I need peoples thoughts on Cyber and Mystic Knights

rat_bastard · Unread post by **rat_bastard** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:52 pm

Give me a list of Rules questions you have had for either class.

Library Ogre · Unread post by **Library Ogre** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:00 pm

Do they travel faster if someone follows behind them, clopping coconut halves?

Library Ogre · Unread post by **Library Ogre** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:40 pm

killgore wrote:
Zerebus wrote:What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen Cyber-Knight Swallow R.C.C.?

Is there a difference in speed of an African or European Cyber-Knight Swallow?

:bites tongue:

Seriously, though, ratty, I'll take a gander at the OCCs and see what I can see as things that might be problematic.

RockJock · Unread post by **RockJock** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:27 pm

The biggest question that always comes up with my group is how do you deal with CKs from races with natural psychics. It is mentioned in the later CK versions, but doesn't always match up to NPCS that are in writing.

We have never really had issues with Mystic Knights, but I usually play them as an evil force. We just haven't had the White Rose pop up as more then rumor.

The Galactus Kid · Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:14 pm

RockJock wrote:The biggest question that always comes up with my group is how do you deal with CKs from races with natural psychics. It is mentioned in the later CK versions, but doesn't always match up to NPCS that are in writing.

We have never really had issues with Mystic Knights, but I usually play them as an evil force. We just haven't had the White Rose pop up as more then rumor.

NPC's don't always follow the rules, so looking to them can be problematic. One thing that I want clarified is whether or not scarecrows can be Mystic knights? (p.s. no they can't, but i want to see it in writing)

Balabanto · Unread post by **Balabanto** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:17 pm

I really don't think the classes are particularly bad. All they really get is the ability to run around naked for a while after their armor is destroyed and some cool secondary abilities. They're good characters.

dark brandon · Unread post by **dark brandon** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:13 pm

I'd like to know if MK energy resistance powers confir to their armor in writing.

csbioborg · Unread post by **csbioborg** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:24 am

would the holy hand grenade of antioch trigger a cyber knights tech sense?

Library Ogre · Unread post by **Library Ogre** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:41 pm

Actually, csbiogorg's question raised one in my mind: How does their anti-tech combat interact with techno-wizardry?

rat_bastard · Unread post by **rat_bastard** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:23 pm

Mark Hall wrote:Actually, csbiogorg's question raised one in my mind: How does their anti-tech combat interact with techno-wizardry?

thats in the Description of the class ability, it works like normal tech.

csbioborg · Unread post by **csbioborg** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:18 am

Rogue_Scientist wrote:Yeah, anything more advanced than a bow and arrow can be affected, if I recall correctly.

And it is techno-wizardry. Normal magic and psionics doesn't apply, nor do rune weapons and such, but the TW stuff crosses the line.

My only question/concern has to do with cyber armor. In the original book (which I don't have, and thus can't look up), I'm pretty sure everyone could get cyber armor. It was listed in the section on cybernetics and bionics. It didn't grow or self-regenerate, but it was available. In RUE, that has been omitted. Additionally, the availability of the cyber armor that CKs get seems sketchy at best. Their training and orientation is too spread out for it to be common if it was only available from 1-2 sources. And if it was more commonly available, why hasn't it been copied and duplicated by those with the motive and means to do so? For example, I could easily see the Knights of the White Rose going for a little extra protection from their TWs. It just seems inconsistant.

Also, I think it was a mistake to wave Dues Ex Machina at this one. I'd have rather seen it implemented as some technology-based armor, with the ability to grow stronger over time and (perhaps a more limited) ability regenerate explained by a combination of "memory metal" and nano machines similiar to the RMSS medical kits. A version like that would be a very realistic and useful application for SDC humans in combat/police occupations, similar to how cops today wear bullet proof vests and carry back-up weapons. Ya never know. (And, similarly, not everyone would choose to bother with the trade-offs of such extra protection.)

Also, given that cyber armor (the CK version) is a living armor after level 3, how would you interpret the spell Lifeward to work on it?

I believe that they have normal cyberarmor that starts to mystically bond with them
so it should be the normal stuff bought off the market

Balabanto · Unread post by **Balabanto** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:48 pm

Lifeward is a tricky spell, but since all it does is convert MDC into SDC AFTER the attack hits, guess what? It goes to your SDC and hit points if it bypasses the AR on the Cyberarmor. That's all. It really doesn't make a difference.

TechnoGothic · Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:55 am

I use Cyber-knight as per RUE/SoT4...

