Survival: More than just hoarding ammunition

[csbioborg]

I have a few thosand iodine tablets for the short run (they were on sale) mostly you can just put a big bottle of nonpotable water stick a tube to it connectit to another bottle and the water will eventually flow clean to the other

I know bascailly all the local fruits I can eat in san diego

and where I can fish pretty well

Realistically I think me and a group could surivve if out on in the pacifc if we survived the intial outbreak

a friend of mine own a small cormmercial fishing boat

[csbioborg]

Urine still falls under the category of solar still, but I would prefer to use foliage before I tried pee

Also if you have access to fruit you can get a pretty good ration of water just from eating juicy fruit. Good call. A friend and I were stuck in Ocatillo wells (pretty much on the mexico border) once for several hours when his truck broke down in 113 degree temperature after going out four wheeling. We had no water.

needless to say, we were hurting but we had picked up a baby watermelon from a local fruit stand and it contained enough water to hold us over.

Fruit is a great way to fight off thrust, I also just remembered something that is also kinda on the eck side, water enema. You can will stick a hose up your corn hole and just flush some up there. (of course the idea for the show Survivor man.)

In califonira there is a plant that loks exactly like hemlock that you can chew on for water its not eatable but indians used to get water all the time

[csbioborg]

I have a few thosand iodine tablets for the short run (they were on sale) mostly you can just put a big bottle of nonpotable water stick a tube to it connectit to another bottle and the water will eventually flow clean to the other

I know bascailly all the local fruits I can eat in san diego

The fruits in San Diego won't last long, friend. Without proper irrigation and field workers it will only be a matter of weeks before it's all gone, not to mention other looters.

I'm not talking about the farmed fruits I'm talking about the fruit from the cacti and the other indigenious flora

and I gurantee most people didn't grow up in those canyons knwoing what could be eaten and what can't be there are

[csbioborg]

honestly if you make it to the beach you would be amzed at the amount of shell fish that can be eaten living right be the rocks

I mean you could go aftr posum and rattlers to but odds are you are going to be eating seafood and fruits


btw sea weed is mostly eatable btw

well I just realized that I could hunt the seals and sea lions pretty easily by the coast

[Razzinold]

I would hit up a pharmacy, grab all the pills I could, like pain killers, antibiotics, asprin, maybe appetite suppresion ? all that kinda stuff. In addition to bandages and things like that. Don't get me wrong water is good and all, but not so helpfull if you manage to get a nasty cut and nothing to disenfect it with. How about Costco or something like that ? you could get food, water, medical supplies, clothing, etc all in one place, no searching around. Another possible overlooked place, factories, I work in a textile factory for example, take material to keep warm. take stuff out of the fridge, break into the supply room for the stuff that goes in the vending machines, people might rob the vending machines but might not think of breaking down the door of a locked store room

[velcRomanceR]

Most people are going to scavenge the obvious: grocery, department, and convenience stores. I would shy away from these places unless I knew without a doubt it was a sure thing. The only thing worse than fighting a zombie is fighting a hungry/thirsty human in a post-apocalyptic world gone (un)dead.

I would search out the distributors of snacks, jerky, and non-perishable foods. I would search out the storing bins for these foods.
I would head to the water-marts, where you can go to refill water jugs.

I would try to find an amicable group to join and then kick it.

[Nxla666]

The plan I have with my wife and kids is pretty extensive, we have the list of things we need to grab and the list of things we already have, as well as the list of people we would try to save.

Places to go are already planned and any rendevous areas in case we are seperated.

Equipment and vital skills are as covered as possible, and books on various subjects have already been bought.

Everyone has undergone at least cursory weapons training (firearms and more primitve ones) and at least some basic hand to hand skills.

And this isnt including the sub-plans for different types of emergencies, this is just the "Oh, crap we need to leave because X thing has happened" basic catch all plan.

[Spinachcat]

Food won't be an issue for several years. Stores are packed with cans and sealed bottles that will easily last 5 years. Remember that so much of the population will be zombies that there will be a far lower percentage of people seeking out food. Considering the country is overflowing with stores and warehouses, food and bottled water is plentiful. This country has plenty of rivers, lakes and streams. If you can make a fire, you can boil water into drinkable water easily. Beyond 5 years, the canned food becomes less and less reliable and there won't be much.

I would never abandon cars because high speed is a phenomenal weapon against flesh bags on foot. Get a caravan of cars with cow-catchers mounted to the front and several shooters per car. In the first year, most every abandoned car will have several gallons sitting in their tank and it would not be hard to rig a suction device to pump gas out of powerless gas stations.

Also, don't count out electrical devices. We know how to make electricity from many sources and that ingenuity will go to work very quickly once any kind of "safe zone" is set up. As for the Pacific and Atlantic coast, we have plenty of small islands up and down the coastline and we have plenty of access to solar power devices. These islands could become refuges for the living who then raid the zombie cities for supplies. Electricity is too important to our civilization to simply let it go. Finding new ways to make some juice will be a high priority.

I don't think there will be much boredom. Surviving takes a lot of work and involves far more physical labor than 90% of Americans do any day so when work is done, they will be ready to crash and sleep.

[khyron1144]

This thread has got me thinking:

I have almost nothing to offer in a post-apocalyptic sitaution.

I've worked as a fast food cashier and a bus boy. And as personal gopher to a witch, which did teach me a few things, like thinking on my feet and that raking a yard is a lot less unpleasant than I thought it would be.

Most of my schooling seems to have prepared me to be an essayist. I can also do decent at most basic arithmetic, as long as I have pencil and paper.

One of the things I do well is wash dishes. I look at the way other people "wash dishes" at the fast food places I work and say, "If you wash dishes like that at home, I'm never going to your house for dinner."

