Found Something I don't like in DR

[Preacher]

Finally had a little time to read DR a little more and kind of wished I had skipped the Weapons section.


OK, I know my like of firearms slants my view but the Weapons and Equipment section is just silly.
From the book, Pg 110 under assault rifles.
"I have not found any good reason to use an assault rifle except against the living.While they can throw a bunch of lead, generally they just punch holes in the necrotic flesh rather than slowing the Zombie down." OMFG!!! I guess somehow in the DR universe there is no damaging shock wave when a bullet passes through. Just pokes a hole and moves on.

Man whoever wrote that needs to do a little research. BADLY!!! Go do a few ballistics gel searches online and see what a Assault round does when it "Punches Holes" in flesh.

The machine gun section where they say "This is the real world" and then put in some completely inaccurate comparisons which are 100% false to prove their point are too hard for me to swallow.

Rifles, Assault Guns and Machine gun section needs a complete rewrite. I understand why they are trying to make Shotguns the Holy Grail of Zombie Fighting but come on.

OK, Rant over.

Any Other Gun Junkies that pick up this book then you will have to amend the Weapons section. Specially if you ever served in the military in any Infantry type role or even Police officers or SWAT members.

So far that is my only gripe.

[Tricky]

This is something that my brother, who is not a big zombie fan, has been saying for years:

"Yeah, they are dead, but they still need a skeleton and tissue to stand up! Hit them with a couple hits from an AK, AR-15 or similar weapon and you're still going to tear them to shreds!"

One must remember, for most people, the damage done by firearms to human bodies is only simulated by Hollywood and Silicon Valley, not real life. Watch almost any war or cop movie: some guy will get hit by a high calliber round, and somehow still be able not only kill the bad guy, but be fixed with just a bandage!

This is in sharp contrast to stories I've heard of guys "missing their backs" after a firefight.

[DtMK]

I didn't write it

We know. Shhhh. It's okay.

[Sureshot]

I have to agree with Preacher it does sound kind of silly. While shotguns have been a staple of the zombie genre for many years it makes no sense to ignore or come up with imo a very unbelivcalbe reason to no use them in DR.

[Ninjafingers]

Finally had a little time to read DR a little more and kind of wished I had skipped the Weapons section.


OK, I know my like of firearms slants my view but the Weapons and Equipment section is just silly.
From the book, Pg 110 under assault rifles.
"I have not found any good reason to use an assault rifle except against the living.While they can throw a bunch of lead, generally they just punch holes in the necrotic flesh rather than slowing the Zombie down." OMFG!!! I guess somehow in the DR universe there is no damaging shock wave when a bullet passes through. Just pokes a hole and moves on.

Man whoever wrote that needs to do a little research. BADLY!!! Go do a few ballistics gel searches online and see what a Assault round does when it "Punches Holes" in flesh.

The machine gun section where they say "This is the real world" and then put in some completely inaccurate comparisons which are 100% false to prove their point are too hard for me to swallow.

Rifles, Assault Guns and Machine gun section needs a complete rewrite. I understand why they are trying to make Shotguns the Holy Grail of Zombie Fighting but come on.

OK, Rant over.

Any Other Gun Junkies that pick up this book then you will have to amend the Weapons section. Specially if you ever served in the military in any Infantry type role or even Police officers or SWAT members.

So far that is my only gripe.

You should have continued with the paragraph. "They lack the accuracy needed to pick off zombies at range and wild firing is likely to hit a comrade or innocent person." Seriously, talk to some Marines or soldiers once in a while.

And why can't a burst be used with a called shot. I've seen plenty of three-round bursts in a tight group. We do use the sights; we're not firing from the hip.

[csbioborg]

I have low expectations when it comes to RPG writers knowing much about combat but that is a little over the top. I understand most people haven't been in the military but you could easily call your local police station or Reserve unit to get help on research.

[Pepsi Jedi]

While you're not 'wrong' in your assumption of anger at the quoted text above, you're not 100% correct either.

Yes, much of the damage of a bullet when it hits a human being is the shockwave transmitted though the body. The actual bullet going though does damage of itself but the force being transfered to the body does alot as well.

That's because a living body has fluids and active organs that can be affected by the forces you're discribing. An 'undead" body would not.

It's the difference between shooting a live pig, and shooting a dead pig drained of blood and hanging on a hook. You get much different results. And in fact.. yes shooting the dead pig will just result in holes being punched though it and with out the 'trauma' of the bullet being muchmore than the matter the bullet displaces.

Such things as 'The butterfly effect" Where a living person is hit so hard by a bullet or a car or something that the shockwave liquifies their inturnal organs (( Able to be seen on an Xray looking like a mottled butterfly instead of distinguishable organs)) Would not occur on the undead where the liquids are not present or are transmutated into something other than blood and soft organ tissue.

Most 'zombies' are dead. And there in their blood and stuff starts changing right away. Either to Zombie "goo" Which has been represented many times in film or at least rotting coagulating stagnant blood, which does not carry the same physical characteristic of human blood. So the forces acting on it wouldn't be the same as on a living breathing person. The organs will have liquified, and congealed or shriveled and dried out (( depending on your type of zombification)) ect.

So... as much as I might not like the thought of "Automatic weapons won't work on undead" as a concept, the use of guns on undead is different than the living. Shoot a shoulder of venison, that's been cut and cured or at least hung and drained and then shoot a living deer. See the difference there. (( well. Actually don't. it'd be pretty grizzly to take this to live testing for a zombie game, but you get the point))

In short bullets do not effect non living, or previously living flesh the same as living. Yes you can blow holes in them. Yes you can blow parts off, but it won't induce trama or shock in the already dead critter.


As for the "blowing parts off/how is the zombie still moving" Well that goes into the willing suspension of disbelief that comes along with Zombies. They don't really use all of their bodies. Just the parts around the joints. They're not using blood to flow to the muscles to make the muscles work to move the limbs and using food to fuel the body to make the blood flow to the muscles or organs to do... most anything. It's just that Zombie thing. They get up and move because of some unknown and unexplainable force. Blowing off an arm means the zombie attacks you with the other arm. Blow off both legs and he crawls at you. Zombies don't need nor use their inturnal organs for anything so shooting them in the main body is just blowing holes into dead flesh.

