Revisiting Bursters and Lasers

[Dead Boy]

I was looking up a Q&A off the FAQ to satisfy a curiosity and came across this...

Question: Bursters are immune to damage from heat and fire, the damaging effect of lasers is imho based on heat, so are bursters immune to damage from laser-based attacks (same as plasma) ?
Answer: As far as in-game physics are concerned, lasers do not inflict heat damage. Bursters and other beings immune to heat/fire have no protection against lasers.

uh... lasers do not inflict heat damage? The book doesn't agree with that statement. "Lasers burn and cauterize the flesh as they cut through SDC bodies" (RUE 358) In order to "burn and cauterize", you need heat. No leap of logic there, that's a fact both in reality-land physics and in-game physics.

Consequently, I feel compelled to re-ask the question to see (A) if the previously given explanation can be reasonably rationalized by anyone, (B) to reopen this to discussion, and (C), barring a darn good reason to justify the notion of lasers not imparting heat to a target, to possibly overturn this very odd ruling.

So, QUESTION: Since the Burster's power of being Impervious to Fire & Heat makes them immune to Plasma, napalm, and head-based attacks in general, regardless if those attacks be MD or SDC in nature, or based in magic or science, would this mean that Bursters should be immune to damage from lasers as well?

[mobuttu]

So, QUESTION: Since the Burster's power of being Impervious to Fire & Heat makes them immune to Plasma, napalm, and head-based attacks in general, regardless if those attacks be MD or SDC in nature, or based in magic or science, would this mean that Bursters should be immune to damage from lasers as well?

If that's cool to you then go ahead. For me lasers are high energy beams that do a different type of damage from that did by Plasma, napalm, and head-based attacks in general.

[Talavar]

Yes, lasers should be considered heat damage - not even burning, but explosively vaporizing heat. Anything immune to heat should be immune to lasers, even moreso than plasma (fire is a kind of plasma; not all plasma is fire), but the books don't seem to agree. House rules to the rescue!

[Killer Cyborg]

Troublemaker.

[ingexthefuryhunter1]

I disagree a Laser works more on disrupting the molecular stability of an object, which may cause an effect very similar to a burn. But just because there is a tremendous amount of energy put into the beam doesn’t mean it all makes it down the path some of the photons that make up the path of the beam do become grounded by other particulates in the air.

Here is an example of the physics of a Fiber-hosted laser, Which would be the most common type of laser on Rift earths given its simplicity of design.

The gain medium of a laser is a material of controlled purity, size, concentration, and shape, which amplifies the beam by the process of stimulated emission. It can be of any state: gas, liquid, solid or plasma. The gain medium absorbs pump energy, which raises some electrons into higher-energy ("excited") quantum states. Particles can interact with light both by absorbing photons or by emitting photons. Emission can be spontaneous or stimulated. In the latter case, the photon is emitted in the same direction as the light that is passing by. When the number of particles in one excited state exceeds the number of particles in some lower-energy state, population inversion is achieved and the amount of stimulated emissions due to light that passes through is larger than the amount of absorption. Hence, the light is amplified. By itself, this makes an optical amplifier. When an optical amplifier is placed inside a resonant optical cavity, one obtains a laser.


The light generated by stimulated emission is very similar to the input signal in terms of wavelength, phase, and polarization. This gives laser light its characteristic coherence, and allows it to maintain the uniform polarization and often monochromaticity established by the optical cavity design.

Now a laser would work in laments terms like a Disrupter pistol from Star Trek, than like a Plasma or concentrated blow torch, there are ways to make a laser perform these functions but they require specific non-efficient designs to be employed to make it happen.

Si in essence the bursters heat would if using real life physics would amplify the beams efficiency causing it to disrupt even more materials, As heat only agitates molecular matter even more. But that is why trying to add real psychics to a sci-fi game is ludicrous, Now that you know how a laser really works. Please show us all a man or women who can burst into flames and control it with there mind.

[Talavar]

Yes, lasers should be considered heat damage - not even burning, but explosively vaporizing heat. Anything immune to heat should be immune to lasers, even moreso than plasma (fire is a kind of plasma; not all plasma is fire), but the books don't seem to agree. House rules to the rescue!

Weather or not Plasma is Fire is Irrelevent, it's hot...and heat does not bother a Burster. Lasers, Because they Cauterize, should be treated like Heat. A simple disruption of the Atoms is not eonugh to casue Cauterization, that would make lasers a Discentagreation beam.

But plasma doesn't have to be hot to be plasma, that's what I was getting at.

I disagree a Laser works more on disrupting the molecular stability of an object, which may cause an effect very similar to a burn. But just because there is a tremendous amount of energy put into the beam doesn’t mean it all makes it down the path some of the photons that make up the path of the beam do become grounded by other particulates in the air.

Here is an example of the physics of a Fiber-hosted laser, Which would be the most common type of laser on Rift earths given its simplicity of design.

The gain medium of a laser is a material of controlled purity, size, concentration, and shape, which amplifies the beam by the process of stimulated emission. It can be of any state: gas, liquid, solid or plasma. The gain medium absorbs pump energy, which raises some electrons into higher-energy ("excited") quantum states. Particles can interact with light both by absorbing photons or by emitting photons. Emission can be spontaneous or stimulated. In the latter case, the photon is emitted in the same direction as the light that is passing by. When the number of particles in one excited state exceeds the number of particles in some lower-energy state, population inversion is achieved and the amount of stimulated emissions due to light that passes through is larger than the amount of absorption. Hence, the light is amplified. By itself, this makes an optical amplifier. When an optical amplifier is placed inside a resonant optical cavity, one obtains a laser.


The light generated by stimulated emission is very similar to the input signal in terms of wavelength, phase, and polarization. This gives laser light its characteristic coherence, and allows it to maintain the uniform polarization and often monochromaticity established by the optical cavity design.

Now a laser would work in laments terms like a Disrupter pistol from Star Trek, than like a Plasma or concentrated blow torch, there are ways to make a laser perform these functions but they require specific non-efficient designs to be employed to make it happen.

Si in essence the bursters heat would if using real life physics would amplify the beams efficiency causing it to disrupt even more materials, As heat only agitates molecular matter even more. But that is why trying to add real psychics to a sci-fi game is ludicrous, Now that you know how a laser really works. Please show us all a man or women who can burst into flames and control it with there mind.

How the laser beam is created tells us very little about how it would damage living things. I'm going to defer here to glitterboy2098, which I'm quoting from another thread:

weaponized lasers fire pulses of energy that cause impact shock. they vaporize small quantities of matter so fast that it can't dissipate slowly, and eruption in an explosion of pressure. doesn't even cauterize, except at the direct point of impact. most of the damage is done by the explosive force of the lasers impact, not the beam itself.

The extremely fast transfer of energy to a target creates heat, so much heat that whatever you hit vapourizes in a tiny amount, that expands violently, and whatever you shot partially explodes. But it's heat - and if you're immune to heat, you should be immune to the damaging effect of lasers, in my opinion.

[Nekira Sudacne]

laser are Light based damage, not heat based damage.

[Nekira Sudacne]

laser are Light based damage, not heat based damage.

I don't know...RUE pg 358 under "How M.D. Weapons Work" states that lasers, ion and plasma all do lots of burning/heat damage. Like I said it's not unreasonable for a burster to at least take half damage from lasers/ion given that they are immune to heat and take 1/2 dmg from electricity.

Lasers are light. End of story. You can't focus on science too much, just let it roll...

[Killer Cyborg]

Just be aware of the ramifications of this ruling. Creatures with resistance to fire and impervious to fire are a dime a dozen in Rifts. If lasers deal damage based on heat, then you have to realize that there will be a ripple effect throughout the entire game. One of the meta-game concepts behind lasers is that they are popular because they are so versatile. If you suddenly make a ton of monsters resistant or immune to them, then they are not quite so useful and you have to think of another reason for why lasers are so popular.

Exactly.
There's too much out there that's impervious or resistant to heat attacks for the world to make sense if it would prevent laser damage.

[Dead Boy]

Just be aware of the ramifications of this ruling. Creatures with resistance to fire and impervious to fire are a dime a dozen in Rifts. If lasers deal damage based on heat, then you have to realize that there will be a ripple effect throughout the entire game. One of the meta-game concepts behind lasers is that they are popular because they are so versatile. If you suddenly make a ton of monsters resistant or immune to them, then they are not quite so useful and you have to think of another reason for why lasers are so popular.