I am decently strong, last I tried to do any sort of measurement of such things, I could bench at least 100 pounds and that's just what I felt comfortable with, not really trying to find and push my limit. And more or less able-bodied. I do have troubles with the manual dexterity/ fine motor skills and eye-hand coordination. I'm also near-sighted.
I can walk five miles without feeling a need to whine about it, unlike some people I know.

[csbioborg]

food really isn't a issue in Califonira we have so many mule deer running around

and we don't have that many compared to most of the country

[csbioborg]

What will you do IF the zombies eat all of the animals?

I know what native plants I can live off

and living by the beach I know what sea life I can eat as well

[sHaka]

Sounds silly, but don't forget your toothbrush - oral abscesses can eventually kill.

Especially if your diet changes to sugary, processed food raided from supermarkets.

[Spinachcat]

Now think what you will, but it is my opinion that it is a very bad idea to be in the same place as everyone else during a mass panic like this. In times of extreme emergency (and directly correlating with the sharp decline of authoritative presence) people get exponentially dumber and more irrational the more of them you stick together in one group.

Absolutely correct. However, most of the population is crowded in urban or suburban areas. So even if someone wanted to escape to the wilderness, most people would have to travel through a lot of concrete jungles to get there.

I like your island idea, but I'm going to have to pass on the electricity. Nobody is sure whether or not zombies can travel underwater.

Even if they can walk underwater, they are rotting flesh in an environment full of scavengers. Now it may be possible that these Zoms are magical and their flesh repulses even the most basic scavenger organism. Of course, the water pressure from the depth is going to wreck havoc on their muscles and bones.

Of course, shore patrol would be a 24 hour duty for the survivors. One would hope that without commercial fishing, the shark population would increase and in a few years, you would have a shark buffer.

Light may attract zombies. Zombies attract more zombies.

True. But that goes for every campfire.

[velcRomanceR]

This thread has got me thinking:

I have almost nothing to offer in a post-apocalyptic sitaution.

I've worked as a fast food cashier and a bus boy. And as personal gopher to a witch, which did teach me a few things, like thinking on my feet and that raking a yard is a lot less unpleasant than I thought it would be.

Most of my schooling seems to have prepared me to be an essayist. I can also do decent at most basic arithmetic, as long as I have pencil and paper.

One of the things I do well is wash dishes. I look at the way other people "wash dishes" at the fast food places I work and say, "If you wash dishes like that at home, I'm never going to your house for dinner."

I am decently strong, last I tried to do any sort of measurement of such things, I could bench at least 100 pounds and that's just what I felt comfortable with, not really trying to find and push my limit. And more or less able-bodied. I do have troubles with the manual dexterity/ fine motor skills and eye-hand coordination. I'm also near-sighted.
I can walk five miles without feeling a need to whine about it, unlike some people I know.

Unfortunately, there is no need to wash dishes in a post-apocalyptic RPG world. I do not have any memory whatsoever, when I gamemastered, when I said, "Alright, you're in a kitchen. The dishes are filthy. They look as if they've been washed by a fast food attendent. 60/40 chance, you're the high side, that the zombies will wait while anyone in the group chooses to do those disgusting dishes. Hey, I rolled an eighteen. The zeds will wait."

The best side of your diatribe is You know your strengths. This puts you a notch above those whacks who were caught and bitten.

[khyron1144]

Unfortunately, there is no need to wash dishes in a post-apocalyptic RPG world. I do not have any memory whatsoever, when I gamemastered, when I said, "Alright, you're in a kitchen. The dishes are filthy. They look as if they've been washed by a fast food attendent. 60/40 chance, you're the high side, that the zombies will wait while anyone in the group chooses to do those disgusting dishes. Hey, I rolled an eighteen. The zeds will wait."

The best side of your diatribe is You know your strengths. This puts you a notch above those whacks who were caught and bitten.

I agree, but a thought did strike me:

Assuming you find or catch food in a post-apocalypse world, what do you eat it off of, out of, or with? How long does everybody's mess kit stay sanitary enough to eat with? How do you clean it up again with no reliable hot running water? Where do you acquire dish soap or any other kind of soap for that matter?

Reminds me of something I saw in the comic book series Y The Last Man: Yorick, the last living man on Earth noticed that stores still had shelves full of edible canned goods but absolutely empty HBA (Health & Beauty Aids) sections. One of his companions pointed out that the women forming a new civilization can always grow more food, but Vidal Sassoon just became an all-time rare one-of-a-kind collector's item.

[Misfit KotLD]

Do not forget the importance of alcohol. No, not to drink, though it can be used for barter with those who would. But as an antiseptic and in making Molotov cocktails, both of which are invaluable when the zombies come calling.

[Misfit KotLD]

I had mentioned brewing beer in another thread for use in trade, but I hadn't given any thought to alcohol as a weapon. Good call, although I'm leery about the idea of walking torches near my home

Just remember to make your molotovs from the high test stuff.

[khyron1144]

Fresh and Clean underwear will be worth ten times it weight in gold.

Considering the negligible weight of undies, and that gold is going to be just a malleable, pretty, shiny heavy metal, I'd say that clean undies could become worth millions of times their weight in gold.


Going back to the point of raiding office buildings for supplies because they're not as likely to be picked clean:

While people are obviously going to loot gorcery stores, multi-purpose department stores (especially those with major gorcery sectons), and possibly electronics stores, hardware stores, and sporting goods stores; what happens to Toys 'R Us?

I think it's likely to remain mostly unmolested. A good toystore, especially Toys 'R Us, has candy, not a good substitute for real food for long, but still some calories and bulk to make your belly feel full. Also, although almost everything is Nerf foam things these days, maybe there's a good aluminum bat or two to use as improvised weapons.

[GreenGhost]

Instructions:

1) Take two sips.

2) One more, time permitting.

3) Stuff and light the rag.

