Muskets

[krate]

The Rifter #46 has an article on Wormwood that includes muskets and flintlocks. It is for the Wormwood setting, but just remove all the flavor text about them being magical and you got yourself some muskets--complete with misfire table!
Hope that helps.

[J. Lionheart]

Transdimensional TMNT is your resource for all blackpowder weapons, from the Arquebus to the Henry repeater.

[kmspade]

Transdimensional TMNT is your resource for all blackpowder weapons, from the Arquebus to the Henry repeater.

Yes. Transdimensional TMNT is the book you want. You might find a used copy somewhere, or might be able to purchase a pdf copy at drivethru rpg.

[Library Ogre]

Transdimensional TMNT is your resource for all blackpowder weapons, from the Arquebus to the Henry repeater.

Yes. Transdimensional TMNT is the book you want. You might find a used copy somewhere, or might be able to purchase a pdf copy at drivethru rpg.

Transdimensional TMNT almost certainly will not, as it relies on the now-abandoned Turtles license. Palladium could probably reprint those rules (since there's nothing inherently Turtle-related about them), but the book itself cannot be reprinted or distributed via the internet, without permission from Eastman and Laird.

[Cybermancer]

Transdimensional TMNT is your resource for all blackpowder weapons, from the Arquebus to the Henry repeater.

Yes. Transdimensional TMNT is the book you want. You might find a used copy somewhere, or might be able to purchase a pdf copy at drivethru rpg.

Transdimensional TMNT almost certainly will not, as it relies on the now-abandoned Turtles license. Palladium could probably reprint those rules (since there's nothing inherently Turtle-related about them), but the book itself cannot be reprinted or distributed via the internet, without permission from Eastman and Laird.

And that's a huge shame as it's one of my favorite and most often referred to books. Still, it opens the possibility of a new book to fill the role it had. Perhaps a Transdimensional Mutants or Transdimensional Mutants and Heroes and so on.

[Library Ogre]

Transdimensional TMNT is your resource for all blackpowder weapons, from the Arquebus to the Henry repeater.

Yes. Transdimensional TMNT is the book you want. You might find a used copy somewhere, or might be able to purchase a pdf copy at drivethru rpg.

Transdimensional TMNT almost certainly will not, as it relies on the now-abandoned Turtles license. Palladium could probably reprint those rules (since there's nothing inherently Turtle-related about them), but the book itself cannot be reprinted or distributed via the internet, without permission from Eastman and Laird.

And that's a huge shame as it's one of my favorite and most often referred to books. Still, it opens the possibility of a new book to fill the role it had. Perhaps a Transdimensional Mutants or Transdimensional Mutants and Heroes and so on.

If I had the motivation, I'd think about a generic history sourcebook... playing in several different eras, in the Palladium system.

[gaby]

I do not use them.

I keep to normal Fantasy weapons.

[azazel1024]

Here's my thing, despite the evidence of upstart canaries (centuries tech wise before the first canning occured) and gunpowder in the form of fireworks, it look centuries from the introduction of fireworks till the first usage of gunpowder weapons (well, guns at any rate).

If I did allow it it would only be in the form of a matchlock or possibly wheel lock, no flintlocks or percusion cap weapons.

I'd also have it so that most people thought it was magical in some way (even though it didn't radiate magic). I'd also probably have some cracker jack alchemist whiping it up for the character. I'd make shot and powder very rare.

The downside is, what is the point. A musket ball is somewhat better then a longbow arrow, but not a whole lot. It wasn't till the invention of rifling that the ball had enough energy to significantly outpace an arrow in damage. The rate of fire was also way subpar compared to a good longbowman. A good longbowman could fire 10-15 arrows in a minute, a good musketeer could fire twice in a minute. Even someone with a flintlock could maybe fire 3-4 times in a minute for someone well trained.

The advantage of a musket/matchlock was that any old sort could learn to operate and fire one quickly. A good longbowman would take a decade or more to train, where as a musketeer could be trained in a few weeks. That is why gunpowder took over from arrows. Afterall another arrow advantage is that a good longbowman would drop a volley on the enemy up to around 300 yards, a good musketeer could maybe hit the broadside of a barn at 100yds on a good day and with luck.

I just don't see the point unless the weapon was brought in from another dimension and there for is beyond what the tech level could possibly produce. As individual weapons matchlocks, etc just weren't really seen. You didn't see 15th or 16th century guards with matchlocks, you'd see them with partisans, swords, halberds, etc. Matchlocks were pretty much only used on the field of battle in large scale fights.

PS a rifled matchlock did exist since fairly early on, however the rate of fire was even lower then a smooth bore since you have to jam the bullet down the rifling of the barrel. The conical bullet wasn't invented till centuries later and it was no 'accident' that lead to its creation, it was rather astute understanding of how gunpowder worked.
-Matt

[Library Ogre]

Of course, there's always the Guardians of the Flame route.

In that series (by Joel Rosenberg, which I highly suggest; it starts with "The Sleeping Dragon"), a group of modern college students get sent into their fantasy game. Among them is an engineer, who has enough knowledge of blackpowder to start making primitive firearms... which get better as they develop infrastructure. They have the advantage, of course, of knowing about things like rifling and percussion caps when they get started, even if they can't immediately manufacture them (they wound up rifling their weapons and started with a more conical shell, turning rifles into smoothbore shotguns when the rifling wore away).