The old "slippery slope" argument doesn't really hold water here, (besides which, it's a logical fallacy). The Burster power in question here is expressly called "Impervious to Fire and Heat", in effect creating a segregation in the distinctions between just Fire, and the broader more encompassing category of Heat. Ergo, any conclusions or general consensus that comes out of this should have no bearing on creatures that have immunities to "Fire", be it through magic or some innate ability.

And besides which, the common-as-dirt spell of Impervious to Energy has been around since day one in this game. Any baddie with access to magical resistance to fire is bound to already have that old defensive staple in his spell book. So really, that unbalancing agent has been out of the bag for a long, long time, making it a little bit late to be crying about "game balance".
(Sorry if I got a bit snippy there.)

[Dead Boy]

laser are Light based damage, not heat based damage.

I don't know...RUE pg 358 under "How M.D. Weapons Work" states that lasers, ion and plasma all do lots of burning/heat damage. Like I said it's not unreasonable for a burster to at least take half damage from lasers/ion given that they are immune to heat and take 1/2 dmg from electricity.

Lasers are light. End of story. You can't focus on science too much, just let it roll...

And "fire" is super heated, luminescent fumes, but that doesn't make it a "gas" based attack.

Photons transmit and impart heat, causing burning, cauterizing, and in extreme cases as Gliterboy2098 was quotes as saying, trigger violent vaproific effects. But it's the laser's transmission/stimulation of heat that's the starting point for all that fun stuff.

Not trying to answer my own question here, but it's hard to ignore the facts.
(and again, like before, sorry if I came off as being snippy)

[Killer Cyborg]

Just be aware of the ramifications of this ruling. Creatures with resistance to fire and impervious to fire are a dime a dozen in Rifts. If lasers deal damage based on heat, then you have to realize that there will be a ripple effect throughout the entire game. One of the meta-game concepts behind lasers is that they are popular because they are so versatile. If you suddenly make a ton of monsters resistant or immune to them, then they are not quite so useful and you have to think of another reason for why lasers are so popular.

The old "slippery slope" argument doesn't really hold water here, (besides which, it's a logical fallacy).

It's not a slippery slope argument, and slippery slope arguments aren't always fallacies in any case.
A slippery slope argument is based on the notion that if something happens, and if something else happens as a result, and if something else happens, etc., then something else is a certainty.
As Wikipedia says, " A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step inevitably leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant impact, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.[1] The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B."

That's not what he's saying here.
All he's doing is pointing out that there's a LOT of stuff that is impervious to heat/fire attacks, and if lasers are heat attacks, then there's a lot of stuff that would be impervious.
It's a simple A + B = C equation, with nothing slippery about it.

The Burster power in question here is expressly called "Impervious to Fire and Heat", in effect creating a segregation in the distinctions between just Fire, and the broader more encompassing category of Heat.

No, it's denoting that heat and fire are considered the same thing.
If there are any creatures/powers that make the defender immune to fire without making them immune to heat, feel free to find them and point them out to the rest of us.

Ergo, any conclusions or general consensus that comes out of this should have no bearing on creatures that have immunities to "Fire", be it through magic or some innate ability.

And besides which, the common-as-dirt spell of Impervious to Energy has been around since day one in this game.

Yup.
Which means that anything that can cast that spell can become impervious to laser fire.
Your ruling would mean that anything that can cast that spell, or that can cast spells that make them impervious to fire, or that have the psionic ability of Impervious To Fire, or that has a natural imperviousness to fire, would all be immune to laser attacks.
Flame Wind Dragons, for example, would be immune to laser fire without having to cast a spell, and most (all?) other kinds of dragons would only take half damage.
The books are so full of creatures and abilities that take half or no damage from heat/fire attacks that lasers would be of relatively little use compared to ion or particle beam weapons, not to mention railguns.

[Talavar]

So a lot of things are resistant/immune to lasers by interpreting it thusly - the same is already true of plasma weapons, and it gives a reason for ion weapons & particle beams to exist.

In Rifts, so many things are immune/resistant to energy weapons (or can become so) everyone should be packing some form of MD slug thrower already, and yet that category of weapon is almost non-existent for people not strong enough to haul 100+ lbs rail guns around.

[Nekira Sudacne]

laser are Light based damage, not heat based damage.

I don't know...RUE pg 358 under "How M.D. Weapons Work" states that lasers, ion and plasma all do lots of burning/heat damage. Like I said it's not unreasonable for a burster to at least take half damage from lasers/ion given that they are immune to heat and take 1/2 dmg from electricity.

Lasers are light. End of story. You can't focus on science too much, just let it roll...

And "fire" is super heated, luminescent fumes, but that doesn't make it a "gas" based attack.

Photons transmit and impart heat, causing burning, cauterizing, and in extreme cases as Gliterboy2098 was quotes as saying, trigger violent vaproific effects. But it's the laser's transmission/stimulation of heat that's the starting point for all that fun stuff.

Not trying to answer my own question here, but it's hard to ignore the facts.
(and again, like before, sorry if I came off as being snippy)

How is it hard? I'm ignoring it without any effort at all

[Killer Cyborg]

So a lot of things are resistant/immune to lasers by interpreting it thusly - the same is already true of plasma weapons, and it gives a reason for ion weapons & particle beams to exist.

In Rifts, so many things are immune/resistant to energy weapons (or can become so) everyone should be packing some form of MD slug thrower already, and yet that category of weapon is almost non-existent for people not strong enough to haul 100+ lbs rail guns around.

Actually, other than mages who know the spell Impervious to Energy (or Invulnerability), and who have time to cast it, not much is impervious to energy weapons in general.

[Talavar]

So a lot of things are resistant/immune to lasers by interpreting it thusly - the same is already true of plasma weapons, and it gives a reason for ion weapons & particle beams to exist.

In Rifts, so many things are immune/resistant to energy weapons (or can become so) everyone should be packing some form of MD slug thrower already, and yet that category of weapon is almost non-existent for people not strong enough to haul 100+ lbs rail guns around.

Actually, other than mages who know the spell Impervious to Energy (or Invulnerability), and who have time to cast it, not much is impervious to energy weapons in general.

I did say immune/resistant....

You're right, only mages can be outright immune (as well as some supernatural baddies & creatures of magic), but a number of things are resistant to one or some forms of energy, and very little in Rifts is resistant or immune to kinetic damage.

[Killer Cyborg]

So a lot of things are resistant/immune to lasers by interpreting it thusly - the same is already true of plasma weapons, and it gives a reason for ion weapons & particle beams to exist.

In Rifts, so many things are immune/resistant to energy weapons (or can become so) everyone should be packing some form of MD slug thrower already, and yet that category of weapon is almost non-existent for people not strong enough to haul 100+ lbs rail guns around.

Actually, other than mages who know the spell Impervious to Energy (or Invulnerability), and who have time to cast it, not much is impervious to energy weapons in general.

I did say immune/resistant....

You're right, only mages can be outright immune (as well as some supernatural baddies & creatures of magic), but a number of things are resistant to one or some forms of energy, and very little in Rifts is resistant or immune to kinetic damage.

Some forms, sure.
Lasers? Not really.
That's why Glitterboys and other laser-resistant armors are significant.

[Dead Boy]

The old "slippery slope" argument doesn't really hold water here, (besides which, it's a logical fallacy).

It's not a slippery slope argument, and slippery slope arguments aren't always fallacies in any case.

All he's doing is pointing out that there's a LOT of stuff that is impervious to heat/fire attacks, and if lasers are heat attacks, then there's a lot of stuff that would be impervious.
It's a simple A + B = C equation, with nothing slippery about it.

Firstly, it is a Slippery Slope argument because he was warning of one thing triggering off a domino effect, (one that I disagree would happen in part; see below).

Secondly, this still doesn't address the issue of why laser damage wouldn't be considered to be heat damage, (please stay on topic and not derail it with tangents, which I admit, I partly contributed to).

