Old Ones... How many are there?

[Vidynn]

Anyway then they bring in this new guy Syth... as a Star Wars fan I am a bit upset by the name but I just shrug and go, Huh?

well, Sith - Syth isnt as bad as the island of Y-Oda. (and Im quite sure that the SW Sith didnt really influence the name giving, as the Sith were only briefly mentioned in the first movie of the original trilogy)

I also have issues about a book called the Old Ones that features maybe 30 pages on the subject when it's a huge book.

yeah, the appropriate title should have been The Timiro Kingdom. maybe that title wasnt "sexy" enough. IMO they should have put the classes into the main book and the info on the Old Ones into D&G. for the concept of the Old Ones think HP Lovecraft's Great Old Ones. So, your uncle doesnt qualify, I guess.

[t0m]

the 1st edition book is a little different. it stats out what they refer to as 'the most powerful of the old ones', and elude to the fact that they were more of an ancient race, rather than a few solitary beings. syth is no-where to be seen, and the old one in the place of magic goes un-named (presumably an accomplice/minion to the heavy hitters who are hopefully buried somewhere harder to find).

the stats in the first edition book are pretty much off the charts...80,000 hit points, all spell, elemental, clerical and circle magic at 20th level, all psionics with 1000 isp, 5 spell attacks/round etc etc. im pretty sure they were meant to be considered invincible. then rifts and 2nd edition came out and in converting to mdc they would have been cannon fodder for a few big vehicles with lots of mdc guns and missiles salvos blazing. in updating the book to 2nd edition i think they just wanted us to think they were invincible instead of tacking on a few 0's to the hit points or calling it 80k mdc, which would almost be considerable/possible with enough rifts weapons/vehicles. if it took all the dragons, titans and innumerable other races using unheard of ancient magics battling to extinction or near extinction to even trap them, anything short of that shouldnt even be able to look at them funny...

thats my take on it anyway.

[The Dark Elf]

I was going to change the Syth Old One to be one of the main ones. when beings are that powerful, theres not much in it but it would be more of an experience to meet a named one IMO.

Then my Bro wrote an adventure detailing the whereabouts of them (starting with the one under Glade, Al-vil on a meteor, one in Place of Magic) and adding the rest. So Ive no idea which one I can make it instead.

[Anthar]

The physical power of the Old Ones could have exagerated. Much of the text written in the game is very "poetic" in that the fictional authors use poetry and exageration. Proof of this is that the greatest and most powerful was Xy the great Old One, who was betrayed by his peers and transformed into the Egyptian god Thoth. Thoth's true MDC/HPs/SDC are revealed in Dragons and Gods, and is considerable less than other Alien Intelligence found in Palladium print.

[t0m]

Didn't it also elude to the fact that they'd do millions of damage per melee attack?

not in the section that stats them out.... under attacks per melee it just says magic attacks. (ex - 5 by spell or psionics). they dont get strike, parry or dodge bonuses either...only ridiculous save bonuses (+15 to save vs all magic for example). they dont have conventional 8 attribute stats either...



edit -

I was going to change the Syth Old One to be one of the main ones. when beings are that powerful, theres not much in it but it would be more of an experience to meet a named one IMO.

Then my Bro wrote an adventure detailing the whereabouts of them (starting with the one under Glade, Al-vil on a meteor, one in Place of Magic) and adding the rest. So Ive no idea which one I can make it instead.

if its available/finished i would like to read what he has. lemme know if tahts possible

[ZorValachan]

The physical power of the Old Ones could have exagerated. Much of the text written in the game is very "poetic" in that the fictional authors use poetry and exageration. Proof of this is that the greatest and most powerful was Xy the great Old One, who was betrayed by his peers and transformed into the Egyptian god Thoth. Thoth's true MDC/HPs/SDC are revealed in Dragons and Gods, and is considerable less than other Alien Intelligence found in Palladium print.