[Tricky]

Wow, some well thought out ideas here. Similar threads on IMDB:NotLD and other zombie films seem to forget that you may need to EAT everyonce in a while, you might get sick, and maybe you might have to trade with people you can't shoot.

I've read the Zombie Survival Guide (if you haven't get it now!), as well as a book to prepare me for Y2K (you'd be surprised at how much they overlap), and I can tell you that many of you guys are on the right page for alot of this stuff.
One idea I had pre-Y2K was getting some trade goods. 2 that came to mind were chocolate and cigarettes! A Pack of Marlboro's might get you what you need, and chocolate might 'grease the wheels' if you need to sweet talk someone. (haha, pun)

The good news (might be the only good news) in a Dead Reign like situation, is that with so many dead intitally, there would be lots of product in the stores. Of course, those dead are now walking around IN the stores, but hey, if it wouldn't be exciting if there wasn't some risk. But in the more traditional zombie like scenerios, there would probably be looting, as well as some problems getting supplies to areas just before things fall appart.

Some other things to think about: Farming isn't going to be just knowing how to work the land. You are going to have to worry about zombies, constantly. Anytime you step out your door, you are now a prey animal. There's a reason why our ancestors learned agriculture AFTER all the mega-fauna (aka, big @$$ animals) died out after the ice age: you can't plant corn while being chased by a sabertooth tiger, or in this case, zombie policeman. Also, there might be humans that are every bit as dangerous as the undead. A group of raiders going down the road might see your lil garden patch and decide to stop by.

[Nxla666]

Fresh and Clean underwear will be worth ten times it weight in gold.

Considering the negligible weight of undies, and that gold is going to be just a malleable, pretty, shiny heavy metal, I'd say that clean undies could become worth millions of times their weight in gold.


Going back to the point of raiding office buildings for supplies because they're not as likely to be picked clean:

While people are obviously going to loot gorcery stores, multi-purpose department stores (especially those with major gorcery sectons), and possibly electronics stores, hardware stores, and sporting goods stores; what happens to Toys 'R Us?

I think it's likely to remain mostly unmolested. A good toystore, especially Toys 'R Us, has candy, not a good substitute for real food for long, but still some calories and bulk to make your belly feel full. Also, although almost everything is Nerf foam things these days, maybe there's a good aluminum bat or two to use as improvised weapons.

I work at a TRU/BRU combo store and theres more than just candy, gallons of water, formula, baby food of all types, plus nutrional supllements for preganant women.

The store I work at is on my list of disaster paces to raid, plus theres the boad games and BATTERIES.

Oh, and this store started off as a regular TRU and still had the baby food/water stuff as its pretty standard stuff, we just have more of it now with the BRU portion.

[Razzinold]

Bikes and Babyfood to name a few. I hadn't even thought about the baby food, that's being really creative. Plus some other baby supplies are going to make somebody's life MUCH easier if there actually is a baby to deal with. It's going to be hard enough finding clothes for grownups, let alone diapers and such.

A bike would be a fairly quiet way to get around, you can hook up a trailer to carry supplies, conviently also sold at Toys R Us. Yes baby supplies would make a mom or dad's life a whole lot better and would probably be in your debt for the rest of their lives (which in this case may not be all that long! ) BUT don't count yourself out either, I mean come on a few days without food and that Beef with Vegetables is starting to look pretty good. Ever seen Mad Max ? dude was eating dog food! at least baby food is made for humans. I'm telling you, feeding my baby girl her jarred food, some of it doesn't look too bad Another thing is they also have the mixed fruit ones, now those i have tasted and they taste exactly like the ones in the grocery store made for adults, except they have less sugar and more pure fruit, so better for you.

[GreenGhost]

Bikes and Babyfood to name a few. I hadn't even thought about the baby food, that's being really creative. Plus some other baby supplies are going to make somebody's life MUCH easier if there actually is a baby to deal with. It's going to be hard enough finding clothes for grownups, let alone diapers and such.

A bike would be a fairly quiet way to get around, you can hook up a trailer to carry supplies, conviently also sold at Toys R Us. Yes baby supplies would make a mom or dad's life a whole lot better and would probably be in your debt for the rest of their lives (which in this case may not be all that long! ) BUT don't count yourself out either, I mean come on a few days without food and that Beef with Vegetables is starting to look pretty good. Ever seen Mad Max ? dude was eating dog food! at least baby food is made for humans. I'm telling you, feeding my baby girl her jarred food, some of it doesn't look too bad Another thing is they also have the mixed fruit ones, now those i have tasted and they taste exactly like the ones in the grocery store made for adults, except they have less sugar and more pure fruit, so better for you.

You're on to something with the Baby Food. There are a lot of Body Builders out there that eat Baby Food when training. Not just that, but they'd be great for portability.

[Nxla666]

Bikes and Babyfood to name a few. I hadn't even thought about the baby food, that's being really creative. Plus some other baby supplies are going to make somebody's life MUCH easier if there actually is a baby to deal with. It's going to be hard enough finding clothes for grownups, let alone diapers and such.

A bike would be a fairly quiet way to get around, you can hook up a trailer to carry supplies, conviently also sold at Toys R Us. Yes baby supplies would make a mom or dad's life a whole lot better and would probably be in your debt for the rest of their lives (which in this case may not be all that long! ) BUT don't count yourself out either, I mean come on a few days without food and that Beef with Vegetables is starting to look pretty good. Ever seen Mad Max ? dude was eating dog food! at least baby food is made for humans. I'm telling you, feeding my baby girl her jarred food, some of it doesn't look too bad Another thing is they also have the mixed fruit ones, now those i have tasted and they taste exactly like the ones in the grocery store made for adults, except they have less sugar and more pure fruit, so better for you.

You're on to something with the Baby Food. There are a lot of Body Builders out there that eat Baby Food when training. Not just that, but they'd be great for portability.

