Best Rifts Sniper?

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm almost tempted to ask how you target something smaller than the barrel of your weapon. (Boomgun)

Using fletchette rounds, no less.
Yet it's possible according to the book.

Not to mention the "pylon" factor against faster and more agile targets. Once you shoot those pylons into the ground, you're stuck.

No, not really. The pylons are only sunk for as long as it takes to fire your weapon.

[Colt47]

Boomguns remind me of the AK-74u in the fact that the munition has a range far exceeding the actual engagement distance of targets. It's got a range of over 3 miles. the only time I could see that kind of weapon using that range is from the air or at sea, where there is little obstruction.

[rat_bastard]

For me the best sniper is a well trained power armor Pilot in Naruni stealth power armor with a Naruni shoulder cannon, the optics and sensors on the suit give you long range awareness, the suit gives you a sizable prowl bonus and the Naruni shoulder cannon is simply the best off the shelf sniper rifle available in the three galaxies. Plus the extra attacks per round give you more chances to perform those all too important back of left knee aimed shots that make Sniping in rifts a worthwhile proposition.

[Library Ogre]

Boomguns remind me of the AK-74u in the fact that the munition has a range far exceeding the actual engagement distance of targets. It's got a range of over 3 miles. the only time I could see that kind of weapon using that range is from the air or at sea, where there is little obstruction.

It depends. It could also be used from an elevation, when you have a relatively clear view to a valley floor. The glitter boy, of course, would be a big, shiny, blotch of "shoot me", but the gun, itself, will work in that situation.

[The Galactus Kid]

....Even if it takes more then 2d6 to the head to kill the enemy, they just got nailed IN THE HEAD by an explosive round going at god knows what speed. Usually the target is disoriented after the first shot opening it up to more sniper fire...
And best kinetic sniper rifle? The Bandit 5000 big bore railgun. Even if the guy is wearing a helmet, if he is SDC his neck is getting snapped from that blast, which in Rifts usually means death. The only thing that particular strategy doesn't work on for SDC beings are Quebec Soldiers because the neck protector actually keeps the head from being jarred that much.

are these mechanics already in the Rifts game? I know the big bore knocks people over... but only the big bore and not other railguns right?

According to game mechanics, but not common sense. Different people play it differently in their games for precisely this reason.

[Killer Cyborg]

....Even if it takes more then 2d6 to the head to kill the enemy, they just got nailed IN THE HEAD by an explosive round going at god knows what speed. Usually the target is disoriented after the first shot opening it up to more sniper fire...
And best kinetic sniper rifle? The Bandit 5000 big bore railgun. Even if the guy is wearing a helmet, if he is SDC his neck is getting snapped from that blast, which in Rifts usually means death. The only thing that particular strategy doesn't work on for SDC beings are Quebec Soldiers because the neck protector actually keeps the head from being jarred that much.

are these mechanics already in the Rifts game? I know the big bore knocks people over... but only the big bore and not other railguns right?

There are knockdown rules for MD weapons based on damage.
None of them include a broken neck.

[Killer Cyborg]

Also, the best case scenario is that the GB can prevent his armor from sticking out like a sore and very shiny thumb; he can't actually blend, because he can't take the Camouflage skill.

For the sake of clarity, Camouflage can be taken as a Secondary Skill.

Also, out of curiosity, what difference does it make what HtH skill your sniper has? Surely you are not applying your HtH Strike skill to your ranged attacks?

As of RUE, yes, you are correct.

[Talavar]

Also, the best case scenario is that the GB can prevent his armor from sticking out like a sore and very shiny thumb; he can't actually blend, because he can't take the Camouflage skill.

For the sake of clarity, Camouflage can be taken as a Secondary Skill.

Also, to some of the other posters, what difference does it make what HtH skill your sniper has? Surely you are not applying your HtH Strike skill to your ranged attacks? If anything I would prefer Commando dor the Auto-Dodge, assuming the character in question is 5th level or higher.

Apologies for the Ninja-edits. Damn stream of conciousness. Lol.

Hand to Hand Assassin gives bonuses to hit with guns.

[Colt47]

....Even if it takes more then 2d6 to the head to kill the enemy, they just got nailed IN THE HEAD by an explosive round going at god knows what speed. Usually the target is disoriented after the first shot opening it up to more sniper fire...
And best kinetic sniper rifle? The Bandit 5000 big bore railgun. Even if the guy is wearing a helmet, if he is SDC his neck is getting snapped from that blast, which in Rifts usually means death. The only thing that particular strategy doesn't work on for SDC beings are Quebec Soldiers because the neck protector actually keeps the head from being jarred that much.

are these mechanics already in the Rifts game? I know the big bore knocks people over... but only the big bore and not other railguns right?

There are knockdown rules for MD weapons based on damage.
None of them include a broken neck.

Called it common sense. If the guy would normally get sent flying 8-10 feet from being hit on the main body by a explosive round, that same force hitting the head is going to cause the head to snap back violently before the kinetic energy goes to other parts of the body. Hence there is a good chance of just breaking the guys neck from the force unless the armor somehow protects the head from such an attack. In the best of scenarios the person shot with the round to the head would suffer severe head trauma, even with a protective helmet. Don't believe me? Take a look at similar types of high speed impacts. I've seen motorcyclists in neck castes from landing head first, having their heads snapped backwards, and then plummeting over on the ground. The kind of force being described by the weapon knock back is roughly equivalent to a SUV hitting a person at 45+ miles per hour, which give or take would knock a person back 7-12 feet depending on their body weight. Imagine that kind of force impacting the head first?

Holy crap, i'm getting bad images in my head. I mean, damn... the only thing keeping the person from having his head torn from the body is probably the MDC clamps holding the helmet on.

[Library Ogre]

Called it common sense. If the guy would normally get sent flying 8-10 feet from being hit on the main body by a explosive round, that same force hitting the head is going to cause the head to snap back violently before the kinetic energy goes to other parts of the body.

Simple enough. A head shot is normally double damage. However, shooting a suit of armor in the head isn't really going to damage it any more than shooting it in the leg. However, the transfer damage can still be doubled.

[Talavar]

Hand to Hand Assassin gives bonuses to hit with guns.

Since when? I've just re-read the HtH combat section in RUE, and there is no mention of any strike bonuses applying to ranged weapons. At least not that I can see, anyway.

My edition of RUE gives +1 to strike with guns at levels 8, 11 and 15 of HtH Assassin, pg. 348.

[Talavar]

would this mean joint locks and submissions could work against a target in MDC environmental armor?

I would say yes - just being in armour doesn't protect you from either of those combat moves. They're not going to hurt you, but they can certainly incapacitate you.