At first blush, a few flintlocks don't seem like much... but remember, even with magic being relatively common, the explosion of several guns going off is going to be loud and frightening, especially if it's accompanied by the explosion of several of your buddies and/or horses. Flintlocks and wheellocks, at least, will make great ambush weapons. Load, wait, fire, and then attack through your gunsmoke while people are trying to get control of their horses.

I would give firearms, until they get common, a degree of horror factor when fired, especially from ambush.

[azazel1024]

I can see that. A rifled blackpowder weapon would even be pretty good for what you described, but any kind of larger fight or in a ranged battle they'd be less then worthless in comparison to a bow and arrow.

Bullet proof was coined in the 15th century as steel breast plates were proofed by being shot by a pistol at close range to prove that they would stop a bullet, hence bullet proof.

Cuirasses fell out of favor in the later 17th century because of the cost and encumberance factor. A good heavy steel cuirass could still stop even a musket ball at fairly close ranges. Though a rifle bullet would be more likely to penetrate except at long ranges.

Now PF plate might not be quite as heavy, but it would certainly turn a bullet at medium and longer ranges and at closer ranges where it is likely to penetrate a strong bowman with a bodkin arrow is about as likely to penetrate plate armor as well. For that matter a strong steel bowed arbalest is going to have much more penetrating power then a firearm, other then as mentioned possibly a rifled one.

Now your scenario where one or more characters came from a different dimension would make it highly plausable that they were able to work out black powder weapons, even fairly advanced ones, but if the PC/NPCs are native to PF I'd think it would be fairly implausable.
-Matt

[Library Ogre]

I tend to agree, azazel; it's not likely that the natives of Palladium will stumble across magic on their own; most of those who would follow scientific/technical careers on Earth are instead funneled into magic (a proven science). Chemistry (an unproven science) is going to be regarded much like alchemy is today... "You actually study that stuff?"

[Specter]

I wrote a story where a character had a gun in a typical fantasy setting and every body thoughy he had a blunt knife to a sword fight. They called it the thunder sword.... but yeah... dwarven masterwork rifle. Worth crazy ammounts of gold and you have to travel to the one of 2-3 people on the planet that can make one. Guns might not be common place, but it's likely someone... could create one. I mean there are clockwork golems in PF.

[Library Ogre]

AfAIK 100 yards at most .

And a good Maille not to speak of Standard plate would reduce an arrow to an armour knock on device

Depends. A Volley... as in a bunch of archers shooting en masse, in an arc'd trajectory, to hit another mass of people, without individual archers taking aim at more than "the general area with all the people"... they could hit at 300 yards.

[azazel1024]

it look centuries from the introduction of fireworks till the first usage of gunpowder weapons (well, guns at any rate).

-Matt

The handgonne was used in the HYW

iwouldn´t go farther than Arquebus.

Afterall another arrow advantage is that a good longbowman would drop a volley on the enemy up to around 300 yards,

AfAIK 100 yards at most .

And a good Maille not to speak of Standard plate would reduce an arrow to an armour knock on device

Yeah I was speaking of a group/company of archers firing volleys on to targets. Records show that Welsh and English longbow men fired effective volleys at ranges of around 300 yards on the field of battle.

As for mail...well sure at those ranges mail will stop an arrow, at closer ranges (basically at the point where the trajectory is pretty flat, under around 70yds) a bodkin arrow and a powerful long bow would punch through any conceivable mail. Plate armor effectively was arrow proof except for extrodinarily powerful archers at very close ranges.

Also not many men in full plate armor were afoot, they tended to be mounted heavy cavalry, and horses, even with plate and mail barding were still rather vulnerable. Part of how the English defeated the French at Againcourt. They basically shot the French heavy cavalry from their horses and then mired in mud and disorganized basically cut their throats.
-Matt

[azazel1024]

Certainly helped, in reply to the stuck in the mud.

In terms of Crecy and many other battlefields, shields certainly helped among other things. Ballistic shooting isn't going to penetrate chain mail, the arrows just don't have the KE. At non-ballistic ranges they will from a long bow using a bodkin arrows. If memory serves at Crecy most of those attacks faltered long before they got in to melee range, so the distances were longer for the arrow strikes. In medieval battlefields there was not a lot of time that archers would be directly firing on the enemy as they would have a line of infantry or cavalry directly in front of them by the time the enemy would be approaching within range to do that.

Direct fire certainly occured any number of times, but it wasn't terribly common, or at least in terms of the % of arrows fired it was extremely low.
-Matt

[DarkwingDuk]

Spike TV did a show this summer called Deadliest Warrior. It was kind of hokey but the premise was a mythbusters style show where they pulled two warriors out of history and pit them against each other. In episode four they pitted a pirate against a knight. They ran a lot of fire arm tests against a knights armor. The armor held up well against the flintlock fire, however there was still an issue of the transfer of kinetic energy from the bullet to the armor to the human body. The hits could cause massive internal bruising. If nothing else the hit has a good chance of knocking the knight off his feet, and with that much metal getting up is extremely difficult. In our group, to reflect the firearm hit, 3/4 of the damage goes to the armor, but 1/4 of it travels through in the form of concussive force and damages the SDC. This may seem overpowered but it offsets a 3 action reload time (2 if you want to rush it but an increased chance of misfire). We also added a chance for a knockdown by a balance check. In our campaign the dwarves began crafting firearms to make up for thier self imposed ban on magic.