Add to that the reusability of the jars, though several types are now in peel top plastic containers.

Odd coincidence, the other night the lady who works the baby area had the other night off so I got put over there so I used it as an oppurtunity to catalog the stock pile that could be put to use and found a few that hadnt been considred yet.

Hand sanitizer, baby toothpaste that doesnt require spitting, and multitudes of personal hygiene products beyond the whole soap&towel bit. lol

[Razzinold]

Bikes and Babyfood to name a few. I hadn't even thought about the baby food, that's being really creative. Plus some other baby supplies are going to make somebody's life MUCH easier if there actually is a baby to deal with. It's going to be hard enough finding clothes for grownups, let alone diapers and such.

A bike would be a fairly quiet way to get around, you can hook up a trailer to carry supplies, conviently also sold at Toys R Us. Yes baby supplies would make a mom or dad's life a whole lot better and would probably be in your debt for the rest of their lives (which in this case may not be all that long! ) BUT don't count yourself out either, I mean come on a few days without food and that Beef with Vegetables is starting to look pretty good. Ever seen Mad Max ? dude was eating dog food! at least baby food is made for humans. I'm telling you, feeding my baby girl her jarred food, some of it doesn't look too bad Another thing is they also have the mixed fruit ones, now those i have tasted and they taste exactly like the ones in the grocery store made for adults, except they have less sugar and more pure fruit, so better for you.

You're on to something with the Baby Food. There are a lot of Body Builders out there that eat Baby Food when training. Not just that, but they'd be great for portability.

Add to that the reusability of the jars, though several types are now in peel top plastic containers.

Odd coincidence, the other night the lady who works the baby area had the other night off so I got put over there so I used it as an oppurtunity to catalog the stock pile that could be put to use and found a few that hadnt been considred yet.

Hand sanitizer, baby toothpaste that doesnt require spitting, and multitudes of personal hygiene products beyond the whole soap&towel bit. lol

Nice call on the hand sanitizer and baby toothpaste. Two ways to keep clean that don't require water, as there wouldn't be any to spare. I like the post about the how to books at home depot, for small rural towns that might not have a store that big. Go to the library, you could get how to books there as well, maybe packages of coffee too.

[Nxla666]

The salvage teams should work in 5's, IMO. 2 to search and 3 to guard.

Teams of 6, IMO, that way they can split in to threes to search better and the effectivness isnt diminished as much.

Sometimes the best defense is speed.

[Todd Yoho]

I work at TRU as well ... spooky ...

My very first job when I was 15 and got my work permit was at a TRU. I still remember, with dread, the sound of those banks of roller-wheel diaper dispensers that I had to fill. And the incessant jingle played over the intercom through the "Toys R Us radio network." *shudder*

[CyCo]

Utilities are not going to nessicarly be knocked out, especially not quickly. Most utilities need to be turned off, and run constantly unless they are shut off. You don't buy power as a subscription. Rather they read your meters, and charge you based on what you used. If you can't pay for a period of time, they shut you off until your paid up. Water works in a similar fashion.

The bottom line here is that unless some dork runs around sabotaging the utility infrastructure, most of this is still going to be operational. It would take a while for it to collapse due to lack of maitnence, and honestly I'd imagine given the nessecity a lot of people could do what was needed to keep wherever they happen to be in water and power. Systems Failure had a good rationale for why the intrastructure would collapse entirely. A zombie Apocolypse generally doesn't (although I haven't found a copy of Dead Reign yet so they might have a good reason why).

Actually, you're quite wrong there. You'll find that most utilities and the like, while they are fairly autonomous, need human supervision. They are designed that way so that if something malfunctions, a human can intervene and switch the machinery off, or whatever needs doing. Especially for power plants, but also water works, sewer plants, etc. There was an article in Scientific American a while back, about what would happen to our cities/material objects if we suddenly disappeared. And the professor that wrote that article, said that after only a couple of days, the power plants would switch off because of the lack of supervision. It's a fail safe mechanism.

So your idea that the power/etc would remain functioning for sometime is not so good, unless you were talking only a couple of days.

[Shawn Merrow]

I haven't seen mention of it, but I know one group of items I'll gather in as large a quantity as possible in ANY post-apocalyptic world.

SPICES

You know- salt, pepper, oregano, etc. Any and all spices from as many places as I can find them. Sure, I'll have food, munitions, all that good stuff. But no one ever thinks about spices. Those are what has driven the world throughout the ages, and will once again be one of the most valuable commodities around.

..... damn. I just gave away my gameplan.

Good point spices used to be worth a large amount of money.

[Razzinold]

5-8 months gas will have spoiled if that is the correct term with all the additives and methanal gas shelf life is 5-8months so most gas will not be worth anything and vehicles will not be as useful as people expect.Hellbound

Not so sure I agree with you on this point (but pretty much did on everything else you mentioned)
ok two things before my post, first yes I realize you said most gas would be useless, and two maybe gas is processed differently in the USA ?

Ok now I own a muscle car from 1969 and living in Canada I only get to drive it for a couple of months of the year. Now come September, October at the latest I fill the tank with gas completely (better to sit full over the winter helps prevent freezing in the gas tank/lines) and it sits in a garage over the winter months (a couple of winters outside with only a car cover and plastic tarp roof to protect it from the elements). Them come May (sometimes April but usually on the May 24 weekend) I go into the garage, hook up the battery, fire up my car and drive it for the winter. So that is like 8 or 9 months, then I use that gas until it is gone, being I only drive on weekends (usually) that means the gas can last a whole year. Incase you are wondering I do fill it with super, which is about a 92 octane level, once in a while you find a place with 93. I have used octane booster in the a different car in the past (since these cars were built to run on leaded fuel) So cars won't be as useless as you think, so there is no rush to run out and find diesel.
Now all that aside I still probably wouldn't use my summer car, I would drain the tanks though, being a 1969 Chevelle SS with a 396, it's A) not exactly fuel efficient if used as an everyday driver, B) IT IS LOUD! but I guess at least I would look cool while driving around attracting every Zack in the neighbourhood at least I know I could outrun them in the car (if the road was clear)

*just for those who can't determine sarcasm in an electronic forum obviously I was joking about looking cool, I mean the car is cool, but staying alive would be my number one concern.