[Killer Cyborg]

There are knockdown rules for MD weapons based on damage.
None of them include a broken neck.

Called it common sense.

No.

If the guy would normally get sent flying 8-10 feet from being hit on the main body by a explosive round, that same force hitting the head is going to cause the head to snap back violently before the kinetic energy goes to other parts of the body.

Depends entirely on the structure of the armor, and how it works.
EBA has armor around the necks, for example.

With Non-EBA that doesn't have any sort of neck brace, you could call it common sense... but the rules clearly don't work that way.
Of all the rules for taking damage in MDC armor, none of it includes breaking necks or limbs.
Not from railgun blasts.
Not from explosions.
Not from falling a hundred feet or more.
Not from high-speed crashes.
Nada.

You can house-rule in that level of realism, but if you're going to do that you won't need that railgun to kill people in MDC armor. A .50 caliber round would do the trick. Maybe even a lesser round, depending on the situation.
A shotgun blast might do it.
A launched bean-bag would do it.
A Mega-damage punch or kick to the head would do it.
A high-strength SDC blow to the head would do it as well. Just a strong guy with a baseball bat or heavy club.
A mini-missile to the head, or even an SDC grenade from a launcher.

You can house-rule that sort of realism in, but it'll change the face of the entire game, because people in MDC armor will be pretty easy to kill.

Or you can assume that high-tech armor has built-in compensation, and magic armor has magical compensation.
(Low-tech MDC armor...? Well, it's probably best to just look the other way)

[Killer Cyborg]

would this mean joint locks and submissions could work against a target in MDC environmental armor?

I'd say that you could immobilize a person, but not break any limbs (or neck).
Look at how much the falling and high-speed impact damage is reduced; it's pretty clear that the armor protects you from having joints bent the wrong way.

[Colt47]

Most EBA doesn't have armor that helps protect the head from that kind of violent impact. the only exception I've seen is the Quebec body armor because of the way they have the armor built. But it's however you want to play the game. I prefer being able to actually realistically harm something when the situation would normally allow it, for others, it's a bunch of stats.

[Killer Cyborg]

Most EBA doesn't have armor that helps protect the head from that kind of violent impact.

... he guessed, apparently randomly....

[dark brandon]

Most EBA doesn't have armor that helps protect the head from that kind of violent impact. the only exception I've seen is the Quebec body armor because of the way they have the armor built. But it's however you want to play the game. I prefer being able to actually realistically harm something when the situation would normally allow it, for others, it's a bunch of stats.

Realism is for people who can't think creative.
/just kidding

[runebeo]

I think a Glitter Boy would make a great sniper. The boom gun has incredible range with a targeting computer to assist with aiming, real stopping power and if he fails to make the kill, he's tough enough to confront most threats face to face if needed. Sure the sonic boom is may give away your direction, yet also spread fear from the reputation of GB in general with a escape plan ready or hiding in the mud, underwater or having a tunnel dug where they can wait the enemy forces out. Sure some camouflage would be needed and I was thinking about a mossy rock look with a bush to conceal the rail gun. I don't think to many soldiers would be very eager to go tracking down a camouflaged GB.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think a Glitter Boy would make a great sniper. The boom gun has incredible range with a targeting computer to assist with aiming, real stopping power and if he fails to make the kill, he's tough enough to confront most threats face to face if needed. Sure the sonic boom is may give away your direction, yet also spread fear from the reputation of GB in general with a escape plan ready or hiding in the mud, underwater or having a tunnel dug where they can wait the enemy forces out. Sure some camouflage would be needed and I was thinking about a mossy rock look with a bush to conceal the rail gun. I don't think to many soldiers would be very eager to go tracking down a camouflaged GB.

The boom would not only give away your direction, it would make a visible impression on the area around you.

Last 4th of July, I got the opportunity to fire a Big Bertha .50 caliber rifle.
Just saying that it was loud is only part of the equation; there was a significant shockwave every time the gun was fired.
The first time I shot off a round, it felt like I had just fallen about a foot. I could feel the impact throughout my body.
We were shooting from the bed of a pickup truck, and on one of the shots, one of the guys was leaning against the side of the truck (back and to the left of the gun), and his hat was blown off by the shockwave.
Later, we were firing from the ground. This was in a large field, and we were in a mowed path that was 2-3 mower-widths wide, and the tall grass on either side kept getting shaken and knocked down by the blast as we fired.
Of course, a lot of this was simply due to the way the backblast was vented, but you could feel the shock each time.
This was with a weapon that, according to game terms, would inflict about 7d6 SDC, for an average of 24.5 points of damage.
The Boom Gun does an average of 10,500 points of SDC damage per shot, roughly 4,102 times more powerful.
The shockwave and back-blast isn't necessarily going to be proportionally more powerful, but this should convey a decent impression of the power of that *Boom* that the Boom Gun lets off.
And remember, there are jets on the back of the Glitter Boy that fire to compensate for recoil, and they're putting out enough thrust to cancel most of it. That means a lot of pressure on whatever those jets are pointing at.

So remember: that sonic boom isn't just noise; it's an explosion of physical force.
It'll deafen anybody within 200'.
It will shake buildings within 300' (shattering windows in the process).

Fire this weapon while you're in a forest, there's going to be a storm of leaves and foliage knocked loose each time you fire, and small plants bent over or swaying from the force.
Fire the weapon in a field or grassy area, and there's going to be a visible "splash," and a storm of grass and other loose debris flying around.

There's essentially a small explosion every time the weapon is fired, an explosion that will have visible effects for up to 300' (more, really; that's just the radius that buildings will be shaken).

[Talavar]

Most EBA doesn't have armor that helps protect the head from that kind of violent impact. the only exception I've seen is the Quebec body armor because of the way they have the armor built. But it's however you want to play the game. I prefer being able to actually realistically harm something when the situation would normally allow it, for others, it's a bunch of stats.

EBA armour is articulated so that joints can only move through a normal range of human motion; to break someone's neck you have to force the joints to move farther than that. Since the armour can't move that far, neither can the neck (or arm, etc.) inside. The best you could hope to do through the armour is give someone whiplash, or maybe a concussion.

Even then, MDC materials clearly have very high levels of absorption for kinetic impacts. Look at the rate of damage through MDC armour: 1 SDC for every 20 MDC of kinetic force, so it's pretty unlikely.

But if that's still how you want to play, I'd greatly fear those with supernatural or robotic strength - it's going to be way easier and faster for them to just start snapping people's necks through armour then actually try to break through that armour.

