Cosmo-knights?

[Crazy Lou]

A while ago on the the boards I saw a lot of talk about how becoming a Cosmo-Knight will wipe away all your old racial powers and abilities (I think it was in the giant quasi-legal munchkinism thread). Well I was just going through my copy of Phase World, and I can't find where this is stated anywhere. It says that all the race's "mortal weaknesses" are gone, but I don't see anything about losing all racial abilities... So I'm a bit confused as to where the idea that races lose abilites in the transformation to Cosmo-Knight?

[Vrykolas2k]

A while ago on the the boards I saw a lot of talk about how becoming a Cosmo-Knight will wipe away all your old racial powers and abilities (I think it was in the giant quasi-legal munchkinism thread). Well I was just going through my copy of Phase World, and I can't find where this is stated anywhere. It says that all the race's "mortal weaknesses" are gone, but I don't see anything about losing all racial abilities... So I'm a bit confused as to where the idea that races lose abilites in the transformation to Cosmo-Knight?

Some people think that it's an RCC, as opposed to an OCC, as it's clearly stated in the book.
Also, some fear the advent of "Half-Cosmo-Knights", which is about as preposterous as "Half-Ley Line Walkers".
So they decide that you'd lose your racial abilities, like an acute sense of smell or Nightvision.
Odd.
Does that mean all Cosmo-Knights are blind, deaf, mute, and parapalegic?
I think not.

[Braden Campbell]

It's actually a question of game-ballance, and for the record, certain people in high places agree with it.

Basically, so as to preclude the creation of Cosmo-Knights that in addition to their already considerable powers are immune to certain things, can hear a pin drop, can track you by following your breath or PPE trail, can dimensionally teleport, read your mind, turn into fire, etc... we say that ALL racial special powers are lost.

It's a sweeping change to be sure, but can be justified in saying that a person who accepts the mantle of Cosmic Knight is choosing incredible power at the cost of removing themselves (largely) from the societies and people they once called home. if you can't handle the idea of loosing something in order to become something different, then the job isn't for you.

[Vrykolas2k]

It's actually a question of game-ballance, and for the record, certain people in high places agree with it.

Basically, so as to preclude the creation of Cosmo-Knights that in addition to their already considerable powers are immune to certain things, can hear a pin drop, can track you by following your breath or PPE trail, can dimensionally teleport, read your mind, turn into fire, etc... we say that ALL racial special powers are lost.

It's a sweeping change to be sure, but can be justified in saying that a person who accepts the mantle of Cosmic Knight is choosing incredible power at the cost of removing themselves (largely) from the societies and people they once called home. if you can't handle the idea of loosing something in order to become something different, then the job isn't for you.

Erm... aren't most beings capable of dimensionally teleporting as a racial ability supernatural, which the Forge won't convert anyway?

[Crazy Lou]

Ok, I understand the argument of game balance. The only question I have in response then about the argument of chosing to lose part of yourself to become something different is:

Cosmo-Knights retain their previous appearance and can even pass as normal members of their race

If you can pass as a normal member of your race, then wouldn't you have to retain the ability of seeing in total darkness or such, if that was an inherrent ability of your race? But I guess I can also see the argument of game balance outweighing this question.

[Library Ogre]

What about Fallen Knights? Do they have their original racial powers restored, or do they lose them post-fall, as well?

[Crazy Lou]

It's actually a question of game-ballance, and for the record, certain people in high places agree with it.

Basically, so as to preclude the creation of Cosmo-Knights that in addition to their already considerable powers are immune to certain things, can hear a pin drop, can track you by following your breath or PPE trail, can dimensionally teleport, read your mind, turn into fire, etc... we say that ALL racial special powers are lost.

It's a sweeping change to be sure, but can be justified in saying that a person who accepts the mantle of Cosmic Knight is choosing incredible power at the cost of removing themselves (largely) from the societies and people they once called home. if you can't handle the idea of loosing something in order to become something different, then the job isn't for you.

Erm... aren't most beings capable of dimensionally teleporting as a racial ability supernatural, which the Forge won't convert anyway?

It actually doesn't ever say that the Forge WON'T convert them, just that for some unknown reason, it never has before. Technically this allows GM discretion to permit a cannon-legal (w/o "house rules") Cosmo-Knight Adult Dragon if he really wanted to for some reason. Of course, that's kind of silly, but technically not against the rules.

[Crazy Lou]

What about Fallen Knights? Do they have their original racial powers restored, or do they lose them post-fall, as well?

Considering that it's a very widely accepted house rule, it would depend on GM discretion. At least as far as I'm understanding it currently?

[Vrykolas2k]

Ok, I understand the argument of game balance. The only question I have in response then about the argument of chosing to lose part of yourself to become something different is:

Cosmo-Knights retain their previous appearance and can even pass as normal members of their race

If you can pass as a normal member of your race, then wouldn't you have to retain the ability of seeing in total darkness or such, if that was an inherrent ability of your race? But I guess I can also see the argument of game balance outweighing this question.

I've run games for a long while. Only had 3 Cosmo-Knight players... one was human, one was an elf, and one a wolfen (before the new Phase World book called them wulfen); never did I consider nightvision or other senses to be game-breaking.
Actually, they assisted with the job of being the Forge's cops.

[Vrykolas2k]

What about Fallen Knights? Do they have their original racial powers restored, or do they lose them post-fall, as well?

Since as I read the RAW they're never lost to begin with, I consider it a non-issue.