Thirdly, now that I'm re-reading the Impervious to Fire psi power, Sam The Dagger may have a point after all. It gives a blanket coverage against a wide variety of "heat" related damage, including "fire, boiling water, hot coals, and so on" (RUE 168). However the implication of the listed examples is that they are all SDC in nature, and not MD. Consequently, as a GM I would rule that a character with the power of Impervious to Fire would be immune to SDC lasers, and take half damage from MD Magic Fires to their person (not armor, obviously).

Regardless of that concession regarding the veracity of Sam's slippery slope, in the text of the Impervious to Fire, I'm seeing support for the idea that the Bursters' master-level psi power of Impervious to Fire and Heat should apply to lasers as well. The wide variety of immunities ranging from flames to coals to boiling water goes to this power's versatility so long as "heat" is the primary contributor to the damage dealt. And the inclusion of MD plasma, napalm, and dragon's fire clearly puts that immunity in the MD range or efficiency.

And besides which, the common-as-dirt spell of Impervious to Energy has been around since day one in this game.

Yup.
Which means that anything that can cast that spell can become impervious to laser fire.
Your ruling would mean that anything that can cast that spell, or that can cast spells that make them impervious to fire, or that have the psionic ability of Impervious To Fire, or that has a natural imperviousness to fire, would all be immune to laser attacks.

I would say it depends on the degree that they are "impervious". As I pointed out before all the examples listed in the psi power Impervious to Fire were SDC in nature, and thus inapplicable to attacks in the MD range, (possibly baring magic fire).

Flame Wind Dragons, for example, would be immune to laser fire without having to cast a spell, and most (all?) other kinds of dragons would only take half damage.

Well, they are essentially "Dragon Bursters", and the description of the power does note MD-scale immunity. So yes, if the Burster is ruled to be immune to MD lasers, so would the Flame Wind Dragon. They are in the Burster family after all.

The books are so full of creatures and abilities that take half or no damage from heat/fire attacks that lasers ...

Beyond the Flame Wind Dragon and Bursters (and burster-like classes such as that flaming tiger mutant in SA, which are just glorified Bursters with a different special effect for all intents and purposes), name three where the description of their fire resistance power expressly notes immunity in the MD range.

And then after that, circle back and explain how laser damage isn't caused by heat since that's what this is all about after all.

Not trying to answer my own question here, but it's hard to ignore the facts.

How is it hard? I'm ignoring it without any effort at all

So I see.

[ingexthefuryhunter1]

It seems to me that no matter what answer we give Dead boy, he isn't going to like it unless it is "his answer" So here is an easy answer for ya, If you don't like the idea that the burster doesn't get this nifty little glitch right off, House rule it.

There is a reason there is an Errata for every Game system out there, and that reason is Rules lawyers are ever where and they love to sue the Game masters and creators for not creating a system that is written in legal jargon so they can have there perfect system. So again if you find a perceived fault in the design of an OCC,PCC, or RCC house rule the change. But don't set there and argue over the answers you are given after you have ask the questions. Because if you wanted to see how many people thought the same thing as you. It might have been better to state that instead of asking the question you did.

Thank you and have a nice day.

( Oh and sorry if this came off as snippy it wasn't meant to, it just erks me when some one argues after asking for oppionions and then bashes those that don't meet there idea of the right answer)

[Anthar]

Now this is Munchkin, trying to give an immunity to a class/creature that was not intended through obscure logic. Shame on you.

[Killer Cyborg]

The old "slippery slope" argument doesn't really hold water here, (besides which, it's a logical fallacy).

It's not a slippery slope argument, and slippery slope arguments aren't always fallacies in any case.

All he's doing is pointing out that there's a LOT of stuff that is impervious to heat/fire attacks, and if lasers are heat attacks, then there's a lot of stuff that would be impervious.
It's a simple A + B = C equation, with nothing slippery about it.

Firstly, it is a Slippery Slope argument because he was warning of one thing triggering off a domino effect, (one that I disagree would happen in part; see below).

No, he was warning that one thing would trigger one effect.
Allowing immunity/resistance to fire to negate laser damage would allow countless creatures and classes to be immune/resistant to the most common weapon in the game world.

Secondly, this still doesn't address the issue of why laser damage wouldn't be considered to be heat damage, (please stay on topic and not derail it with tangents, which I admit, I partly contributed to).

That IS the reason. There is no in-game reason, only one of game balance.
The writers want it this way, therefore it is.
Feel perfectly free to house-rule anything more realistic.

Thirdly, now that I'm re-reading the Impervious to Fire psi power, Sam The Dagger may have a point after all. It gives a blanket coverage against a wide variety of "heat" related damage, including "fire, boiling water, hot coals, and so on" (RUE 168).

Correct.

However the implication of the listed examples is that they are all SDC in nature, and not MD.

Incorrect. Fire can be MD or SDC.

in the text of the Impervious to Fire, I'm seeing support for the idea that the Bursters' master-level psi power of Impervious to Fire and Heat should apply to lasers as well.

And maybe it should.
Doesn't, though.

Flame Wind Dragons, for example, would be immune to laser fire without having to cast a spell, and most (all?) other kinds of dragons would only take half damage.

Well, they are essentially "Dragon Bursters", and the description of the power does note MD-scale immunity. So yes, if the Burster is ruled to be immune to MD lasers, so would the Flame Wind Dragon. They are in the Burster family after all.

And all other dragons must be Burster cousins, since they take half damage from heat.
And all other creatures that are impervious to fire must also be Burster relatives- uncles, aunts, grandfathers or such.
Considering the size of the burster "family," can you find any evidence anywhere that the authors intended resistance and immunity to heat/fire attacks to protect at all from lasers?
Any mention of this anywhere in roughly 20 years worth of books?

The books are so full of creatures and abilities that take half or no damage from heat/fire attacks that lasers ...

Beyond the Flame Wind Dragon and Bursters (and burster-like classes such as that flaming tiger mutant in SA, which are just glorified Bursters with a different special effect for all intents and purposes), name three where the description of their fire resistance power expressly notes immunity in the MD range.

Any MDC being that has any heat/fire resistance/immunity would apply that resistance/immunity to MD heat attacks. Otherwise there would be no point in having it, since SDC heat attacks wouldn't hurt it in any case.

So here's a list of some MDC beings that list immunity or resistance to heat/fire attacks:
Dragons
Demon-Dragonmages
Dragon Apes
Dragon-Cats
Lipocas
Vyarnects
Aqua-Hydras
Crab Warriors
Horned Whale
Mountain Giants (have the Impervious to Fire psionic ability)
Giant Canyon Worms
Great Dream Snakes
Oborus-Slitherer
Tree-Spiders
Worm Wraiths
Gods (as a general rule)
Phoenixi
Tautons
Crocodillians
Jinn
Kryygorth Shellbacks
Staphra Warlords
Armored Slayers
Alu Demon Hounds
Ghouls/Nasu
Lasae
Baal-Rog
Demon Locusts
Gallu, the Demon Bull
Magots
Night Owls
Raksasha
The Lords of Hades
Devilkins
Fenry
Fiends
Gorgons
Imps
Greater Deevils
Deevil Lords
Dar'ota
Dimension Ghouls
Dybbuk
Garkain
Goqua
Hell Hounds
Mindolar
Nightlords
Asurk-Demonians
Dakini Demon Women
Red Flame Demon Lords
Xiticix Leapers (psionic ability)
Xiticix Queens (young and elder)
Amazons
Soul Worms
Pogtalian Dragon Slayers
Wraith Brigades
Blind Warrior Women (via their amulets of Armor of Ithan)

And quite a few otheres, I'm certain, from other books.

In addition:
-the Incan Undead RCC in South America II has a note that they take 1/2 damage "from all non-magical weapons except those that are fire-based (includes plasma weapons, but not ion, particle beam or laser weapons)
," showing that laser weapons are NOT considered to be fire-based.
-on p. 118 of Splynn Dimensional Market, there is a parasite called "Living Armor."
Among other abilities, it makes the host "impervious to natural heat/fire/cold."
It includes a parenthetical explanation of the word "natural" in this context: "non-magical and non-MDC."
-Spell-created Zombies take 1/2 damage from energy attacks, but full damage from fire.
It lists lasers among the energy attacks. (DC 67)
-Mega Juicers (and others) that are only invulnerable to normal fires/cold specify so.
-There are MD lasers and SDC lasers. If lasers are heat-based weapons for game purposes, then by your logic any SDC being that is hit by an SDC laser beam would still take 1/2 damage.