Heh Read WWZ and the chapter about the air fueld bomb and the zombies that had their lungs ripped up their throats and were hanging out of their mouths flapping all dry and ratty in the wind.

[Nightbreed]

I didn't write it

We know. Shhhh. It's okay.

Let the evidence show that Citizen Lazlo is clear of any and all accusations as to whether he wrote any such knowledge whether it was wrong in accuracy or otherwise.

[Shotgun Jolly]

Heh Read WWZ and the chapter about the air fueld bomb and the zombies that had their lungs ripped up their throats and were hanging out of their mouths flapping all dry and ratty in the wind.

Yeah.. It actully explaines a good portion of it in that chapter on how the modern weapons didnt really work and why..

And if Zombies are(were) real, it would all make sense.

I cant recall the name if that battle.. but they got their butts kicked.. and bad!

[Roscoe Del'Tane]

Yonkers!
Saddest part about that, is that I could see how something like that could happen. (Not saying that it would mind you, just saying that it's possible it could.) As it said in the book, you perfect the art of fighting the last war just in time to fight the next one. Standard anti-human techniques and weapons, while not completely useles, would most likely be severely curtailed, or made so expensive per kill to be completely impractical (no point in dropping expensive bombs on the S.O.B.'s if it ain't gonna do a d@mn bit of good). The tanks were a perfect example of that, only three usable shells out of a payload of 50 shells, real brilliant there, and not using the terrain to your best advantage, not securing the houses behind friendly lines, and all of that digging 'fighitng holes' in the parking lot (even for the TANKS, that was an almost criminal waste IMO, considering what they were going up against).



...Keep in mind I have NO military experience, and mean no insult to our fine soldiers or those leading them. But since we're talking about bodies trying to eat the living, a little bit of debate is going to be inevitable.

[Spinachcat]

The concept of "research" is hugely overrated. How things may or may not work in the real world is meaningless for fiction. Every fictional world has their own physics and the only important goal is for that fiction to be supported internally.

If you think weapon stats are silly, look at healing rules in any RPG. They are laughable from a "realism" standpoint, but from a game perspective, the idea is to get back quickly into adventures.

Plus, you can never please gamers with gun fetishes. Every RPG that tries to cater to them fails. Heck, even the computer game companies who can model ballistics throw most of the minutae out the window in the name of gameplay.

[dark brandon]

Finally had a little time to read DR a little more and kind of wished I had skipped the Weapons section.


OK, I know my like of firearms slants my view but the Weapons and Equipment section is just silly.
From the book, Pg 110 under assault rifles.
"I have not found any good reason to use an assault rifle except against the living.While they can throw a bunch of lead, generally they just punch holes in the necrotic flesh rather than slowing the Zombie down." OMFG!!! I guess somehow in the DR universe there is no damaging shock wave when a bullet passes through. Just pokes a hole and moves on.

Man whoever wrote that needs to do a little research. BADLY!!! Go do a few ballistics gel searches online and see what a Assault round does when it "Punches Holes" in flesh.

The machine gun section where they say "This is the real world" and then put in some completely inaccurate comparisons which are 100% false to prove their point are too hard for me to swallow.

Rifles, Assault Guns and Machine gun section needs a complete rewrite. I understand why they are trying to make Shotguns the Holy Grail of Zombie Fighting but come on.

OK, Rant over.

Any Other Gun Junkies that pick up this book then you will have to amend the Weapons section. Specially if you ever served in the military in any Infantry type role or even Police officers or SWAT members.

So far that is my only gripe.

Rather than say "go research", just tell us how it SHOULD work. What would you change, game/mechanics wise. I'm curious.

[The Galactus Kid]

Finally had a little time to read DR a little more and kind of wished I had skipped the Weapons section.


OK, I know my like of firearms slants my view but the Weapons and Equipment section is just silly.
From the book, Pg 110 under assault rifles.
"I have not found any good reason to use an assault rifle except against the living.While they can throw a bunch of lead, generally they just punch holes in the necrotic flesh rather than slowing the Zombie down." OMFG!!! I guess somehow in the DR universe there is no damaging shock wave when a bullet passes through. Just pokes a hole and moves on.

Man whoever wrote that needs to do a little research. BADLY!!! Go do a few ballistics gel searches online and see what a Assault round does when it "Punches Holes" in flesh.

The machine gun section where they say "This is the real world" and then put in some completely inaccurate comparisons which are 100% false to prove their point are too hard for me to swallow.

Rifles, Assault Guns and Machine gun section needs a complete rewrite. I understand why they are trying to make Shotguns the Holy Grail of Zombie Fighting but come on.

OK, Rant over.

Any Other Gun Junkies that pick up this book then you will have to amend the Weapons section. Specially if you ever served in the military in any Infantry type role or even Police officers or SWAT members.

So far that is my only gripe.

Rather than say "go research", just tell us how it SHOULD work. What would you change, game/mechanics wise. I'm curious.

Good question. I'd like to know too.

[Rockwolf66]

Having seen first hand the aftermath of a bullet going through the side of a jeep and into a person's knee... Alot of damage.

Basically any modern centerfire round is going to make any bone it hit's into powder. I have a friend who lost about an inch of collarbone due to the hit of a .22 long rifle round. 5.56X45mm fragments on any semi-solid substance and those fragments will destroy the tensile strengh of any remaining tissue and it packs alot more punch than a .22LR.

7.62X39mm, and most hunting rifles will totally destroy any bone it impacts with. Automatic weapons are good for one thing and that is tearing up large boddies of troops or in this case zombies. I personally do not know of anything that will keep walking after the bones in the hips are destroyed and can no longer support weight. Thus with one "spray" of a machinegun in grazing fire the first 1D4 rows of Zombies are crawling insted of walking after you.

[Shotgun Jolly]

Thus with one "spray" of a machinegun in grazing fire the first 1D4 rows of Zombies are crawling insted of walking after you.