[Crazy Lou]

Ok, I understand the argument of game balance. The only question I have in response then about the argument of chosing to lose part of yourself to become something different is:

Cosmo-Knights retain their previous appearance and can even pass as normal members of their race

If you can pass as a normal member of your race, then wouldn't you have to retain the ability of seeing in total darkness or such, if that was an inherrent ability of your race? But I guess I can also see the argument of game balance outweighing this question.

I've run games for a long while. Only had 3 Cosmo-Knight players... one was human, one was an elf, and one a wolfen (before the new Phase World book called them wulfen); never did I consider nightvision or other senses to be game-breaking.
Actually, they assisted with the job of being the Forge's cops.

That's pretty much why I thought it was weird that the forge would remove their powers...

[Vrykolas2k]

Basically, it is (and I guess should be) up to the GM; I wouldn't remove a wolfen or elf's senses to become this OCC, just like I wouldn't remove them to become any other OCC, to include Apoc.
And I wouldn't consider enhanced senses to be "powers" per se... like I said, seeing in colour is a pretty good ability as well, but nothing says humans become colour-blind... or blind in general, for that matter.
Too, it says in the book that only supernatural beings and prometheans haven't been chosen, which means that at some time, there's been an Altaran Cosmo-Knight.
She's already blind, so without her other senses, how would she be able to perform her duties as a Cosmo-Knight?

[csbioborg]

Ok, I understand the argument of game balance. The only question I have in response then about the argument of chosing to lose part of yourself to become something different is:

Cosmo-Knights retain their previous appearance and can even pass as normal members of their race

If you can pass as a normal member of your race, then wouldn't you have to retain the ability of seeing in total darkness or such, if that was an inherrent ability of your race? But I guess I can also see the argument of game balance outweighing this question.

I've run games for a long while. Only had 3 Cosmo-Knight players... one was human, one was an elf, and one a wolfen (before the new Phase World book called them wulfen); never did I consider nightvision or other senses to be game-breaking.
Actually, they assisted with the job of being the Forge's cops.

That's pretty much why I thought it was weird that the forge would remove their powers...

I think that the arguement is becoming a full conversion is a intrinic part of the process. Just like a full conversion cyborg wouldn't have there sense of smell heightened a being that has been turned into cosmic energy is going to lose somethings as part of the process.

[csbioborg]

What about full conversion cyborgs who don't replace the entire head? An elf might prefer to keep her eyes instead of getting cybernetic replacements, for instance.
And as my husband asked, what about races who have to use other senses besides sight?
It's why we don't think races lose any more than they would if they became a vagabond, ley line walker, or other occ.

it was just a analogy it dosen't appear the Cosmic Forge allows you to pick and choose on your transfromation

Honestly you just have to split the div with somethings I guess a CK whale would have his natural senses but any sort of mystical or psionic powers should be stripped

[Crazy Lou]

but mystic or psionic senses that are inherent to the race ARE it's natural senses.

Also, where is there any reference to being transformed INTO cosmic energy????

[csbioborg]

but mystic or psionic senses that are inherent to the race ARE it's natural senses.

Also, where is there any reference to being transformed INTO cosmic energy????

I meant natural as in senese explanable by real science.
like I said at some point you have to split the div


how would you like to DM a game with a hawkra who is "natually" immune to magic and a cosmo knight

the cosmic energy part is one interprtation of the write up

[runebeo]

Losing your racial abilities isn't much of a drawback to become a minor god. I really hate Cosmo-Knights, but if their taking volunteers sign me up.

[Crazy Lou]

Losing your racial abilities isn't much of a drawback to become a minor god. I really hate Cosmo-Knights, but if their taking volunteers sign me up.

That seems like at least a slight overstatement... I'd say an Adult Dragon is more like a minor god... And one on one, even a powerful cosmo-knight shouldn't be able to take one of those...

[Greyaxe]

Losing your racial abilities isn't much of a drawback to become a minor god. I really hate Cosmo-Knights, but if their taking volunteers sign me up.

That seems like at least a slight overstatement... I'd say an Adult Dragon is more like a minor god... And one on one, even a powerful cosmo-knight shouldn't be able to take one of those...

Sorry Cosmo knight kicks Dargon butt.

Range of cosmic blast plus mach speeds in atmosphere, dragon has no chance. Even less in space.

[Greyaxe]

Heck, I'd even go as far and say that Cosmo-Knights retain the abilities of their previous OCC before they were chosen by the Cosmic Forge (game balance be damned).

Seriously though. Cosmo-Knights are used in campaigns (should be) that are rather cosmic in scale anyway. A few more abilities don't hurt.

Just look at the Godling RCC, can choose two magic schools where he gets all spells from equal to his level and addtionally can get five super psionic powers and the mastery of an entire lesser category (or can choose two lesser categories). Overpowered? Yeah, but against the things they're supposed to fight against? God help 'em.

Slipery slope that. You could have a Godling Cosmoknight. Way overpowered. But as you say Game Balance Be dammed... Hey whaterver works for your campaign. As long as player are having fun, and continue to be challanged why not its your game. But from a cannon perspective i think the rules on this should be calrified.

[Crazy Lou]

Losing your racial abilities isn't much of a drawback to become a minor god. I really hate Cosmo-Knights, but if their taking volunteers sign me up.

That seems like at least a slight overstatement... I'd say an Adult Dragon is more like a minor god... And one on one, even a powerful cosmo-knight shouldn't be able to take one of those...