And then after that, circle back and explain how laser damage isn't caused by heat since that's what this is all about after all.

Because the writers count it as "energy" instead of "heat."

[Dead Boy]

It seems to me that no matter what answer we give Dead boy, he isn't going to like it unless it is "his answer" So here is an easy answer for ya, If you don't like the idea that the burster doesn't get this nifty little glitch right off, House rule it.

yea, I've bumped into that problem with KC on more than one occasion. After formulating his opinion his normal tactic is to drown out all dissenting voices with the sheer volume of posts till they just give up, allowing him to disregard that differing opinion as "House Rule" as opposed to his "solid, irrefutable, logically sound, inviolate, canon law". My problem is on the boards, relegating something that should be up for discussion to "House Rules" is like attaching a stigma to it that carries absolutely no weight in other discussions when the issue comes up again. Hence why I find myself dragged into these painfully protracted debates... often with KC.

... But don't set there and argue over the answers you are given after you have ask the questions. Because if you wanted to see how many people thought the same thing as you. It might have been better to state that instead of asking the question you did.

No, no. You're right to be irked by that. It's just that while the majority of the respondents seem to agree that laser damage should be classified as heat damage, the two primary opinion makers are saying something different with extremely week arguments to back up their positions. NS says that lasers are "light", and KC's position is that its a "game balance issue" or "general energy damage", and yet there's insufficient material to support those positions.

Try to think of my further posts more as fanning the flames of further discussion that might have been stymied if KS and NS had their way and drowned out all dissenting voices.
(Note: I not saying that as a slam, insult, or flame to KC or NS. I honestly do hold them and their opinions in high regard. But that is the effect they usually have on others.)

Secondly, this still doesn't address the issue of why laser damage wouldn't be considered to be heat damage, (please stay on topic and not derail it with tangents, which I admit, I partly contributed to).

That IS the reason. There is no in-game reason, only one of game balance.
The writers want it this way, therefore it is.

This is a game of squishy Vagabonds and god-like Dragons, all playable as player characters. Game balance was never an element in Rifts.

However the implication of the listed examples is that they are all SDC in nature, and not MD.

Incorrect. Fire can be MD or SDC.

If I may quote you from your own prior response to rebut that statement..
KC: "-on p. 118 of Splynn Dimensional Market, there is a parasite called "Living Armor."
Among other abilities, it makes the host "impervious to natural heat/fire/cold."
It includes a parenthetical explanation of the word "natural" in this context: "non-magical and non-MDC."

All the examples of head damage covered by Impervious to Fire would fall under those of what could be classified as "natural". And as you pointed out, Mega Damage is not natural. Ergo, those with that common, simple, 4 ISP power would NOT be immune to MD lasers if it were classified as heat damage, just as they are not immune to MD plasma (while Bursters are).

Well, they are essentially "Dragon Bursters", and the description of the power does note MD-scale immunity. So yes, if the Burster is ruled to be immune to MD lasers, so would the Flame Wind Dragon. They are in the Burster family after all.

And all other dragons must be Burster cousins, since they take half damage from heat.
And all other creatures that are impervious to fire must also be Burster relatives- uncles, aunts, grandfathers or such.

Well, they do take half damage from MD Plasma, which is definitely heat based, so maybe they should.

Beyond the Flame Wind Dragon and Bursters (and burster-like classes such as that flaming tiger mutant in SA, which are just glorified Bursters with a different special effect for all intents and purposes), name three where the description of their fire resistance power expressly notes immunity in the MD range.

So here's a list of some MDC beings that list immunity or resistance to heat/fire attacks:

And here is my rebuttal to that list, (and with a list like that, you should have given book and page numbers too).

Dragons: Addressed above, generally not immune but takes 1/2 damage
Dragon-Ape: Not immune; takes half damage. Also no explicit immunity to MD
Dragon Cat: Not immune; takes half damage. Also no explicit immunity to MD
Lipocas:(aka, "Sun Demon" of course they should be resistent, even under NS's definition of "light damage") Not immune; takes half damage. Also no explicit immunity to MD.
Vyarnects: Not immune; takes half damage. Also no explicit immunity to MD. Counter balanced with vulnerability to silver (double damage).
Aqua-Hydras: Not immune; takes half damage. Also no explicit immunity to MD.
Crab Warriors: Not immune; takes half damage. Also no explicit immunity to MD.
Horned Whale: Not immune; takes half damage. Also no explicit immunity to MD.
Mountain Giants (have the Impervious to Fire psionic ability): As noted before, there is no reason to believe that the minor psi ability is applicable to attacks in the MD range.
Giant Canyon Worms: Not immune; takes half damage. Also no explicit immunity to MD.
Great Dream Snakes: Covered above; looks to be a powerful Dragon by another name. Also, I'n not seeing anything expressly about immunity to fire unless you count the minor psi power, which doesn't cut it.
Oborus-Slitherer: Not immune; takes half damage. Also no explicit immunity to MD.
Tree-Spiders: Not immune; takes half damage. Also no explicit immunity to MD.
Worm Wraiths: Not immune; takes half damage. Also no explicit immunity to MD.
Gods (as a general rule): Well duh!

I could go on but I'm coming across a central theme amongst the vast majority of these, "Not immune; takes half damage. Also no explicit immunity to MD." I know, you take issue with that later condition of there being explicit notations about the ability extending to MD attacks, or even an example where that could be inferred, because why would it be necessary if they have MDC skins? But consider this; most of those above also had resistance to cold listed in the same breath. Perhaps in these cases their natural ability vs heat and cold is more of an environmental protection rather than that of a combat oriented one as it is with Dragons and Bursters, where the use of "fire" for most others was never intended to be extended to all manner of heat-related attacks.

In addition:
-the Incan Undead RCC in South America II has a note that they take 1/2 damage "from all non-magical weapons except those that are fire-based (includes plasma weapons, but not ion, particle beam or laser weapons)," showing that laser weapons are NOT considered to be fire-based.
-Spell-created Zombies take 1/2 damage from energy attacks, but full damage from fire.
It lists lasers among the energy attacks. (DC 67)

That could have more to do with the coverage of the attack than it's heat-based nature. Plasma spreads out while lasers may be too pin-point to cause any sufficient debilitating effects on the undead. Also because the undead tend to be desiccated, ans such the greater damage brought about though explosive vaprific effects as Glitterboy2098 described may not be possible. That may indicate that Spell-created Zombies just tend to be "juicier".

Also, when it comes to the supernatural, many things are taken on a case by case basis, such as what hurts them and what doesn't.

-Mega Juicers (and others) that are only invulnerable to normal fires/cold specify so.

Incorrect. The passage actually reads, "Virtually impervious to ... normal ranged of heat and cold" (JU 38) That's about environmental protection, not damage from attacks.

-There are MD lasers and SDC lasers. If lasers are heat-based weapons for game purposes, then by your logic any SDC being that is hit by an SDC laser beam would still take 1/2 damage.

Hu? Why on God's green Earth would normal people automatically take half damage from heat-based damage? I'm just going to assume you wrote that point when you were tired and not thinking clearly.

And then after that, circle back and explain how laser damage isn't caused by heat since that's what this is all about after all.

Because the writers count it as "energy" instead of "heat."

If that was their intent, you think they would have said something to that effect somewhere in the pages of the 40+ books that have come out to date.

[Dead Boy]

Ya know what? Instead of just squabbling over this, going over semantics and digging up obscure references so they can be spun in the direction of whoever's argument, I'm just going to edit the original post and add a poll so we can get a popular vote going so all voices count.

Because lets face it. We've all seen it in the past how when KC and I but heads, it can go on, an on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on... till the topic becomes irrelevant and diluted with so many tangents it borders on the ridiculous.

So come one, come all! One person, one vote! Let your voice be heard!

EDIT: Poll is now up, (which I wasn't sure I could do in an edit). The voting booths are open for business.

[Killer Cyborg]

It seems to me that no matter what answer we give Dead boy, he isn't going to like it unless it is "his answer" So here is an easy answer for ya, If you don't like the idea that the burster doesn't get this nifty little glitch right off, House rule it.

yea, I've bumped into that problem with KC on more than one occasion.

