Why are they so tough?

[ronekiln]

You're right, you could be the marine sniper. In that case the GM will hopefully use common sense to modify the rules/bonuses on the fly. Now is that type of character meant to be the norm that the normal rule applies to? Isn't the anticipated normal PC supposed to be a fairly typical person thrust into very untypical situations? If you make up a bunch of hardened military vets then you're playing a very different game than DR is written for. Nothing wrong with that game, sounds fun. The rules aren't structured for it though.

One of the cool crazy aspects of a zombie invasion scenario isn't that the zombies are all that physically scary. They're psychologically scary. We are programed from birth to avoid violence and respect life by our society. I could literally carve through thousands of zombies with a top knotch bludgeon, but I never would unless the outbreak started far enough away from me that the authorities had time to declare open hunting season and I'd seen enough footage to convince me they were really zombies. I'm too scared I'd be killing real people. By the time I truly threw down and started killing them, I'd be surounded and under equipped to make a big difference. Others would just be terrified of the walking dead. So most of us get eaten before ever really putting up a proper fight regardless of training or physical capabilities.

The route that DR took to replicate that fear isn't the one I personally would hope for, but it sounds like it did the job well. If you don't want to play typical people, then you'll have to not use the rules relating to typical people. Or you can try to come up with a way of enforcing extreme HF effects on your players nonstop and ticking them off at every turn.

"Nu'uh, I wouldn't be too scared to react!"

[Trooper Jim]

Mmmmm.......... crow is yummy. So I broke down and bought this book, and I love it. The setting is cool. The art rocks. but I think the zombies are way to hard to hit. I don't mind the 17 to hit, but when I run the players will get to apply their bonuses. Along with any bonuses provided by the weapon (ie laser sights). I will also allow the damage from head shots to go straight to hit points. But other then that the game kicks butt.

[runebeo]

I think some should have have the odd missing limb or eye add include penalties to combat rolls, attacks and speed. The ones that risen after being partially eaten are going to be in a sad state.

[Nightbreed]

And really, how long can you keep yourself flush with ammunition? The game I've been reading through encourages players to use melee weapons because you WILL run out of ammo and most easily available firearms (9mm, .38 special, .22 APC) will just tickle your typical zombie, even with a headshot. A .45 APC does what... 4D6 damage. That's an average of 14 S.D.C inflicted. That's not even gonna phase a zombie even on a headshot.

The way i plan to run it is if the PCs do enough damage to the dome i consider the zombie one and done, but i do agree with you about making a "custard's last stand" against the horde. That will get you killed, unless you have a plan to somehow hold them off. The 17 called shot thing is just plain ridiculous IMHO, i play by the base rules of called shot 12 or over, 15 for small targets. My group always plays using this rule no matter what game we play. (Rifts, Chaos Earth, Heroes, etc.)

All in all, it's the usual "GM runs it as he/she sees fit".

[ScottBernard]

The goal is to keep moving, not kill zombies. The genre is SURVIVAL Horror, not Slaughter Horror. And slaughtered is what you'll be if you stand and fight. Something the game tries to get across that not many people in this thread seem to get is that you WILL be outnumbered. Not by a few... or a few dozen... but by hundreds, maybe thousands. Stand and fight, and you're boned. 17 to hit without bonuses isn't Kevin trying to screw the player characters, but Kevin trying to save the player characters' life. The Moan will attract zombies from ALL directions. You're standing there picking off zombies with the old 12 with a -3 + bonuses rule and all of a sudden you run out of ammo and there's ten THOUSAND zombies surrounding you because you weren't scared enough to start running earlier.

And really, how long can you keep yourself flush with ammunition? The game I've been reading through encourages players to use melee weapons because you WILL run out of ammo and most easily available firearms (9mm, .38 special, .22 APC) will just tickle your typical zombie, even with a headshot. A .45 APC does what... 4D6 damage. That's an average of 14 S.D.C inflicted. That's not even gonna phase a zombie even on a headshot.

Read the book... I mean really READ IT... It tells you to knock the zombies over and keep running! Your job as a Human Being is not to kill the zombies, it's to SURVIVE. Survive and make sure the species survives.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

What on earth is the point of that?

A game where I cant fight back, just keep running until eventually I get caught and killed.