Sorry Cosmo knight kicks Dargon butt.

Range of cosmic blast plus mach speeds in atmosphere, dragon has no chance. Even less in space.

But "Dargons" have big heap magic spell... And way more MDC... and don't forget dragons teleport, etc...

[Crazy Lou]

Slipery slope that. You could have a Godling Cosmoknight. Way overpowered. But as you say Game Balance Be dammed... Hey whaterver works for your campaign. As long as player are having fun, and continue to be challanged why not its your game. But from a cannon perspective i think the rules on this should be calrified.

Compared to what? I'd say even a Godling Cosmoknight would have trouble fighting Alien Intelligences or an evil god. Or maybe a few larger space ships? How is it overpowered if there are several canon oppositions that could rather easily take a Godling Cosmoknight down?

Character classes like the Godling or Cosmoknight were especially made with high power campaigns in mind (at least I hope so). Nothing is overpowered if you use the right setting for the characters.

QFT!!! (especially the bold)

[cornholioprime]

A while ago on the the boards I saw a lot of talk about how becoming a Cosmo-Knight will wipe away all your old racial powers and abilities (I think it was in the giant quasi-legal munchkinism thread). Well I was just going through my copy of Phase World, and I can't find where this is stated anywhere. It says that all the race's "mortal weaknesses" are gone, but I don't see anything about losing all racial abilities... So I'm a bit confused as to where the idea that races lose abilites in the transformation to Cosmo-Knight?

It is strongly implied in the accompanying Flavor Text.

Rifts: Phase World, page 102.




So it's a rather poorly-written Article, but the spirit of it seems clear: The Cosmic Forge pretty much does to Humanoids what Vampirism does, in terms of wiping the slate clean and starting anew (and it probably doubles as an In-Game reason to keep the character balanced).

[runebeo]

Losing your racial abilities isn't much of a drawback to become a minor god. I really hate Cosmo-Knights, but if their taking volunteers sign me up.

That seems like at least a slight overstatement... I'd say an Adult Dragon is more like a minor god... And one on one, even a powerful cosmo-knight shouldn't be able to take one of those...

Sorry Cosmo knight kicks Dargon butt.

Range of cosmic blast plus mach speeds in atmosphere, dragon has no chance. Even less in space.

For a Cosmic Knight to beat a adult dragon would be so easy, just like playing the old Super Man video game. 6 energy attacks a round at the dragon from a distance and 2 action to get out of range of it's of its spells that odds are won't even effect them with their high P.E. and sure it can get an odd attack in use his teleport ability, but if he fails the percent roll he'll take a few extra blasts that round. When he get the dragon down to a few thousand M.D.C. he can go melee to finish it off.

[Greyaxe]

Losing your racial abilities isn't much of a drawback to become a minor god. I really hate Cosmo-Knights, but if their taking volunteers sign me up.

That seems like at least a slight overstatement... I'd say an Adult Dragon is more like a minor god... And one on one, even a powerful cosmo-knight shouldn't be able to take one of those...

Sorry Cosmo knight kicks Dargon butt.

Range of cosmic blast plus mach speeds in atmosphere, dragon has no chance. Even less in space.

For a Cosmic Knight to beat a adult dragon would be so easy, just like playing the old Super Man video game. 6 energy attacks a round at the dragon from a distance and 2 action to get out of range of it's of its spells that odds are won't even effect them with their high P.E. and sure it can get an odd attack in use his teleport ability, but if he fails the percent roll he'll take a few extra blasts that round. When he get the dragon down to a few thousand M.D.C. he can go melee to finish it off.

Yup!

[Greyaxe]

Slipery slope that. You could have a Godling Cosmoknight. Way overpowered. But as you say Game Balance Be dammed... Hey whaterver works for your campaign. As long as player are having fun, and continue to be challanged why not its your game. But from a cannon perspective i think the rules on this should be calrified.

Compared to what? I'd say even a Godling Cosmoknight would have trouble fighting Alien Intelligences or an evil god. Or maybe a few larger space ships? How is it overpowered if there are several canon oppositions that could rather easily take a Godling Cosmoknight down?

Character classes like the Godling or Cosmoknight were especially made with high power campaigns in mind (at least I hope so). Nothing is overpowered if you use the right setting for the characters.

As i said in my post, as long as the players continue to be challanged why not. I have to ask though how oven do evil gods duke it out with heroes of the Megaverse? More often it wll be minios acting to complete the "Evil Gods Master Plan"....So you wipe the walls with all the evil henchmen session after session.....BORING. Not fun. But like I said its your game.

[Crazy Lou]

So it's a rather poorly-written Article, but the spirit of it seems clear: The Cosmic Forge pretty much does to Humanoids what Vampirism does, in terms of wiping the slate clean and starting anew (and it probably doubles as an In-Game reason to keep the character balanced).

Err... what? The article says that the Cosmic Forge gets rid of "mortal weaknesses" by changing an SDC creature into an MDC one. Nothing about a change in abilities is ever even implied.

That's the only fundamental change that the body undergoes. You are now an MDC version of your race. Nothing more.

Exactly. Also, page 102 is just detailing their bonuses and their skills and stuff...? What were you specifically referencing on that page?

As i said in my post, as long as the players continue to be challanged why not. I have to ask though how oven do evil gods duke it out with heroes of the Megaverse? More often it wll be minios acting to complete the "Evil Gods Master Plan"....So you wipe the walls with all the evil henchmen session after session.....BORING. Not fun. But like I said its your game.