[The Galactus Kid]

I think a Glitter Boy would make a great sniper. The boom gun has incredible range with a targeting computer to assist with aiming, real stopping power and if he fails to make the kill, he's tough enough to confront most threats face to face if needed. Sure the sonic boom is may give away your direction, yet also spread fear from the reputation of GB in general with a escape plan ready or hiding in the mud, underwater or having a tunnel dug where they can wait the enemy forces out. Sure some camouflage would be needed and I was thinking about a mossy rock look with a bush to conceal the rail gun. I don't think to many soldiers would be very eager to go tracking down a camouflaged GB.

The boom would not only give away your direction, it would make a visible impression on the area around you.

Last 4th of July, I got the opportunity to fire a Big Bertha .50 caliber rifle.
Just saying that it was loud is only part of the equation; there was a significant shockwave every time the gun was fired.
The first time I shot off a round, it felt like I had just fallen about a foot. I could feel the impact throughout my body.
We were shooting from the bed of a pickup truck, and on one of the shots, one of the guys was leaning against the side of the truck (back and to the left of the gun), and his hat was blown off by the shockwave.
Later, we were firing from the ground. This was in a large field, and we were in a mowed path that was 2-3 mower-widths wide, and the tall grass on either side kept getting shaken and knocked down by the blast as we fired.
Of course, a lot of this was simply due to the way the backblast was vented, but you could feel the shock each time.
This was with a weapon that, according to game terms, would inflict about 7d6 SDC, for an average of 24.5 points of damage.
The Boom Gun does an average of 10,500 points of SDC damage per shot, roughly 4,102 times more powerful.
The shockwave and back-blast isn't necessarily going to be proportionally more powerful, but this should convey a decent impression of the power of that *Boom* that the Boom Gun lets off.
And remember, there are jets on the back of the Glitter Boy that fire to compensate for recoil, and they're putting out enough thrust to cancel most of it. That means a lot of pressure on whatever those jets are pointing at.

So remember: that sonic boom isn't just noise; it's an explosion of physical force.
It'll deafen anybody within 200'.
It will shake buildings within 300' (shattering windows in the process).

Fire this weapon while you're in a forest, there's going to be a storm of leaves and foliage knocked loose each time you fire, and small plants bent over or swaying from the force.
Fire the weapon in a field or grassy area, and there's going to be a visible "splash," and a storm of grass and other loose debris flying around.

There's essentially a small explosion every time the weapon is fired, an explosion that will have visible effects for up to 300' (more, really; that's just the radius that buildings will be shaken).

Not to mention the effect of the recoil suppression system jets.

[The Galactus Kid]

The Boom Gun and Naruni Shoulder Cannon are getting an awful lot of love in this duscussion. I just thought I'd chime in with a few more big guns...

Arkhon FRA-1 Flechette Autocannon: 1D4x10 with a single shot, 2D6x10+10 with a 10 round burst and 4,000 foot range.

Coalition CTT-P40 Particle Beam Cannon: 1D6x10, 2,000 foot range.

Coalition CTT-M20 Missile Rifle: Damage varies by missile, range is typically 1 mile.

Megaversal Legion HRP-1 Heavy Plasma Rifle: 1D6x10+10 per shot, 3,000 foot range.

Megaversal Legion H-11A 75mm Howitzer: Damage varies, but the armor-piercing round inflicts 2D4x10 to a three foot radius at a distance of 2,000 feet direct fire, 2 miles indirect.

Russian Belofsky Heavy Laser Cannon: 1D6x10+10 damage with 3,000 foot range.

Amaki ATL-7 Anti-Tank Laser Rifle: 3D6x10+20 damage with 3,000 foot range.

Cordoba/Santiago I-11 Long Gun: 1D6x10 damage with 4,000 foot range.

Octurill Charged Particle Ejector: 1D4x10 damage with 3,000 foot range.

Now a lot of those will fall under the heading of 'heavy weapons', but so is the modern Austrian Steyr AMR IWS-2000 firing a 15.2mm Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot round, the Croatian RT-20 firing the 20mm x 110mm Hispano round, the Finnish Helenius RK20 APH firing the 20mm x 99mm Russian-built round, and the South African Mechem NTW-20 which comes in 20mm x 83.5mm and 14.5mm x 114mm flavors.

For that matter, so is a Boom Gun.

I was re-reading phase world last nights and the CCW has a handful of great laser rifles which would be great here.

[runebeo]

Mystic Knight with a sniper rifle sure makes up for their lack of range with spells and using their spells for backup would really make them out shine a mundane sniper. Sure hope a real sniper O.C.C. with specialty skills get added to a source book somewhere down the road.

[Killer Cyborg]

For actual precision sniping weapons, maybe the ability to Death Blow (double damage, prevent bio-regeneration) would be viable to compete with giant honkin' death cannons.

Hm.
That's a pretty neat idea.

[Library Ogre]

Hi all, long time reader first time poster, just wanted to throw out my idea.

A phase adept sniper. Now this mainly focuses on the D-Shift Distance power to do all sorts of fun things with ranges and trajectories. The power write up already has a example of twisting space for the bullets to curve around objects and strike those behind. My thought is to take weapons that are nice and mean and give them crazy range. One example is the mini gun in Naruni 2. 4d6X10 MDC at 1,200 feet suddenly becomes 4d6 X 10 at 12,000 feet.

Something else that can tie into this power is actually expanding the blast wave of explosions, throw a fusion block at someone, using the power to make the toss go an additional X10 length, and then use the power again to make the explosion have X10 the radius. I am not sure if that one is possible though as it sounds like you might have to be the origin point for the shift (ie, you fold space between you and the target for gun, not between explosive and target).

Combine that with a phase beamer, and you don't even need them to take off their armor.

Not a bad thought.

[ShadowLogan]

The Psi-Slinger found in New West. They can take the sniper skill, they allready have Sharpshooting for Pistols (and the skill is available for others). Other skills appropriate can also be taken or already part of their OCC. Their Psychic Weapon ability allows them to turn an SDC firearm they are linked to into a MD weapon w/o effecting the weapon's range.

Some Glitterboys variants are good for sniping:
Old Style Glitter Boy-MK IV variant w/PB-20 found in "Mutants in Orbit" p.68 range and power are comparable to the Boomgun, its an energy weapon so it negates the Boomgun liability. Even bigger range in space.

"Point" AND/OR "Hawkeye" Glitterboy variants w/AT-5000 Laser Rifle found in "Rifts Japan" p.137-42. Range and power are not the same, but the laser negates the Boomgun liability. The "Point" is even equiped with camo paint for scouting missions so the chrome liability is not present until damaged.