[Razzinold]

maybe gas is processed differently in the USA ?
Razzinold

Not sure but The Methanol gas we get here goes bad I will go to a store and check out the labels on the gas cans and see if they list warning about gas spoilage?
http://www.fuel-testers.com/expiration_ ... l_gas.html
the above website is talking about water contamination. according to my mechanic every vehicle he has worked on the fuel system has had some water in it.

And LOUD can be your friend. Most people don't think about it but your engine will echo very far through the city and will send the ceds searching all over the place and if you can keep them moving and searching without finding you or cathing you they run out of energy what happens after that I don't know since I don't have the book but it seems important since the go dormant and they need living ppe.

Oh loud can certainly be an asset, in a book I am writing I have a large convoy made up of different vehicles (each preforming specific tasks) one party is made up of a couple of different muscle cars with big block engines running open headers, they are used as a distraction/diversion or to lead anyone away from the rest of the convoy. They are called Chargers (for the fact that the guy who formed this idea/party in the book drives a Dodge Charger) There are scouts, chargers, barricaders, etc

[Kelorin]

Actually gasoline can and does go bad, and that is the least of our problems.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/04/09/aa.bad.gas/index.html

Also in the event of a zombie apocalypse, grid power will probably last approximately 6 - 8 hours, then things start to get really bad.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/aftermath/environment/index.html

The above link specifically deals with the question of what would happen to the planet if all humans suddenly disappeared, but some of its is still relevant to the question of what would happen if suddenly large quantities of humans died out.

The immediate concerns are that coal power plants which need constant human activity to operate will stop producing power, and this will create a rolling failure of the whole power grid. This happens on the first day. The loss of power also immediately affects the cooling units at chemical plants that need to be kept cold. Once those stop, lots of tanks of chemicals will begin venting into the environment. That's just Day 1. Click on Day 7 for 'Nuclear Safety Measures Fail' and Day 10 for 'Nuclear Meltdown' and 'Radioactive Aftermath'.

[Kelorin]

The information and link I posted above are actually from the Discovery channel program 'Aftermath', which is the TV Special of which you speak. The assumption there is that there are 0 humans left. But even with 30% of humananity still left, I would imagine it would still be difficult to maintain coals mines, the railway links and even reduced operations at the coal power plants. However, the links are still only intended as food for thought as a worst case scenario.

With a lot of Josh's world specific enclaves info missing from the final cut of Dead Reign, there are some gaps to fill.
Specific questions that need to be answered in any campaign for example:

Does the President or any of the Executive Branch survive?
- One of military's top priorities will be securing the Commander-In-Chief and getting him somewhere safe, like Air Force One, or to an aircraft carrier.

Exactly, what shape is the military in?
- Maybe the reason the military appears to be 'MIA' is that they are really busy securing / clearing and maintaining power and communications infrastructure. They know if the power goes out, the previously mentioned chemical and nuclear issues occur, and they're trying their darndest to prevent that. I'm picturing convoys of heavy military trucks with big diesel generators here. Also water purification plants, and oil refineries require grid power too. More reason to put power generation at the top of the list of military objectives.

One scenario that a buddy of mine (he's currently running an AFMBE campaign) and I came up with is this: Normally when you don't pay your hydro bill for several months, the Utility company can cut your power. So let's say the President survives for the time being. He issue a directive to the Deparment of Energy to cut all 'non-essential' power usage. So power goes out for homes, schools, shopping malls, and some industries. However, power is maintained for 'essential' functions: hospitals, airports, military bases, refineries, chemical plants, water purification etc. Total grid power consumption is reduced, and now can survive the loss of the coal power plants, relying on nuclear and hydro-electric. The army still spends a lot of its time keeping the zombies away from refineries, water, and power plants. They'll get around to saving your small town later...

What do you guys think?

[Tricky]

I didn't slam Dead Reign, I like it a lot, but honestly while it's not realistic, there is a reason why most games feature some kind of powered healing dynamic for psychics, mages, clerics, etc... to rapidly restore combat damage. From a pure playability standpoint it makes things a lot easier. In a game like Dead Reign where you are likely to get into gunfights (especially with current Palladium mechanics which in a system with fairly normal people basically amounts to 'if some guy shoots at you and rolls higher than a 5, he hits'), or hit by a zombie at some point (and probably frequently and often) it can be glaring if the PCs have to take a month or so off after each battle.

That's something has been digging in my brain: the unwanted side effect of "enhanced realism": You break your leg during an adventure, it's broke for a while (assumeing someone can even set it for you). You're going to be a liability for your party for what, at least a month, maybe more? You're speed is going to be probably a third of your normal, as are some skills. Even if there aren't complications, you're a disaster (and zombi buffet) waiting to happen. And unlike other PB games, or even your fave survivor horror video game, there will be no 'healing touch' or 'green herb' to fix you: you're busted.

I hope all you GM's out there have A LOT of character sheets for your players.

[Greyaxe]

That is the best part of a survival game! Its not about the combat Its about survival. Nursing a wound is a big part of survival. Fighting you way back into a town to get penicillin to help the sick is a heroic act and deserves a big fat 1000 xp bonus, remember despite rifts being the ultimate one over the next assault campaign, Palladium games are about the role playing. Most of the xp earned is not defeating villans or hordes of zombies but acting in the best interest of the group and being a true hero. Many simple folk will step up in times of need, maybe it will be you....