Considering that the player characters are supposed to be those heroes... As often as the GM wants to.

And just because the player characters are supposedly "overpowered" doesn't mean you can't build up a compelling story around them.

QFT

[Vrykolas2k]

Losing your racial abilities isn't much of a drawback to become a minor god. I really hate Cosmo-Knights, but if their taking volunteers sign me up.

That seems like at least a slight overstatement... I'd say an Adult Dragon is more like a minor god... And one on one, even a powerful cosmo-knight shouldn't be able to take one of those...

Sorry Cosmo knight kicks Dargon butt.

Range of cosmic blast plus mach speeds in atmosphere, dragon has no chance. Even less in space.

Imprevious to Energy... a spell.
'Nuff said.

[Crazy Lou]

Losing your racial abilities isn't much of a drawback to become a minor god. I really hate Cosmo-Knights, but if their taking volunteers sign me up.

That seems like at least a slight overstatement... I'd say an Adult Dragon is more like a minor god... And one on one, even a powerful cosmo-knight shouldn't be able to take one of those...

Sorry Cosmo knight kicks Dargon butt.

Range of cosmic blast plus mach speeds in atmosphere, dragon has no chance. Even less in space.

Imprevious to Energy... a spell.
'Nuff said.

Thank you! When people think of magic, they easily forget about those kinds of spells. Heck, it could use invulnerability instead. That'd be even worse.

[ApocalypseZero]

The quickest way to defeat a Cosmo-Knight is to make him fall. And so many people willing to play Cosmo-Knights seem to be equally quick to forget about that oh-so constricting Code and how by breaking one of the laws causes the Cosmo-Knight to become not-so Cosmo.

And I'm glad to see a few people around here still thinking and realizing that Magic is, and with the new rules even more, powerful.

[cornholioprime]

So it's a rather poorly-written Article, but the spirit of it seems clear: The Cosmic Forge pretty much does to Humanoids what Vampirism does, in terms of wiping the slate clean and starting anew (and it probably doubles as an In-Game reason to keep the character balanced).

Err... what? The article says that the Cosmic Forge gets rid of "mortal weaknesses" by changing an SDC creature into an MDC one. Nothing about a change in abilities is ever even implied.

That's the only fundamental change that the body undergoes. You are now an MDC version of your race. Nothing more.

Exactly. Also, page 102 is just detailing their bonuses and their skills and stuff...? What were you specifically referencing on that page?Simply put, I surmise that the Flavor Text of what happens to the character, combined with the text that says (paraphrased), "wipe out all oll OCC Skills and make up new ones," leads to the logical implication that you are your "old self" ONLY in terms of personal memories and physical appearance.

And that observation is bolstered by the fact that you now have as much as 500+ more MDC than you had before, ALL of your original Rolls for your Race/OCC/RCC are completely re-rolled, you can live indefinitely in the vacuum of space, you are potentially hundreds of times stronger than you ever were before, you can now shoot energy beams out of your self-created weapon 24 hours a day, 7 days a week if you really wanted to, and you can now travel at Warp Speed without aid of a Starship.

I can take all of those observations, combine them with Kevin's long-standing penchant for creating restrictions within his games and characters that stop super-powerful characters of multiple types from combining, and therefore make a very strong argument that, if we were ever to be able to get Kevin to personally answer the question, that he'd "agree" with me and say that IF you choose Cosmo-Knight, you end up with JUST a Cosmo-Knight (note that at no time did I ever say that my conjecture on the nature of a CK was a 100% certainty).

[Crazy Lou]

actually, all the attributes aren't re-rolled. You keep your old ones if they were higher than what you roll w/ the dice the Cosmo-knights get to try. So you always re-roll, but if your old attributes would be higher, then you keep those. This actually supports my way of thinking more than the idea that being transformed is a cosmic reset button for better or for worse. This suggests that the transformation only takes your weaknesses and makes them strengths, while letting you keep your old strengths too.

Use these die rolls, or the attributes of the character's original race, whichever are HIGHER.

also:

Cosmo-Knights retain their previous appearance and can even pass as normal members of their race (which is important for undercover work). However, they no longer have the weaknesses of normal mortals.

(formatting mine) The key word here, is weaknesses. This view as i said is supported by my first quote. The change of skill set is more easily explained by their change of lifestyle (now live as intergalactic police officers basically, following a specific code) than by the idea that they totally lose their past identity in all ways of interpretation.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Losing your racial abilities isn't much of a drawback to become a minor god. I really hate Cosmo-Knights, but if their taking volunteers sign me up.

That seems like at least a slight overstatement... I'd say an Adult Dragon is more like a minor god... And one on one, even a powerful cosmo-knight shouldn't be able to take one of those...

Sorry Cosmo knight kicks Dargon butt.

Range of cosmic blast plus mach speeds in atmosphere, dragon has no chance. Even less in space.

For a Cosmic Knight to beat a adult dragon would be so easy, just like playing the old Super Man video game. 6 energy attacks a round at the dragon from a distance and 2 action to get out of range of it's of its spells that odds are won't even effect them with their high P.E. and sure it can get an odd attack in use his teleport ability, but if he fails the percent roll he'll take a few extra blasts that round. When he get the dragon down to a few thousand M.D.C. he can go melee to finish it off.

yer kidding right? After maybe 1 melee round of that the dragon teleports to it's hidden lair and begins a long term plot that will result in the cosmo knight's untimely demise sometime in the next few decades.