Glitterboy's Glittergirl variant w/QST-104 Cannon found in "Rifts: Free Quebec" p. 87-91. The gun is designed for sniping (stated), it doesn't have the same range or power as the classic boomgun, but it doesn't present the same liability either. Plus it can be remote controlled and can carry two of them.

The Glitterboy's SilverWolf variant w/QST-188 found in Rifts: Free Quebec" p.101-103. Sniping is a stated function of the weapon, more power than the QST-104, but an even smaller range.

[runebeo]

The Psi-Slinger found in New West. They can take the sniper skill, they allready have Sharpshooting for Pistols (and the skill is available for others). Other skills appropriate can also be taken or already part of their OCC. Their Psychic Weapon ability allows them to turn an SDC firearm they are linked to into a MD weapon w/o effecting the weapon's range.

Some Glitterboys variants are good for sniping:
Old Style Glitter Boy-MK IV variant w/PB-20 found in "Mutants in Orbit" p.68 range and power are comparable to the Boomgun, its an energy weapon so it negates the Boomgun liability. Even bigger range in space.

"Point" AND/OR "Hawkeye" Glitterboy variants w/AT-5000 Laser Rifle found in "Rifts Japan" p.137-42. Range and power are not the same, but the laser negates the Boomgun liability. The "Point" is even equiped with camo paint for scouting missions so the chrome liability is not present until damaged.

Glitterboy's Glittergirl variant w/QST-104 Cannon found in "Rifts: Free Quebec" p. 87-91. The gun is designed for sniping (stated), it doesn't have the same range or power as the classic boomgun, but it doesn't present the same liability either. Plus it can be remote controlled and can carry two of them.

The Glitterboy's SilverWolf variant w/QST-188 found in Rifts: Free Quebec" p.101-103. Sniping is a stated function of the weapon, more power than the QST-104, but an even smaller range.

Glitter Boy 7 from South America has a nice selection of weapon systems, that doesn't need the pylon system to fire or the drawback of the GB sonic boom and looks so damn cool.

[Colt47]

Shouldn't sniper rifles be kind of limited to weapons that are actually manageable by a man sized person? Everyone is pointing to the biggest and most damaging single shot weapons available when those are not always suitable for the situation of sniping. A good sniper rifle should have a few features going for it:

1. A sniper rifle should be collapsible into component parts and light weight.
2. Easy to disguise and bring into red zones such as heavily defended positions or areas with high weapons regulations.
3. Be capable of taking out whatever target the sniper has been assigned to deal with in a single shot.
4. Disposable if the situation arises where the weapon has to be left behind.

So far all the weapons I've been seeing are big ass cannons that will definitely take out a target in a single shot but what KIND of target? Are you aiming for a tank or a human being? Second, most of the weapons being listed are big, impossible to conceal devices such as the Coalitions particle beam weapon or a Naruni Shoulder cannon. Those guns are as big as a human being and would take an engineer just to assemble or disassemble. Then you have to also get it past red zones which would be virtually impossible. Plus I don't think anyone here has ever heard of a sniper using a wire guided missile to take out someone, though I've heard of people using those to take out armored vehicles. Finally, those weapons cost a **** ton of money and are hardly something someone would call disposable.

Everyones choice thus far has been for field duty sniping against heavy armor. That is fine, but there are other situations that a sniper may have to get into where those weapons wouldn't be the correct choice, plus not all sniping situations are out on the field. Sometimes sniping happens in cities as well with high regulations on mega-damage weapons and armor for non-military personnel.

I admit that I wrote that the GiGi's rifle was a good sniper rifle, too, however after reading about the whole spectrum of situations a sniper has to get into that would not be the weapon of choice. Honestly the only weapon that might fit the bill at the moment is the northern gun mega crossbow. It's non-magical, completely silent, has simple construction, and excellent range. It can use a variety of ammo depending on the situation, such as heavy explosive bolts for armor cracking, SD bolts for shooting unarmored targets, MD bolts for taking out light MDC objects, and various chemically treated bolts for other operations, such as knocking a target out and taking the target back alive.

[Colt47]

With the number of detection methods available, magic items are not exactly covert unless dealing with a group that doesn't have any means to counter magic, like Quebec. I wonder if it's possible to have a non-charged energy magazine taken apart and put back together again.

[Mouser13]

My favorite weapon was the Kittani energy lance +2 stike great range ok damage and recharges. Being a munckin I have C-10 laser scope mounted on it for extra +3 to strike.

[runebeo]

Pretty sure this was an optional rule to help keep S.D.C. characters alive and the GM can use his discretion on weather damage carries overs. My group rolls for it with 50% chance on penetration seems to makes more sense this way.

[glitterboy2098]

Shouldn't sniper rifles be kind of limited to weapons that are actually manageable by a man sized person? Everyone is pointing to the biggest and most damaging single shot weapons available when those are not always suitable for the situation of sniping. A good sniper rifle should have a few features going for it:

1. A sniper rifle should be collapsible into component parts and light weight.
2. Easy to disguise and bring into red zones such as heavily defended positions or areas with high weapons regulations.
3. Be capable of taking out whatever target the sniper has been assigned to deal with in a single shot.
4. Disposable if the situation arises where the weapon has to be left behind.

these are ideal for an assassins rifle, but not all of these are required to be a good sniper's weapon.

you have to pick the type of sniping your doing and the enviroment your in.

military snipers focus on accuracy and range, since they are marksmen who need to be able to take out a target from positions where they can stay concealed, and escape from the enemy once they've taken their shots. they tend to go for heavier calibres for this reason, since these tend to have better effective ranges. there is no need for the weapon to be dispoable or break down into parts, though portability and durability is certainly a factor for most, as they might be in the field for some time.

urban snipers, like with SWAT teams, operate at much closer ranges, so longer range is not a major factor. accuracy generally is, since they often have to deal with situations where an errant shot could hit a hostage or cause collateral damage. uusally these are lighter weapons optimized for marksmanship. likewise these are usually more fragile than militray sniper weapons, as an urban marksman rarely has to be delpoyed in the field for days at a time, nor has to move around often while performing their job.

in neither case is "one shot kill" a neccessity, although it is a plus in the case of the military sniper. rarely in military or urban sniping is the mission to instant kill. inflicting wounds (fatal or not) will result in a unit being pinned down, demoralized, or otherwise hindered. a military sniper team's mission is predominantly to scout, secondly to support other units by harrassing the enemy. a SWAT sniper's goal is generally to disable the target, so that the SWT team or police can move in and arrest the target(s) and rescue any hostages or victims.

personally, any weapon attached to a powered armor i would generally not consider a sniper weapon. PA is generally large and hard to conceal. and many of their weapons are optimized for anti-vehicle work and not anti-infantry. a rifle with longer than average range would certainly be a potential marksman weapon, as would any with increased chances of hitting through design.

