Telekenesis.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

Ok one of my players and myself have rehashed the argument about TK. Can it be used to fling a foe into another foe.

We are playing the PFRPG and the book states that it can be used to fling/move an object. Not a being. For now I've allowed it, but I'm seriously considering not allowing it in the future. Just trying to get an idea of what issues/problems have come of this..

I'm fine with them tossing a sword or other item at a foe.. That seems to be the spirit in which the power was designed.. But to use TK to take a guy off a horse or to fling one foe into another seems a bit much.

My main issue is with the wording. It says in the description that it can fling an "object". I don't consider characters, monsters, animals, etc. to be objects as they are beings. (Both living and undead.)

Is there any official ruling? Or is it just a gray area of the game?

[Prysus]

I posted this reply in the PF Forums, but figured to post it here as well (simple copy and paste) where it may see other attention (if anyone is curious) ...

Greetings and Salutations. Well, this question has come up often, so I'll go through the details of what I can find in the books (I don't agree with all of it, and in my opinion when you have all the details it ends up becoming way too powerful for my tastes).


1) Can it be used on people?

1a) For a long time I took the same official stance that a person is not an "object." In many of the powers Palladium takes the effort to separate the two. Examples: Object Read (and there is actually an entire different thread where people agree it wouldn't work on a body), Teleport Object (I honestly don't believe it was meant to be used on anything living nor would I allow it to be), Levitation (quoted as reading "raise an object (or a person)" showing another separation), etc. Telekinesis (in Palladium Fantasy) reads "object" so I ruled it wouldn't work. My explanation was that people and objects have different auras and telekinesis didn't work on the living aura (they are just too different), and this aura extended far enough to include clothes and things fairly close to the body, though items extended further out (like a person's weapon) weren't included.

1b) In continued arguments I came across a passage in Rifts GM Guide, and further elaborated on in Rifts: Ultimate Edition.

Telekinesis does not allow psychics to levitate themselves or fly, due to the weight limitation (see Super Telekinesis).

M.D. is only possible with Super Telekinesis ... ... ... a hard material like wood, stone or metal (not people).

The first indicates (in my opinion) that Telekinesis can be used on people with the consideration of weight (it's an odd statement though since the Physical Telekinesis power doesn't have any limitations other than the I.S.P. cost). The second again shows the consideration of people (and that they are not considered a "hard material"). Due to these two quotes, I'd have to rule that it is by the rules allowed on people.

1c) Mark Hall also wrote on article in Rifter 44 that discusses providing a saving throw and the explanation behind it (which is also is tied to the aura) along with a few other limitations.


2) Though only question 1 was asked, the other points are factors to consider of why I view it as so overpowered. Can my two buddies attack the psychic while he's using telekinesis on me?

2a) As near as I can tell by the book (and the way I've always ruled it) that really depends on the type of telekinesis and the level of the psychic. Since we're moving people, most likely we're using Super Telekinesis, so let's stay focused on that one for now. The power lets you "manipulate as many as one object per level of the psychic, as long as the combined weight does not exceed the total weight capacity." Now this means the power can be used on two 200 pound people as long as the psychic spends 40 I.S.P. and the psychic is level 2. Additionally, as near as I can tell (by the book) those two people can be manipulated at the same time! Now, I'll grant this starts getting I.S.P. heavy, but the option is there. Now let's also consider they're taking 2D4x10 damage each action. Even doing minimum damage each time few can survive the first melee round (not counting armor). Additionally, the victim is completely helpless. There is no saving throw, no dodge (it's not just invisible, but it's manipulation of the object, not some hand coming out of nowhere, so unless you're reading the person's mind at the time there isn't much way to know it's coming), no by the book way to break the hold, and very little that can be done against it. In PF men of arms are dead (at least in Rifts and other settings they can try to do things like shoot a gun over their shoulder, but not a real option in PF). Psychics and mages may have a chance, but even that is limited (depending on limitations such as being able to see your target if you're already enthralled and range). After a victim is dead, continue using it until the 2 minutes per level are up. So a level 2 psychic can do this for 4 minutes. In the above example, even if it takes one full minute to kill someone, this could have just killed 8 people who were virtually powerless the entire time for 40 I.S.P. Granted, there would be more strategy with 8 people, but the kill time would probably also be shorter, and that's only if the psychic doesn't have friends either, not to mention a TK Force Field (30 more I.S.P. admittedly) would keep most off of the psychic during this. While that would drain I.S.P. even faster, if you just saw this psychic pound 8 of your friends to bits in a few minutes and you couldn't touch him, are you going to be the first on to volunteer to get your head bashed in next? At this point most should be thinking of fighting this psychic is worth it. Even if a strike roll is required, it's +3 to strike meaning as long as the character doesn't roll a Natural 1 it hits automatically (95% success rate for an attack without a defense).