I can just imagine how it would look too.. a few long bursts and rows of Zombies go down.. only to keep on moving towards you!

Sure, you maybe able to break bones, blow off limbs, but unless you take out the brain, they will keep coming. Sure.. even if you behead a few.. get to close to the rolling head, and they just might be able to bite you!..

Zombies just plain rock!

SGJ

[Preacher]

Finally had a little time to read DR a little more and kind of wished I had skipped the Weapons section.


OK, I know my like of firearms slants my view but the Weapons and Equipment section is just silly.
From the book, Pg 110 under assault rifles.
"I have not found any good reason to use an assault rifle except against the living.While they can throw a bunch of lead, generally they just punch holes in the necrotic flesh rather than slowing the Zombie down." OMFG!!! I guess somehow in the DR universe there is no damaging shock wave when a bullet passes through. Just pokes a hole and moves on.

Man whoever wrote that needs to do a little research. BADLY!!! Go do a few ballistics gel searches online and see what a Assault round does when it "Punches Holes" in flesh.

The machine gun section where they say "This is the real world" and then put in some completely inaccurate comparisons which are 100% false to prove their point are too hard for me to swallow.

Rifles, Assault Guns and Machine gun section needs a complete rewrite. I understand why they are trying to make Shotguns the Holy Grail of Zombie Fighting but come on.

OK, Rant over.

Any Other Gun Junkies that pick up this book then you will have to amend the Weapons section. Specially if you ever served in the military in any Infantry type role or even Police officers or SWAT members.

So far that is my only gripe.

You should have continued with the paragraph. "They lack the accuracy needed to pick off zombies at range and wild firing is likely to hit a comrade or innocent person." Seriously, talk to some Marines or soldiers once in a while.

And why can't a burst be used with a called shot. I've seen plenty of three-round bursts in a tight group. We do use the sights; we're not firing from the hip.

Just the underlined part. I use to be assigned to 10th Group 2nd Battalion at Ft. Devens Mass as a tech back in the Eighties. Not Robin Sage certified but training from the time I was assigned to the unit.


@ Pepsi Jedi
I see the point about the composition of the undead flesh not being like human flesh but with it being necrotic then it should be blown apart easier being all dry and crusty just from the pressure wave. Kind of like shooting a big dry wasp nest.


@ Spinachcat
Yeah you are right about Gun Junkie Gamers. We are a finiky lot when it comes to mixing our Gamer and gun hobbies.



Just to clarify, I am not angry in the least and I apologize if it came off that way. I through a smiley face in and the End of Rant line to try and let people know it was just a silly rant.

It was just being a gun enthusiast as well as Military experience made me balk at the quotes.

For those who want to see the Videos then go to Youtube and type in AK versus Watermelon and Ballistics gel and searches like that.

Really sorry if I sounded angry guys. Just a silly rant. I do like most everything else about DR and I am not even a huge Zombie fan.

[The Galactus Kid]

Finally had a little time to read DR a little more and kind of wished I had skipped the Weapons section.


OK, I know my like of firearms slants my view but the Weapons and Equipment section is just silly.
From the book, Pg 110 under assault rifles.
"I have not found any good reason to use an assault rifle except against the living.While they can throw a bunch of lead, generally they just punch holes in the necrotic flesh rather than slowing the Zombie down." OMFG!!! I guess somehow in the DR universe there is no damaging shock wave when a bullet passes through. Just pokes a hole and moves on.

Man whoever wrote that needs to do a little research. BADLY!!! Go do a few ballistics gel searches online and see what a Assault round does when it "Punches Holes" in flesh.

The machine gun section where they say "This is the real world" and then put in some completely inaccurate comparisons which are 100% false to prove their point are too hard for me to swallow.

Rifles, Assault Guns and Machine gun section needs a complete rewrite. I understand why they are trying to make Shotguns the Holy Grail of Zombie Fighting but come on.

OK, Rant over.

Any Other Gun Junkies that pick up this book then you will have to amend the Weapons section. Specially if you ever served in the military in any Infantry type role or even Police officers or SWAT members.

So far that is my only gripe.

You should have continued with the paragraph. "They lack the accuracy needed to pick off zombies at range and wild firing is likely to hit a comrade or innocent person." Seriously, talk to some Marines or soldiers once in a while.

And why can't a burst be used with a called shot. I've seen plenty of three-round bursts in a tight group. We do use the sights; we're not firing from the hip.

Just the underlined part. I use to be assigned to 10th Group 2nd Battalion at Ft. Devens Mass as a tech back in the Eighties. Not Robin Sage certified but training from the time I was assigned to the unit.


@ Pepsi Jedi
I see the point about the composition of the undead flesh not being like human flesh but with it being necrotic then it should be blown apart easier being all dry and crusty just from the pressure wave. Kind of like shooting a big dry wasp nest.


@ Spinachcat
Yeah you are right about Gun Junkie Gamers. We are a finiky lot when it comes to mixing our Gamer and gun hobbies.



Just to clarify, I am not angry in the least and I apologize if it came off that way. I through a smiley face in and the End of Rant line to try and let people know it was just a silly rant.

It was just being a gun enthusiast as well as Military experience made me balk at the quotes.

For those who want to see the Videos then go to Youtube and type in AK versus Watermelon and Ballistics gel and searches like that.

Really sorry if I sounded angry guys. Just a silly rant. I do like most everything else about DR and I am not even a huge Zombie fan.

I didn't think you sounded angry, but since I'm not a gun junkie, I was wondering HOW you would ammend the gun section like you said in your post.

[dark brandon]

I didn't think you sounded angry, but since I'm not a gun junkie, I was wondering HOW you would ammend the gun section like you said in your post.

Agreed. It's one thing to complain/have a problem with....but since you are in the know, for those of us who want to run a game and want to take the advice of someone who has used the gun extensively, it would be nice to see how you would/think it should be corrected.

[Ninjafingers]

Finally had a little time to read DR a little more and kind of wished I had skipped the Weapons section.