[Library Ogre]

One thing I did for "bruising" damage, Darkwing, was rather than reduce the amount of damage done to the armor, I would instead impose a number of points of damage equal to the number of dice rolled.

[Rockwolf66]

Spike TV did a show this summer called Deadliest Warrior. It was kind of hokey but the premise was a mythbusters style show where they pulled two warriors out of history and pit them against each other. In episode four they pitted a pirate against a knight. They ran a lot of fire arm tests against a knights armor. The armor held up well against the flintlock fire, however there was still an issue of the transfer of kinetic energy from the bullet to the armor to the human body. The hits could cause massive internal bruising. If nothing else the hit has a good chance of knocking the knight off his feet, and with that much metal getting up is extremely difficult. In our group, to reflect the firearm hit, 3/4 of the damage goes to the armor, but 1/4 of it travels through in the form of concussive force and damages the SDC. This may seem overpowered but it offsets a 3 action reload time (2 if you want to rush it but an increased chance of misfire). We also added a chance for a knockdown by a balance check. In our campaign the dwarves began crafting firearms to make up for thier self imposed ban on magic.

Don't forget that a Knight's armor was layered with the bottom being padded to cushion the impact of weapons. As far as knockback goes...Should I load 3" magnum slugs into my 12 gauge shotgun and shoot a 5' tall 100 pound volunteer wearing a bullet resistant vest rated to stop said fast moveing ounce of lead. Said volunteer will not be knocked off their feet due to the impact alone, simply put physics does not alow for such things. the force of even a very large shell striking a person is rughly equal to the weapon's recoil. Thus if someone does get knocked off their feet it's more of a matter of bad stance and psychology.

As for the knight being helpless when knocked down. Unless the knight was mired in mud a properly trained knight should have no problem getting back up. Heck, some knights could perform handstands and other such gymnastic feats while in full armor.

[azazel1024]

And I might add did (the gymnastic feats).

Plate and mail is heavy, but 50-70lbs distributed over your entire body isn't bad. I can run easiliy enough with a 50lb pack on my back (slower, but I can still run at faster then jogging pace for a good half mile before becoming winded and I can sprint for a distance as well, again slowed, but still faster then what most can 'run'). Well designed plate and mail doesn't really interfere with movements to much, though it weighs you down.

The biggest issue was heat. Even on a mild day plate and chain plus all that leather and cloth padding underneath would cook a knight in midday sun faster even a short battle. A lot of knights were worn out from heat fatigue after just a short battle. Till they were worn out they could move plenty fast other then maybe a straight foot race against someone unencumbered by armor.

The impact may be likely to double over the person being hit by the shock/trauma of the transfered energy, but as Rockwolf66 said, it isn't going to knock you back unless in a percarious position. Someone wearing a steel cuirass with underpadding is in a much better situation then someone wearing a basic, no insert, bullet proof vest. Those transfer the kinetic energy in a relatively small area and can cause a large amount of internal damage even with no penetration (on par with getting hit with a hammer if it is a heavy caliber bullet). A steel cuirass with padding underneath is likely to be gentler then even a bullet proof vest with steel or ceramic (BC) inserts. It is going to spread the kinetic energy transfer over a large part of the cheast and your going to have padding to help cushion it. I didn't see the Deadliest Warrior episode, but it sounds like the fudged or botched some of their 'testing'.

Unless something new has come up a regular flintlock is going to take about a full melee round to reload for a skilled loader going fast and be ready for firing the start of the next melee round (IE fire at the begining, all further actions are related to reloading, ready to fire the next melee round). That would be as fast as a very well trained, dexterous and quick person can load a flintlock (more typical was about 3 shots per minute for a well drilled person, 1-2 for little or no training).

Realistic damage scenarious for bullets VS medieval armor for me would be this.
Plate or plate and chain carries the same AR against bullets (+3 to penetrate at point blank, under 50ft, distances). Full damage to the armor and 1/5th of the damage is carried through to the person underneath. No knock down/knock back.

Scale, lamellar or splint armor (example scale or brigandine vest) bullets have a +2 to penetrate (+5 at point blank distances), full damage to armor and 1/4th of the damage is carried through to the person underneath. There is a percent change equal to the damage dealt to the armor of stunning the person struck 'paralyzing' them for a single melee action and causing a -2 to strike, parry and dodge for the rest of the round.

Chainmail have a +5 to penetrate (+8 at point blank range), full damage to armor and 1/3rd carries through. There is a percent change equal to twice the damage dealt of stunning the person (same rules as above).

Any other armor doesn't reduce the damage at all and the bullet penetrates doing full damage to the person underneath the armor.
-Matt