It's also clearly stated that it was an almost complete physical/mental transformation and that he lost much of his old power (MDC/HPs/SDC, powers, spells, etc.) So he would of course now be much lesser in power than when he was an Old One

[t0m]

So where does Syth (Grumble, Grumble) fit on the Hierarchy of Old Ones? Are there Lesser Old Ones?

at the very end of book 2 2nd edition, its says that he is a lesser old one and that he may not be as powerful as the 'famous' ones whos names are well known as power words etc...but he is still at least as powerful as a god, and that the magics holding him reduce his strength to 1 percent of its potential ( he is barely conscious).

i would take this to mean that there are potentially other lesser ones (maybe lots more), and that even though they are 'lesser', they are still god-like in terms of power level and capability.

[drewkitty ~..~]

How many...... as many as the plot says there are.

The old Ones are described as Alien Intelligences, and have been around since close to the beginning of the megaverse.
The most powerful were the ones named in the PF2 main book ( I think that is were they are named), while every one under them were lesser beings, while still Old Ones, they were not feared as much so their names were not recorded by anyone that knew them.

In the rifter there was a short story that ran a through few of the books that had a AI that was a servant of the OO in the story. There are numerous AI in the megaverse but only those associated with the PF world got the name of Old Ones from the people living there.

[Starmage21]

How many...... as many as the plot says there are.

The old Ones are described as Alien Intelegences, and have been around since close to the begining of the megaverse.
The most powerful were the ones named in the PF2 main book ( I think that is were they are named), while every one under them were lesser beings, while still Old Ones, they were not feared as much so their names were not recorded by anyone that knew them.

I beleive that in the Vampire Kingdoms book, and somewhere where the spluugorth as a race are statted out, both intelligences are specifically listed as being puny old ones.

if theyre puny, imagine what the great ones were like.

[AzathothXy]

I'd say Syth is really lesser. He's only 30th level and knows only all wizard spells. He doesn't even know a second magic OCC. He's pretty strong for a regular AI, but the the Old Ones were like the gods of the AIs.

[Reagren Wright]

The Old Ones Book mentioned 7 Old Ones by name (the ones who names are power words.
Even in 1st edition fighting these guys was impossible. They tens of thousands of hit points
(back when there was only hit points) and the next person with the highest was Satan who
had 666. I use to wonder when it would say Ya-Blik possesses all forms of magic (ward, circle,
elemental, etc), does that mean they has to draw circles and wards? I mean where does an
Old One get quicksilver and rabbit skin glue? If they are the size of houses, how do they draw
a circle or make a ward?

Also Alien Intelligence have deific powers, that means the old ones have them too and just
look at the powers the Gods of Light and Dark have, one can only fanthom what sort of
powers they possess.

[Library Ogre]

The Old Ones Book mentioned 7 Old Ones by name (the ones who names are power words.
Even in 1st edition fighting these guys was impossible. They tens of thousands of hit points
(back when there was only hit points) and the next person with the highest was Satan who
had 666.

Bes had 700. I still recall this fact.

[t0m]

I use to wonder when it would say Ya-Blik possesses all forms of magic (ward, circle,
elemental, etc), does that mean they has to draw circles and wards? I mean where does an
Old One get quicksilver and rabbit skin glue? If they are the size of houses, how do they draw
a circle or make a ward?

one of the gods in dragons and gods (cant recall which one) can write runes in the air with its mind as a way of casting spells. im pretty sure the old ones work in a similar fashion...or they simply turn into a humanoid race and do it manually, or possibly use a minion to do it (via possession, mind control, asking nicely etc).

also, mr hall is correct, i just looked in my 1st ed rule book.

[drewkitty ~..~]

How many...... as many as the plot says there are.

The old Ones are described as Alien Intelegences, and have been around since close to the begining of the megaverse.
The most powerful were the ones named in the PF2 main book ( I think that is were they are named), while every one under them were lesser beings, while still Old Ones, they were not feared as much so their names were not recorded by anyone that knew them.

I beleive that in the Vampire Kingdoms book, and somewhere where the spluugorth as a race are statted out, both intelligences are specifically listed as being puny old ones.

if theyre puny, imagine what the great ones were like.