As for Mystic Knights...
Good Aligment = Mystic Knight
Evil Aligment = Death Knight
Selfish go either way...

Misfit KotLD · Unread post by **Misfit KotLD** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:50 am

Burulovesyou wrote:
TechnoGothic wrote:I use Cyber-knight as per RUE/SoT4...

As for Mystic Knights...
Good Aligment = Mystic Knight
Evil Aligment = Death Knight
Selfish go either way...

Huh? Aren't good knights the knights of the white rose and the evil guys mystic knights?

Canonically, yes. But in his game, apparently not.

dark brandon · Unread post by **dark brandon** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:33 am

Burulovesyou wrote:
TechnoGothic wrote:I use Cyber-knight as per RUE/SoT4...

As for Mystic Knights...
Good Aligment = Mystic Knight
Evil Aligment = Death Knight
Selfish go either way...

Huh? Aren't good knights the knights of the white rose and the evil guys mystic knights?

Not really.

You can be a good mystic knight and not be a member of the white rose, and nothing says a white rose MK has to be good. WR is an organization.

The Galactus Kid · Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:47 am

dark brandon wrote:
Burulovesyou wrote:
TechnoGothic wrote:I use Cyber-knight as per RUE/SoT4...

As for Mystic Knights...
Good Aligment = Mystic Knight
Evil Aligment = Death Knight
Selfish go either way...

Huh? Aren't good knights the knights of the white rose and the evil guys mystic knights?

Not really.

You can be a good mystic knight and not be a member of the white rose, and nothing says a white rose MK has to be good. WR is an organization.

True. While many of the Knights of the White Rose are good, there are some (more than you would think) that aren't. While some disagreed with the Order of the Mystic Knights and their evil tactics, others just thought that siding with the knights of the White Rose would be more profitable, or were running from something, etc. As dark brandon said, the white rose is an organization, and not all of them follow the same strict code of ethics as some of the others. Miscreant and Aberrant alignments would probably be most common.

Shadyslug · Unread post by **Shadyslug** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:01 pm

The Galactus Kid wrote:True. While many of the Knights of the White Rose are good, there are some (more than you would think) that aren't.

Umm...are you dropping hints at something that may end up in canon later on? Like a war within the Mystic Knights? WR vs. MK's with full betrayal all over the place?

Shadyslug · Unread post by **Shadyslug** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:02 pm

rat_bastard wrote:Give me a list of Rules questions you have had for either class.

Are they bigger than a shoe box? Which one is made of wood?

csbioborg · Unread post by **csbioborg** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:07 pm

The Galactus Kid wrote:
dark brandon wrote:
Burulovesyou wrote:
TechnoGothic wrote:I use Cyber-knight as per RUE/SoT4...

As for Mystic Knights...
Good Aligment = Mystic Knight
Evil Aligment = Death Knight
Selfish go either way...

Huh? Aren't good knights the knights of the white rose and the evil guys mystic knights?

Not really.

You can be a good mystic knight and not be a member of the white rose, and nothing says a white rose MK has to be good. WR is an organization.

True. While many of the Knights of the White Rose are good, there are some (more than you would think) that aren't. While some disagreed with the Order of the Mystic Knights and their evil tactics, others just thought that siding with the knights of the White Rose would be more profitable, or were running from something, etc. As dark brandon said, the white rose is an organization, and not all of them follow the same strict code of ethics as some of the others. Miscreant and Aberrant alignments would probably be most common.

Its been a bit since I read madhaven but I swear that good alignment was a requsite for the OCC since they psckicly read you to make sure. Then you did write it

The Galactus Kid · Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:09 pm

csbioborg wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:
dark brandon wrote:
Burulovesyou wrote:
TechnoGothic wrote:I use Cyber-knight as per RUE/SoT4...

As for Mystic Knights...
Good Aligment = Mystic Knight
Evil Aligment = Death Knight
Selfish go either way...

Huh? Aren't good knights the knights of the white rose and the evil guys mystic knights?

Not really.

You can be a good mystic knight and not be a member of the white rose, and nothing says a white rose MK has to be good. WR is an organization.

True. While many of the Knights of the White Rose are good, there are some (more than you would think) that aren't. While some disagreed with the Order of the Mystic Knights and their evil tactics, others just thought that siding with the knights of the White Rose would be more profitable, or were running from something, etc. As dark brandon said, the white rose is an organization, and not all of them follow the same strict code of ethics as some of the others. Miscreant and Aberrant alignments would probably be most common.