Thats ridiculous. Id rather play cthulhu.

[Aku-Arkaine]

Has any of you considered using the optional Ranged Combat rules from Rifter #11

RC: Infantry, RC: Special Forces, and RC: Sniper all get a -2 to called shot at levels 14,13, and 6 respectively with RC: Sniper getting a further -2 (for a total -4) at level 12. I'm not giving normal bonuses the hit the head but I'll allow these when the players get there...eventually...if they live that long. This would lower the natural 17 to a natural 15 for head/neck, increasing your chance to at least a quarter of the time hitting the head. I interpret the zombies as having an overall A.R. of 14 but the nat 17 for the head representing the difficulty of the shot and not having anything to do with actually beating the A.R.

Plus, there are options like Snap Shot, Walking Aim, or even the RC: Sniper Head Shot. If you need something to equalize your zombie killin' then here's something ready-made.

[ghost2020]

Just let'em use P.P. bonus to ranged weapons (they get it for archaic anyway) and that should be ok.

[cornholioprime]

After reading some of the reviews and other posts, I don't think I will buy this game. I was really excited at first, but not so much now. I don't understand why the zombies are so damn tough individually. It has always been that the strength lies in numbers. Why does it take a natural 17 and almost 100 SDC to the head to kill a zed. How does that work, once you get turned does your skull mysteriously triple in thickness? Oh well sounds another example of power creep to me. I guess I will try to find a copy to thumb through, but with the zombies being so hard to kill, I doubt I could find anyone to play.

My belief (as in, I currently have no hard proof of it) is that Kevin and Co. are putting into Game Play terms just how hard it is to "kill" something when, in real life, things like Head Shots are only effective against living carbon-based lifeforms is because our brains IMMEDIATELY and temporarily shut down when they encounter trauma -with the living, One Shot will always and unfailingly result in One Unconscious Target if not One Kill.

Imagine how much harder it would be to "kill" you if

A]] Your brain did NOT just shut down from any old trauma

and

B]] The enemy needed to clear out the majority of your skull in order to stop you

and

C]] The simple fact of the matter is that MOST weapons don't automatically clean most of your brains out??
(No, really, I've seen gruesome pictures of suicides and murders, and even where a shotgun is involved at close range, sufficient destruction of the head is nowhere near a guarantee of success.)

THAT is the difficulty that Kevin was trying to engineer into the game. Now just add the fact that the Zombies will be coming at you at or near full normal human speed, twitching and lurching and reaching and 'dodging' your shots (by their erratic movements) and you can see why fighting these hordes isn't going to be a walk in the park....

[Sureshot]

Dead reign makes other zombie rpg's, like All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Look like small children playing at being grown ups.

Amost every RPG I have played has always had you roll a natural 20 with no bonuses added to hit vital spots.

The complaints about tough zombies and the head shots, really boils down to power gamers who played all flesh and dont want to lose the ability to mow down hoards of zombies per melee round.

See kids, it's quotes like these that make Palladium fans unwelcome on so many online forums.

There is no reason to insult the fans of AFMBE to promote Dead Reign.

Seconded. Not to mention that AFMBE has a system built into the core rules that allows you to custom build zombie with any type of customization you want. Dead Reign not as much imo. Good luck on Dead Reign dethroning AFMBE as the most popular zombie survival game. It's not going to happen anytime soon imo.

[dark brandon]

Dead reign makes other zombie rpg's, like All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Look like small children playing at being grown ups.

Amost every RPG I have played has always had you roll a natural 20 with no bonuses added to hit vital spots.

The complaints about tough zombies and the head shots, really boils down to power gamers who played all flesh and dont want to lose the ability to mow down hoards of zombies per melee round.

See kids, it's quotes like these that make Palladium fans unwelcome on so many online forums.

There is no reason to insult the fans of AFMBE to promote Dead Reign.

Seconded. Not to mention that AFMBE has a system built into the core rules that allows you to custom build zombie with any type of customization you want. Dead Reign not as much imo. Good luck on Dead Reign dethroning AFMBE as the most popular zombie survival game. It's not going to happen anytime soon imo.

Third. AFMBE is a standard of zombie games. DR just feels like a BTS source book (Which I believe CZ stated it originally was.) Both have their place and both will have fans.