While the splugi are classified as AI's (at least they have been described as AI's somewhere), an Vamp I's are sort of closly related to AI's, to be called an Old One, they would of needed to have been with in Xy's circle of assosiated AI's. Which after the defeat of the the top OO's, the ones that were not captured and inprisoned, went to ground and stayed in hiding for a time. To ether avoid the hunter seekers or the rebelion, or to avoid other AI's.

besides AI's are stated out for rifts in the RCB1. I haven't compaired them to Thoth's stats recently.

[The Dark Elf]

Just going off topic as to how powerful they are...

Ive got Syths witch (gift of union as casting at 10th lvl). Therefore Syth equals 30th lvl. However he is being withheld to 1/100th of his mormal lvl by the "magic slumber" (wards etc.) So I have Syth (a LESSSER old one down as a lvl 3000 wizard, or 3Kth lvl Old One AI. My highest OCC is lvl 7 (I GM alot)

For eg. Casting fulimantion for 75 ppe doing 30,000 damage without save only dodge is pretty good and most gods would die as impervious to lightning is a missed natural ability and their dodge bonuses (although although) arent as good as you'd expect and if they now the attack is coming. Not bad though for 75PPE.
Pls dont comment on this eg for flaws (ofc, with everything there would be many), its just an eg.

[Reagren Wright]

If you have 1st edition Old Ones and you compare the powers and abilities to the other Gods
found in PRRPG 1st edition, you can clearly see how powerful they where. Now look at Dragons
and Gods and look at an Alien Intelligence their magic level is equal to a 2D4+6 practioner of
magic and their psychic abilities is equal to a 2D4+2 master psionic. You compare that to
Thoth who is a 30th level Diabolist, 20th level Rune Master (whatever that means), 20th level
Wizard, and a 15th level Summoner. I won't call him a 20th level Alchemist since that class
requires you to be a wizard, diabolist, and summoner. In our games we have him a 20th level
Dweomer Mage (From Rifter 17). Therefore I like to think Kevin's original view of the Old Ones
from 1st edition has to simply be modified. Here's an example.

AGU
Symbol of life, birth, and rebirth
Alignment: Anarchist
The Eight Attributes: I.Q. 40, M.E. 24, M.A. 33, P.S.: 50 (supernatural), P.P. 37,
P.E. 52, Spd. 60, P.B. 3
Hit Points: 300,000
S.D.C.: 4.5 million.
M.D.C.: 4.8 million.
Natural Armor Rating: A.R.: 15.
Average P.P.E.: 50,000.
I.S.P.: 10,000
R.C.C. & Skills: Understand and speak all known languages, All Lore, Science,
and History at 98%.
Horror Factor: 19 (those not supernatural beings or creatures of magic automatically fail).
Physical Appearance: I leave it to your imagine.
Disposition: He is a deviant Old One (whatever deviant means) that enjoys the
emotions, the excitement of life, birth, and emotional rebirth.
Size: 100 feet in diameter.
Weight: Unknown
Average Lifespan: Immortal and everlasting.
Vulnerability: Rune and Millennium Weapons inflict triple damage.
Natural Abilities: Bio-Regeneration 1D4x1000 hit points/S.D.C. per minute, Nightvision
2000 feet (609.6 m), See the Invisible, Turn Invisible at Will, Impervious to organic attacks
(poison, disease, drugs, acid, toxins, gases, etc), Impervious to cold, heat, fire, plasma,
normal and conventional weapons, create 100 essense fragments, Total control over Ley
Lines and all P.P.E, Teleport (superior) 6000 miles (9600 km) away, Dimensional Teleport (any
where in the megaverse), Turn Dead (up to 6000) at 98%, Energy Bolts, Range: 6000 feet
(1828 m), Damage: 6D6x10. Dodge on a natural 20 or a 24 or higher with accumulated
bonuses, Summon 6D6x10 minions (See Land of the Damned), Impervious to HF, Mind Control,
and Possession, Knows all Deific Powers at 1/2 normal cost and can do them without use of
investments, Power of Possession, Read and Use Runes and Rune Magic as well as read and
understand all symbols.
Attacks per Melee: 7 attacks per melee by spell, psionic, or physical.
Damage: Supernatural P.S. damage. Any physical blow from an Old One is like being
struck with a lesser rune weapon, thus those vulnerable to rune weapons (like certain gods)
may take double or triple damage.
Bonuses: +10 on initiative, +8 to strike, +8 to parry, +8 to dodge (teleport), +12 to roll
with punch, and +5 to pull punch.
Saving Throws: Needs a 10 or better to save vs. psionic, +5 to save vs. psionic, +7 to
save vs. insanity, +13 to save vs. magic, +10 to save against all others unmentioned.
Magic: Knows all wizard and warlock spells at 20th level. Need a 17 or better to save against.
Psionics: Knows all psionic powers
Languages: Can speak and read all known languages in the megaverse.
Enemies: All things Good and Evil. Chaos must reign supreme.
Allies: Fellow Old Ones and Minions (but no one can be trusted).