OK, I know my like of firearms slants my view but the Weapons and Equipment section is just silly.
From the book, Pg 110 under assault rifles.
"I have not found any good reason to use an assault rifle except against the living.While they can throw a bunch of lead, generally they just punch holes in the necrotic flesh rather than slowing the Zombie down." OMFG!!! I guess somehow in the DR universe there is no damaging shock wave when a bullet passes through. Just pokes a hole and moves on.

Man whoever wrote that needs to do a little research. BADLY!!! Go do a few ballistics gel searches online and see what a Assault round does when it "Punches Holes" in flesh.

The machine gun section where they say "This is the real world" and then put in some completely inaccurate comparisons which are 100% false to prove their point are too hard for me to swallow.

Rifles, Assault Guns and Machine gun section needs a complete rewrite. I understand why they are trying to make Shotguns the Holy Grail of Zombie Fighting but come on.

OK, Rant over.

Any Other Gun Junkies that pick up this book then you will have to amend the Weapons section. Specially if you ever served in the military in any Infantry type role or even Police officers or SWAT members.

So far that is my only gripe.

You should have continued with the paragraph. "They lack the accuracy needed to pick off zombies at range and wild firing is likely to hit a comrade or innocent person." Seriously, talk to some Marines or soldiers once in a while.

And why can't a burst be used with a called shot. I've seen plenty of three-round bursts in a tight group. We do use the sights; we're not firing from the hip.

Just the underlined part. I use to be assigned to 10th Group 2nd Battalion at Ft. Devens Mass as a tech back in the Eighties. Not Robin Sage certified but training from the time I was assigned to the unit.


@ Pepsi Jedi
I see the point about the composition of the undead flesh not being like human flesh but with it being necrotic then it should be blown apart easier being all dry and crusty just from the pressure wave. Kind of like shooting a big dry wasp nest.


@ Spinachcat
Yeah you are right about Gun Junkie Gamers. We are a finiky lot when it comes to mixing our Gamer and gun hobbies.



Just to clarify, I am not angry in the least and I apologize if it came off that way. I through a smiley face in and the End of Rant line to try and let people know it was just a silly rant.

It was just being a gun enthusiast as well as Military experience made me balk at the quotes.

For those who want to see the Videos then go to Youtube and type in AK versus Watermelon and Ballistics gel and searches like that.

Really sorry if I sounded angry guys. Just a silly rant. I do like most everything else about DR and I am not even a huge Zombie fan.

Just to clarify, that comment wasn't directed at you Preacher.

And not speaking for Preacher, but my annoyance with the assault rifle section is with the fluff and not the rules. I haven't done a recent comparison in assault rifle damage from one book to another, but IIRC the damage is about the same in DR as it is in HU2 or Rifts. If assault rifles aren't that effective against zombies, then the rules should reflect that.

I'm a mild gun nut, so when I read things such as "assault rifles lack accuracy" I get annoyed. And for the record, I too am not angry. I just like things to be as accurate as possible.

[Pepsi Jedi]

@ Pepsi Jedi
I see the point about the composition of the undead flesh not being like human flesh but with it being necrotic then it should be blown apart easier being all dry and crusty just from the pressure wave. Kind of like shooting a big dry wasp nest..

See but flesh doesn't do that unless it's dried out and left out in the sun to get that way and the wind pulls all the moisture out of it and everything.

I'd think it'd be more like aged beef or beef jerkey. Or.. well a rotted critter you find out in the woods.

Hurm. *taps chin* but in desert areas.. I could see the dry crackly flesh. Yeah. but still. Bullets shockwaves and what not are transmitted though the liquids in the body. Not the solids. So while shooting a dry rotted zombie would indeed damage it. I think it'd still be holes punching though. Vs 'trauma' which a zombie can't feel.

[Shotgun Jolly]

And lets not forget that the Zeds dont feel the pain as would a normal human.

Yes, the bullets may tear massive chuncks out of them, it may snap bones, or even remove limbs, or torsos. They dont care.. they dont even feel it..

So, yes.. all these wonderful ammo types may total destroye a peson rib cage and vitals..But Zack, he doesnt even need the rip cage and vitals.. That why zombies, can crawl, walk, scuttle, limp towards a person.. regardless. They dont have the pain slowing them down.

I understand the part with the rounds doing damage to the nervous system, so they may loose the use of a limb or part. But they are gonna keep coming for you.. thats what Zack does best.

[ghost2020]

LOL

Heck, in Beyond the Supernatural they list and automatic handgun as one that when you pull the trigger it continues to fire until it runs out of ammo.

I think they meant Machine Pistol.
Most handguns are semi-automatic.

It's a role playing game so I get that it can't always make everyone happy but...

Don't get me started on the whole -10 to dodge!
The reality being that you're more apt to NOT get hit during a gunfight than hit. The hit % are actually quite low.

A great read...

http://www.gunthorp.com/What%20happens% ... nfight.htm

[Rockwolf66]

And lets not forget that the Zeds dont feel the pain as would a normal human.

Yes, the bullets may tear massive chuncks out of them, it may snap bones, or even remove limbs, or torsos. They dont care.. they dont even feel it..

So, yes.. all these wonderful ammo types may total destroye a peson rib cage and vitals..But Zack, he doesnt even need the rip cage and vitals.. That why zombies, can crawl, walk, scuttle, limp towards a person.. regardless. They dont have the pain slowing them down.

I understand the part with the rounds doing damage to the nervous system, so they may loose the use of a limb or part. But they are gonna keep coming for you.. thats what Zack does best.

You are forgetting that Bones are what holds a person upright. A zed without a funtioning hip cannot walk towards you and is a lesser threat than a fast zombie that can move as fast as you can. It's called slowing down the enemy and as zombies cannot heal the damage done to them is perminant. While you may not see the practicality of slowing down a zombie horde. Crawling zombies are easier to kill than those that are walking and have more difficulty with barriers. heck if used correctly one can use Jersy barricades to make a barbique pit where you couldn't with shamblers.

Pepsi Jedi,

I sugest that you reasearch the Thompson LaGuarde tests. they did test handgun rounds on Cadavers and used some of those findings in their report. Basically the findind was hit the target with the largest handgun one can shoot accuratly.

