Disarming...

[Shadowfyr]

An interesting thing popped up when my bro and friend were just battling their characters for fun..

Can someone disarm a person who is wielding 1. a Psi Sword 2. LightBlade?

Cause we found that its for said person, but can someone make a disarm roll and make a person desummon either one of those particular "swords" since they can't physically drop it.


Any help would be greatly appreciated so we can prepare this for the weekend ahead.

[Neorealist]

No, a person cannot be disarmed for either of those effects. (though i suppose you could technically knock it away, but your psychic/mage can just will it back with a thought for the duration of the psi/spell)

[Shadowfyr]

not to be an ass, but is that canon? If so can i haz the page number..

in my group i play in, when things like this come up we have to refer to the book and not to the forums when trying to come to a consensus

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I'm going to say no. There is no official statement it cannot be disarmed (that I can see), but I do have a reason for suggesting such.

1) Psi-Sword: Okay, I'm going to reference Palladium Fantasy Main Book, page 178, end of the first full paragraph on the page. "If the psychic is knocked unconscious, the weapon disappears. Likewise, the character can willingly dispel the weapon with a thought <snip>; it cannot be given to another." I'll note, the end of that one is not listed in Rifts GM Guide, and not sure why. But it is in the PF main book. Now, here, it mentions two very specific ways to get rid of the weapon (and of course duration) and also mentions it cannot be given to anyone else. If indeed it could be disarmed then it should be able to be used by another. Disarmed, knocked to the ground, someone comes along and picks it up but can't use it? I don't follow that one, so I'd have to believe it couldn't be disarmed in the first place.

2) Lightblade: I'm using Rifts Book of Magic, page 117 (good number), second column. "The blade is weightless, serves as an extension of the sorcerer ..." and "... only the spell caster can use the Lightblade he creates." This one mentions it being an extension of the sorcerer. I don't think it could be disarmed any easier than you could disarm the extension of the wrist: The hand. Meaning if you want to get rid of the weapon you need to get rid of the limb holding it. Similarly, it also mentions the note about no one else being able to use it (see above for reasoning on that).

All right, that's at least the way I read it, with some book information to help back up my theory. Some may disagree, find some passage in a different book, interpret something a different way, but that's the way I see it. I hope that helps and if not then sorry for wasting your time. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Shadowfyr]

Nice i appreciate the thought you put into this. Now im not going to contest what you typed as it makes sense. But i have something to toss in there to think of as well.

Okay as you made mention each of these are essentially "an extension of the user" , ok np. And we all know that these weapons attack as a tangible substance. So the way i was thinking of how this type of disarm would work would be that it doesnt drop it but essentially "Desummoning" said weapon.

To elaborate; Attacker using the disarm attacks a person wielding either lightblade or Psi sword. Since the move works to knock the weapon (physical ones) out of the hand of the user, why couldnt a person use a disarm to knock the weapon out of hand and essentially breaking the link to the user and making the weapon desummon? I mean its still the same move just instead of the defenders weapon dropping to the ground it just dissipates and the defender will have to conjure/create a new one to continue similar attacks.

How about that way? SInce as you pointed out it doesnt mention anything of this sort in the books.
Just an interesting take on what you said already.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Well, I don't have any new book references on this one, but I'll address it from what I've already said added with my personal impression. I'd have to say it still couldn't be disarmed. It mentions two ways to dispell the item (knocking out, or the individual intentionally canceling it). These are not ordinary weapons, so while they have a physical aspect I'd say they can't be disarmed the same. I'll try to explain why though.

1) The line "an extension of the user" could mean that it's closer to an arm. If someone throws a punch, physical or not, can it be disarmed? I'd say no. Of course, this could just be the metaphorical extension that some trained professionals think of with weapons. However, psychics and mages, in general, are not these trained warriors. In my personal belief, the fact that it's being held is nothing but a focus point for the user. Even if the character had no hand I'd likely let them use a Lightblade or Psi-Sword, as if extending from the missing limb (kind of like a pirate's hook, just as a semi-visual). Now, if the character was holding it, and then the whole hand was cut off, well, I'd say that is at least enough of a disruption (the entire focus point has been removed and not to mention the pain).