There you have it, although some would say you shouldn't give them stats. But if the Wild
Gods were able to fight one and nearly kill it (losing only because they where betrayed) that
means they must be bound by role playing rules. They don't have to be level 3000.
Deific Powers at 1/2 normal cost and no investment makes them true gods. Being impervious
to normal weapons and conventional damage means only magic and psionics can hurt them
and only the most powerful weapons around can do that, but to what end when you have
4.5 million S.D.C.. Ra's Greatest Rune Weapon would do 2D4x1000 points of damage to one,
how long before Agu kills him before he does more then 1% damage to his S.D.C. which is
45,000? This of course is a my opinion as a guideline, no one is ever going to fight an Old One
because if we are I think the Palladium megaverse is pretty much over as we know it.

[Reagren Wright]

Holy Cow What book are those things in.

[Reagren Wright]

Okay South America has always been over powered, but I'm going to have to check out
these Demon Planets. If you send the entire fleet of Dwarven Iron Ships, yeah I could see
them doing some serious damage to any Old One. But I'm sure back during the Chaos War
these ships didn't exist. I also see that an Old One could cast the spell Impervious to Energy
and none of the ships weapon system would inflict any damage. The missiles do
magical energy damage so they won't work either. The deific power
Transmutation which would only cost 250 P.P.E and no investments can effect objects as
long as they are not 500 feet (152.4 m) across, well the width of the ship is 80 feet (24.4
m), so the ship got turned into a potato chip, not sure what happens to the crew? As for
those Demon Planets, definately got to examin them bad boys and put even more beef on
the Old Ones.

[Probitas]

There is an entity infesting a host somewhere in the Western Empire I believe that ALSO is keeping tabs of a sort on the OLD ONES, though the current distractions present do tend to cause it to forget the larger threat in favor of more immediate pleasures.

[Reagren Wright]

The Deific power can transform a building and the only limit is width. Doesn't say anything
about length, height or mass, just width. As for the deities found in Pantheons of the
Megaverse which needs a serious updating, none of them where able to do a single thing
against them, just an Angel, an Elf, and a Dragon.

[Probitas]

God teleports to object, dimensionally teleports said object to elsewhere, then leaves it there to be destroyed when the pocket collapses.

God teleports inside object, uses a power to enlarge an object inside that one to godlike proportions, bursting it from within.

God summons an elemental of water, shorts out your power supply, you are toast.

God manifests as a small microbe, tunnels inside the commander, kills him, takes his place, then issues a series of contradictory and countermanding orders, tying the force into a knot, leaving it open to be destroyed piecemeal.

God summons an electrical storm, and while that is playing havoc with weaponry and shields, creates a blinding light overpowering any sensory devices, then creates a portal to Deevil directly ahead of the ships. End of story.

God summons his friends, who don't like the idea of pesky mortals pretending to be their betters, and they proceed to leave a very messy example behind of why you are not to mess with them. Mothers run screaming from the wreckage when they see what has been done to their babies.

You pesky mortals, they will say. When will you learn that regardless of how mighty you think you are, never will you approach our power. You think in such small, limited ways.

[Probitas]

Until the God-slayer shows up and backhands him for getting out of line... Nothing is truly omnipotent.

