Dealing with good ol' fashioned PITA Carpet of Adhesion

[Severite]

You could always have them face off a mid level/group of low level mages..........antimagic barrier will defeat that strategy, forcing them to come up with a new one, also, you can always 'seal' away certain effects, makeing unsealing a major plot device. Then there is the possibility of throwing a character/mob who doesn't care that they are stuck to the ground.

[ZorValachan]

Or you can just use the good ol' 'Molatov Cocktail' rule. If the party starts to use a tactic over and over, someone, somewhere, at some time will start telling others. And if it is such a good idea, others will eventually use it against the player characters.

Everyone sticky on both sides and see how the player characters deal with that scenario.

And the range.... 30 feet per level, or later in the description it says 90 feet away.... at 3rd level that is 90 feet anyway. So the mage can cast one 90 feet away. Um..one of the lowest guns around (CS-18 pistol) has a range of 800 feet. Why are all the PA pilots, soldiers, etc. getting that close?

Also.. Talisman is a 13th level spell. How the hell did level 3 characters get this?

[csbioborg]

well put them against CS troops with a sense of tactics Interlocking fields of fire Punji traps ambush

[Talavar]

A few points: first Carpet of Adhesion can't be cast on something flying, if I'm understanding the OP's description - it has to sit on a surface.

Since Carpet of Adhesion is an old spell that's never been properly updated in my opinion, in my games we've house-ruled that it's duration if you save is 2D6 actions rather than rounds. Back in the earlier versions of Palladium games rounds were short; now I can't imagine a combat lasting 12 rounds.

Have them fight something with a good inherent ability to teleport - Carpet of Adhesion isn't much use if they can just pop out of it.

Have something with Negate Magic or Dispel Magic Barriers - either can get rid of CoA.

Use Carpet of Adhesion back, as others have noted. Nothing that annoying will get used too often after that.

Fight opponents from a longer range - or closer. CoA is only good at preventing movement mid-range; it's not much use if you're getting snipered from 4000 feet or if an axe-wielding demon is right in your face.

[ZorValachan]

What book is the High Magus O.C.C. in? I don't remember that one.

The negate magic spell or various other anti- or change-spells can do it.

You even mentioned a great tactic and proibably didn't even realize it. If the carpet teleports with the victim, have them teleport next to the Player Character who cast it. Now the Player character is stuck too. They defeat themselves

And I admit all my early games I never took range into account. I wanted the guy with the vibro knife to be able to do something in a fight, so combat ended up in close range very fast. Now I see it as a means to make the party think. Glitterboy wants to use the boom gun? Well he better spend an action getting away from friends, or they are deaf (200 feet range), etc. etc. Vibroblade guy wants to get in close, he better have sneak or invisibility or something. It's the variety, strong and weak points that can really make the game interesting as both a player and GM.

[Misfit KotLD]

I think rather than houseruling, just pay attention to range. CoA and Magic Net don't work as well when the enemy fire is coming from several hundred feet away. So if the group wants to get in range, they have to expose themselves to enemy fire until they're close enough to get the spell off.

[Talavar]

A few points: first Carpet of Adhesion can't be cast on something flying, if I'm understanding the OP's description - it has to sit on a surface.

Since Carpet of Adhesion is an old spell that's never been properly updated in my opinion, in my games we've house-ruled that it's duration if you save is 2D6 actions rather than rounds. Back in the earlier versions of Palladium games rounds were short; now I can't imagine a combat lasting 12 rounds.

Have them fight something with a good inherent ability to teleport - Carpet of Adhesion isn't much use if they can just pop out of it.

Have something with Negate Magic or Dispel Magic Barriers - either can get rid of CoA.

Use Carpet of Adhesion back, as others have noted. Nothing that annoying will get used too often after that.

Fight opponents from a longer range - or closer. CoA is only good at preventing movement mid-range; it's not much use if you're getting snipered from 4000 feet or if an axe-wielding demon is right in your face.

I think you need to re-read an updated version of the spell. First off it doesn't have to be cast on a surface, it can be molded as long as it is the same square footage and cast like fly paper on a person. Secondly, If you teleport with it, you are still stuck when you teleport, it comes with you- specifically says this is RUE. With the Flypaper thing in mind, one of the biggest pains that I became aware of this spell was when the heros decided to get involved in a fight where some Black Winged Monster Men were fighting with some Samas. When the BWMM got low enough, they just got fly-papered to themselves and fell out of the air. The ones who did get to land next to the heros to get a few swings in with their giant hammers of smashing fury just ended up being carpeted, then the heros stepped behind them and out of range. I still permitted the BWMM to shoot their lightning bolts provided they could see the heros, however it was a mind opener as to how annoying this spell can be. Although I don't blame them for using such a simple spell to deal with that encounter, it did give me some food for thought.

You're right about casting it right on a person - somehow I never noticed that in the description. Sure, RUE made this broken spell even better, what with the "teleporting takes part of the carpet too" bit, but if something can naturally teleport, it doesn't matter if they're stuck wherever they teleport - they can just teleport again.