(psst.... he's talking about you....)

After formulating his opinion his normal tactic is to drown out all dissenting voices with the sheer volume of posts till they just give up, allowing him to disregard that differing opinion as "House Rule" as opposed to his "solid, irrefutable, logically sound, inviolate, canon law".

Not at all.
I post the facts, and support them from the books.
If you see a lot of posts from me when we argue, I suppose that's because there's a lot of stuff in the books that goes against your side.

KC's position is that its a "game balance issue" or "general energy damage", and yet there's insufficient material to support those positions.

Find ANYTHING in ANY of the books that treats lasers as heat damage.
Anything at all.
...
No...?

Okay, then.
Meanwhile, there are dozens of cases where they're treated differently.

So how is it supposed to be at all unclear whether lasers are treated as heat weapons or not?

Game balance was never an element in Rifts.

Manure.

But if you want to say there's no game balance, then I suppose there must be a different reason why lasers don't count as heat damage.
That doesn't change the fact that they do not count as heat damage.

However the implication of the listed examples is that they are all SDC in nature, and not MD.

Incorrect. Fire can be MD or SDC.

If I may quote you from your own prior response to rebut that statement..
KC: "-on p. 118 of Splynn Dimensional Market, there is a parasite called "Living Armor."
Among other abilities, it makes the host "impervious to natural heat/fire/cold."
It includes a parenthetical explanation of the word "natural" in this context: "non-magical and non-MDC."

All the examples of head damage covered by Impervious to Fire would fall under those of what could be classified as "natural".[/quote]

Incorrect. Fire can be MD or SDC.

And since you didn't seem to grok that concept last time, I'll elaborate.
The example is NOT:
-a campfire
-a lit match
-a torch
-a blowtorch
-a SDC flamethrower
-or any other SDC specific example.

The example is "Fire."
Period.
And there are MD fires, and there are SDC fires.
Fire can be MD or SDC.
And there are no limitations on the power. It makes you immune to "fire," not "natural fire," or "SDC fire."
Just "fire."

Well, they are essentially "Dragon Bursters", and the description of the power does note MD-scale immunity. So yes, if the Burster is ruled to be immune to MD lasers, so would the Flame Wind Dragon. They are in the Burster family after all.

And all other dragons must be Burster cousins, since they take half damage from heat.
And all other creatures that are impervious to fire must also be Burster relatives- uncles, aunts, grandfathers or such.

Well, they do take half damage from MD Plasma, which is definitely heat based, so maybe they should.

Yeah, that must be it.

Beyond the Flame Wind Dragon and Bursters (and burster-like classes such as that flaming tiger mutant in SA, which are just glorified Bursters with a different special effect for all intents and purposes), name three where the description of their fire resistance power expressly notes immunity in the MD range.

So here's a list of some MDC beings that list immunity or resistance to heat/fire attacks:

And here is my rebuttal to that list, (and with a list like that, you should have given book and page numbers too).

Dragons: Addressed above, generally not immune but takes 1/2 damage

You asked for fire resistance. Resistance gives 1/2 damage.
Immunity gives full resistance.
I misread your post and thought you were asking for both, when in reality you were asking for something that doesn't exist; resistance that gives immunity.
My bad.

But I don't see how it makes any difference, unless you're saying that lasers are heat damage, but that it wouldn't affect the game world because there's a heck of a lot of creatures that would still take half damage from lasers...?

Also no explicit immunity to MD.

As I already said, they're MDC creatures.
You think the writers are making up MDC creatures that take 1/2 damage from SDC fires...?
And that this theory makes more sense than the notion that the 1/2 damage rule applies to fires that actually damage the creature in the first place?
You know... MD fires.

As noted before, there is no reason to believe that the minor psi ability is applicable to attacks in the MD range.

a) It makes you immune to fire, not "SDC fire."
b) The writers gave this power to a MDC creature. You really think that the writers decided that this creature needed a power that would let it take 1/2 damage from something that it doesn't take any damage from anyway?
c) The power makes you take 1/2 damage from magic fire.
-Can you think of any magical fires in Rifts that inflict SDC damage?
-If not, then your interpretation leaves you with a power that doesn't protect against MD fires... unless they're magical MD fires, in which case you get 50% protection.
This makes sense to you?

Gods (as a general rule): Well duh!

Of course.
But they're not bursters, so they meet the criteria you asked for.

I could go on but I'm coming across a central theme amongst the vast majority of these, "Not immune; takes half damage. Also no explicit immunity to MD."

Actually, there were quite a few of them that did indeed specify immunity to MD fires.
But since they're all MDC creatures and are already impervious to normal fires, I figured I'd rest on the obviousness of the fact that they wouldn't be given resistance to something that couldn't affect them in the first place.

consider this; most of those above also had resistance to cold listed in the same breath. Perhaps in these cases their natural ability vs heat and cold is more of an environmental protection rather than that of a combat oriented one as it is with Dragons and Bursters, where the use of "fire" for most others was never intended to be extended to all manner of heat-related attacks.

What makes you think that cold is more of an environmental factor than a combat oriented factor?

In addition:
-the Incan Undead RCC in South America II has a note that they take 1/2 damage "from all non-magical weapons except those that are fire-based (includes plasma weapons, but not ion, particle beam or laser weapons)," showing that laser weapons are NOT considered to be fire-based.
-Spell-created Zombies take 1/2 damage from energy attacks, but full damage from fire.
It lists lasers among the energy attacks. (DC 67)

That could have more to do with the coverage of the attack than it's heat-based nature.

There's nothing to indicate any such thing.
Wishful thinking on your part.

-Mega Juicers (and others) that are only invulnerable to normal fires/cold specify so.

Incorrect. The passage actually reads, "Virtually impervious to ... normal ranged of heat and cold" (JU 38) That's about environmental protection, not damage from attacks.

Showing that when the protection is specifically environmental instead of combat, that's what the book says.

(I was counting a campfire-type SDC as a "normal range of heat," but if you don't, that's cool)

-There are MD lasers and SDC lasers. If lasers are heat-based weapons for game purposes, then by your logic any SDC being that is hit by an SDC laser beam would still take 1/2 damage.

Hu? Why on God's green Earth would normal people automatically take half damage from heat-based damage?

I didn't mean to throw you off-track by leaving the "any SDC being that has resistance to fire/heat" part unsaid.

My point was simply this:
You are operating under the assumption that if a power does not specify that it protects from MD level fire/heat, then it only protects against SDC level fire/heat.
You are operating under the assumption that lasers are heat weapons.

Combine these two, and any SDC being (I never said "normal people") that has resistance to heat would take half damage from SDC lasers.
So any psychic with the "Impervious to to Fire" power would, by your logic, if I'm following you, would be impervious to SDC lasers.
Any SDC being with the Pyrokinesis power would take half damage from SDC lasers
(BTW, magic fires do full damage to the psychic. Is this just talking about the mysterious SDC magic fires, or all magic fire?).

And then after that, circle back and explain how laser damage isn't caused by heat since that's what this is all about after all.

Because the writers count it as "energy" instead of "heat."

If that was their intent, you think they would have said something to that effect somewhere in the pages of the 40+ books that have come out to date.[/quote]

They have.
Every time they refer to lasers by damage type, they count them as energy.

At no time, ever, do they refer to lasers as heat damage.
Not once, in 20 years.

[Killer Cyborg]

I love how neither side is willing to compromise and go with my suggested half damage from other energy weapons like the Zapper has and the burster already has with electricity.

That's fine for a house rule.
But I don't have the authority to compromise on what the rules of the game actually are.

[Killer Cyborg]

I love how neither side is willing to compromise and go with my suggested half damage from other energy weapons like the Zapper has and the burster already has with electricity.

That's fine for a house rule.
But I don't have the authority to compromise on what the rules of the game actually are.

I don't believe you get official response in Q&A usually. From what I read it seems that lots of people give their opinions. The OP states whether any of those answers works for him then the mods or someone from PB takes the agreed upon answer and posts it in the Q&A section for future gamers to reference quickly.

However if neither side works with the other and comes to an agreement you rarely get to the point where there is a workable answer.