That was an absolute. If nothing is omnipotent, then nothing can challenge a God, not really. If said God destroys the mortal, that's the end of that. Gods can actually reconstitute themselves, a feat no mortal will ever manage to do. Mortals need assistance from an outside source for that sort of trick, which is why in my adventures, mortals can thwart a God, trick a God, even threaten a God (with suitable backing), but KILL a God?!? Never happen. Even the evil Gods serve a purpose.

Remember Gods didn't have to learn their abilities, the mortals did. That's a true indication of their different natures.

But if it turns your crank to run around slaying Gods and upsetting the balance of reality, not to mention depriving untold millions of priestly magic, more power to you. Though don't ever claim that character was not acting in an evil fashion, and not the aberrant evil either.

[J. Lionheart]

Until the God-slayer shows up and backhands him for getting out of line... Nothing is truly omnipotent.

That was an absolute. If nothing is omnipotent, then nothing can challenge a God, not really. If said God destroys the mortal, that's the end of that. Gods can actually reconstitute themselves, a feat no mortal will ever manage to do. Mortals need assistance from an outside source for that sort of trick, which is why in my adventures, mortals can thwart a God, trick a God, even threaten a God (with suitable backing), but KILL a God?!? Never happen. Even the evil Gods serve a purpose.

Remember Gods didn't have to learn their abilities, the mortals did. That's a true indication of their different natures.

But if it turns your crank to run around slaying Gods and upsetting the balance of reality, not to mention depriving untold millions of priestly magic, more power to you. Though don't ever claim that character was not acting in an evil fashion, and not the aberrant evil either.

Actually, the god cannot reconstitute him or her self. They can only be brought back by the honest desire of other gods of their pantheon, or with the sincere devotion of a large number of worshippers over an extended period of time. A slain god can and will stay slain if those conditions aren't met, and a discorporating (self-annihilating) god will do likewise.

The gods are manifested by the mortals who wish for and worship them, and are subject to the combined will of their followers. Some are newly created by the rise of a worshipper base (e.g. Wolvenar), some fade away as their base is vanishes (e.g. The Wild Lords). Some gods are crazy, like their followers (e.g. Chantico), and at least one remains without a physical body (Kalba). Former beings of deific power seek to regain their lost status (e.g. Antipator), and there are those who could be gods, but simply choose not to be (a la Vallisque-Tan).

No, the Gods are not simply eternal beings of ultimate power. They are amongst the most powerful beings in existence, but even they got their start somewhere in the murky past, and may have an end in the murky future.

[Reagren Wright]

I just looked at Anvil Galaxy and examined these Demon Planets. Holy cow!
1D4x5 Million MDC!!! They actually have ley lines on their bodies. How do you fight
something you have to land on? Are far as I know, there's nothing else that comes close to
these things. They are considered alien intelligences with 15th level spell magic. So Ryoma
I'll concede this, these things are way beyond what I posted earlier. The power levels are
off the scale. You have to attack these things with a fleet of medium class or bigger
spaceships. So if you utilize these guys and what's in Dragons & Gods as your blueprint for
Alien Intelligences, you will be able to get a notion for Old One rpg stats.

[The Dark Elf]

Ive had an inspired thought about this one...

Syth is buried under the old kingdom mountains at the intersection.

There was never a mountain range in Eastern territory but when the book comes out and netosa is buried underneath and thus the shattered mountains appear with ruins of catacombs with staues of many-eyed, many-tentacled beings.

The baalizard things from Baalgor are escpaing the "demons of the deep" but not even Tristine records any demons of the deep except for the old ones..

Other than Al Vil being on a meteor? (semi-rumoured in book 4), count the mountain ranges and there may be an old one underneath each!! Dont forget the inverted T mountain range on Lopan.

Whats Belimars tear at the largest ley line nexus on Palladium? A key? A gate? a prison?

Is there one underneath the Nothern Mountains?

Dragons gate on top of a mountain range to protect it? Giants Run Mountians with several giant towns to protect them? Shadowfall near Algor mountains. Kaash near Shattered Mountians with its leader. Tiny Timiro bordering PoM (and once Prestida kingdom on top)....

[The Beast]

Other than Al Vil being on a meteor? (semi-rumoured in book 4)

Huh? I don't remember reading anything that came close to hinting that.