I think this spell, and a lot of early spells, need redos or house rules. When Rifts first came out, and Palladium Fantasy before that, a lot of 1st level characters had 2 attacks per round, while some might have had 4 or 5. Now everyone has 4, and some can easily start with 6 or 7. Rounds basically doubled in "length," while those early spells last just as long. It's made a good low level spell even better, particularly since with Carpet of Adhesion even if you save, you lose. The minimum possible time stuck - 2 rounds - can be a really long time "in-game" these days.

[Mouser13]

I don't know how to fix it other then house ruling it. Sayin

Personally I have lost campaigns and players over carpet of stupidness has I like to call it.

Personally I have removed it from the game.


Though what I uselly tell the players is they are opening a can of worms if they are doing someting muncking which abuse of carpet of adhesion I see as munckin.

But personally I see this type of play is just a problem with RPGing in general. In Dnd it overuse of damage spells.

[Captain Shiva]

As it is, my group currently consists of ~level 3 characters of the following rcc's/occs : An elven High Magus, an elven Mystic Knight (order of the white rose), a changeling shifter, a human cyber-knight, a kankoran wilderness scout, and a human (indian) spirit warrior. As it is, they are currently running a campaign in the Oklahoma/Lone Star area. Now, as it is, the majority of their encounters have been with some of the wild beasties of the area, as well as a few other things I've worked into the mix. Although most of them have played rifts before, we just started playing again recently.

I have noticed an extreme tendency of the same thing happening over and over again in combat; almost anything I throw at them generally ends up in them either casting carpet of adhesion on a group of them, or using the carpet's flypaper effect on flying mobs to glue them to themselves and drop them out of the sky. This is annoying, especially because even if the monsters make their save against the spell, they still are pinned far longer than any reasonable combat will last. This combined with a windrush effectively neutralizes most combatants they could face.

In one of our last sessions, I had a 2 psi-nullifiers along with the antagonists and this seemed to create an actual real combat sequence. It was good to see the characters thinking differently, although they inferred that the enemies were immune to magic, and as such I forsee them falling back into their old routines whenever the next battle is waged.

Despite the fact that Oklahoma is very low in ley line energy, the high magi spent quite a bit of time at a ley line in preparation kicking out ppe talismans so him and the mystic knight would basically be well and good for any ppe they will need.

That being said, apart from being attacked from people at a far range, what would you all suggest for dealing with this annoying repetition in our battles?

There are several spells/psionic powers that allow you to walk on air, sometimes only a few inches above the ground. And I would not allow it to be cast in midair. The description says you need to cast it on something, either a solid surface or an individual. If you cast on one Samas out of a squad of six, the effect is minimal unless they collide. And the range is 30' plus 10'/level.A Samas railgun has a range of 4000'. A Juicer could jump over it, as could many other creatures.Carpet of Adhesion is a great spell, but it has its limitations.

[Captain Shiva]

Yes, but you can still only cast on one individual or on a surface,according to RUE, not in midair. Remember, it's Carpet of Adhesion, not Cloud of Adhesion.

[Iczer]

I can't imagine it being too much of a problem.

Casting it on a flyer would simply, well..do nothing. he's sticky, but he's not actually stuck to anything. casting it on an individual would trap him on the spot. sure he cannot seek cover, but he can fire back.

I had an asian theme PF game once, where the solution to Carpet of adhesion was to simply slip out of their footwear and jump to safety.

It's not that hard a spell to counter, and the mild inconvenience it causes is pretty negligible.

Batts

[Captain Shiva]

Yes, but you can still only cast on one individual or on a surface,according to RUE, not in midair. Remember, it's Carpet of Adhesion, not Cloud of Adhesion.

It doesn't state that it cant be on a person in the air, it just says that you can cast it on a surface like the ground, wall, ceiling, etc OR on a person. Also, it says it can be shaped as long as the square footage stays the same. *shrugs* That's the argument that was made to me.

You misunderstood me(partially my fault.) I agree that it can be cast on an individual in midair, just not as an area effect in midair. If you have a 20 or so Gargoyles above you, using the magic flypaper on one doesn't help that much, unless they have a midair collision.And if Gargoyles are stupid enough to fly that low anyway, they deserve to shot down.

[demos606]

I'm curious as to why creatures that can fly would land (or even stay close enough to cast on) knowing there's a mage in the group they're attacking, especially flying creatures with ranged attacks.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Throw a psi-nullifer in a power armor (Psionics work though power armor, including their negation ability), using the NE-77H Cyborg Sholder cannon. Have his buddy be a psi-tech who's tricked both power armors out with extra weapons and sensors, and a Mind Melter pal in another Power armor. Have all of them have very long range guns so they get free shots in to close the distance. Have them be pals of the last psi-null you tossed at 'em.

[Glistam]

If the mage is going to use CoA then just take that into account when designing encounters and throw more enemies at them. And as long as it's the mage casting this spell, the enemies who are stuck will probably find him to be a prime target. And as a mage, he's usually an easy one too.

[Talavar]

The first PC starting to gesture in preparation for a spell should draw the fire of all enemies at once until he is dead. This works especially well if the enemies aren't clustered but spread over a wider area. In general people who are (due to their own actions) suspect of an unknowably high range of power should be made prime targets.