[Tricky]

True, it is supposed to be about the role playing, but tell that to Vince Steele, reaper. Or rather his player, Andy, who's character broke his leg due to a Retro-Savage ambush, and is now limpin around his hut in Salvation, while his Houndmaster, Scavanger and 3 Survivor friends go out looking for someone with some good antibiotics to keep him alive.
(maybe the GM will let Andy play one of the dogs?)

[AlexM]

I'm not getting the point about healing. Any contemporary survival game, with or without zombies, is going to deal with injury and getting help to some degree as a story element.

The G.M. is crafting a story. Sure, the group could ride out to a group of zombies in their pickup, take careful aim with their high-powered rifles, pick off a bunch, and when the zombies get too close, drive away. Then do it again, and again and again.

As far as injuries go, if your group is taking on a small group of 2 mile an hour Slouchers out in the open, there should be no problems.

That's not exciting storytelling though. If Dead Reign was a TV show, every episode would include a life and death scene where someone is really in trouble and needs help or needs to be rescued. Your characters should feel threatened during the game. That's just good storytelling.

I got a phone call not too long ago from someone who pointed out that in our Rifts game world, he felt Group A could just go and wipe out Group B. My reply was, Yes, they probably could. But, the Enterprise could be blown up by a giant alien spaceship in the first 60 seconds of Star Trek too. Needless to say, that's not good storytelling. In fact, Jack Bauer from 24 should be dead, if not from injuries, from sheer exhaustion. But we watch every episode on the edge of our seats. That's good storytelling, and yes, it takes planning and a bit of work on the part of the G.M.



Alex Marciniszyn

[Tricky]

I think this healing issue comes from the fact that in most other PB games, you have the 'healing option' that you don't have in DR: psychics, mages, clerics, fixers, nanites, bio-regen, super tech and magic are all over the rest of the Megaverse, but not here (at least not in the hands of players...yet). It's sorta a culture shock. You've had these tools in every game you've played, and now you don't, and things are more 'real'.

So while this makes DR more realistic than other PB games, it makes it 'harder to accept' than other ones.
Still, I see alot of potential to create great RP opportunitites: Sure, a guy is brave when he knows all he has to do is punch the plate on his chest and his nanites will fix his injuries. So he can swing in, smash the Deadboys, and save the girl. But maybe if his character wasn't so invulnerable he might find other ways to save a girl from 'deadboys'. Or maybe he will swing in, and end up sacraficeing his life for the girl.
Either way makes for good storytelling, which leads to a good game for all.

[Ten Tigers]

Toilet Paper FTW!!!

[Nxla666]

Fresh and Clean underwear will be worth ten times it weight in gold.

I stopped wearing underwear years ago, after my first field problem, for just that very problem.

Ah yes, going commando.

[GrampaAllen]

there are alot more dogs than survivors packs of pets gone ferral = good eating

[Michael Barakofsky]

After reading the first page I noticed something, everyone is wanting to raid a grocerystore/supermarket for food and water. Me I would wait for my neighbor to go raid the store and then hit his house and take what he had stored to begin with, assuming that he wasnt a zombie to begin with, if he went zed on me I would just geek him and take the loot ( read as useable supplies) anyway.

[Michael Barakofsky]

I'm not getting the point about healing. Any contemporary survival game, with or without zombies, is going to deal with injury and getting help to some degree as a story element.

The G.M. is crafting a story. Sure, the group could ride out to a group of zombies in their pickup, take careful aim with their high-powered rifles, pick off a bunch, and when the zombies get too close, drive away. Then do it again, and again and again.

As far as injuries go, if your group is taking on a small group of 2 mile an hour Slouchers out in the open, there should be no problems.

That's not exciting storytelling though. If Dead Reign was a TV show, every episode would include a life and death scene where someone is really in trouble and needs help or needs to be rescued. Your characters should feel threatened during the game. That's just good storytelling.

I got a phone call not too long ago from someone who pointed out that in our Rifts game world, he felt Group A could just go and wipe out Group B. My reply was, Yes, they probably could. But, the Enterprise could be blown up by a giant alien spaceship in the first 60 seconds of Star Trek too. Needless to say, that's not good storytelling. In fact, Jack Bauer from 24 should be dead, if not from injuries, from sheer exhaustion. But we watch every episode on the edge of our seats. That's good storytelling, and yes, it takes planning and a bit of work on the part of the G.M.



Alex Marciniszyn

That's fine if you want to fudge the dice, or if the GM is letting the PCs run around and "cheez" all the encounters. In an actual adventure though the PCs are going to have objectives to complete and not just run around randomly shooting zombies from a pickup (though this could happen conceptually within the world setting, it would probably make for a dull game).

As adventures require a challenge, the PCs for whatever reason are not going to be able to employ those kinds of "standard" tactics which is what makes this an abnormal and heroic situation worthy of being called an adventure.

The part your not getting here is this:

Character rolls 4 on perception, does not see Zombie. Zombie pops out suddenly. Character rolls 6 on horror factor check and is stunned. Zombie rolls 12 on attack which the character can't defend against. Character is gone, or at least pretty much out of the adventure where he gets to sit around twiddling his thumbs for the rest of the session, or perhaps the next several sessions, while he heals.

The point here is that in shows like "24" for example the writer is on the side of the protaganist. It's not an RPG. Jack Bauer wins because that's what the script says. In fact we all generally know he's going to at least survive for the show to go on. The entertainment isn't really the suspense (oh noes! will he die in episode 10 of this season when we know there are another 14 episodes or whatever?) it's more about "how will he get out of this one", since you know he inevitably does. The same applies to most TV shows, books, and movies.

In an RPG it doesn't work like that, unless your doing some kind of storytelling game where the dice are functionally irrelevent (and honestly this leads into an old arguement about Storytelling games vs. real RPGs which has been retreaded dozens of times).