[Crazy Lou]

Losing your racial abilities isn't much of a drawback to become a minor god. I really hate Cosmo-Knights, but if their taking volunteers sign me up.

That seems like at least a slight overstatement... I'd say an Adult Dragon is more like a minor god... And one on one, even a powerful cosmo-knight shouldn't be able to take one of those...

Sorry Cosmo knight kicks Dargon butt.

Range of cosmic blast plus mach speeds in atmosphere, dragon has no chance. Even less in space.

For a Cosmic Knight to beat a adult dragon would be so easy, just like playing the old Super Man video game. 6 energy attacks a round at the dragon from a distance and 2 action to get out of range of it's of its spells that odds are won't even effect them with their high P.E. and sure it can get an odd attack in use his teleport ability, but if he fails the percent roll he'll take a few extra blasts that round. When he get the dragon down to a few thousand M.D.C. he can go melee to finish it off.

yer kidding right? After maybe 1 melee round of that the dragon teleports to it's hidden lair and begins a long term plot that will result in the cosmo knight's untimely demise sometime in the next few decades.

Only if the dragon is bored and feels like it needs a good maniacal plot to occupy it's time for a few decades. Otherwise it would just destroy the uppity cosmo-knight and be on it's merry way.

[cornholioprime]

Simply put, I surmise that the Flavor Text of what happens to the character, combined with the text that says (paraphrased), "wipe out all oll OCC Skills and make up new ones," leads to the logical implication that you are your "old self" ONLY in terms of personal memories and physical appearance.

And what else is magic than the knowledge how to use it and having the right amount of PPE to implement it?

You telling me a guy that rode horses for his entire life, gets chosen as a Cosmo-Knight and then forgets how to ride?

If that list of OCC O'Skills includes Horseback Riding, he'd lose it as an OCC Skill....but he'd probably still know the rawest basics (like riding on the horse's back instead of its stomach).

Since Magic Using is an OCC, you lose it.

Sorry.

I didn't write up that RCC (and I can understand why the Book's Authors would build in such limitations).

And that observation is bolstered by the fact that you now have as much as 500+ more MDC than you had before, ALL of your original Rolls for your Race/OCC/RCC are completely re-rolled, you can live indefinitely in the vacuum of space, you are potentially hundreds of times stronger than you ever were before, you can now shoot energy beams out of your self-created weapon 24 hours a day, 7 days a week if you really wanted to, and you can now travel at Warp Speed without aid of a Starship.

As Lou already mentioned, you get to keep your old stats if those were higher.

Why, yes, yes he did.

So I got wrong one segment of what happens when you stop being X and become a CK.
Hopefully, most people got the gist of what was being said (and the Stats that you 'keep' don't really factor much into your new CK being anyway except on some types of Saving Throws, so the point being made is still a strong one IMO).

I can take all of those observations, combine them with Kevin's long-standing penchant for creating restrictions within his games and characters that stop super-powerful characters of multiple types from combining, and therefore make a very strong argument that, if we were ever to be able to get Kevin to personally answer the question, that he'd "agree" with me and say that IF you choose Cosmo-Knight, you end up with JUST a Cosmo-Knight (note that at no time did I ever say that my conjecture on the nature of a CK was a 100% certainty).

And I take all those observations and say that the Cosmo-Knight has been written with a 'random guy transforms' mindset. Not with a dual classing mindset.

Then you agree with me, albeit in less words.

Unless the Cosmic Forge completely alters your memories too (which is not even slightly implied) then taking away the skills of an old class is downright ridiculous. As said above, why should a guy suddenly forget how to ride? Or how to speak/read a certain language?

The whole Riding Horseback thing has already been covered.

As to the Languages that you know (or don't), that's up to you if you want to keep the one(s) that you have; Page 102 explicitly says that you get 3 of your choice.

If you knew MORE than 3 Languages beforehand and lose them in the conversion, welcome to Rifts and its constantly-reoccurring concept of Tradeoffs.

Seriously, I don't know why people have this crazy depowering fetish going on. The entire RIFTS setting has a high enough powerlevel to handle characters like a "Godling Cosmo-Knight" even several of them (if that's your thing). If a GM somehow can't handle that beyond "Lol, lets throw powerful stuff at 'em" then he should cosider reading more fiction.

This isn't a discussion about how Powerful a House-Ruled CK can be; it's a Thread about what you lose and what you gain, IN CANON, when you decide to answer the Call of the Forge.

[Vrykolas2k]

Cosmo-Knights get a pretty good skill selection.
Between OCC, Related, and Secondary skills, I'm sure anyone's "Pre-Forge" background can be duplicated. Not everyone's will be a complete skill-for-skill re-buy, but a skill-monkey like a Wilderness Scout or Cyber-Knight will likely be able to "retain" the most important skills. A former Ley Line Walker would likely retain Lore: Magic, and of course Lore: Demons and Monsters is a part of the Cosmo-Knight skill-set.

[Crazy Lou]

I really appreciate your agreement with my arguments in general, but I have to correct a few things...

If that list of OCC O'Skills includes Horseback Riding, he'd lose it as an OCC Skill....but he'd probably still know the rawest basics (like riding on the horse's back instead of its stomach).

Since Magic Using is an OCC, you lose it.

Sorry.

Tell me where that is mentioned in the Cosmo-Knight article?

It's right here:

When a character is transformed, the skills of his past life are lost and the character is reborn.