[Pepsi Jedi]

And lets not forget that the Zeds dont feel the pain as would a normal human.

Yes, the bullets may tear massive chuncks out of them, it may snap bones, or even remove limbs, or torsos. They dont care.. they dont even feel it..

So, yes.. all these wonderful ammo types may total destroye a peson rib cage and vitals..But Zack, he doesnt even need the rip cage and vitals.. That why zombies, can crawl, walk, scuttle, limp towards a person.. regardless. They dont have the pain slowing them down.

I understand the part with the rounds doing damage to the nervous system, so they may loose the use of a limb or part. But they are gonna keep coming for you.. thats what Zack does best.

You are forgetting that Bones are what holds a person upright. A zed without a funtioning hip cannot walk towards you and is a lesser threat than a fast zombie that can move as fast as you can. It's called slowing down the enemy and as zombies cannot heal the damage done to them is perminant. While you may not see the practicality of slowing down a zombie horde. Crawling zombies are easier to kill than those that are walking and have more difficulty with barriers. heck if used correctly one can use Jersy barricades to make a barbique pit where you couldn't with shamblers.

Pepsi Jedi,

I sugest that you reasearch the Thompson LaGuarde tests. they did test handgun rounds on Cadavers and used some of those findings in their report. Basically the findind was hit the target with the largest handgun one can shoot accuratly.

Well that's a no brainer in many situations but again. Zombies can't feel pain. Nerve and trauma to the 'vital organs' means nothing to zombies. As they don't feel and don't need them to remain animated.

As for the shooting them and slowing them down. That's true. You blow off their legs and they crawl towards you.

This too was addressed more than once in WWZ. The crawlers were often times more dangerous than the slouchers. As they'd be down below eye level and after the first month or so of the Rise, you couldn't see them coming. They'd be under the grass height or in bushes or wht ever and you'd be strolling along keeping your eyes peeled for that zombie walking at you then CHOMP one bites you in the ankle and you're done for. Or TRIP. one trips you up and you fall down into 20 zombies who some smart guy blew the legs off of. It gave them a sort of inadvertant stealth.

Our 'tamed areas' would go wild toot sweet with out us to maintain them. Nature would creep back in. Heck 90% of populated CA is scrubland or desert. With out ______massive_____ human interaction it will revert to it's wild state in short short time.

Personally. My games will be using a very high percentage of sprinters. About 50% I believe. So the shoot um in the legs thing won't help all that much. Well. Correction. It WILL help to slow down the sprinters. But if you've watched Dawn of the Dead '04. Where the zombie who's legs were cut off came swinging in from the rafters and dropped on that guy., well you have a clue. legless doesn't mean stagnant. And if you have no pain receptors, dragging your legs and lower torso along the ground doesn't hurt, so you can move as fast as your arms can propell you.

Slower than a sprinter? Sure... a sprinter with no legs? Faster than a sloucher!

[Shotgun Jolly]

You are forgetting that Bones are what holds a person upright. A zed without a funtioning hip cannot walk towards you and is a lesser threat than a fast zombie that can move as fast as you can. It's called slowing down the enemy and as zombies cannot heal the damage done to them is perminant. While you may not see the practicality of slowing down a zombie horde. Crawling zombies are easier to kill than those that are walking and have more difficulty with barriers. heck if used correctly one can use Jersy barricades to make a barbique pit where you couldn't with shamblers.

Not at all, I am keeping that well in mind. Yes, a shattered pelvis my really inhibit movement. It still doest stop them. A shattered arm bone, may stop the arm from doing anything other then hanging downwards at a very un natural angle. they are not going to stop and sit down and try and get help, they are gonna keep coming. I am just saying, the the use of certain weapons that would be effective against a living target, may not always be effective against those of the none living type.

Sure.. you can have nothing but a Head attached to the spine, with the arms, rib cage and pelvis tore from its body just lying there. That Zombie is still going to try and bite..

It may be a good idea to develop a damage table, when the HP or what ever is reached, roll.. and see the effects. Perhaps loose an arm, loose SPD. Leg severed from body.. and every time the damage limit is reached you roll to see what the effect is. This would simulate the body being slowly ground up into mush..

EDIT: In some games, using the zombie head on the spine as a weapon like some sort of ball and chain/morning star may be kind of fun

[rebis]

I have a one word reply to arguments over why some firearms work and
some don't. Ready? MAGIC! yep, magic, the zombies in the game live off
of PPE or Potential Psychic Energy the fuel of magic in the palladium
megaverse. Why does a cross repel a vampire? magic. why don't dragons
need to eat? magic. The basic laws of life and cellular thermodynamics
don't apply, so why would you assume that all the laws of physics do?

Plus I thought the zombie from Dead Reign had a form of healing factors when they make a kill.

[Steeler49er]

Frankly... I'm with Pepsi (and have been since his first comment) on this!
I'm suprised at how initially long it took someone to post a reply to his first post.

Pepsi's dead on right on this, unless you unload (err...Cap Off) 100 rnds of ballistic madness into a Zombie OR Bother to use a few well aimed series of shots at bone support, zombies will just ignore the impact and take pittance of damage.

I've Seen what a single rifle round does to a Live pig, gel test dumbys And dead pigs (the latter was done by a drunk friend with very lil moral compass)... The effects are Dead <Reign> on with Pepsi...

Live pig=Explosion on pain and guts
Ballistic Test Gel dumbie=Same
Dead Mr. Oinkers=Allota nothin... Small holes.

But if yer gonna point out the effect on bones, yer gonna have ta take into consideration, the books argument was A) Written by a Survivor who was Only bringing up the value of the Un-aimed wildness of combat, but B) If that is your case, than a High powered sniper rifle (or something like a Parker Hale Model 85, SIG SSG2000 or H&K PSG-1) woulda beat out Both a Full auto AND a shot gun!