[Killer Cyborg]

in neither case is "one shot kill" a neccessity, although it is a plus in the case of the military sniper. rarely in military or urban sniping is the mission to instant kill. inflicting wounds (fatal or not) will result in a unit being pinned down, demoralized, or otherwise hindered. a military sniper team's mission is predominantly to scout, secondly to support other units by harrassing the enemy.

Exactly.
People constantly say stuff like, "being a sniper means one-shot, one kill!" but killing isn't what defines a sniper.
A sniper is somebody who fires a rifle at the enemy from a concealed position.
Accuracy is important, but killing is not (although, as you say, it can be nice at times).

Take out their vehicles.
Take out their guns.
Take out their arms and legs.
Damage their armor.
Keep the enemy pinned in one location.

In most cases, any or all of these things would fit with the standard role of a sniper; to harass and impede the enemy.
Any or all of the above could completely ruin an enemy mission, and taking a life might not even be necessary (though some deaths might occur from blood loss when you take out an arm or leg.

[rat_bastard]

Best sniper I could think of was this:

4th level Cyber Knight in Naruni Stealth Power armor with the following weapons:

Naruni Shoulder cannon for anti-materials sniping
WI 15mm Sniper rifle for anti-supernatural and targets that require a solid impact and sdc targets
Wilk's laser Designator for missile/artillery Strikes

required Skills:
WP Rifle
WP E-rifle
Heavy Energy Weapons
Sniping
Boxing
Prowl
Pilot: Power Armor
Power Armor Combat Basic
Power Armor Combat Advanced Naruni Stealth Armor
Optic Systems
Sensory Equipment

Ok, at 4th level you would have a Prowl of 70% bare minimum, not including generous bonuses from skills like Gymnastics and acrobatics, Plus your armor masks any energy emissions so good luck spotting you with thermal vision, your pretty damn good at hiding.

Second you have 9 attacks! That means you can make 3 aimed shots on your surprise round. Most robot Vehicles can be crippled by three carefully chosen shots by a Naruni shoulder cannon.

Third is counter sniping, your Cyber Knight Zen combat makes you aware of any attempt to target you. After 6th level you can blind sensors that are trying to find you.

So to round it all up, you have all of the stealth, combat and vision enhancement abilities granted by your power armor, awareness of people spotting you and the ability to blind attempts to spot you.

and a damn good gun.

awesome.

[The Galactus Kid]

Best sniper I could think of was this:

4th level Cyber Knight in Naruni Stealth Power armor with the following weapons:

Naruni Shoulder cannon for anti-materials sniping
WI 15mm Sniper rifle for anti-supernatural and targets that require a solid impact and sdc targets
Wilk's laser Designator for missile/artillery Strikes

required Skills:
WP Rifle
WP E-rifle
Heavy Energy Weapons
Sniping
Boxing
Prowl
Pilot: Power Armor
Power Armor Combat Basic
Power Armor Combat Advanced Naruni Stealth Armor
Optic Systems
Sensory Equipment

Ok, at 4th level you would have a Prowl of 70% bare minimum, not including generous bonuses from skills like Gymnastics and acrobatics, Plus your armor masks any energy emissions so good luck spotting you with thermal vision, your pretty damn good at hiding.

Second you have 9 attacks! That means you can make 3 aimed shots on your surprise round. Most robot Vehicles can be crippled by three carefully chosen shots by a Naruni shoulder cannon.

Third is counter sniping, your Cyber Knight Zen combat makes you aware of any attempt to target you. After 6th level you can blind sensors that are trying to find you.

So to round it all up, you have all of the stealth, combat and vision enhancement abilities granted by your power armor, awareness of people spotting you and the ability to blind attempts to spot you.

and a damn good gun.

awesome.

Now pick a race for that Cyber-knight. Also, where do you find the rules for the surprise round? Or is that something that you use in your games? I would sy that you get a surprise ACTION and not a whole round.

[rat_bastard]

Best sniper I could think of was this:

4th level Cyber Knight in Naruni Stealth Power armor with the following weapons:

Naruni Shoulder cannon for anti-materials sniping
WI 15mm Sniper rifle for anti-supernatural and targets that require a solid impact and sdc targets
Wilk's laser Designator for missile/artillery Strikes

required Skills:
WP Rifle
WP E-rifle
Heavy Energy Weapons
Sniping
Boxing
Prowl
Pilot: Power Armor
Power Armor Combat Basic
Power Armor Combat Advanced Naruni Stealth Armor
Optic Systems
Sensory Equipment

Ok, at 4th level you would have a Prowl of 70% bare minimum, not including generous bonuses from skills like Gymnastics and acrobatics, Plus your armor masks any energy emissions so good luck spotting you with thermal vision, your pretty damn good at hiding.

Second you have 9 attacks! That means you can make 3 aimed shots on your surprise round. Most robot Vehicles can be crippled by three carefully chosen shots by a Naruni shoulder cannon.

Third is counter sniping, your Cyber Knight Zen combat makes you aware of any attempt to target you. After 6th level you can blind sensors that are trying to find you.

So to round it all up, you have all of the stealth, combat and vision enhancement abilities granted by your power armor, awareness of people spotting you and the ability to blind attempts to spot you.

and a damn good gun.

awesome.

Now pick a race for that Cyber-knight. Also, where do you find the rules for the surprise round? Or is that something that you use in your games? I would sy that you get a surprise ACTION and not a whole round.

Could be just about anything really... Flooper would be funny but I doubt you could floop your power armor.

[The Galactus Kid]

Whats the odds of getting a shot off with this 50 cal sniper rifle from a few miles out with no scope, and in a standing position ready to run? Well with my beat insurmountable odds spell, it could actually be pretty good...

hahaha. Awesome. Thats how Oswald did it.

[Subjugator]

I'm almost tempted to ask how you target something smaller than the barrel of your weapon. (Boomgun) Not to mention the "pylon" factor against faster and more agile targets. Once you shoot those pylons into the ground, you're stuck.

The barrel of the gun is not larger than a person's head. The shell is only 7" long (check out the pictures in RUE and RMB) and it's caliber/gauge is less than a third of that, so really, it's not that big. The pylon factor is not that big of a deal. They go in and out of the ground like a knife stabbing a can of Crisco (with rare exceptions) - you're not stuck.