Now, I agree that in some cases this could be really stupid, like if a linguist with 12 languages lost most of them, even though that was his specialty.

I didn't write up that RCC (and I can understand why the Book's Authors would build in such limitations).

It's an OCC. Not an RCC. You are still your old race just with MD.

You don't go around saying that an Atlantean Undead Slayer is no longer an Atlantean because he suddenly has MDC.

I agree, and I think that calling it an RCC was just a slip up, so no biggie there.

Now point me to where those limitations are supposed to be in that book?

Above.

So I got wrong one segment of what happens when you stop being X and become a CK.

Where does it say you stop being X?

Technically nowhere. But you aren't entirely just X anymore either. You're ">X"

Then you agree with me, albeit in less words.

No, I don't.

I said it's been written with a random guy turning into a Cosmo-Knight in mind.

Just like how a Diabolist is written with random guy in mind. And not with a Ley Line Walker that decided to switch classes.

It's still possible to dual class though.

Well... you can't really "dual class" but you can switch, which leaves you with both for a few years at least. Of course I personally ignore the no dual classing rule generally, but that's just me.

I also agree that really the OCC of Cosmo-Knight wasn't written with this sort of issue in mind. It's just supposed to be what you start as, and the rules about becoming one are skimpy because it's partly for flavor, and partly thrown in (this is my guess anyway). But regardless, you're right, classes aren't written with the intent of dealing w/ combo classes. Which is why this is an issue in the first place (partly anyway -- the other part is b/c people think that CKs are too powerful and want to House rule away any previous RCC abilities too, so that you can't get "out of hand" on the power scale)

As to the Languages that you know (or don't), that's up to you if you want to keep the one(s) that you have; Page 102 explicitly says that you get 3 of your choice.

Yeah, for the Cosmo-Knight profession. It says nothing that you loose what you had previously.

If you knew MORE than 3 Languages beforehand and lose them in the conversion, welcome to Rifts and its constantly-reoccurring concept of Tradeoffs.

Or not. Nothing says that you loose your old skills or abilities.

Above again.

This isn't a discussion about how Powerful a House-Ruled CK can be; it's a Thread about what you lose and what you gain, IN CANON, when you decide to answer the Call of the Forge.

And "IN CANON" nothing is mentioned that you loose anything when you become a Cosmo-Knight.

It's more like all the stuff about taking away his previous OCC skills and abilities is the house rule. Not the other way around.

This last section is an excellent seguey into my next post, addressing cornholioprime's stuff. But you're both partly right.

[Crazy Lou]

Simply put, I surmise that the Flavor Text of what happens to the character, combined with the text that says (paraphrased), "wipe out all oll OCC Skills and make up new ones," leads to the logical implication that you are your "old self" ONLY in terms of personal memories and physical appearance.

And what else is magic than the knowledge how to use it and having the right amount of PPE to implement it?

You telling me a guy that rode horses for his entire life, gets chosen as a Cosmo-Knight and then forgets how to ride?

If that list of OCC O'Skills includes Horseback Riding, he'd lose it as an OCC Skill....but he'd probably still know the rawest basics (like riding on the horse's back instead of its stomach).

Since Magic Using is an OCC, you lose it.

Sorry.

I didn't write up that RCC (and I can understand why the Book's Authors would build in such limitations).

I'd agree that you lose your magic casting powers, unless you're a dragon or godling, because then the magic is an inherent thing, falling under the category of RCC power, and then you don't lose it. (dragons and godlings are never explicitly banned from conversion, they are just said to never have been converted to CK before. While I know it's a technicality, it's still there, and it is the most literal interpretation of the canon. While it provides the possibility of crazy stuff, it's still legal. But i've said all that above.)

And that observation is bolstered by the fact that you now have as much as 500+ more MDC than you had before, ALL of your original Rolls for your Race/OCC/RCC are completely re-rolled, you can live indefinitely in the vacuum of space, you are potentially hundreds of times stronger than you ever were before, you can now shoot energy beams out of your self-created weapon 24 hours a day, 7 days a week if you really wanted to, and you can now travel at Warp Speed without aid of a Starship.

As Lou already mentioned, you get to keep your old stats if those were higher.

Why, yes, yes he did.

So I got wrong one segment of what happens when you stop being X and become a CK.
Hopefully, most people got the gist of what was being said (and the Stats that you 'keep' don't really factor much into your new CK being anyway except on some types of Saving Throws, so the point being made is still a strong one IMO).

Well, you didn't really address part of my argument against the gist of what you were saying. so here it is again, since i don't feel like re-wording it:

This [referring to the fact that you keep your attributes that are higher] actually supports my way of thinking more than the idea that being transformed is a cosmic reset button for better or for worse. This suggests that the transformation only takes your weaknesses and makes them strengths, while letting you keep your old strengths too. [note except for the "strengths" of past skills]

*[brackets] added for clarification of quote
*Note: I'm not being rude or anything with my repost, it's just that you missed it the first time, or at least didn't address it.
Basically I'm continuing the original argument that CK's don't BY CANON lose all their old RCC/natural abilities.

I can take all of those observations, combine them with Kevin's long-standing penchant for creating restrictions within his games and characters that stop super-powerful characters of multiple types from combining, and therefore make a very strong argument that, if we were ever to be able to get Kevin to personally answer the question, that he'd "agree" with me and say that IF you choose Cosmo-Knight, you end up with JUST a Cosmo-Knight (note that at no time did I ever say that my conjecture on the nature of a CK was a 100% certainty).