But give me a Full Auto converted-CZ 550 loaded with .600 Overkill rnds any day, that'd make me happer that snot-fire

[dark brandon]

Just curious, has anyone suggested any rule alterations on this discussion, since, I don't think I've seen one person arguing for a change offer any constructive ideas. Not that that is a problem, just seems kinda pointless to argue something and not offer a house rule or something for those of us who

A) Only like to shoot guns

B) Don't want to go test them

[Robroy]

OK I know this kind of an old thread but I have been busy

Some were asking about rule changes / house rules for weapons so here goes.

The basic damage by caliber list is a good base line I go with it

On cartridge types I change the following

Hollow points and soft points are designed to expand in meat but do not penetrate well
+1d6 to damage
+1 to targets AR

Armor piercing/ Teflon (KTW Rounds) Are jut that, piercing a body and armor alike
-1D6 to damage
-2 to targets AR

Exploding/ Mercury tipped, I add Glaser and other Fragmenting rounds to this category, they break up easily
+2d6 to damage
+2 to targets AR

Now armor
If for example,shoot and only hit the armor (roll below AR) you do the base damage. A .45 hollow pont and an armor piercing both stopped by armor would do 4D6 damage.

Shotguns
Despite the nick of street sweepers buck shot well spread about 1 inch per 10 feet (i.e. a patern at 60 feet will be about 6 inchs in dia.)

Buck shot does full damage up to 30 feet(15 for saw offs), 1/2 damage after that

Submachine guns
As far as the text in DR goes it only for some. Some like the MAC 10 (short barrel, high cycle rate,open bolt) will throw a patern worse then a sawed off

Some others like the MP-5 are select fire (single, burst, full auto) and very accurate. In WW2 there was a carbine called a Delsile (misspell ?) .45 cal. it would shoot 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards.

This one is has to be a DM call what a sub gun (or any weapon) can and can't do. But when it comes to clearing a room I will ask this, when a hostage rescue team or SWAT goes in, do they have shotguns or subguns?

Assault rifles
These can also be very accurate

sure you hose down a zombie hord at the knee but did you hit something important (roll above AR ) or put some new holes in them (roll below AR )

I see zombie AR as how hard it is to hit those vital areas that will slow or stop the undead

[Thinyser]

Finally had a little time to read DR a little more and kind of wished I had skipped the Weapons section.


OK, I know my like of firearms slants my view but the Weapons and Equipment section is just silly.
From the book, Pg 110 under assault rifles.
"I have not found any good reason to use an assault rifle except against the living.While they can throw a bunch of lead, generally they just punch holes in the necrotic flesh rather than slowing the Zombie down." OMFG!!! I guess somehow in the DR universe there is no damaging shock wave when a bullet passes through. Just pokes a hole and moves on.

Man whoever wrote that needs to do a little research. BADLY!!! Go do a few ballistics gel searches online and see what a Assault round does when it "Punches Holes" in flesh.

The machine gun section where they say "This is the real world" and then put in some completely inaccurate comparisons which are 100% false to prove their point are too hard for me to swallow.

Rifles, Assault Guns and Machine gun section needs a complete rewrite. I understand why they are trying to make Shotguns the Holy Grail of Zombie Fighting but come on.

OK, Rant over.

Any Other Gun Junkies that pick up this book then you will have to amend the Weapons section. Specially if you ever served in the military in any Infantry type role or even Police officers or SWAT members.

So far that is my only gripe.

Yeah, and did you see the sub-machine guns are ONLY burst and completely lack the ability to fire single rounds.

I have gripes with this as well as the natural 17+ rule for called shots to the zombie head/neck area.

Now to be fair the small caliber, fast moving, FMJ rounds found in our military while doing a good job penitrating and killing the enemy its done without blowing them to bits which is what is desired when dealing with zombies.

I took a good look at this math and it makes the game broken as it stands. here is why:

A 5 round burst from an assult rifle is listed as doing 1d6x10 which would be halved on a zombie because of the fact that their body is just an animated mass of already dead tissue. Blasting a small caliber, high velocity, FMJ, through the tissue is going to poke a hole and knock a fist sized hunk of flesh off the thing which is not going to "harm" it the same as a simular hole poked in a living breathing man. This means the average 5 round burst will do about 15 SDC to zombies. Slouchers are listed as 3d6+30 for mainbody so an average of about 40 SDC. Thats 3 (say 4 for good measure), 5 round (2 action) bursts to get through a zombie's SDC with bursts to the torso... Then you still need to get through thier 16-21 HP which would add 1-2 more long bursts. That translates to up to 5-6, 2 action (WTH? 10-12 actions to long burst down ONE zombie?), 5 round bursts laying out a full 30 round mag for one zombie. That's a whole lot of lead to carry around just so you can mow down one zombie, if you ask me.

Single shots are not any better.

A single shot from assult rifles does 4d6+2 which halved is only 2d6+1 which is about 8 SDC on average. The head has 2d6+14 (about 21) SDC and then as it says in the book you must either tripple this for "a total of 48-78 in one strike" (a VERY rare occurance with only 2d6+1 for a single shot from an M-16) you will need to deplete all the head's SDC and then the full HP of the zombie another 16-21 points. Thats about 40 total points of SDC & HP. With an average of 8 SDC per single shot you are looking for 5 shots that hit the head and do average or above damage. Now with called shots taking 2 actions that is 10 actions two less than bursting at the torso AND all that with an arbitrairy NATURAL 17+ (20%) required to strike. Hey 20% thats one out of five. So out of every 5 attacks you direct at the zombie's head only one will hit. For one zombie you could be looking at 50 actions, 40 missed shots and 10 shots that hit, to kill them with head shots. Thats more than a mag and a half.

That would take 5 people each spending 2 five action rounds or 30 seconds taking head shots at one single zombie to kill it.
Now tell me that is not broken.

At least make it so called shots to the head have normal bonuses and that called shots take only one action. IMO Aiming should add an action but increases bonus to strike by +2 while taking a called shot means that you are attempting to hit that section of the target not that you are specifically taking the time to look at your sights and aim.

So assuming you have to get 17 + to hit the brain area of the head but could add bonuses you could have good +3 with various PP and WP bonuses so you would have a 35% chance (about 1 in 3) of hitting and with called shots taking no extra actions you get 5 hits in only 15 actions or 3 people taking head shots for one 5 action 15 second melee.

