would fight humanity out-numbers the inverse.

Listen, I've already said it; I understand where you’re coming from. I accept your logic (even if I disagree with it). Heck, despite what I'm saying here, I don't actually dislike playing humans. I was responding to a comment where someone said humans where the center of the power scale, they are not. If you like playing low powered, go for it. Heck I've played (and enjoyed) low powered, and I've insisted my players make low powered characters before, see my comments in the "How you control a Munchkin" thread. But to try and tell me that either Grackleteeth or Brodkil are WEAKER then humans because of ONE ability they don't get, that is just absurd.

So Brodkil are more powerful than Glitterboys?
More powerful than Mega-Juicers?
More powerful than a Phaeton Juicer in a suit of flying PA?
More powerful than a full-coversion borg?
More powerful than the various mages that summon and control demons, just like the Brodkil?

It's not absurd, it's a fact of the game.
We know and understand that these various alien/demon races are often more physically or mentally superior, but the fact of the matter is that there are numerous possibilities within a gaming group that not only puts humans on par with them, but sees that they retain the advantage of being human - socially, and that you can find humans on-par both physically and mentally with these other races, but rarely will you get aliens on-par with humans - socially.

[demos606]

So Brodkil are more powerful than Glitterboys?
More powerful than the human pilot outside the suit or the empty suit? Unquestionably. It's not until yoyu start combining humans and technology or magic that they have any chance against demons.

More powerful than Mega-Juicers?
More powerful than a Phaeton Juicer in a suit of flying PA?
Technically, these are not human as they've been juiced to superhuman levels.

More powerful than a full-coversion borg?
Please tell me you didn't try to lump robots in with humans for comparison.

More powerful than the various mages that summon and control demons, just like the Brodkil?

Same category as a GB Pilot. Brodkil catches them with their magical reserves exhausted, it's a dead mage whether they have the knowedge to control demons or not.

Simple fact is, without their accessories humans are just so much fertilizer. Too many other races don't need, or aren't vulnerable to, human technology to completely outclass them physically. That said, humans do have a greater potential for power gain than most other playable races because they aren't limited by what they are.

[Dog_O_War]

So Brodkil are more powerful than Glitterboys?

More powerful than the human pilot outside the suit or the empty suit? Unquestionably. It's not until yoyu start combining humans and technology or magic that they have any chance against demons.

Quite right, but see below.

More powerful than Mega-Juicers?
More powerful than a Phaeton Juicer in a suit of flying PA?

Technically, these are not human as they've been juiced to superhuman levels.

Technically they are still human as their DNA has not changed. At all. So, technically you are 100% wrong, and technically I was 100% right when I said this, because technically I read the book before I posted this part.
Technically speaking.

More powerful than a full-coversion borg?

Please tell me you didn't try to lump robots in with humans for comparison.

I did - but I never realized! I am so wrong with all of these things I've said! Darn, I am a fool
And incase you didn't know, that was sarcasm.
Technology is the domain and advantage of man. The Glitterboy suit, the SAMAS, all the CS, NG, and NGR toys - creations of man. The Crazy process, the juicer process - both man-made constructs. Full conversion 'borgs are offered by numerous human nations all over the globe. This is the advantage of man-kind; these mods. are most often applied to humans, and often only work on humans because they are the human advantage.

A Glitterboy is counted as pilot+PA, not just the pilot. The class is equipment-centric, so the advantage lies with the equipment. Then there are the Juicers - they are 95% human, and it is a human advantage to become one. Then the borg - on average they are human.
This is the human advantage - versitility, technology, equipment. Some other races may perport "superior" technology, but it comes down to cost, numbers, and efficiency. 9/10 times that ends up being the human advantage.

More powerful than the various mages that summon and control demons, just like the Brodkil?

Same category as a GB Pilot. Brodkil catches them with their magical reserves exhausted, it's a dead mage whether they have the knowedge to control demons or not.

If a mage catches a Brodkil right after bionics surgery, and he's got full PPE and super equipment and a mercenary team, and a dragon familiar, and a letter from Dunscon himself saying what a bad-ass human mage he is, it's one enthralled and intimidated Brodkil demon
What I mean by that is your ifbut scenario has little to do with what's likely.

Simple fact is, without their accessories humans are just so much fertilizer.

The simple fact is that humans come with accessories. The simple fact is that in any one-sided scenario, anyone is fertilizer regardless of race. The simple fact is that more often than not, humans are found in human territory with accessories, while Dee-Bees rarely find humans without accessories in their territories.

Too many other races don't need, or aren't vulnerable to, human technology to completely outclass them physically. That said, humans do have a greater potential for power gain than most other playable races because they aren't limited by what they are.