[The Dark Elf]

Read again and look for the star dragon

[The Dark Elf]

I thought Id let you know exactly whats said as its so vague you might miss it even looking for it...

Ceratus Dominus works to start the war between humans and wolfen for Al-Vil. "So dreams Al-Vil" as he says.

In his history its just mentions that the abomination was hatched on a world orbiting a distant star (ok not meteor) and encountered an unidentified extraterrestrial force the emitted alien energies of which drove him insane.

Maybe its Al-Vil, maybe the dragon dudes just bonkers...

[The Beast]

I never took that as he ran into Al-Vil...

[Goliath Strongarm]

Reagren, nicely done, for the most part. Some points, with my opinions:

1) Alchemist IS important, and should be counted for Thoth. Each level of that is an ADDITIONAL level beyond just the required. And that's a class that's "so powerful and imbalancing", that ONLY NPCs are supposed to be able to have it.

2) I've always seen the physical stats for the OO kind of pointless.. since most could shapeshift and change forms at will (or with easily done magics), does PB really apply? They could have PBs of 50 when they wanted them. They could make bodies that were as fast or slow, as strong or weak, whatever they wanted. Kind of a moot point to put a number on it, isn't it? But, if you're going for strictly their "true" (as far as WE know) forms, then I think you called it well, except that I'd say their normal body was slower, more like 15 (which is why they normally didn't MOVE. Why walk when you can teleport?), and I'd bump the IQ up into the 50s. The OO were magic incarnate. They CREATED most of the types of magic that exist now. They were freakin BRILLIANT. Evil and horrible, yes. But brilliant nonetheless.

3) HP/SDC WAAAAY too low. Think how many beings were wiped out by these guys. Entire ARMIES of Gods ceased to exist. Think about the big battle of the Wild Lords. I'd say a nobody of an OO would have even more HP/SDC. I'd call it around 1 million HP, and another 12 million or so SDC. And for RIFTs, I'd convert that ALL 1 for 1 to MDC. And then I'd probably bump it up a notch.

4) natural ar: 18. EASILY. But, with all the bonuses and stuff that can be gotten with second edition, I'd probably bump that up to about a 20. Or even 23. Sure, they're HUGE, but, I mean, they're the OLD ONES!

5) PPE/ISP. I'd call it an even 2 million of each.


6) Skills: If there is a skill, he knows it. They were MASTERS of EVERYTHING. Sure, they all had their specialized field, but, they forgot more things than the rest of the megaverse has ever known.

7) Bio regen needs to be higher- that would have been one of the big problems in killing them. I'd say more like 1d20*10000 hp/sdc per round.

I'd say drop the save vs insanity bonus. The OO were whackjobs. At least, as far as we're concerned.

9) I'd bump the magic levels to 25, at least, 30 would be better. Also, I'd add in the rune magic, at level 20, and either diabolism or circle magic at 20.



Remember, EVERY deity in those books is scared about ANY of the OO waking up. Even a minor peon is going to be powerful enough that the gods are gonna get their butts WHOOPED. BAD. It's been said that even if a minor lesser OO were to wake up, consider the game over.

[The Beast]

Aside from the little the little bit on Sith, and write ups on Thoth I doubt the Old Ones will ever be statted out. Mainly because of what happened when The Lord of the Deep was written up as "unstoppable," but also because of the following:

1 = The Demon Planets. My collection is suffering because of going to Iraq and lack of players in my area, so I don't have the book that they're in. An Old One should be able to go toe-to-toe with one of these.

2 = The SDFs main weapons. No god, supernatural intelligence, or creature of equal or greater power should be able to be taken out that easily. I don't know if they were brought more in line with Phase World or not with the Shadow Chronicles.

3 = The Mulka. An Old One should be able to kill millions of these guys by itself. (In case you don't have Rifts: Manhunters, the Mulka have infinite PPE & ISP, know all magic & psionics, and are immune to all attacks, magic, & psionics. Now this was back in '94 [I think] and since then there have been some new things I've seen that, IMO, should harm a Mulka, but this is a topic for another thread.)