In my game, low-level spell-casting generally takes two full melee actions, which basically gives opfors plenty of time to concentrate fire *or* to try to disrupt the incantation by hugging/holding/etc the spell-caster. In fact, this diminshes the combat effectiveness of spell-casters greatly (to the point of unpopularity even, wrongly so).

The only problem I am having with all this is that I have allowed my party's Battle mage to dodge while spell-casting (because he's a Battle mage) with half dodge Bonus. And since he has PP 30 that is still *a lot*. But hey - he's just *good*, naturally gifted to the highest degree.

Alex

Your advice there doesn't work - low level spells only take one action to cast. You can fire of a CoA before anyone gets a chance to react, your house rules aside. House rules which make me wonder why anyone in your games would play a mage, by the way.

[Talavar]

The first PC starting to gesture in preparation for a spell should draw the fire of all enemies at once until he is dead. This works especially well if the enemies aren't clustered but spread over a wider area. In general people who are (due to their own actions) suspect of an unknowably high range of power should be made prime targets.

In my game, low-level spell-casting generally takes two full melee actions, which basically gives opfors plenty of time to concentrate fire *or* to try to disrupt the incantation by hugging/holding/etc the spell-caster. In fact, this diminshes the combat effectiveness of spell-casters greatly (to the point of unpopularity even, wrongly so).

The only problem I am having with all this is that I have allowed my party's Battle mage to dodge while spell-casting (because he's a Battle mage) with half dodge Bonus. And since he has PP 30 that is still *a lot*. But hey - he's just *good*, naturally gifted to the highest degree.

Alex

Your advice there doesn't work - low level spells only take one action to cast. You can fire of a CoA before anyone gets a chance to react, your house rules aside. House rules which make me wonder why anyone in your games would play a mage, by the way.

Well, first of all, I believe that according to the original Rifts rules, casting low-level spells did take half a melee round. Secondly, as you can observe from the topic starter's post, being able to successfully cast a spell can easily have hideous effects, especially if you have more than one spell-caster in a party. Thirdly, given that NPC have between 3 and 6 actions within 15 seconds, the length of two actions per spell doesn't seem to be unreasonable. The incantation would last anywhere between 5 and 10 seconds.

It has interesting tactical consequences too: the allies of the spell-caster need to protect their comrade, while the opposing forces need to prevent the opposing spell-caster from finishing his spell.

And I don't even mention higher level spells here who take (according to the original rules) at least a full melee round to finish.

All-in-all these rules ask for *coordination*, which is intentional. If the players don't coordinate their actions and everybody just blasts away mindlessly, mages are bound to have a problem. Unless they are Battle Magi with PP 30 perhaps.

Alex

Yes, the old magic rules had 2 magic attacks per round max. If that's what you're using, okay. Still, your rules prejudice against magic-character players pretty heavily. Why bother playing a mage and manage to contribute maybe twice a round to combat, when I can play a juicer or power armour pilot and totally dominate it? If spells were so powerful that the damage rates or effectiveness were equivalent that would be one thing, but they're not: not only would the juicers and power armour pilots get far more game-time per round, but they'd also be the ones accomplishing almost everything.

[Glistam]

not only would the juicers and power armour pilots get far more game-time per round, but they'd also be the ones accomplishing almost everything.

In combat. That's not true outside of combat.

[Captain Shiva]

As it is, my group currently consists of ~level 3 characters of the following rcc's/occs : An elven High Magus, an elven Mystic Knight (order of the white rose), a changeling shifter, a human cyber-knight, a kankoran wilderness scout, and a human (indian) spirit warrior. As it is, they are currently running a campaign in the Oklahoma/Lone Star area. Now, as it is, the majority of their encounters have been with some of the wild beasties of the area, as well as a few other things I've worked into the mix. Although most of them have played rifts before, we just started playing again recently.

I have noticed an extreme tendency of the same thing happening over and over again in combat; almost anything I throw at them generally ends up in them either casting carpet of adhesion on a group of them, or using the carpet's flypaper effect on flying mobs to glue them to themselves and drop them out of the sky. This is annoying, especially because even if the monsters make their save against the spell, they still are pinned far longer than any reasonable combat will last. This combined with a windrush effectively neutralizes most combatants they could face.

In one of our last sessions, I had a 2 psi-nullifiers along with the antagonists and this seemed to create an actual real combat sequence. It was good to see the characters thinking differently, although they inferred that the enemies were immune to magic, and as such I forsee them falling back into their old routines whenever the next battle is waged.

Despite the fact that Oklahoma is very low in ley line energy, the high magi spent quite a bit of time at a ley line in preparation kicking out ppe talismans so him and the mystic knight would basically be well and good for any ppe they will need.

That being said, apart from being attacked from people at a far range, what would you all suggest for dealing with this annoying repetition in our battles?

Here's another idea that recently came to me; but it depends on your interpretation of how the spell works. Does the spell cover the surface of everything inside the area of effect, or just the ground underneath? If the latter, a tank or other vehicle could be immobilized, but a hatch could open up, discharging soldiers with jet packs, flying power armor, or hovercycles, giving the players a nasty surprise.