Still seems a tad broken.

If you say that the zombies take full damage from the small caliber fast moving FMJ That reduces it to about 7-8 actions to head shot a zombie to death and would help on the burst option too.

All in all I'm not overly impressed with the lack of thought that went into the mechanics of this Zombie Apocalypse.

My other rants are with the prices of some things "pre apocalypse" like the $20 for a 100 count box of .22 rounds or the $120 for the 100 rounds of 7.62 rounds. Try $40 for 500 .22 rounds or $155 for 500 rounds of 7.62 and you get a free plastic box to carry them in. BONUS! Also note with the 7.62 rounds you can move up to hollow points with a 30 FPS faster muzle velocity and no loss of grain weight for only $10 more instead of the $50 added pre-apocalypse in-game. It clearly states these are pre-apocalypse prices and that you can expect to pay more, some 2x to 3x to 5x more, now that the dead reign. $5-6 for one 7.62 round when it takes a half dozen shots minimum to bring one down? come on thats not right... even in a zombie apocalypse.

Sorry did not mean to derail thread in any way please keep coments here about OP subject if you want to reply to my rant feel free to start a new thread.

[Brian Manning]

Why are you halving the damage? I don't see that listed anywhere for assault rifles. Am I missing it?

*edit* I found a note under low caliber pistols saying they inflict half damage to the main body and 10% to the head and neck. I missed it the first time around, because seriously...who uses low caliber pistols to kill zombies? You don't need James Bond to kill zombies for you. **


** no offense intended for fans of using lower caliber lady guns to de-animate the undead.

[kaid]

Its not that assault weapons and machine guns cannot be useful against zombies its just that for the most part they are not really idea. Yes if you shoot up the body and hit a spine you could knock one down but for most people the amount of shots needed to do it would make the weapon not very cost effective. Ammo gets hard to come by and spray and pray while it can work is not a great long term survival option.

Shotguns get so much talk because most of your targets are slow moving things that are working very hard to get up close and personal with you which is pretty much ideal targets and range for shotguns. When clearing a building you almost cannot miss with a shotgun specially a sawed off one.

For the most part for zombie hunting you want stuff good at pretty close range single shot/semi auto with common ammo types that will be easy to get more bullets. You may also want to have something like a 30-.06 for long range sniping if you can see something coming from a long way off to wittle the targets down.

Honestly something like an AK would still be pretty decent as their long range accuracy is not to terrible and its a pretty good sized round. I would likely not do much bursting though unless its really hit the fan single aimed shots would be idea.


Edit

Oh and I am pretty sure the half damage thing was for small caliber weapons such as 22 and maybe even the .223 or whatever the heck the ar15 shoot. Those things are great for humans but its a tiny round and does little shock damage. The AK and SKS fire much bigger rounds and should do full damage on their targets. I will have to double check the rules though.

[Thinyser]

Thinyser i think you have some problems with you analysis.

assault rifles have larger caliber bullets and do full damage to zombies as far as i know.

Assult rifles may have very fast moving bullets but they are low caliber and in comparison to the medium and heavy maching guns they speak of as doing full damage I think they do half damage. If not then its better, but still broken for other reasons.

the 17+ head shot rule is hard and fast (no bonus are added)

you mean the rule is hard and fast like "set in stone" or the shooting is "hard and fast" so you dont have time to use your training and natural aptitude? Either way I have to say that its a silly statement. No rules in palladium are set in stone, you can change them to fit your game, and Palladium themselves has and will change things in thier revisions. To address the point I think you were trying to make very few circumstances will prevent a character from getting their bonuses to strike. And the opponent being a slow moving zombie's head is not one of them... until now. For some reason they decide that everybody from a trained and talented marine sniper to some kid who has never fired his gun before have the same flat 20% chance to hit. Sorry I'm not interested in that pile of Bull dung.

A PP over 16 does NOT add bonuses to your shooting...EVER.

Hmm... Care to back that up with a book and page # for referance because I've been playing palladium for about 8 years now and never once have I run into ANYBODY who has said this before, and I'm certain I have never seen it stated in print... and even if it is canon I would not play it that way.

Now what I think you meant to say was that your bouses gained from your HtH skill do not apply to gunplay, which might be true but I have to disagree with this on a non canon level. It verywell might be the canon intention to have the extra attacks and bonuses only apply to actuall hand to hand attacks with fisticuffs and swords and the like, and this makes complete sense, but I wont run it that way. I would be fine playing that way if I ever ran into a GM who played it that way. In the 3 GM's I've had none have played it that way and when I run, needless to say, neither do I.

don't forget the huge bonuses for attacking at close ranges to make long bursts very effective.

I hope this helps

Yeah that +3 to strike the head from 1-24 inches away adds a whopping 15% to hit which still leaves you at only a 35% chance if you play 17+. Bursts to the body would be at +7 so you only need to roll the normal 8 to strike (and you get to add your other bonuses) to get 15 and bypass the 14 AR. but you still waste LOTS of precious ammo bursting into their torso. Oh but remember you have to come to a dead stop, stand stationary and shoot to get these (or the pitiful bonuses given in the 3-15 foot range.) I'm not to damn likely to stop and take a shooters stance with a zombie 1-24 inches from me.

See my other thread with some quick fixeshere

[Brian Manning]

Oh and I am pretty sure the half damage thing was for small caliber weapons such as 22 and maybe even the .223 or whatever the heck the ar15 shoot. Those things are great for humans but its a tiny round and does little shock damage. The AK and SKS fire much bigger rounds and should do full damage on their targets. I will have to double check the rules though.

Assult rifles may have very fast moving bullets but they are low caliber and in comparison to the medium and heavy maching guns they speak of as doing full damage I think they do half damage. If not then its better, but still broken for other reasons.

In one section of the book, it mentions low caliber weapons doing half damage, but heavy weapons and shotguns doing full damage. But if you look at the section listing the various weapon categories, the only one that mentions the half damage penalty is the low caliber pistol section (under "zombie combat note"). The rest of the weapons (medium/heavy handguns on up) do their full listed damage.