But you see, while Kevin may have a long-standing penchant for creating restrictions to prevent super-powerful characters and preventing multiple types from combining, he didn't make that canon by publishing such in the OCC description of the Cosmo-Knight. It might be his basic trend, and while if personally asked his opinion on whether a godling cosmo-knight should be allowed by canon, the fact is that that isn't the published canon fact, and until that absence of published, canon status is changed, it remains only Kevin's personal opinion as a GM in his games.

Unless the Cosmic Forge completely alters your memories too (which is not even slightly implied) then taking away the skills of an old class is downright ridiculous. As said above, why should a guy suddenly forget how to ride? Or how to speak/read a certain language?

The whole Riding Horseback thing has already been covered.

As to the Languages that you know (or don't), that's up to you if you want to keep the one(s) that you have; Page 102 explicitly says that you get 3 of your choice.

If you knew MORE than 3 Languages beforehand and lose them in the conversion, welcome to Rifts and its constantly-reoccurring concept of Tradeoffs.

As i've said, while I agree with you as canon, I also think that this is dumb, especially with things like languages.

Seriously, I don't know why people have this crazy depowering fetish going on. The entire RIFTS setting has a high enough powerlevel to handle characters like a "Godling Cosmo-Knight" even several of them (if that's your thing). If a GM somehow can't handle that beyond "Lol, lets throw powerful stuff at 'em" then he should cosider reading more fiction.

This isn't a discussion about how Powerful a House-Ruled CK can be; it's a Thread about what you lose and what you gain, IN CANON, when you decide to answer the Call of the Forge.

[/quote]
I'm so glad you said that and are sticking to only canon here. Thank you. And as i've very carefully explained, keeping RCC/natural abilites after your "Cosmic Intervention" and subsequent transformation is NOT prohibited by canon.

[Crazy Lou]

It's right here:

When a character is transformed, the skills of his past life are lost and the character is reborn.

Woah, right down there in the corner. Lol, didn't think about checking there. Thanks.

But anyway this actually strengthens the point about not losing your previous abilities. I mean, losing your skills has been specified, losing the rest not.

Yep, it's hiding a bit. And yeah, that's been part of my point. Previous abilites aren't specifically nixed.

Well... you can't really "dual class" but you can switch, which leaves you with both for a few years at least. Of course I personally ignore the no dual classing rule generally, but that's just me.

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... alocc.html

That's calling it Dual OCCing, but it's actually the rules for changing OCCs. Note that all your old skills are frozen. There's an expanded version of those rules in the Bionic Source Book. And I think a couple other places. But the skills not duplicated by the new class slowly atrophy over time until they are forgotten. The argument is that since you have a changed class, the non-duplicated skills aren't used enough anymore, so you forget them slowly.

[The Beast]

Shouldn't this be in the Dimension Books thread?

[runebeo]

Losing your racial abilities isn't much of a drawback to become a minor god. I really hate Cosmo-Knights, but if their taking volunteers sign me up.

That seems like at least a slight overstatement... I'd say an Adult Dragon is more like a minor god... And one on one, even a powerful cosmo-knight shouldn't be able to take one of those...

Sorry Cosmo knight kicks Dargon butt.

Range of cosmic blast plus mach speeds in atmosphere, dragon has no chance. Even less in space.

For a Cosmic Knight to beat a adult dragon would be so easy, just like playing the old Super Man video game. 6 energy attacks a round at the dragon from a distance and 2 action to get out of range of it's of its spells that odds are won't even effect them with their high P.E. and sure it can get an odd attack in use his teleport ability, but if he fails the percent roll he'll take a few extra blasts that round. When he get the dragon down to a few thousand M.D.C. he can go melee to finish it off.

yer kidding right? After maybe 1 melee round of that the dragon teleports to it's hidden lair and begins a long term plot that will result in the cosmo knight's untimely demise sometime in the next few decades.

If a Knight knew he was going to fight a dragon he's going to bring a few radio trackers, he's from a dimension with advanced alien technology and at their flying speed it only takes a few seconds to travel 5 miles.

[sHaka]

Losing your racial abilities isn't much of a drawback to become a minor god. I really hate Cosmo-Knights, but if their taking volunteers sign me up.

That seems like at least a slight overstatement... I'd say an Adult Dragon is more like a minor god... And one on one, even a powerful cosmo-knight shouldn't be able to take one of those...

Sorry Cosmo knight kicks Dargon butt.

Range of cosmic blast plus mach speeds in atmosphere, dragon has no chance. Even less in space.

I agree, but only if the Adult Dragon is being played by a complete goober with no skill/knowledge/imagination/opposable digits.

Otherwise, Dragonwright 1, cosmic forge 0.

[Nekira Sudacne]

That seems like at least a slight overstatement... I'd say an Adult Dragon is more like a minor god... And one on one, even a powerful cosmo-knight shouldn't be able to take one of those...

Sorry Cosmo knight kicks Dargon butt.

Range of cosmic blast plus mach speeds in atmosphere, dragon has no chance. Even less in space.

For a Cosmic Knight to beat a adult dragon would be so easy, just like playing the old Super Man video game. 6 energy attacks a round at the dragon from a distance and 2 action to get out of range of it's of its spells that odds are won't even effect them with their high P.E. and sure it can get an odd attack in use his teleport ability, but if he fails the percent roll he'll take a few extra blasts that round. When he get the dragon down to a few thousand M.D.C. he can go melee to finish it off.

yer kidding right? After maybe 1 melee round of that the dragon teleports to it's hidden lair and begins a long term plot that will result in the cosmo knight's untimely demise sometime in the next few decades.