At the risk of being rude, I can see why people are standing up for Kevin, but by the same token I'd seriously question how much of an actual RPG gamer anyone is that is honestly blind to this problem.

There are only so many times you can fudge the dice in a serious RPG before it removes a key element of the game, and indeed what makes it a GAME as opposed to simply a story.

Now yes, I'm sure Kevin is falling back on his old "well if you don't like it, change things for your own game" schtick, but that doesn't prevent the canon from being a giant mess when viewed as an RPG you could sit down and run serious campaigns with.

Now as a Pretzels and Beer RPG (which this was not supposed to be) my points are less valid since they aren't really intended for serious campaign use.

>>>----Therumancer--->

Maybe I shouldn't be butting my nose in here but I still have to point out something that I think has been missed, BODY ARMOR. Characters can get body armor in the game fairly easily if not start off with it outright. The armor aids in keeping a character alive longer. Not to mention the fact that while the damage remains in the realm of SDC the character can function easily enough, its not until HP damage is sustained that a character starts to really be put out of comission.

If players are smart and use their surroundings to their advantage they can engage in combat without sustaining much in the way of injury. If injury occurs there is plenty of available time to recover SDC damage by engaging in light duty things like assisting with the safe haven duties such as gate guard or even helping to build a new home for refugees. Unless Palladium has changed the rules on it (or the GM I had at the time was using a house rule and never told me) SDC recovers a lot faster than HP does, my old GM said its something like 5 or 10 SDC points per day as opposed to the 1 or 2 HP per day that can be recovered. So a little down time between runs for supplies doesn't spoil a game. I have been in plenty of games that were non-stop adrenalin from begining to end, and ya know what its a little boring to me now, I look forward to the down time when character vs character role playing can be done or even character vs NPC role playing without fighting.

I have a GM who runs Nightbane for me and combat happens maybe once every 3rd or 4th game session the rest is good role playing, this game started within the first year Nightspawn came out and we are now currently in the year 2006 only 6 years after dark day (campaign started 2 years prior to dark day) so we havent caught up to the book time line yet but its still fun. (though I do agree that if it takes a week of solid gaming to get through 1 day in game there is a little problem).

[The Beast]

Someone on page one mentioned using a commercial fishing boat. I would suggest a sail boat with a back-up engine. The engine will only last as long as the fuel does (or until it breaks, whichever comes first). A sail would at least keep you from drifting however the ocean wants you too.

[Esckey]

Two stores that havn't been mentioned yet

Sporting goods stores for weapons(baseball bats, hockey sticks, golf sticks) body armour(hockey pads, etc) many have atheltic based health items like tenser bandages, knee braces and the likes

Camping equipment stores(mountian co-op specifically) for backpacks, tents, pick axes, and other survival equipment


As for malls with Guns, West Edmonton Mall has a gun shop and shooting range so I'm safe hehe

[Thinyser]

First place I'd go?

Menard's, they are like a home depot but for some unknown reason (probably to feed hungary construction workers) has a rather good stock of non parishable foods like jerky, nuts, hamberger helper, stew and soup, bottled water, gatorade, etc They even have a cooler or two with milk and eggs and stuff. Strange.

Anyhoo I'd go there and stock up on as much food and building supplies as I could pack into their largest delivery pannel van (lumber, hammers and nails as well as concrete mix and other tools and fastners , make sure to pick up thier biggest electrical generator as well as a welder and a plasma cutter along with extra welding wire and whatever steel they have on hand and alot of copper wire and couple of space heaters) . Siphon gas from the other vehicles to fill its tank, then drive it up onto the back of their flatbed delivery truck. Make sure its tank is as full as I can get it and then if there is any more fuel to be had get that into containers and pack them on the flatbed as well. Make sure its all strapped down and head out for the nearest hydroelectric dam (about 75 miles from where I live). Hit up the "Sportsmans" hunting and fishing store to see if anything is left, If its not totally picked clean get whatever is of use and stick it anywhere I can.

This is ontop of the ruger 10/22 and 12 ga., fishing, and camping gear that I already have... as well as as much water as I can get from my toilet tanks and bleed out of my pipes (likely in the early days the water would still be on as its gravity feed for most areas, so this would not be necessary but if it is off do not overlook toilet tanks for fresh water. Once the "well dries up" so to speak there would be many abandond toilets with water in their tanks and you would be surprised how water will stay fresh when it sits in there all coverd up and dark preventing crap from growing in it.)

Once at the dam (or If communication was possible I would get ahold of anybody I could in my home town and start this phase before I even get there) I would look for employee records and go into my home town (grew up a few miles away from the dam) and get these people that know how to opperate the dam and anybody else I can get and bring them back to the dam itself. The thing is already a zed proof bunker for all intents and purposes. There is only one entrance that is accessable at ground level so Id simply use the plasma cutter to slice the stairs and ladders off leading to the other entrances and then use the construction materials to fortify the ground floor main entrance (big glass doors dont keep Zack out very well). With even a skeleton crew we should be able to keep the turbines opperational and delivering power.

"Green" Electricity from hydroelectric, solar, and wind is IMO one of the key things to long term survival and I figure its a whole lot easier to keep these resources running than to try to get them reestablished after they have been abandonded. Yes we can do without power for many things... but survival with it allows more people to survive on less resources since anybody that still has AC current would not need to burn wood for warmth or to boil water, burn candles for light, or eat food that day before it spoils. It also allows for communications via radio... and allows batteries to be recharged so that they are not "consumables" any longer.

Basically its not a necessity for human survival, like water and food are, but it can make purifiying that water and cooking and preserving that food SOOO much easier and less resource/time consuming. Plus it keeps up morale, people just arnt as scared or depressed if the lights are still on.