Its been a bit since I read madhaven but I swear that good alignment was a requsite for the OCC since they psckicly read you to make sure. Then you did write it

I believe that it is primarily good and selfish alignments. Evil alignments are not welcomed with open arms, but its really hard to tell when someone is borderline selfish and evil.

dark brandon · Unread post by **dark brandon** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:18 pm

The Galactus Kid wrote:
I believe that it is primarily good and selfish alignments. Evil alignments are not welcomed with open arms, but its really hard to tell when someone is borderline selfish and evil.

Also, note that Alignments can change over time. To be trained, you may have to be good or selfish, but that doesn't mean over the course of adventuring you don't turn evil.

Balabanto · Unread post by **Balabanto** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:12 pm

The Galactus Kid wrote:
dark brandon wrote:
Burulovesyou wrote:
TechnoGothic wrote:I use Cyber-knight as per RUE/SoT4...

As for Mystic Knights...
Good Aligment = Mystic Knight
Evil Aligment = Death Knight
Selfish go either way...

Huh? Aren't good knights the knights of the white rose and the evil guys mystic knights?

Not really.

You can be a good mystic knight and not be a member of the white rose, and nothing says a white rose MK has to be good. WR is an organization.

True. While many of the Knights of the White Rose are good, there are some (more than you would think) that aren't. While some disagreed with the Order of the Mystic Knights and their evil tactics, others just thought that siding with the knights of the White Rose would be more profitable, or were running from something, etc. As dark brandon said, the white rose is an organization, and not all of them follow the same strict code of ethics as some of the others. Miscreant and Aberrant alignments would probably be most common.

Text as written says that the order makes sure there are no evil members for KOWR

csbioborg · Unread post by **csbioborg** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:36 am

Balabanto wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:
dark brandon wrote:
Burulovesyou wrote:
TechnoGothic wrote:I use Cyber-knight as per RUE/SoT4...

As for Mystic Knights...
Good Aligment = Mystic Knight
Evil Aligment = Death Knight
Selfish go either way...

Huh? Aren't good knights the knights of the white rose and the evil guys mystic knights?

Not really.

You can be a good mystic knight and not be a member of the white rose, and nothing says a white rose MK has to be good. WR is an organization.

True. While many of the Knights of the White Rose are good, there are some (more than you would think) that aren't. While some disagreed with the Order of the Mystic Knights and their evil tactics, others just thought that siding with the knights of the White Rose would be more profitable, or were running from something, etc. As dark brandon said, the white rose is an organization, and not all of them follow the same strict code of ethics as some of the others. Miscreant and Aberrant alignments would probably be most common.

Text as written says that the order makes sure there are no evil members for KOWR

that is what I thought it says could you quote me that line from the OCC descption
that says that.

dark brandon · Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:38 am

Balabanto wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:
dark brandon wrote:
Burulovesyou wrote:
TechnoGothic wrote:I use Cyber-knight as per RUE/SoT4...

As for Mystic Knights...
Good Aligment = Mystic Knight
Evil Aligment = Death Knight
Selfish go either way...

Huh? Aren't good knights the knights of the white rose and the evil guys mystic knights?

Not really.

You can be a good mystic knight and not be a member of the white rose, and nothing says a white rose MK has to be good. WR is an organization.

True. While many of the Knights of the White Rose are good, there are some (more than you would think) that aren't. While some disagreed with the Order of the Mystic Knights and their evil tactics, others just thought that siding with the knights of the White Rose would be more profitable, or were running from something, etc. As dark brandon said, the white rose is an organization, and not all of them follow the same strict code of ethics as some of the others. Miscreant and Aberrant alignments would probably be most common.

Text as written says that the order makes sure there are no evil members for KOWR

It probably falls on the same line that MK have, that says there are no good members. While training you probably are a good character, but after that (after 1st) your alignment can change based on decitions and circumstances.

Temporalmage · Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:04 pm

Burulovesyou wrote:
dark brandon wrote:I'd like to know if MK energy resistance powers confir to their armor in writing.

Or hell, impervious to energy in general!

Niether applies to armor. For a full referance refer to the topic being discussed in the Psionic & Magic forum.

dark brandon · Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:27 pm

Temporalmage wrote:
Burulovesyou wrote:
dark brandon wrote:I'd like to know if MK energy resistance powers confir to their armor in writing.

Or hell, impervious to energy in general!

Niether applies to armor. For a full referance refer to the topic being discussed in the Psionic & Magic forum.

I did. Both sides made very good points.

gaaahhhh · Unread post by **gaaahhhh** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:06 am

Hey, if it's on the internet, it must be true.