As far as weapons go, against lower MD or SDC targets, I submit that the best weapon is the gun from Dinosaur Swamp that gives a natural bonus of +2 to hit.
Anyone who formerly had a crit on 18-20 now crits on 16-20 and even rolls a natural frickin' 20 on 18-20.

For big weapons, I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the ATL-7 (or whatever it's called - the monster gun from South America).

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Called it common sense. If the guy would normally get sent flying 8-10 feet from being hit on the main body by a explosive round, that same force hitting the head is going to cause the head to snap back violently before the kinetic energy goes to other parts of the body. Hence there is a good chance of just breaking the guys neck from the force unless the armor somehow protects the head from such an attack. In the best of scenarios the person shot with the round to the head would suffer severe head trauma, even with a protective helmet. Don't believe me? Take a look at similar types of high speed impacts. I've seen motorcyclists in neck castes from landing head first, having their heads snapped backwards, and then plummeting over on the ground. The kind of force being described by the weapon knock back is roughly equivalent to a SUV hitting a person at 45+ miles per hour, which give or take would knock a person back 7-12 feet depending on their body weight. Imagine that kind of force impacting the head first?

Holy crap, i'm getting bad images in my head. I mean, damn... the only thing keeping the person from having his head torn from the body is probably the MDC clamps holding the helmet on.

Actually, common sense would dictate that there would be little or no damage to one's neck if one was shot in the head by a bullet as described.

The total force that a bullet will express when striking a person is the same force transferred to the weapon when it is fired. Unless there is a recoil dampener on the weapon, the bullet strikes the target when the same amount of energy as the butt of the gun when it compresses into your shoulder.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Also, the best case scenario is that the GB can prevent his armor from sticking out like a sore and very shiny thumb; he can't actually blend, because he can't take the Camouflage skill.

For the sake of clarity, Camouflage can be taken as a Secondary Skill.

Also, to some of the other posters, what difference does it make what HtH skill your sniper has? Surely you are not applying your HtH Strike skill to your ranged attacks? If anything I would prefer Commando dor the Auto-Dodge, assuming the character in question is 5th level or higher.

Apologies for the Ninja-edits. Damn stream of conciousness. Lol.

Hand to Hand Assassin gives bonuses to hit with guns.

Where does it say ordinary strike bonuses do not apply to ranged attacks? Yes, Assassin gives differing bonuses to strike with guns, but that doesn't necessarily mean (it can, but does not have to) that the other bonuses don't apply to guns. It could mean that the specific bonuses in question (i.e. given at that specific level) apply specifically to HtH or to guns.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Hand to Hand Assassin gives bonuses to hit with guns.

Since when? I've just re-read the HtH combat section in RUE, and there is no mention of any strike bonuses applying to ranged weapons. At least not that I can see, anyway.

Correct - it just gives bonuses to *strike* - not exclusive of ranged attacks.

/Sub

[Mech-Viper Prime]

depends on what the target is , from what i gathered a few only grasp what sniper truly does

[Subjugator]

Oh yeah, and a Glitter Boy can be camouflaged easily. Here are several methods:

1. Spray paint the armor and then use a Naruni force field to prevent incidental scrapes.
2. Have a mage use chameleon/shadow meld/invisibility (or invisibility superior) and globe of silence on the gun.
3. The best one that I can think of is a combination of the three. Spray paint it, add the Naruni force field, and then TW up the GB as follows:

a. Invisibility Superior on the armor - one could argue that if one does not leave footprints that the boom gun shock wave might also be suppressed
b. Modified CoA on the feet so it no longer needs the foot drills.
c. Globe of silence on the gun - no audible boom from the gun itself. I wonder if one could also put it on an individual round.

Put a psionic GB pilot in there, and he's OK to shoot from concealment. Invisibility/Superior would work even better, but that's a starting point anyway.

Just an idea.

/Sub

[rat_bastard]

Best sniper I could think of was this:

4th level Cyber Knight in Naruni Stealth Power armor with the following weapons:

Naruni Shoulder cannon for anti-materials sniping
WI 15mm Sniper rifle for anti-supernatural and targets that require a solid impact and sdc targets
Wilk's laser Designator for missile/artillery Strikes

required Skills:
WP Rifle
WP E-rifle
Heavy Energy Weapons
Sniping
Boxing
Prowl
Pilot: Power Armor
Power Armor Combat Basic
Power Armor Combat Advanced Naruni Stealth Armor
Optic Systems
Sensory Equipment

Ok, at 4th level you would have a Prowl of 70% bare minimum, not including generous bonuses from skills like Gymnastics and acrobatics, Plus your armor masks any energy emissions so good luck spotting you with thermal vision, your pretty damn good at hiding.

Second you have 9 attacks! That means you can make 3 aimed shots on your surprise round. Most robot Vehicles can be crippled by three carefully chosen shots by a Naruni shoulder cannon.

Third is counter sniping, your Cyber Knight Zen combat makes you aware of any attempt to target you. After 6th level you can blind sensors that are trying to find you.

So to round it all up, you have all of the stealth, combat and vision enhancement abilities granted by your power armor, awareness of people spotting you and the ability to blind attempts to spot you.

and a damn good gun.

awesome.

A good sniper concept except for one thing. It is the rare Cyber Knight who would go against his Code of Chivalry to snipe someone. Remember sniping is not honorable nor does it involve fair play. A sniper is killing someone who never sees it coming, much like an assassin using poison or a knife in the back. Pretty much only the most evil despoiler would probably use sniping as a tactic.

yeah like morality ever stopped anyone...

I concede your point but fear the fallen cyber knight who has decided that his long arm is a better weapon than his swords.

[rat_bastard]

Gee Lobo you speak with allot of absolutes...

[Subjugator]

The armor would still stand out on thermal like a shining beacon. Also on radar. Motion detectors would sense it moving into position as well as when the gun was fired.

Not with invisibility superior it wouldn't. Also, most thermo imaging doesn't go to 11K feet.

Not to mention even with camo paint a big hulking power armor would stand (literally since it's 'standing') out like a sore thumb against it's surroundings.

It is assumed that it would be standing in or on something that would be surrounding it, like leaves or the like.

The invis superior would help it get in position but as soon as it fired it would drop and reveal the target, visually and on sensors. The sound would not be supressed by the invis.

1. It would have to be refreshed immediately after it fired.
2. The sound would be partially suppressed by the invisibility, however, that is why I said to put globe of silence around the boom gun. THAT would suppress the sound.

Globe of silence on the gun might not work. Per the rules on the TW silencer (which uses globe of silence) it will not function for rail guns. Whether a globe of silence on the power armor itself would work is up to the GM. The round probabaly creates the sonic boom once it's left the 10 foot radius and the gun itself would chew up most of that 10 foot radius.