If a Knight knew he was going to fight a dragon he's going to bring a few radio trackers, he's from a dimension with advanced alien technology and at their flying speed it only takes a few seconds to travel 5 miles.

Yea...because he'll always have them on hand. You assume the cosmo knight has time to prepare.

And if you want to go that route, I can easially counter with if they both have time to prepare an average dragon can easially afford radio jammers to prepare with.

Of course, that's still pointless because an adult dragons lair is it's time Hole (dragons and gods) which a racially unique spell that makes an extradimensioanl lair for the dragon. Radio signals don't cross dimensioanl barriers so it's useless.

But sinse all dragons are dimensional explorers with dimensional teleport teleporting to any other diemsnion would foil the tracker until it's removed.

Also i'll point out that cosmo knights mostly stay in the three galaxies, and that any dragon who would be active enough to get a cosmo knight to notice him knows all about technology and how to avoid it.

Dragon's arn't stupid. they don't LIKE using technology. They are not afraid to use it when required, and even then certainly know how to avoid it and handle it properly.

[runebeo]

I agree with your points. The Knights should always carry sometime like radio trackers or life sensors since their usually dealing with fast moving opponents with some having teleporting abilities and ever space flight capabilities. When you don't eat or don't need to purchase weapons, ammo or transportation you have money for hi tech gadgets. I also forgot that magic fire deals full damage to the Knights which makes melee combat a little mess. The Knight would need to be well prepared to kill an adult dragon. Guess you really need to enrage and goat a dragon so he'll fight to the death, this mean you got to find out what it most loves or craves and go after that. Maybe slay a few of its hatchlings and brag about it to him, his minions and his worshipers may get the desired effect.

[Crazy Lou]

That seems like at least a slight overstatement... I'd say an Adult Dragon is more like a minor god... And one on one, even a powerful cosmo-knight shouldn't be able to take one of those...

Sorry Cosmo knight kicks Dargon butt.

Range of cosmic blast plus mach speeds in atmosphere, dragon has no chance. Even less in space.

For a Cosmic Knight to beat a adult dragon would be so easy, just like playing the old Super Man video game. 6 energy attacks a round at the dragon from a distance and 2 action to get out of range of it's of its spells that odds are won't even effect them with their high P.E. and sure it can get an odd attack in use his teleport ability, but if he fails the percent roll he'll take a few extra blasts that round. When he get the dragon down to a few thousand M.D.C. he can go melee to finish it off.

yer kidding right? After maybe 1 melee round of that the dragon teleports to it's hidden lair and begins a long term plot that will result in the cosmo knight's untimely demise sometime in the next few decades.

If a Knight knew he was going to fight a dragon he's going to bring a few radio trackers, he's from a dimension with advanced alien technology and at their flying speed it only takes a few seconds to travel 5 miles.

As was already noted, the trackers wouldn't work. Besides, their teleporting ability isn't the least of the Cosmo-Knight's worries. Remember the note about impervious to energy? Yeah. So basically the CK has to fight the dragon w/ his bare hands (remember his weapon is described as an energy weapon (even though it's a melee weapon, it's still energy, which means that it still won't hurt something impervious to energy as per the spell)). That'll be a load of fun for him. Meanwhile the dragon has no limits on how it can fight, and can tear the little CK apart, if for no other reason that it can do roughly the same damage as the per round w/ it's bare hands too, but has over 10x the amount of MDC!

[Crazy Lou]

I agree with your points. The Knights should always carry sometime like radio trackers or life sensors since their usually dealing with fast moving opponents with some having teleporting abilities and ever space flight capabilities. When you don't eat or don't need to purchase weapons, ammo or transportation you have money for hi tech gadgets. I also forgot that magic fire deals full damage to the Knights which makes melee combat a little mess. The Knight would need to be well prepared to kill an adult dragon. Guess you really need to enrage and goat a dragon so he'll fight to the death, this mean you got to find out what it most loves or craves and go after that. Maybe slay a few of its hatchlings and brag about it to him, his minions and his worshipers may get the desired effect.

Generally after a little while dragons don't care about their hatchlings anymore, and especially in the case of a male (usually will attack to kill on sight if they meet later)

[runebeo]

Still sure they may even attack and kill their young, but let someone else do is a different story and the real factor here is their reputation. They care what people say & think about them just like humans do. Push enough buttons you can anger just about anything and dragon are so use to being feared & respected, just like prison lack of respect can make others disrespectful too.

[The Beast]

remember his weapon is described as an energy weapon (even though it's a melee weapon, it's still energy, which means that it still won't hurt something impervious to energy as per the spell

Where did you get this from?

[Crazy Lou]

remember his weapon is described as an energy weapon (even though it's a melee weapon, it's still energy, which means that it still won't hurt something impervious to energy as per the spell

Where did you get this from?

Oh yeah, woops, sorry, I was thinking about psi-swords from another thread... I had just realized while I was reading the psi-sword description that it's an energy weapon and would be stopped by impervious to energy. I was still thinking about that and got myself mixed up... Too many threads and thoughts running through my head at once.

Ya, ignore that little comment by me, it was really stupid.

But still, even with it's cosmic weapon, a CK stuck in melee combat w/ an adult dragon is still in deep trouble.