One might say that this has been the majority of points in regards as to why play a human?

[dark brandon]

Same category as a GB Pilot. Brodkil catches them with their magical reserves exhausted, it's a dead mage whether they have the knowedge to control demons or not.

If's and when's. But not constants. Any creature that is caught by surprise and with certain reserves exhausted is going to be toast. MDC is as much a reserve as Magical energies...and having knowledge to control demons also means knowledge on how to fight/hold at bay/chase any demon away.

Simple fact is, without their accessories humans are just so much fertilizer. Too many other races don't need, or aren't vulnerable to, human technology to completely outclass them physically. That said, humans do have a greater potential for power gain than most other playable races because they aren't limited by what they are.

Note, placing certain circumstances on a creature isn't a fair comparison with other creatures. physically, a single human may be fertilizer, then again, there are just as many "natural" abilites that are as much a part of them. Psionics for instance. From BTS: while not every human has the potential for psychic powers, psionic powers exist in humans for such cases as battling the SN. Humans have diversity. Not all humans are psionic because not all humans need to be psionic. Their skills and powers range from being very focused (Autistic savant) to being very broad (Vagabond). I believe mystics fall in this catagory as well, though i'm unsure if a mystic is trained or "called"

[csbioborg]

Marine on Marine debate what would Dan Daley say

[Misfit KotLD]

Marine on Marine debate what would Dan Daley say

Do you sons of ***** want to live forever!?

[dark brandon]

Hello,

I apologize for seeming to ignore this thread, however Mr Deific felt that my (admittedly overreaction) reply to dark brandon's intentional misquote of my last post was a not acceptable. As that post had not only my rather angry retort at said intentional misquote, but my response to every other part of his post, I feel I'd best leave you to it.

.....

Lord knows, quoting me and altering what I said in the quote offended me. Which is why I got my message deleted.

Just to clarity, I made it known I was gonna change your quote in order to prove a point, not to **** you off. There are certain circumstances in which a human IS going to be stronger than a grackletooth. I meant no offense which is why I stated "Lets change it", to give forewarning.

[Killer Cyborg]

Goblins and Kobolds come to mind.

Goblins gain 23 dice for stats (1 shy of humans) but gain a flat +6 to PP. They gain nightvision and tunneling. Kobolds get 22 dice (2 shy of humans) and a flat +9 in bonus stats. They gain nightvision plus tunneling and the dwarven metal working skill.

You said "weaker."
If you wanted to count up stat dice, you should have asked for that.

But the main reason to play a human is simply because they're cool, not because of their stats.
If high stats is all you're interested in, I wouldn't bother running a game for you in the first place.

I see, so if someone disagrees with you, they aren't allowed to play?

If all somebody is interested in is power over character, then they're not allowed to play with me.
Because I have no use for somebody more interested in stats than in character.

People can and do disagree with me on any number of things, but if the only use they see in a character is high stats and powers then they're not a role-player as far as I'm concerned.

There is more to power levels then stats. And if you’re running a game that allows any race in the books, without limit, and you expect all your players to take weak races, then your game deserves to be ruined by munchkins.

That part doesn't even make sense.
My game deserves to be ruined by munchkins because I don't like to let munchkins play in my games?


But I agree that there is more to power level than just stats, which is why it's silly to claim that a race is just as powerful as humans are just because they have the same number of dice for stats.

[Severite]

Course, there is also the fact that a number of people dont have the roleplaying ability/maturity to play something exotic.............

[Dog_O_War]

Course, there is also the fact that a number of people dont have the roleplaying ability/maturity to play something exotic.............

That doesn't mean that they should default to human though

[Library Ogre]

Course, there is also the fact that a number of people dont have the roleplaying ability/maturity to play something exotic.............

An unfortunate proportion of these lack the roleplaying ability and maturity to convincingly play a human, though.

[Killer Cyborg]

Course, there is also the fact that a number of people dont have the roleplaying ability/maturity to play something exotic.............

That doesn't mean that they should default to human though

Well, if they don't have the maturity/ability to play something exotic, then they're best off playing their own actual race, which tends to be human.

[Severite]

Course, there is also the fact that a number of people dont have the roleplaying ability/maturity to play something exotic.............

An unfortunate proportion of these lack the roleplaying ability and maturity to convincingly play a human, though.

I agree, though it is easier to learn something you have some experience with then something completely out of your range.......you may not have the skill, but it doesn't mean it cannot be gained.

[csbioborg]

why play a human?