2b) Some will argue that it Telekinesis only works on one object, and then if used on a separate object it needs to be recast (cast may not be the right word for a psychic ability, but still gets the point across). However, by the book, I can find no evidence of that fact. People will allude to the "one object per level" mentioned above, but I'll redirect you to the physical version now. They give an example of it being used on 4 objects in 4 actions, and not once does it mention that it needs to be spent on each object separately. The main thing is the psychic can only focus on one object a time (each action can only manipulate one object). Telekinesis Super indicates it's the same as physical version except enhanced. I can find no by the book reasoning that the Super version was suddenly reduced in power (though a house rule for balance is understandable, I'm merely stating it by the book).

2c) Mark Hall's article does address it how often it needs to be reused and goes into a more defined structure of the power.


3) Is it so much worse than Mind Bolt or Pyrokinesis?

3a) Absolutely! It has equal range to Mind Bolt and costs less I.S.P. for better damage. For 60 I.S.P with Mind Bolt you can do 1D6x10 damage (powerful, but very draining) and is only one shot. Telekinesis Super for the same I.S.P. would do 6D4x10 damage each action for two minutes or more! Similar restrictions apply for Pryokinesis as well as decreased range. In a few levels Super Telekinesis has a range greater than most spells and other psychic abilities as well as better damage.


All right, that's just a quick sum up of the power as I can find it. Mind you, I mentioned it by the book as best I can. Personally, I don't allow it to be used on people but follow the book on the rest of it. That's a rule I made in my first month as a G.M. and I still think it was the right one. However, if it is allowed on people then some different restrictions to the power really should be applied because by the book it is frighteningly overpowered (in my opinion, but it has range, damage, duration, and flexibility). Mark Hall's article may be the best way to go (provides a saving throw with a few other limitations). Hopefully some of that helped to at least let you make a more informed decision. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[dark brandon]

Ok one of my players and myself have rehashed the argument about TK. Can it be used to fling a foe into another foe.

We are playing the PFRPG and the book states that it can be used to fling/move an object. Not a being. For now I've allowed it, but I'm seriously considering not allowing it in the future. Just trying to get an idea of what issues/problems have come of this..

I'm fine with them tossing a sword or other item at a foe.. That seems to be the spirit in which the power was designed.. But to use TK to take a guy off a horse or to fling one foe into another seems a bit much.

My main issue is with the wording. It says in the description that it can fling an "object". I don't consider characters, monsters, animals, etc. to be objects as they are beings. (Both living and undead.)

Is there any official ruling? Or is it just a gray area of the game?

Here's something to concider...how much more devastating is it when compared to say biomanipulate "paralyze"?

For damage...both TK and Super TK have around the average strength of 1 PS...so, if you want to "throw" someone...you're going to need more ISP to expend to damage them. Just enough to lift them doesn't mean you're gonna be able to throw them. You can lift and drop them, at which point I just use falling damage (IIRC it's something like 1D6 per 10 ft.)

[dark brandon]

For damage...both TK and Super TK have around the average strength of 1 PS...so, if you want to "throw" someone...you're going to need more ISP to expend to damage them. Just enough to lift them doesn't mean you're gonna be able to throw them. You can lift and drop them, at which point I just use falling damage (IIRC it's something like 1D6 per 10 ft.)

I disagree.

Overcoming the force of gravity (9.8 N downwards) required to lift someone straight up is greater than that required to break inertia and accelerate someone forward. After that, kinematics takes over.

Um...ok. I didn't understand anything you said...nor do I really care. Too much info for too little gain. No offense, I just don't like to over think anything, especially in a game.

[Levi]

Unfortunately the rules for using TK on a person are pretty vague. I have always allowed it though. Based mostly off the fact the levitation which is a basic form of TK can be used on people and doesn’t allow a saving throw.

By extrapolating on that I feel that TK which is more powerful should also be allowed to be used on people. Recently I have started allowing the target a saving throw. TK is pretty darn powerful though.