While virtually all bullets create a sonic boom when fired, the biggest noise takes place when they leave the barrel of the gun. In what book is the TW silencer? I'll take a look, but even then all you'd need to do is cast GoS on the gun rather than enchanting it with it.

[quot]eThe sonic boom would create all kinds of turbulence (dust/debris flying everywhere and nearby objects like trees and buildings shaking) in the surrounding area which would be like a beacon that says 'the shot came from here!'. I don't see any way to keep that from happening. [/quote]

At 11K feet, the sound would take approximately 9.74 seconds to arrive at the target. Naturally, the shell would take about 1/5 to 1/7 of that time - so call that part 1.5 seconds for the shell After that, there would be at least one or two seconds of surprise, followed by them looking around to see the effects of the firing, which, by the way, happened three and a half seconds ago and would therefore have no further visual shock wave effect, is over two miles away, and is camouflaged by paint and magic while standing in vegetation.

To put it differently, make lightning only visible by its point of impact, have it strike nearby, and then gauge its point of origin by sound.

Basically per that description the Glitter boy would at best be able to get in position to make the shot but then be instantly revealed which will likely result in a dead Glitter Boy as it's swarmed by the target's comrades/security. Glitter Boys require support or they are pretty vulnerable, much like any 'tank'.

Wrong. Per that description, the person inside would have to reactivate invisibility/superior on the armor in the action he has after firing and then move away as quickly as possible.

Snipers avoid this by being undetected even after the shot. Until you can overcome all the glaring faults that make a Glitter Boy and it's gun very detectable, they make lousy snipers. Great Fire support and 'dedicated marksman' but terrible snipers.

By your definition, our current snipers are lousy, since they are detectable by thermal imaging, do not use silent weaponry, and are slow to escape after firing. The GB doesn't have most of those weaknesses.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

After it fires it would. Also it would pop up on Radar.

It would...for a couple of seconds. After that, it could go invisible again and high tail it out of there. Once Invis/Sup is on it, it's not on radar or any other form of detection.

Ok so I am guessing you are not saying it's standing in an 11 foot tall pile of leaves LOL but rather that it's standing among some big brush like trees or tall bushes. So if it did that then when I said the Boom would cause a massive shaking of nearby debris and trees that would only be made worse because it's standing in them. Trust me I have been around large cannons firing from concealed woodland areas, once they fire once there is no more concealment and the massive movement of the surrounding vegetation and the cloud of dust kicked up will mark that area for a good 10-15 seconds.

The most I've experienced with the big stuff is video. *shrug* It'd cause shaking - that's stipulated - but it wouldn't cause it for all that long and not so much as to be easily seen at two miles.

1. Takes time and the movement caused by the sonic boom would easily draw people's peripheral vision to the area before they could finish.
2. The spell description states the spell drops the instant a hostile action is initiated (pulled the trigger) therefore the spell would be down before the boom.

I suppose it could be radio activated - that'd prevent the spell from going off as the person inside the armor would not be performing the hostile action. Also, as I said, globe of silence would silence the boom.

Bullets create the loud bang from rapidly expanding/escaping gases leaving the barrel

Correct.

the actual sonic boom from the bullet is usually created somewhere downrange which is why Snipers who want more silence must use what's called sub-sonic ammo(the bullet whizzes along at just under the speed of sound) otherwise the suppressor only limits the sound of the expanding gasses.

I'm aware of this - that's why the MP5SD5 uses sub-sonic 9mm ammo. No idea why they didn't use .45 cal ammo for it, as it's subsonic. That's also why I said that almost all ammo is hypersonic...some isn't. Either way, the sonic boom generated by a small object (say, the flechettes) would be relatively small.

I listed the page number above when I posted my ideal sniper set-up. The spell might be able to stop the sound but since the TW Silencer states it can't be used on rail guns I would imagine that you can't just enchant a rail gun with globe of silence either. You could add it to the Glitter Boy itself but then there is only a 10' radius and the gun is damn near 10' long by itself. The Boom gun seems to be a different beast than propellant bullets however, from what I have been able to glean is that it achieves the sonic boom speeds right in front of the glitter boy which contributes partly to it's need for stabilization. To me that would probably put at least part of the sonic boom's radius outside the 10' radius of the globe of silence.

The TW silencer said that rail guns cannot be enchanted with it - it doesn't say that the spell globe of silence doesn't work on rail guns. I'm not trying to eliminate the little boom of the flechettes passing through the air, but the big one of them leaving the barrel.

At Mach 5 it would be 1/5th the time of travel as the sound of the BOOM. However the speed of light means that people will see the disruption, shock effect and possibly appearing glitter boy before the round even hits.

I'll tell you what, you have a friend stand two miles away, and you get ten more of your other friends to throw up hands full of flour in the air while ten others shake nearby vegetation, and we'll see if your friend can see it. I'm betting he could not. Now, he'd appear on radar, but in that moment, the radar operator would say, 'What's that?" After that, it'd disappear again. He'd be trying to figure it out while his friends would would then see their friend has been shot. After that, they'd hear and look around.

Peripheral vision easily keys on movement and I guarantee when that sonic boom happens it will look like something exploded right on top of you.

Unlikely.

Here is a video of 155mm howitzers firing. They are accelerating a much more massive projectile that is also much larger in dimensions (thereby causing a greater sonic boom), and you don't even so much as see the grass move.

People's head's will turn and say 'you see tha..' then someone's body will explode in a gory mess and they will all start seeking cover and shouting 'SNIPER! Up over there!" and pointing in your general direction.

Two miles is a long way.

Like I said before speed of light will key people into the area fired from before they can reactivate the spell.

Only if they happen to be looking there with enhanced vision at the time of the firing.

However once it's activated they would have a very good shot at escape unless they were disturbing lots of vegetation on the way out (which means if they were moving at anything faster than 1-2 MPH they would, especially for an 11 foot tall robot). The spell may prevent a lot of things but you are not ethereal as the description states, opening doors, slapping branches aside, running through bushes would all reveal your position according to the description, you would not reappear but people could say 'hey who opened that door' or 'look at all those bushes and branches move'.

Again, the bot has been painted - it also would have invis superior reactivated. It'd be getting out of that bunch of vegetation at about 30mph. Once out, it'd move at or near 60mph. And he'd be two miles away when he started running. You seem to think people have the most incredible vision ever heard of. "Hey - look there...a mile and a half away! It's Joey!"