What other race let's you use lines like these in rifts

Cyberknight to CS Officer
What right do you have to kill this dbee village

CS reply If you truly understood you'd know I have no right to let them live

Those that harbor the dbee share in his crime of existence

Its great to play a human in rifts. What are you going to play? Some mage ponticating over the nature of magic bowing to his alien god
A dragon hatchling that can teleport away or just stand there and with stand a tank round and laugh

or a stub nosed CS soldier. The chips are down he's out manned out gunned. His enemy stronger faster smarter than he can ever hope to be. They hit him hard at Tolkien they ally themselves with the xenos and the daemoic forces of the rifts. But every time they hit him he comes back. Brodkil rips off his arm he uses the other to stuff a grenade down his throat. Ten weeks of sugery and he's rebuilt ready to scrouge the enemy. Nothing put human convicstion and belief in his chain of command keeps him going. Faith is his armor ignorance his shield
That's roleplaying.

[Rahmota]

Why not? I am sorry but most of the other species in Rifts and even fantasy and other games are just reduced to one angle stereotypes or one facet of a personality archetype and thats it. Too stifling and limited. Like all Demons are evil, all elves are passionate, all dwarves are curmudgeonly wealth hoarders, All vulcans are calm emotionless logicians, all Klingons are honor bound warriors, etc.... Limiting oneself like that is not as much fun. And if you do roleplay properly the society or cultures acting against those archetypes would give your character some serious RP problems. An emotional Vulcan would be outcast, what kind of reaction do you think a Klingon florist would get?

Humans are broad, infinite in their capacity to change and develop. Personalities among humans are as diverse and mutable, ranging from the gross to the subtle. I mean I think Shakespeare said it best:

What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals

I think 98% of all my characters are human and there are times when I have been forced to play a non-human but my heart just isnt in it. My best friend is just the opposite he says that since he is a human every day why play one. I am not just playing a human, any ol joe plumber dude. I am playing a human mercenary riding around in a hover tank or a starship or doing a million and one thigns that I could never do in my real world life of get up work spend time with the family go to bed, rinse repeat life. Why try and tack onto the grand adventure that is life be it real or game, some silly costume. I am human so I know how to be that and can extrapolate out what being human in a post apocalyptic or far future sci fi, or fantasy environment would be like.

So at the end of the day while some people may say they can have more fun playing a creature that can take a tank round to the chest and laugh it off I'd rather enjoy someone who has to think. Outwit, outplay, outlast as the show says. Being a walkign juggernaught can be rather boring in the end.

So why play a human. For the length and breadth and infinite possibilities that it brings. Humans are the most complex, most divirse, divisive, intriguing, adjective filled species the universe has ever created. You can do or be anything and still be human. Augmentation or powers, or a silly accent or some crazy clothes will not change that you are human. The ROLE playing opportunities are awesome as a human. Tying to maintain that connection even if one does get changed or turned into something else. Remember Robocop and his struggle to find his human identity? Blade runner with the whole question of is more human than human a good thing? I am not a stereotype or one dimensional so why would I want to play one in a game?

[Rahmota]

Halios: This is true. I agree that a living thriving culture in social comparison is going to have a broad spectrum of personalities, careers, and archetypes. Unfortunately too often in RPGs (and books and movies) all we get to see are the one dimensional stereotypes.

No you dont have to be a human to enjoy or even to play Rifts or any other RPG by Palladium or many other companies (there are a few that are pure human games though) and I'm sorry if I implied otherwise. I was waxing enthusiastically about how unlimited humans are presented, (and by extension in reality too) in the game and other species are not.

As for my friend and I we have worked out a useful enough arrangement where if I "force" him to play a human, near human, human analogue or otherwise something that isnt furry then the next one ofhis games I'll play something not quite human. Part of the overall give and take involved in any situation of diplomacy.

[Lenwen]

If you just look at stats, humans look unappealing compared to many other potential races to play in Rifts. To help GMs explain why its great to play a human in Rifts, let's put together a quick set of ideas to promote humanity!

Here's the rules for the thread. First, list three reasons why humans are excellent choices for player characters. Then, debate as you like. Here's my three:

1) Most everybody on Earth is human. Being human makes it easier to blend into the society and make contacts with other humans.

2) Stuff is built human size. Everything from vehicles to doorways to beds to chairs are almost always built for the human body, bone structure and weight.

3) Body language is species specific. Humans move their faces and bodies differently than some creature built by other biological standards. Since most of face to face communication is non-verbal, most non-humans will come off pretty creepy and quite often misunderstood even when using the right words.

To Crush your enemies ...

And to hear the lamentation of thier women ...

So sayeth CONAN !!!

[Shadyslug]

B/c no other race fights with as much heart.

Where do you get this?

[Dog_O_War]

B/c no other race fights with as much heart.

Where do you get this?

It's an internal feature. Comes pre-packaged and installed, though replacements are available - best to check the valves after every 10 years.