Temporalmage · Unread post by **Temporalmage** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:48 pm

Burulovesyou wrote:Still would like to see it in writing, if only to end the debate for good

You should keep checking on the Psionics and Magic forum.

Misfit KotLD · Unread post by **Misfit KotLD** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:33 pm

Temporalmage wrote:
Burulovesyou wrote:Still would like to see it in writing, if only to end the debate for good
You should keep checking on the Psionics and Magic forum.

I believe he means in canon.

Temporalmage · Unread post by **Temporalmage** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:56 pm

Burulovesyou wrote:
Misfit KotLD wrote:
Temporalmage wrote:
Burulovesyou wrote:Still would like to see it in writing, if only to end the debate for good
You should keep checking on the Psionics and Magic forum.
I believe he means in canon.

Yeah... Thought that was apparent but ah well. Still would like to see it in writing in the BOOKS. Better? No amount of arguing from players is going to end a debate for good

Amen.

runebeo · Unread post by **runebeo** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:55 am

With the Cyber-Knight's psi-sword being so much weaker than a true psi-sword wouldn't make sense for them to seek out Amaki TW Psi-Blade? Couldn't a techno-wizard be able to reproduce a few copies for theses famed champions? I can't see them making any game unbalanced since there's a laser sword in one of the newer books that deal 5D6 M.D. add in the +1D6 from fencing for 6D6. I still rather use a rifle to blast from a good distance, but there should be some advantages for the risk of getting so near the enemy other than saving money on E-Clips.

rat_bastard · Unread post by **rat_bastard** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:18 am

runebeo wrote:With the Cyber-Knight's psi-sword being so much weaker than a true psi-sword wouldn't make sense for them to seek out Amaki TW Psi-Blade? Couldn't a techno-wizard be able to reproduce a few copies for theses famed champions? I can't see them making any game unbalanced since there's a laser sword in one of the newer books that deal 5D6 M.D. add in the +1D6 from fencing for 6D6. I still rather use a rifle to blast from a good distance, but there should be some advantages for the risk of getting so near the enemy other than saving money on E-Clips.

On the Amaki psi-blade issue:
sure, if a Cyber knight can get his hand on one or two he's gonna brag to his other cyber knight pals and they are all gonna want one. However its not as easy you would think. The Amaki Psi-tech is not a techno wizard, he's close but he is not a techno wizard, and while his abilities work as an interesting counterpoint they are pretty much exclusive to a small part of south america.

that said, you can get a TW to bang something out with the Power Weapon spell, and I do plan on including that in a listing of Cyber knight equipment.

rat_bastard · Unread post by **rat_bastard** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:33 am

RockJock wrote:The biggest question that always comes up with my group is how do you deal with CKs from races with natural psychics. It is mentioned in the later CK versions, but doesn't always match up to NPCS that are in writing.

We have never really had issues with Mystic Knights, but I usually play them as an evil force. We just haven't had the White Rose pop up as more then rumor.

Very good, I have to think on this but don't expect NPCs to conform to nay sort of canon, there is allot of GM and player tinkering in any combination and its probably impossible to make a smooth set of rules unless you want a 300 page book of this is how each race would be statted as a Cyber knight.

dark brandon wrote:I'd like to know if MK energy resistance powers confir to their armor in writing.

This is definatly gonna be answered in writing along with "does energy resistance work on a psi-sword?"

Rogue_Scientist wrote:Also, given that cyber armor (the CK version) is a living armor after level 3, how would you interpret the spell Lifeward to work on it?

I'll look into it.

Burulovesyou wrote:I'd like to know if cyber-knights with more than two arms, such as rahu-men (etc.), would be able to create more than two psi-weapons eventually. I've heard arguments for it, cannon suggests otherwise in that it only states two but it also doesn't take into account strange races for a few things, such as the cyber armor.

Since I can only think of one multiple armed critter that can have psionics (no Snelling cyber knight for me) this one may be answerable, it may result in four diminished psi-swords though.

The Galactus Kid · Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:49 am

rat_bastard wrote:
Burulovesyou wrote:I'd like to know if cyber-knights with more than two arms, such as rahu-men (etc.), would be able to create more than two psi-weapons eventually. I've heard arguments for it, cannon suggests otherwise in that it only states two but it also doesn't take into account strange races for a few things, such as the cyber armor.

Since I can only think of one multiple armed critter that can have psionics (no Snelling cyber knight for me) this one may be answerable, it may result in four diminished psi-swords though.