Not so much.
The way it seems to work is that somebody asks what a rule is.
Somebody else tells what the rule is.
If the Querent accepts the answer, and the mods like the answer accepted, then the mods eventually close the thread and post the answer that they like.
If the Querent does not accept the answer, then the mods eventually close the thread and post the answer that they like, or the conversation eventually stalls and the thread sinks to the bottom of the pile where it's eventually deleted.

But the general idea of the Q&A thread is NOT to get opinions, but to get official answer (or our best guesses at what the official answers are).
In this case, it seems pretty clear that lasers are not considered to be heat weapons as far as the official rules go.

[Killer Cyborg]

In this case, it seems pretty clear that lasers are not considered to be heat weapons as far as the official rules go.

Doesn't seem clear to me

Okay, how not?
Other than the below issue, what have you found in the game that indicates that lasers are considered to be heat weapons?
What is your explanation as to why none of the abilities that protect you from heat ever mention laser beams, even though they frequently mention plasma?
What is your explanation for stuff like the Incan Undead RCC in South America II, which has a note that they take 1/2 damage "from all non-magical weapons except those that are fire-based (includes plasma weapons, but not ion, particle beam or laser weapons)?

The poll added later seems to be broken/expired since I was never allowed to vote and a RL friend can't vote either, therefore the poll is useless.

It would have been anyway.

Besides the official rules on RUE pg 358 do list them as heat weapons, at least in part, which is why I think they should do 1/2 damage.

Actually, the official rules on RUE 358 do not list them as anything, much less heat weapons.
They mention that lasers "burn and cauterize the flesh," but all that means is that there is heat- not that the majority of the damage is caused by heat.
The full sentence is:
"Lasers burn and cauterize the flesh as they cut through SDC bodies."
The lasers are doing two things there, and the "burn and cauterize" part is secondary; it's a byproduct or side-effect of the main action of "cut through SDC bodies."
Kind of like if you say, "Killer Cyborg sang a little song as he drove his APC over the enemy soldiers," the main action taking place is the driving, not the singing.

Also, if you want to take that passage as proof that lasers are heat weapons, then you'll have to do the same thing with Ion Beams, because later on the same page it mentions that they "burn and irradiate" the entire severed limb.
So now everybody and their dog* can use their resistance/immunity to heat to protect them not just from fire, plasma and lasers, but also from ion beams.



*yes, that's a clear exaggeration.

[Dead Boy]

I love how neither side is willing to compromise and go with my suggested half damage from other energy weapons like the Zapper has and the burster already has with electricity. It would in no way imbalance the Burster and there is absolutely no reason to apply it to monster fire resist. The burster would simply be closer to the power level of a Zapper which is as it should be since they are very similar classes.

To be honest, dude. I'd be more than happy to settle with half damage. Unfortunately the way the Burster power is written, unfortunately cannonistically, it's all or nothing.

But given the precedent by the Zapper and the open ambiguity of what all is included in the Burster's list of what constitutes "heat", if the mods were willing to go with that, I'd be willing to slap the "Answer Accepted" stamp of approval on it. However I kind of doubt they would.

BTW how do I vote in the poll? Won't give me an option.

The poll should be at the very top of the page, as usual. Sometimes when the screen comes up, it starts just below items like polls. Just scroll up.

KC's position is that its a "game balance issue" or "general energy damage", and yet there's insufficient material to support those positions.

Find ANYTHING in ANY of the books that treats lasers as heat damage.
Anything at all.

I did, in the very first post. RUE pg. 358 clearly describes burning heat related effects when it describes how lasers damage the human body.

You are operating under the assumption that if a power does not specify that it protects from MD level fire/heat, then it only protects against SDC level fire/heat.

For a dinky 4 ISP power like Impervious to Fire, yes. But perhaps this should be the subject of a different string.

And then after that, circle back and explain how laser damage isn't caused by heat since that's what this is all about after all.

Because the writers count it as "energy" instead of "heat."

If that was their intent, you think they would have said something to that effect somewhere in the pages of the 40+ books that have come out to date.

They have.
Every time they refer to lasers by damage type, they count them as energy.

I've seen the same entries you're speaking about, and just as often the writers include other so called kinds of attacks in with lasers as "energy" too, including ion beams, particle beams, and plasma... But wait... plasma is classified as "heat" as well, showing that things can fit into more than just one classification. Think of it this way. A magic fire bolt can be both magic and fire. The same is true of the Call Lightning spell, being both magic and electricity. There's no need to pigeon-hole them into one classification or the other when both are perfectly applicable. Lasers too could be seen in the same light (no pun intended). Yes, lasers are "energy". They are "light" too, as well as "heat". .... Hmmm, the more I write this, the more I think Lobo is on the right path in calling for half-damage, (I think another edit in the poll is called for, since there are only 4 respondents so far ... EDIT: And by doing so, it looks like I reset the whole friggin' poll Guess I won't be doing that again ... You four people who already voted might want to vote again ).

[Anthar]

Please stop kicking the dead cat, it's quite unpleasant to watch Mr Munchkin Man.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, how not?
Other than the below issue, what have you found in the game that indicates that lasers are considered to be heat weapons?
What is your explanation as to why none of the abilities that protect you from heat ever mention laser beams, even though they frequently mention plasma?
What is your explanation for stuff like the Incan Undead RCC in South America II, which has a note that they take 1/2 damage "from all non-magical weapons except those that are fire-based (includes plasma weapons, but not ion, particle beam or laser weapons)?

Incan undead are undead, fire could symbolically damage them.

Okay, you've answered one of the 4 questions above.

Besides I would not give fire resist/vulnerable creatures any changes with laser/ion weapons unless they say they are immune to heat as well. (but I'd rather just give bursters 1/2 damage to energy instead)

If you're immune to fire, you're immune to heat, and vice-versa.

Also, if you want to take that passage as proof that lasers are heat weapons, then you'll have to do the same thing with Ion Beams, because later on the same page it mentions that they "burn and irradiate" the entire severed limb.
So now everybody and their dog* can use their resistance/immunity to heat to protect them not just from fire, plasma and lasers, but also from ion beams.

I have been saying Ion & laser weapons would do half damage to a burster all along.

But not just to bursters; to everything with resistance.
Although, really, if lasers are heat weapons, then they should do NO damage to Bursters at all.
Nor to anything else that's impervious to heat/fire.

Look lets just toss the whole heat thing aside. Just give bursters 1/2 to energy weapons like zappers have. They take half dmg from electricity and that is an energy (not heat) based attack according to Rifts rules as well. It won't imbalance bursters at all. In fact it will make the class less lame.

This forum isn't about house-rules; it's about rules.

And remember this is about getting some people to agree on something and get the mods to post it as Q&A mod rules.

No, it's not. It's about what the rules are.
And we can't change that by voting.

[Killer Cyborg]

Find ANYTHING in ANY of the books that treats lasers as heat damage.
Anything at all.

I did, in the very first post. RUE pg. 358 clearly describes burning heat related effects when it describes how lasers damage the human body.

Addressed.
That's not treating lasers as heat damage, it's just mentioning that MDC lasers have enough heat to cauterize SDC flesh as the laser cuts through the body.
And, as mentioned, that page also mentions that ion blasts burn SDC targets, so for consistency you should be lumping ion beams and lasers in together as heat weapons (though neither is in game terms).

You are operating under the assumption that if a power does not specify that it protects from MD level fire/heat, then it only protects against SDC level fire/heat.

For a dinky 4 ISP power like Impervious to Fire, yes. But perhaps this should be the subject of a different string.

Seems relevant here.
That power lets you take 1/2 damage from magic fire.
Magic fire, in Rifts, tends to be MDC.

Every time they refer to lasers by damage type, they count them as energy.

I've seen the same entries you're speaking about, and just as often the writers include other so called kinds of attacks in with lasers as "energy" too, including ion beams, particle beams, and plasma... But wait... plasma is classified as "heat" as well, showing that things can fit into more than just one classification.

Never said otherwise.
The part you quoted shows that lasers are classified as "energy."
The evidence that they're not classified as heat is the utter lack of any inclusion of them in any list of heat weapons.
Plasma is both Heat and Energy, and there are a zillion cases of them being mentioned as heat weapons, and a zillion cases of them being mentioned as energy weapons.
And with lasers....?
We've got the zillion cases of them being mentioned as energy.
Where are the mentions of them as heat weapons?
Where's the monster/power/spell description that says, "takes half damage from heat, including magical fire, plasma, and lasers?"