/Sub

I grant you the invis would make it harder to track you but if you were foolish and just started running off at 60MPH in a forested area you would leave a trail to find you. Not foot prints but broken branches, small knocked over trees and torn up brush would be seen(remember you're not ethereal). Once your general area is pinned down see invis will reveal you or your invis will just run out before you can get out of the area(you won't have endless PPE/ISP to power it).

Snipers avoid this by being undetected even after the shot. Until you can overcome all the glaring faults that make a Glitter Boy and it's gun very detectable, they make lousy snipers. Great Fire support and 'dedicated marksman' but terrible snipers.

By your definition, our current snipers are lousy, since they are detectable by thermal imaging, do not use silent weaponry, and are slow to escape after firing. The GB doesn't have most of those weaknesses.

/Sub

I am not sure who you mean by "our current snipers". If you meant the one I posted, it has a very low % chance of being detected by thermal, used silent weapons, and unless you can teleport/phase/shape change there really is no fast way to escape(not even invis unless you had invis and flight). The goal is to go undetected after the shot so they have to search in a area that covers square miles not yards. That way you can creep back out of the huge search area. Something you can't do if they can pinpoint your general area.

You're also stating that you GB would be in forested cover but 2 miles away from your target. That's a very ideal shooting situation where you are under cover of forest but your target is out in the open (no buildings, hills, valleys or forested area to get in your way). No way can you be 2 miles away and still get a clear shot at someone in a natural forest. Your basketball sized cloud of flechettes would have to have to obliterate a lot of foliage along the way (revealing your general locale). Most forested shots like that would be 1/10 to 1/4 that distance. And then the sniper would have to creep along his shot path to clear a field of fire with some clippers, cutting branches and bushes and the like. I'd hate to have to think how much you'd have to clear to cover 2 miles LOL. Your target must be glued to the ground if he never moves in the time it would take you to clear that much foliage haha or you're out there with a giant silenced chain saw felling trees and cutting swathes through underbrush without notice haha.

You have come up with lots of ways to make a glitter boy harder to detect but the whole sonic boom disturbing the area around you is still a dead giveaway. I have included a link to a video of a tank firing. It kicks up a huge cloud of dust that takes about 10-15 seconds to dissipate (which was right on with how I remembered it haha).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42t4FBJMvp4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dtank%2Bfiring%26fr%3Dyfp-t-501%26toggle%3D1%26cop%3Dmss%26ei%3DUTF-8&feature=player_embedded[/quote]

[Subjugator]

I have included a link to a video of a tank firing. It kicks up a huge cloud of dust that takes about 10-15 seconds to dissipate (which was right on with how I remembered it haha).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42t4FBJMvp4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dtank%2Bfiring%26fr%3Dyfp-t-501%26toggle%3D1%26cop%3Dmss%26ei%3DUTF-8&feature=player_embedded

Yeah - if you stand in a pile of dust and fire it, dust will kick up. As I said though, he'd be standing in vegetation. I showed what happens when a gun 50mm larger than what I assume is on that tank is fired when in vegetation. A big boom and a little cloud - a lot of which is from the powder itself, which isn't a problem with this gun.

/Sub

[Killer Cyborg]

I have included a link to a video of a tank firing. It kicks up a huge cloud of dust that takes about 10-15 seconds to dissipate (which was right on with how I remembered it haha).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42t4FBJMvp4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dtank%2Bfiring%26fr%3Dyfp-t-501%26toggle%3D1%26cop%3Dmss%26ei%3DUTF-8&feature=player_embedded

Yeah - if you stand in a pile of dust and fire it, dust will kick up. As I said though, he'd be standing in vegetation. I showed what happens when a gun 50mm larger than what I assume is on that tank is fired when in vegetation. A big boom and a little cloud - a lot of which is from the powder itself, which isn't a problem with this gun.

/Sub

If he stands in vegetation, there will still be visible movement when he fires.
If nothing else, there are those jets on back that fire to compensate.

The entire argument is moot, though, because the Glitterboy simply isn't a sniper, no matter how effective. It's artillery. You couldn't logically call a Glitterboy pilot a sniper any more than you could call a tank pilot a sniper. The title doesn't fit.

[Subjugator]

He probably would see it if he was a trained soldier, especially if he was a dedicated marksman which go through partial sniper training so as to counteract snipers. Since most units have dedicated marksmen I would imagine your opponent in war would probably have trained people too. Unless you were sniping dumb monsters and then well anything could be a great sniper against the equivalent of Buffaloes hehe.

OK - if you're going to say that trained soldiers will see minor movement at two miles, then I'm done with the conversation after this post. A person who will not admit to being wrong to that degree isn't worth arguing with.

Yeah likely. Soldiers are always harped on in training to swivel their heads because peripheral vision is so good at picking up movement. I also know that many units are taught to always engage in slow movements and avoid fast movements that might attract someone's peripheral vision when they are trying to be stealthy.

At two miles, the movement of the trees will not be visible to the naked eye.

All they are shooting is light smoke canisters haha. That's a very small boom. And they are not actually in the vegetation like you stated. I have seen howitzers fire when concealed among trees and it moves the area surrounding it. I tried to find a good video, only found one decent quality video concealed among trees though. At about 1:25 sec in they start firing. You can clearly see trees and brush several feet away shaking wildly.

No, actually I didn't see them shaking wildly. I went through it repeatedly, pausing to see if I could see them shaking *wildly*. I saw them shake mildly.

Besides you never did explain why you're always 2 miles away. Just because a glitter boy can fire from that far does not mean it can get a clear shot from that far(especially with a gun it's size).

Irrelevant. My situation calls for him shooting from two miles away. If he's not, then the situation gets better for others.

Usually only very flat terrain unobstructed by vegetation/hills/valleys/buildings would allow for shots that long. Most woodland terrain (where your glitter boy is firing from in your example) would be lucky to get 1000 yards.

I was referring to a stand of vegetation rather than a forest.

They don't need enhanced vision to see the movement in a general area. Once their peripheral vision keys them into the general area they can pull out vision enhancing tools to get a better look. Tonight some friends and I went to a movie at our local mall. Right as we left the movie, I saw some movement out of the corner of my eye and turned my head. Across the parking lot some guys were fighting. So I pointed them out to my friends. At that distance none of us could make out enough details besides color of skin/clothes and that they were male. But it is a good example how movement draws the eye and causes you to look that way.

Across the parking lot != 2 miles away, camouflaged.

I don't see how an 11 foot tall, 1.2 ton vehicle is going to be running around vegetation thick enough to conceal it at 30MPH and not tear up the countryside.

I didn't say he wouldn't tear up the countryside - I said he'd move that fast because of stuff in his way. Even an MD structure with robotic strength will be slowed down by trees, et al.

/Sub