[Thinyser]

Oh and I am pretty sure the half damage thing was for small caliber weapons such as 22 and maybe even the .223 or whatever the heck the ar15 shoot. Those things are great for humans but its a tiny round and does little shock damage. The AK and SKS fire much bigger rounds and should do full damage on their targets. I will have to double check the rules though.

Assult rifles may have very fast moving bullets but they are low caliber and in comparison to the medium and heavy maching guns they speak of as doing full damage I think they do half damage. If not then its better, but still broken for other reasons.

In one section of the book, it mentions low caliber weapons doing half damage, but heavy weapons and shotguns doing full damage. But if you look at the section listing the various weapon categories, the only one that mentions the half damage penalty is the low caliber pistol section (under "zombie combat note"). The rest of the weapons (medium/heavy handguns on up) do their full listed damage.

Good. I'm glad I'm wrong on that it makes canon ONE step towards not broken.

[maasenstodt]

A PP over 16 does NOT add bonuses to your shooting...EVER.

Just a quick note to say that this is not a consistent rule in Palladium's games. I don't own Dead Reign (yet) but most of my favorite Palladium titles (e.g., Mechanoids, PFRPG, and Splicers) allow PP bonuses to add to strike rolls with firearms.

I've played games both ways and I think allowing PP bonuses is the way to go, with the caveat that the PP bonus applied can never be greater than the WP bonus. This allows exceptional balance and manual dexterity to help with one's shooting while subordinating it to training and experience.

[Thinyser]

Thinyser:

i was just stating the rules as they appear in the book. yes, i will agree that if you disagree with anything you are liable to change it as you see fit.

But head shots, are always 17+ as stated in the rules.

Not before now it hasnt been. And there is no justificaiton for it now so its an arbitrairy "game balance" rule that actually BREAKS the game by making zombies TOO damn tough to hit and kill.

I also think this rule is dumb but i think it was added as a way to balance the game, otherwise everyone would just shoot at the head all of the time.

Which is exactly what they should be doing since destroying the brain (be it by trauma or flames) is the only way to really kill them. Any SMART person would be taking nothing but headshots against the zeds, to do otherwise is a good way to get yourself killed.

I said PP bonuses (for a PP of 16 or greater) do NOT apply to your shooting bonuses. That rule can be found on page 179 of dead reign in the top right hand corner of the page under No Weapon Proficiency (the last sentence in the paragraph) and Appear once again on page 180 in the middle of the second column where it is in bold letters stating "A character's P.P. Bonuses do NOT count when shooting a gun."

This section on 179, as you noted, is specifically for characters with no W.P. and would therefore not apply to a person that has enough experience using their weapon to be considerd proficient. Also there are several noted penalties such as the no called shots which makes me think that they are using this section to specifically enhance the fact that "Joe Average" with no skill in firearms is in a WORLD of hurt when it comes to protecting himself from the Zed heads.

Were it not for the sentance on p.180 I would say that this is not applied to all characters but only those that lack trainging/experence with their weapon. As it is I have to accept that Kevin and crew thought for some reason this would be a good thing in DR, maybe to make it feel more gritty or some such. IMO all it succeds in doing is making it MORE broken. Personally I would not run it this way... even in the world of DR.

Also This does not back up your claim that "A PP over 16 does NOT add bonuses to your shooting...EVER" because when it comes to Palladium's megaversal system this is the one and only "world" that this quirk applies to so saying that it does not apply "EVER" is totally incorrect. A statement of "In the world of Dead Reign PP bonuses never apply when shooting guns." Is, by canon, a completly true statment (unless sombody can find another quote from DR that says something else*)

And no you wouldn't want to get that close to a zombie but you will eventually. and the bonuses are good. I would hope zombies would at least get within Melee combat range seeing as that is pretty much the only way they can hurt you.

At some point some will, but the point of the game is to not let that happen if at all possible, because as you know a Zombie's only chance to get its fix of PPE is to be within range when a kill is made and the only way a kill can be made is with hands and teeth.

So yeah the Zeds are going to be trying their best to get upcloseandpersonal and its the character's best choice to NOT let this happen by taking them out from as far away as is possible given thier particular circumstances. I still see the +1 to headshots from 3-15 feet as lack luster. Seriously, +1 from 3 feet away? That's still 16 needed to strike with no other bonuses. that only a 25% chance to hit from 3 feet! I could put a bullet through a sloucher's eye from 3 feet, a headshot from that range is a gimme on anthing that doesnt duck and dodge which zeds dont do... but my point is IF a zed gets that close to me then I'm already not doing my best to keep myself alive.

*Not very likely since we only have one book to dig in but with Palladium's record of contractions not impossible either.

[Rockwolf66]

But head shots, are always 17+ as stated in the rules. I also think this rule is dumb but i think it was added as a way to balance the game, otherwise everyone would just shoot at the head all of the time.

While a Headshot has always been a 17 plus roll to strike this is the first and hopefully only time we players have been backstabbed with having it be a "natural" roll. I mean my survivor with a laser sighted SIG P-226R mm with Laser Sight should be able to literally pop zombies for as long as he has ammo. I mean he should have a +3 from WP, a +2 if he has time to aim at a shambler, and a +3 from the laser sight. That's a grand total of +8 or he has a 55% chance of a headshot. That may sound pretty high but trust me it's not that great an odds.

As for survivors makeing headshots right and left. That's what is supost to happen when you are faceing an enemy that when properly planned for is the next best thing to a moveing target. heck, the last Bear encounter that happened to the relative of a friend was stopped by a pair of headshots. Yeah that's right Smokey was looking to make a meal out of a bodern 49er and him and his brother only got a diet of lead. Impressive shooting of a small target trying to cover 25 yards at roughtly the same speed that a horse gallops.

[Noon]

'Course, if one to ask what people play for, the usual pat answer is "Oh, the story!". Yet at the same time if anything is realism jarring is there, forget any story that might have happened. As soon as something spoils the realism aesthetic, story would never be enough to get over that hill.