Next i'd hit up the national guard armory (also in my home town) and see if there was anything/anybody there that could be usefull. (snuck in to their supply closet when i was like 10 and filched a survival guide while there with my dad for an auction... hey they left the door open and what else is a boy to do when bored to death at an auction except to explore places he should not be? Anyhow I doubt they would have taken their .22 target rifles that they take out to events and let kids shoot at hay bales with if they were deployed so we would atleast get a couple small game guns out of the deal. There also might be food, fuel, or other resources (ammo, spare parts, who knows what) to plunder.

Next would be the Public library for reference/how to books and some useless peridicals for starting fires as well as stockpiles of fiction for entertainment. Next would be radioshack, I'd take about everything they had. From flashlights to TV's to all the little odds and ends like connectors and capicitor and transistors and, well, everything. I might not need it now or even next year but stuff like that would barter well to those that could use it and hey maybe it would be usefull for upkeep on the dam's electronics.

Finally I would get a good team together and start sweeping the grocerie stores, pharmacies, k-mart, walmart looking for clothes, shoes, and other stuff that is left by other looters. Hit up the video store for DVDs/video games/snacks. Hey morale is important as i said, and we should have a limitless supply of electricty so these things would actually be great to take minds of the real world. Next would be schools and hospitals then the entire town house by house, street by street, untill we gather all the non parishable food and bottled water, and killed all the zeds (The town is only 13,000 people and so would only have about 5,000-6,000 homes. Thats only 50-60 homes a day or 5-6 per hour for 10 hours each day for 100 days. A tough routine but worth it to collect the resouces needed to survive. Figure in 4 months (120 days) or less if you had a few teams working on it you could get through the entire town.

Next would be the housing developments just around the town and farms nearby... maybe get lucky and get some live stock that we could secure away from zed as breeding stock. The mental hospital and manufacturing plants around the town would be last. All This would keep us busy for the next several months.

While the fist stages of this is going on a team would be setting up hydroponic, or at least indoor, gardens to grow fresh veggies and fruits year round (the inside of the dam's powerhouse is HUGE and has at least an acre and a half of floor space that could be used for gardens.) Its an earthen dam except of course for the powerhouse and the spill way) which mean its sides are just dirt which are just grass covered now but could be used for gardening also though they are steep and farm equipment would be dificult to use but its got to have a few dozen acres of space on it that we could hand till and sow with wheat and hand reap for bread. Plus with all that fresh water and electricty I'm sure that there would be an easy way to pump or siphon up water for irrigation.

With a huge lake above the dam and a small seepage lake and the Missouri river below the dam there will be lots of fish, and in the surrounding woods, if the zeds dont get them, lots of deer and wild turkey to be shot.

[Thinyser]

The salvage teams should work in 5's, IMO. 2 to search and 3 to guard.

Teams of 6, IMO, that way they can split in to threes to search better and the effectivness isnt diminished as much.

Sometimes the best defense is speed.

I have to agree with 6.

2 to sweep for zombies and search for loot, and 1 packing up what the searchers find. This way you can always have the person that is packing stuff guarded by one of the sweeper/searchers while the other can continue to sweep and search in the next room tossing everything worth packing into a pile. Safer and more efficient.

Two outside on perimeter watch staking out opposite corners to cover all 4 sides of a building with only two guards. This makes sure that if Zed starts to congregate everybody knows about it well in advance. Have the last one guarding the entrance to the building so that they can easily get word from the perimeter guard to the searchers inside without having to scream at top volume and call other zed. Plus it makes sure that no Zed get the drop on the guards outside if they try to leave the building.

Plus you have one more man to distribute loot amongst thereby lightening the burden on each. Canned goods and bottled water, as well as weapons and such, are darn heavy so a couple of houses worth could easily be 100 Lbs of stuff worth taking. Ideally you would have some sort of wagon or bike trailer to haul it away but if not sharing the burden would make it easier to haul more stuff in fewer trips.

Every expedition into unexplored territory is dangerous and so fewer trips to gather the same amount of stuff means its safer from a statistical standpoint to have larger groups and fewer trips rather than smaller groups and more trips. So long as you stay under 7 in your group that is, as to avoid the larger detection range the larger groups suffer from.

Just my 2 cents.

[Esckey]

I would follow the old X-Com rules when exploring. 2 Men to lead, and 2 men to follow. Ensures that one man can always help the other, and you have twice the amount of fire power to bring down on a alien, or zombie in this case. And in extreme cases the two in the back can provide backup and covering fire for the two in the front. Just need two guys in the middle with bags and packs to loot the place as they go through the building

[Michael Barakofsky]

I could pack into their largest delivery pannel van (lumber, hammers and nails as well as concrete mix and other tools and fastners , make sure to pick up thier biggest electrical generator as well as a welder and a plasma cutter along with extra welding wire and whatever steel they have on hand and alot of copper wire and couple of space heaters) . Siphon gas from the other vehicles to fill its tank,

Just make sure you use the right fuel. That's a lot of work you just did, possibly under attack by zombies, to have the truck sputter and cough to a stop because you mixed diesel and regular.

Yeah but on the plus side if your surrounded by zeds and run out of gas after doing all that much work, theres 1 thing to look forward to: You WON'T feel pain anymore. And when my group comes along and finds the loaded vehicle we will be thankful to whoever loaded it while we hook a towline to it and drag it home .

[9voltkilowatt]

A very large portion of the U.S. (and to some extent the entire world) is covered in restaurants, most of which have at least one if not a solid dozen deep fryers. With a good filtering a standard diesel engine can run on the vegetable oil without any modifications for at least a little while, with the modifications it's simply a matter of maintenance.

So the next time your out scrounging around the local McDonalds for food make sure to keep an eye out for this oft overlooked fuel source.

Oh yeah, watch out in the colder months as the vegetable oil will be a real pain if you don't have some kind of engine warmer.