[Killer Cyborg]

it looks like I reset the whole friggin' poll Guess I won't be doing that again ... You four people who already voted might want to vote again ).

You might as well clear the poll up a bit, because it's unclear what you're asking.
Laser might be considered heat weapons in real life, but not in game terms.

Just do a simple:

"Do lasers count as heat weapons for game purposes?"
Yes
No
Other

[Anthar]

Just one little point, burns don't have to be heat based. Chemicals and radiation can burn things without heat and since lasers are radiation, well it make this whole arguement moot.

Lasers

[Killer Cyborg]

Just one little point, burns don't have to be heat based. Chemicals and radiation can burn things without heat

Yeah, I was going to point that out too.
But I figured they'd just argue that radiation is heat or something.

[Killer Cyborg]

Man looks like someone else got to vote. I have voted on other topics but this one has no choice for me. I just see the results .

Only way I know for that to happen is if you've already voted.

[Dead Boy]

it looks like I reset the whole friggin' poll Guess I won't be doing that again ... You four people who already voted might want to vote again ).

You might as well clear the poll up a bit, because it's unclear what you're asking.
Laser might be considered heat weapons in real life, but not in game terms.

Just do a simple:

"Do lasers count as heat weapons for game purposes?"
Yes
No
Other

If I alter it again and clear it out, I think they'll hunt me down and flush my head down the toilet. Besides, the poll as is gives the options reflecting the answers to date making it more valid in my opinion, (though I admit the 1/2 Damage option could have been worded differently).

[Dead Boy]

Man looks like someone else got to vote. I have voted on other topics but this one has no choice for me. I just see the results .

Only way I know for that to happen is if you've already voted.

nope there is no X next to any choice.

All I can say is, try the Refresh Button to see if it clears up. Frankly I'm wondering if it's more than just you who's having a hard time voting. So far there are only four votes up, including my own, (maybe they just don't care).

Just one little point, burns don't have to be heat based. Chemicals and radiation can burn things without heat

Yeah, I was going to point that out too.
But I figured they'd just argue that radiation is heat or something.

Actually I'd say that the explanation is in the laser's acronym itself; light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation. Radiation emissions (and they used the term "radiation" in a very broad sense of the word) are just the catalyst to begin the process of light amplification, not what is actually projected. Commonly the emissions are just a short jolt of electricity (the radiation) that stimulates a burst of photons to be released from the medium gas suspended in a tube between two mirrors. That's how an everyday laser pointer works anyhow, and given that weapons in Rifts work off an electrical power source (e-clips) they most likely work off a similar principle.

As for how weapons-grade lasers interact with their targets, one need look no further than the Airborne Laser being developed by the US Air Force. What it does is "It heats the missile skin, weakening it, causing failure from high speed flight stress." Though the ABL is a chemical laser, the principle of the beam's interaction with mater is pretty universal.

That's my last post on this string. As the guy who dragged out this old chestnut in the first place, I've probably said too much on the matter in the first place.

[Killer Cyborg]

Man looks like someone else got to vote. I have voted on other topics but this one has no choice for me. I just see the results .

Only way I know for that to happen is if you've already voted.

nope there is no X next to any choice.

Well, that's just messed up.

Probably should report it in the bugs section.

[Killer Cyborg]

Just one little point, burns don't have to be heat based. Chemicals and radiation can burn things without heat

Yeah, I was going to point that out too.
But I figured they'd just argue that radiation is heat or something.

Actually I'd say that the explanation is in the laser's acronym itself; light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation. Radiation emissions (and they used the term "radiation" in a very broad sense of the word) are just the catalyst to begin the process of light amplification, not what is actually projected. Commonly the emissions are just a short jolt of electricity (the radiation) that stimulates a burst of photons to be released from the medium gas suspended in a tube between two mirrors. That's how an everyday laser pointer works anyhow, and given that weapons in Rifts work off an electrical power source (e-clips) they most likely work off a similar principle.

None of that seems to affect anything that I said there.

As for how weapons-grade lasers interact with their targets, one need look no further than the Airborne Laser being developed by the US Air Force. What it does is "It heats the missile skin, weakening it, causing failure from high speed flight stress." Though the ABL is a chemical laser, the principle of the beam's interaction with mater is pretty universal.

The question is not how real-world lasers operate. It's pretty clear that they operate through by heating up the target.
The question is how lasers operate in the game world and whether or not they're considered to be heat weapons or something else.
And, other than one passage in RUE that mentions burns as a side effect of the weapon, there is nothing to indicate that they are considered such. This lack, especially considering the countless times where plasma weapons ARE described as heat weapons, indicates that they are NOT considered to be heat weapons.
And the mentioning of burns as a side effect is echoed in the passage about ion beams as well, so there's just as much "evidence" that ion weapons are heat weapons as there is that lasers are.
(And just as much evidence against)
And if there were passages describing the effects of MD lightning, or acid, or radiation bursts, then the words "burn" would likely be included there as well... but that wouldn't mean that any of those were considered to be heat weapons either.

[Killer Cyborg]

The question is not how real-world lasers operate. It's pretty clear that they operate through by heating up the target.
The question is how lasers operate in the game world and whether or not they're considered to be heat weapons or something else.

Hey if you didn't want to bring real world science into it then you and Anthar should not have tried to use RW science to refute it.

I didn't, other than agreeing with him that there are other ways to burn things than with heat/fire.

[kmspade]

OK here is my take on the whole laser damage thing:
Lasers do 1/2 of their damage from heat and 1/2 of their damage from light. Cite whatever real world scientific facts you want, but keep in mind that this is science-fiction

The argument that lasers do only heat damage does not make sense when considering the glitter boy. Why have reflective armor if lasers do only heat damage?
I think the same should hold true with bursters. They would also take half damage. The only difference is which half of the damage they take.

The glitter boy takes half damage from the heat part of the laser, while the burster would take half damage from the light part of the laser.

I think this is a simple solution that maintains the game balance.

[Dead Boy]

Not commenting on the argument any more, but the poll looks like it's buggy or something because the numbers just aren't adding up. We have 11 respondents, but only 4 in the poll above. Strange... Maybe it's because I added the poll as an edit, and the system doesn't seem to like that.

Anyhoo, based off the initial responses of everyone so far, this is where we stand.

Lasers inflict "heat" damage.: (3)
Laser damage is "light-based" damage.: (2)
Lasers fall into the category of "general energy".: (3)
Lasers are "heat-based", but it doesn't matter. It's a game balance issue.: (1)
Lasers damage is "heat", "light", AND "energy", (does 1/2 damage): (2)
Other (please explain).: (0)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mobuttu: General Energy
Talavar: Heat
ingexthefuryhunter1: General Energy
Archangel23: Heat
SamtheDagger: Light
Lobo: Half Damage
Nekira Sudacne: Light
Killer Cyborg: Game Balance
Dead Boy: Heat
Anthar: General Energy? (didn’t really say one way or the other)
Kmspade: Half Damage

[Killer Cyborg]

Not commenting on the argument any more, but the poll looks like it's buggy or something because the numbers just aren't adding up. We have 11 respondents, but only 4 in the poll above. Strange... Maybe it's because I added the poll as an edit, and the system doesn't seem to like that.

Anyhoo, based off the initial responses of everyone so far, this is where we stand.

Lasers inflict "heat" damage.: (3)
Laser damage is "light-based" damage.: (2)
Lasers fall into the category of "general energy".: (3)
Lasers are "heat-based", but it doesn't matter. It's a game balance issue.: (1)
Lasers damage is "heat", "light", AND "energy", (does 1/2 damage): (2)
Other (please explain).: (0)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mobuttu: General Energy
Talavar: Heat
ingexthefuryhunter1: General Energy
Archangel23: Heat
SamtheDagger: Light
Lobo: Half Damage
Nekira Sudacne: Light
Killer Cyborg: Game Balance
Dead Boy: Heat
Anthar: General Energy? (didn’t really say one way or the other)
Kmspade: Half Damage

Actually, I voted for "general energy."
As I said, it's unclear whether you're talking about in-game lasers or real-world lasers; it appears that you're asking about both, which is just messed up because then you'd need a crapload more answers, like:
"Lasers are "heat-based", but it doesn't matter. In the game it's _________"
filling in the blank with "light" or "general energy" or "heat, light, and energy," or "light and energy" or whatever.
Again, a simple yes/no/other setup would have been better, but the poll as-is is pretty useless because we don't know why people answered the way they did, whether they're saying that lasers are X in-game or out-of-game, or both.

