Critical Body/Flip Throws

[Jefffar]

CRITICAL BODY FLIP/THROW (NEW!): Characters with Critical Body Flip/Throw can do Critical Strikes by rolling certain Natural number(s). A natural strike roll is one without bonuses. NOTE: Critical Body/Flip Throws never happen during Automatic Body Flip/Throws. The critical body flip is an attack, the automatic body flip is a defensive move. A character can do one or the other, not both.

Myself and some other players were having a disagreement about how this ability worked, and I'd like some input from our Martial Arts RPG fans.

One of us thinks that this ability means that you get a free attempt at a Body Flip/Throw if you roll a critical strike.

Another of us thought that it meant you could do critical damage on your defensive Body Flip/Throws (but this was definitely disproved by the text above).

Finally, yet another of us thought that you can't have a critical strike with a Body Flip/Throw unless you have this ability. Then your Body Flip/Throw will benefit from critical strike rules as normal.

What say you?

[filo_clarke]

I have always maintained that the Critical Body Flip/Throw simply dealt double damage when used as an attack, but in the event of a Natural 20 (or whatever the character's Critical number is) it dealt further damage (x3 or x4 depending on your interpretation of stacking Critical multipliers).

So: a Martial Artist with regular Body Flip/Throw would deal 1D6 damage on a successfull attack roll (plus the penalties inflicted upon the target for being on the ground). Or 2D6 if the attacker happens to roll a Natural 20.

A Martial Artist with Critical Body Flip/Throw would deal 2D6 damage using the same tactic. Or potentially 3D6 on the roll of a Natural 20.

If the Martial Artist also possessed Auto Body Flip/Throw then when defending against an attack he could 1) perform an Auto Body Flip, inflicting 1D6 damage OR 2) perform a simultaneous attack using Critical Body Flip, inflicting 2D6 damage, but potentially taking some damage himself.

For the record I do not believe that a Martial Artist with Critical Body Flip/Throw would get a free attempt with this maneuver when he rolls a Critical. Nor do I believe that a person with the normal Body Flip/Throw would be unable to inflict double damage from the roll of a Critical. If someone rolls Natural 20, it inflicts double damage, regardless if they have the variant maneuver or not.

[Nekira Sudacne]

it means that, if you have it, all body flipthrows are automatically critical hits.

[Vidynn]

it means that, if you have it, all body flipthrows are automatically critical hits.

..."by rolling certain Natural number(s)"

- what about that, than?

[green.nova343]

it means that, if you have it, all body flipthrows are automatically critical hits.

..."by rolling certain Natural number(s)"

- what about that, than?

It means that, if you're using Body Flip/Throw as your attack move, then it's only a critical strike (i.e. x2 damage) if you also have the Critical Flip/Throw ability. Otherwise, rolling a natural 20 strike roll on your body flip/throw doesn't do any additional damage.

[Jefffar]

It means that, if you're using Body Flip/Throw as your attack move, then it's only a critical strike (i.e. x2 damage) if you also have the Critical Flip/Throw ability. Otherwise, rolling a natural 20 strike roll on your body flip/throw doesn't do any additional damage.

This interpretation is growing on me a fair bit.

[Mantisking]

Last I checked, if a style had Critical BF/T then it also had target natural numbers in the Level Advancement Bonuses. If there are no target natural numbers, then the default is always 20.

Remember, a Natural 20 is always a Natural 20.

[Neorealist]

What say you?

Well since you asked...

I'm of the opinion that it seems to allow you to do critical damage with your (attack version only) body-flip/throws.

I'm also of the opinion that this is lame; since every other attack i can think of benefits from rolling a 'critical strike' automatically without the requirement of an additional alternate ability specifically unlocking such.

I'm growing increasingly fond of the interpretation that it renders each and every bodyflip throw attack you do as a critical strike. A virtual "power body/flip throw", if you prefer (along the same lines as having deathblow() allows you to 'call' a deathblow) since it otherwise only grants you an ability you already have by virtue of the critical hit rules anyway.

[green.nova343]

I think everyone is over-complicating this argument really. If you read the special attack notes on which styles actually get Critical Body Flip/Throw, it comes down to the following list: Aikido, Bok Pai, Hwang-Do, Sumo, and Yu-Sool. Of these, only Aikido has a listing for Critical Body Flip/Throw on Natural 18-20, because with the exception of the Knife Hand Knock-Out, the style doesn't have any offensive attacks. So therefore, it's my conjecture that the Critical Body Flip/Throw is no different than a regular Critical Strike simply because the other styles have a regular Critical Strike because they have other striking attacks as part of the style.

No, the greater mystery is what "+2 to Body Flip/Throw" is supposed to mean and how it's applied.

The interpretation that I'm starting to lean toward is that it's an additional bonus added to the regular bonus.

For example, say you have a +4 strike bonus, a +5 parry/dodge bonus, & a +2 body flip bonus. If you just try punching or kicking your opponent, the +4 strike bonus applies. Iff you go over, grab your opponent & flip him across them room, though, you get a +6 bonus: +4 strike and additional +2 for flips. Same thing on defense: just trying to dodge has a +5 bonus, but using Body Flip/Throw as a defensive move gets a +7 bonus (+5 dodge with additional +2 from body flip/throw).

I'd also recommend a similar method for the Disarm technique; possibly Entangle as well, although I'm not 100% sure on that one yet.

[Damian Magecraft]

I think everyone is over-complicating this argument really. If you read the special attack notes on which styles actually get Critical Body Flip/Throw, it comes down to the following list: Aikido, Bok Pai, Hwang-Do, Sumo, and Yu-Sool. Of these, only Aikido has a listing for Critical Body Flip/Throw on Natural 18-20, because with the exception of the Knife Hand Knock-Out, the style doesn't have any offensive attacks. So therefore, it's my conjecture that the Critical Body Flip/Throw is no different than a regular Critical Strike simply because the other styles have a regular Critical Strike because they have other striking attacks as part of the style.

No, the greater mystery is what "+2 to Body Flip/Throw" is supposed to mean and how it's applied.

The interpretation that I'm starting to lean toward is that it's an additional bonus added to the regular bonus.

For example, say you have a +4 strike bonus, a +5 parry/dodge bonus, & a +2 body flip bonus. If you just try punching or kicking your opponent, the +4 strike bonus applies. Iff you go over, grab your opponent & flip him across them room, though, you get a +6 bonus: +4 strike and additional +2 for flips. Same thing on defense: just trying to dodge has a +5 bonus, but using Body Flip/Throw as a defensive move gets a +7 bonus (+5 dodge with additional +2 from body flip/throw).

I'd also recommend a similar method for the Disarm technique; possibly Entangle as well, although I'm not 100% sure on that one yet.

I would allow this only if the strike/parry/dodge bonus is from purely from the characters PP.
otherwise the throw becomes easier to preforml than the other strikes/parries/dodges the Martial Art provides and unless this happens to be focus of the art form throws are not easier...
The forms I have studied throws were not the focus (yes we were taught a handful) punches, kicks, and block & counter techniques were the focus (these I can execute with ease and precision; sweeps and throws not so much.)