I wouldn't personally diminish the swords, but I would clarify how paired weapons with multiple arms works.

Balabanto · Unread post by **Balabanto** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:50 am

rat_bastard wrote:
runebeo wrote:With the Cyber-Knight's psi-sword being so much weaker than a true psi-sword wouldn't make sense for them to seek out Amaki TW Psi-Blade? Couldn't a techno-wizard be able to reproduce a few copies for theses famed champions? I can't see them making any game unbalanced since there's a laser sword in one of the newer books that deal 5D6 M.D. add in the +1D6 from fencing for 6D6. I still rather use a rifle to blast from a good distance, but there should be some advantages for the risk of getting so near the enemy other than saving money on E-Clips.

On the Amaki psi-blade issue:
sure, if a Cyber knight can get his hand on one or two he's gonna brag to his other cyber knight pals and they are all gonna want one. However its not as easy you would think. The Amaki Psi-tech is not a techno wizard, he's close but he is not a techno wizard, and while his abilities work as an interesting counterpoint they are pretty much exclusive to a small part of south america.

that said, you can get a TW to bang something out with the Power Weapon spell, and I do plan on including that in a listing of Cyber knight equipment.

It does not matter what the Amaki is.

This is a TW item. The text says so.

Misfit KotLD · Unread post by **Misfit KotLD** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:47 am

Balabanto wrote:It does not matter what the Amaki is.

This is a TW item. The text says so.

I may have missed it, but explain how it's getting from the tip of South America to North America, please.

Balabanto · Unread post by **Balabanto** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:10 am

All it takes is one Ley Line Walker, or another character that can phase between nexuses.

The problem is that it says in the description of the item that some Cyberknights already have these things.

I would think it's because they have allies who are True Atlanteans and are willing to go get some, but that's just a guess.

Misfit KotLD · Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:38 am

Maybe, but I'd rule very few CKs have them and few know where to get them.

Balabanto · Unread post by **Balabanto** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:31 pm

The thing is, all cyberknights work on word of mouth, and this book is dated 105 P.A. So effectively, that's four years of word of mouth. I really don't care if PC's add another 2d6 to their psi sword damage. At low levels, the damage isn't as good as a JA-12, which you can get in chargen, and at high levels, it's just another 2d6. So what? If the item added 10d6, I would be like "Stop this. Hell no." But it's really not that big a deal.

Misfit KotLD · Unread post by **Misfit KotLD** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:20 pm

It's not the damage, it's the fact that the item comes from across the globe.

Temporalmage · Unread post by **Temporalmage** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:32 pm

Misfit KotLD wrote:It's not the damage, it's the fact that the item comes from across the globe.

Durring the Tolkeen war the Tolkenites scoured the Megaverse looking for weapons and allies to help against the CS. Seems that if they looked all over the Megaverse they could have easily found somthing as close as South America.

Seneca · Unread post by **Seneca** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:40 am

The Rahu-man case brings up an age old problem for me. A defininete projection of how becoming a Cyber-knight affects D-bees RCC's innate powers, like psionics, would be nice. The SoT: 4 says: D'norr, Noli, Quick-flex, and Psi Stalkers ARE cyber-knights and give a percentage breakdown of the D-bees in the fellowship.

Now how does being a Cyber-knight affect a RCC's? I understand years of training allow Quick-flex Aliens, and other naturally non-psionic RCC's, to form a psi-sword and shield. What about the psi-heavy RCC's that have natural psionics or other innate powers like the Psi Stalker? Do they lose these natural powers in becoming a Cyber-knight?

TechnoGothic · Unread post by **TechnoGothic** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:12 pm

Zerebus wrote:There are two Cyber-Knight variations in the Arzno worldbook that pique my interest.

1. There's a Rahu-Man Cyber-Knight in Arzno and the aforementioned R.C.C. does allow the class so there's nothing overtly strange about it. In addition, the Arzno character seems to be a good reference for Cyber-Armor on four armed giants. However, we currently lack generalized rules for Cyber-Armor on non-standard bodies (giant, tiny, more than two arms, arms with extra length or joints, tentacles, extra legs, centaur style bodies, wings, etc).

2. There's a Native American Cyber-Knight in Arzno who rejects all the tech-using aspects of the class, but not the Zen anti-tech combat skill. A low-tech version of the Cyber-Knight class would be nice to see.

Also the Native American CK in the book has the Native American OCC Mystic Warrior OCC abilties of Psi-tomahawk and Psi-Spear, etc...but she is list just as a CK and not a dual occ character.