[Anthar]

I voted light.

[moojii]

Actually I think the Flame tiger is what Bursters should be like. Bursters are incredibly underpowered in many ways. Especially in their damage output. A general master Psychic with Super Pyrokinesis can throw a 6D6 MDC fireball while a Burster can only do 2D6. Sure the burster has better range and ISP efficiency but they should do at least as much damage as a Super Psionic especially when they are also Master Psychics and fire is their main focus. Bursters don't even get the option of taking the Super Pyrokinesis power. It's silly.

Remember that Bursters get "Super Fuel Flame" as a class ability. This power allows a Burster to expand the size and intensity of a flame up to ten times. Using this power with the Fire Eruption abilty (which allows the Burster to create a 40ft fire inflicting 6D6 MD) would allow a burster to create a 400ft flame inflicting 6D6x10 md. Not too shabby, especially when you consider the possibility of being near a ley-line or nexus, or the possibility that the Burster is Psyscape trained (Which would allow her to double the effectiveness of one psi-power, or class ability). Using this method, I was able to create a Burster capable of inflicting 12D6x10 MD to a 800ft area, doubled at a nexus, for 28 ISP.

No, they don't need to be immune to lasers.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually I think the Flame tiger is what Bursters should be like. Bursters are incredibly underpowered in many ways. Especially in their damage output. A general master Psychic with Super Pyrokinesis can throw a 6D6 MDC fireball while a Burster can only do 2D6. Sure the burster has better range and ISP efficiency but they should do at least as much damage as a Super Psionic especially when they are also Master Psychics and fire is their main focus. Bursters don't even get the option of taking the Super Pyrokinesis power. It's silly.

Remember that Bursters get "Super Fuel Flame" as a class ability. This power allows a Burster to expand the size and intensity of a flame up to ten times. Using this power with the Fire Eruption abilty (which allows the Burster to create a 40ft fire inflicting 6D6 MD) would allow a burster to create a 400ft flame inflicting 6D6x10 md. Not too shabby, especially when you consider the possibility of being near a ley-line or nexus, or the possibility that the Burster is Psyscape trained (Which would allow her to double the effectiveness of one psi-power, or class ability). Using this method, I was able to create a Burster capable of inflicting 12D6x10 MD to a 800ft area, doubled at a nexus, for 28 ISP.

No, they don't need to be immune to lasers.

We have already discussed super fuel flame and it's limitations and uses. Yes it can do big damage but you can't auto drop it on your foes unless they are robots or you somehow catch/corner them into your flames. Unlike the general master psychic pyrokinetic who can just drop a pillar or wall of flame right on top of someone. BTW 12D6X10 seems awful high since nexus only adds 2 die damage, so at most would probably be 8d6X10. Also because the damage is per melee round of exposure you're much more likely to have someone take a fraction of that before they wised up and got the heck out of the fire.

a) As I pointed out, you can drop the pillars/walls onto areas that have people in them.
b) The damage is dealt all at once, so they'd take the entire amount of damage, whether or not this is how it would realistically happen.

[moojii]

We have already discussed super fuel flame and it's limitations and uses.

I was unaware that there had been a consensus on not being able to use create flame on the ground an enemy occupies. My bad.

BTW 12D6X10 seems awful high since nexus only adds 2 die damage, so at most would probably be 8d6X10

My character's Psyscape enhanced power was Create Flame, allowing me to create an 80ft area of flame, inflicting 12D6 damage. Also, doesn't a nexus double psionic powers? or has this been reduced in RUE?

Also because the damage is per melee round of exposure

Or per attempt to cross the flame, according to the description.

[Killer Cyborg]

a) As I pointed out, you can drop the pillars/walls onto areas that have people in them.
b) The damage is dealt all at once, so they'd take the entire amount of damage, whether or not this is how it would realistically happen.

a) really? where does it state that? Even where it says they can drop it on an area it adds right after the word "area (never directly on a living creature)"

Because area affects are not direct; they cover an area.
All it's saying is that you can't specifically ignite a person, or an area on a person.
You can't say, "I'm going to confine the flames to this one guy" or "I'm going to create a pillar of flame in this creature's mouth."
It's just a convoluted way of saying that it's an area affect.

B) The damage states that it is per melee round or whenever they try to run through it. I would judge that if they were caught by it via enlarge flames that the 'per melee round' damage would be used since they didn't actually try to run through it. It's a silly way to describe the damage IMO. Either it is per melee round or isn't. /shrug

If it's "per melee" round, then smart-alecs will try to argue that they shouldn't take any damage if they don't end the melee round in the fire.
If it's "whenever you enter the fire," then people would try to argue that they could just stand in the fire the whole time and not take damage.

I agree that it could use a better rule, but I can see why they went with that.

Anyway the Psyscape enhancement is for either the sensitive or healing categories of minor powers and one super-psionic power. You can't use it on special psychic abilities(unless your GM made an exception/house ruling) like Burster abilities

This is what I remember as well, although I didn't look it up to check.

or Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword ability.

That one's debatable because Psi-Sword IS a Super Psionic power.
(But let's not debate it; I could see it being ruled either way)

[Killer Cyborg]

Because area affects are not direct; they cover an area.
All it's saying is that you can't specifically ignite a person, or an area on a person.
You can't say, "I'm going to confine the flames to this one guy" or "I'm going to create a pillar of flame in this creature's mouth."
It's just a convoluted way of saying that it's an area affect.

Debatable.

Perhaps, but why would anybody actually debate it?
There are two basic interpretations:
One is a rule that makes no logical sense and renders the Burster into a neuter.
The other is a rule that makes logical sense and keeps the Bursters' power from being abused.

All things being equal, why assume that first interpretation?

And since they have this % skill to target it on specific areas my guess is it's to be able to use the power without hitting people, because how hard is it to say 'I light a 30 foot area 20 yards in front of me', it's not.

lol
You try lighting a fire exactly 20 yards away from you, in exactly the right 30' area that you want, using only your mind.
Let me know how easy it is.

Meanwhile, the book says:
The burster must learn to judge distances and focus his thoughts in order to create the eruption exactly where he wants it. So instead of an attack bounus ther is a Base Skill"
Which indicates to me that it's easier said than done.

If it's "per melee" round, then smart-alecs will try to argue that they shouldn't take any damage if they don't end the melee round in the fire.
If it's "whenever you enter the fire," then people would try to argue that they could just stand in the fire the whole time and not take damage.

I agree that it could use a better rule, but I can see why they went with that.

Who cares what smart-alecs say.

The writers of the game books.

My rule is you take damage divided by how many actions you have and how many you're in the flame. Example if you're taking 60 M.D.C. per melee and the guy entering has 6 melee attacks/round then he's taking 10 M.D.C. per action. Someone with only 4 attacks/round is taking 15 per action because they react slower and stay in the flame longer.

That is a reasonable house-rule.

[Killer Cyborg]

lol
You try lighting a fire exactly 20 yards away from you, in exactly the right 30' area that you want, using only your mind.
Let me know how easy it is.

If I could light fires with my mind I would.

You mean you can't?
Hm.
Perhaps you're not the best judge on how difficult it is, then.

I have no problem visualizing an area in my mind.

If you say so.
But if you can't set them on fire with your brain, it's not the same thing.

And since other psychics and mages seem to have no problems either...

For example...?

Who cares what smart-alecs say.

The writers of the game books.

The writers are not running my game so they should not care what a smart alec says either.

They're running an industry where the rules need to be spelled out fairly clearly, or complications arise. People misinterpret the rules, then ***** about how "stupid" the rules are, or about how "easy" the game is.
When you're in the business of selling a product, customer satisfaction is always a concern.

And if they did care then they would not have so many loopholes and contradictory material to fuel smart alec remarks.

Sure, they would, if they weren't perfect at their jobs.
Just because they try does not mean they succeed.