2) These are magic or psychic weapons. Now a normal fighter can be disarmed, true enough. And he can just as easily draw another weapon, pick one up somewhere else, or several other options. On the other hand, the option here is to only summon an entirely new weapon. The Lightblade is going to cost more P.P.E. and costs ... um ... at least 2 actions to summon? It's a level 6 or 7 spell (too lazy to get my book) and I'm not up to date on the casting times these days. A mind mage (mind melter) would need to spend a full melee round getting a new psi-sword, and a decent chunk of I.S.P. While true, both the psychic and the mage could resort to other abilities as well, in general they are not the fighters (I know someone could design one as a fighter) and making these talents able to be disarmed could make them far more useless. Maybe I'm exaggerating (okay, I am), but hopefully the point I'm making is at least clear.

3) There are ways mentioned to dispell it, disarming isn't one of them (though that could just be an oversight admittedly). Knocking out the person or just time elapsing, not to mention there are things like anti-magic cloud or negate magic (probably don't want to use it on a Lightblade because they're expensive, I know, but just to show vulnerabilities) and other options to use.

Okay, I'm tired, and maybe I didn't express those as clearly as I could have. Hopefully I did a fair enough job though. My opinion is they can't be disarmed, though if I was the player and the GM ruled it could be disarmed I'd at least be able to see his case and not argue about it (not saying agree, but I could at least see what he's saying). A lot of this is going to be just opinion. Hopefully it helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Damian Magecraft]

not to complicate matters but...
here is an interesting thought...
can the psionic power Catatonic Strike (PFMB pg.173) be used in conjunction with the psi-sword or light blade?
how about telekinesis?
Dragons and Gods introduces a race of dragons (the Ultican pg.45) that exhibit all 3 abilities yet lack the limbs required to wield said psychic/magic weapons...
another odd question...
forget about the psi/magic blade business... TK + a physical sword... is it possible to disarm or be disarmed? Can/should any WP. bonuses apply to TK sword techniques (or other melee weapons for that matter) for races (such as the Ultican) that lack physical means to wield them?

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I'll try to answer the questions to the best of my ability (though I'll note I have had off the whole week for holiday break, so my mind has been shutting down more and more as I just slack off ).

can the psionic power Catatonic Strike (PFMB pg.173) be used in conjunction with the psi-sword or light blade?

If they're physical and bladed, I don't see why not.

how about telekinesis?

The range is touch ... touch through a weapon to stab, but still considered touch. Though if the GM allows all other "touch" range abilities (spells and/or psionics) to be carried out through telekinesis or other ranged techniques then I suppose this would get included as well. I don't agree personally though.

forget about the psi/magic blade business... TK + a physical sword... is it possible to disarm or be disarmed?

I would say not, unless the other person can match the force (such as using equal or more telekinetic force), but this wouldn't be so much disarming as it is using brute force (even if the force is generated from the mind) to pull the weapon free. Some people may think of it as a mental hand controlling the object, in which case there is no reason to not disarm it. However, I don't see anything really backing up it's just a mental hand holding the objects (if that is the case I'd consider it more of a variant of ectoplasm than its own power). I'm not quite sure how to describe what I'm thinking of Telekinesis as, but it is different. I guess I view trying to disarm telekinesis would be like trying to disarm a wizard's familiar. No, telekinesis is not the same as a familiar, but just giving an analogy of why it wouldn't work. Telekinesis isn't a familiar, but I think of it as more than just an invisible hand.

Can/should any WP. bonuses apply to TK sword techniques (or other melee weapons for that matter) for races (such as the Ultican) that lack physical means to wield them?

By the rules? No such thing allowing it that I am aware of. Mark Hall does have a Combat Telekinesis power in Rifter 44, but still not quite what I think you mean (it's just a variant power, and doesn't include weapon proficiencies that I am aware of). Personally, I think it should be allowed, but as a separate skill. So someone with telekinesis trains hard to use a sword with telekinesis, I believe there should be improvement, but it is still a separate skill from learning to use a sword in hand to hand combat. Possibly the weapon proficiency bonuses cut in half, but I haven't ever really tried it, nor do I know anyone who has to know if that is necessary or not.

All right, I think that's all from me for now. Most of this doesn't have actual book support (except Catatonic Strike range), but the books really only can go so far. Hopefully some of that helped, or at least gave you something to think about. If not, then sorry for wasting your time. Please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Shadowfyr]

Hey damian. with ur TK vs Physical sword thing.

I think this is actually an actual action. I think the user of TK roughly uses enough strength to beat the users turning it into a strength check roll if the disarm roll was made..

Now while i think that is right im not entirely sure since im at work and have 0 books near me.