N&S a bit dated?

[Library Ogre]

It is a bit dated, but largely in the skills it contains and the technology it regards as "current". I think updating it would be a good idea, but a far larger project.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If it was updated to be a companion book for HU, would be ok.

[Misfit KotLD]

If it was updated to be a companion book for HU, would be ok.

Egads, no.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If it was updated to be a companion book for HU, would be ok.

Egads, no.

why not? (didn't say sourcebook)
...hummm
let me define what I mean by companion book

being able to use chars from (n&S) in HU2 w/o any convertions or mods

Mostly what I mean is to keep the same education system (rolling for levels of education gotten to and skill programs) and staying away from OCC's, PCC's, and RCC's.

While the CC formats does hasten char creation, they also limit the chars also.

[drewkitty ~..~]

What I mean is to keep the educational system but update the skills and such, update the MA forms by doubling the starting APM, keeping the MA powers virtually the same while adding in specifics like ranges for chi attacks, MD conversions for chi attacks, and a clear & expanded version of conversions of HU classes (to say which classes can use the N&S/MC MA forms and their effects on the class.), and bringing the equipment up to HU2 standards.

It might be ok to have each char type have a mandatory skill program, like what is the case with the HU mystic study.

[MikelAmroni]

You could call it Ultimate Ninjas and Superspies...ok UNSS is a bit naval, but still, it would be better than yet ANOTHER Revised version

Some of the concepts put forth here (updating the skills and programs, bringing NSS into modern terminology and expectations, putting in ranges for chi attacks, perhaps retooling a few of the styles (not much, mainly incorporating what had been expanded on, say Ninjitsu in Rifts Japan - NOT the ninja class, just so we're clear, just the hand to hand style), etc.

An update of the world situation, how to run games set in the modern world, a page or two on running in previous eras (one page for the Cold War (and some breakdowns on changing it from the difference in the 60s, 70s, and 80s), one page for WWII and immediately post and previous WW2, one Page for Civil War to WW1, etc, and a page or two for integrating into HU2, BTS2, Rifts, Nightbane, Robotech, etc.

All of this could be done without sacrificing any of the good stuff that we love about N&SS. Yes, I as a GM can update all that stuff. But if Kevin is afraid of historic games not sellign well, then why WOULDN'T he want to revise it - especially if you time it with the release of something like a spy movie (or the next GI-Joe movie). Not tie it too it, but rather conviently reintroduce the gaming world to it while they are talking about some new spy movie, or war movie, etc.

[drewkitty ~..~]

N&S2 would be fine for me. It worked for HU2.

would really HATE!!!!! UN&S name.

With all the era items mikeA mentioned, there could be several different time period books. And maybe a Steampunk book also.
If MA meant to bring in the flavor text from RJ for Ninjutsu, off hand & w/o reviewing them, I have no knee-jerk reaction against it.

[Mantisking]

I'll keep this short. Is it dated, yes? Anything that makes reference to real world technologies and events is going to become dated over time. Should it be updated? Sure, the text needs cleaning up and a few things colud be changed here or there. Should it be changed to reflect the power creep that has effected the rest of the Palladium line? No. Despite using the same system, each game is seperate and should remain so. Should it be folded into the HU line? Hell no, and that's all I'm gonna say about that.

Oh and Chi Ranges? 40 feet.

[dworldjumper]

Actually N&S may be dated in time frame but not in the skill program system. In fact skill programs should be expanded to include more areas other jobs and areas of knowledge. The skill program system is perfect for N&S. As some whom has come from a military background knows,intensive training come many skills. This is what is necessary in N&S. Highly trained people in specific areas working together on mission specific tasks. These are things that can only be done with people with the right skill sets (i.e. N&S characters)

[Mantisking]

Actually N&S may be dated in time frame but not in the skill program system. In fact skill programs should be expanded to include more areas other jobs and areas of knowledge. The skill program system is perfect for N&S. As some whom has come from a military background knows,intensive training come many skills. This is what is necessary in N&S. Highly trained people in specific areas working together on mission specific tasks. These are things that can only be done with people with the right skill sets (i.e. N&S characters)

It's one of the main reasons I like N&S, the flexibility of the character creation system.

This is why I Mantisking is awesome.

Thanks.

Should it be folded into the HU line? Hell no, and that's all I'm gonna say about that.

This is my biggest fear with an Update I hate HU2, But I love "Ninjas and Superspies" because it offers more then HU2 ever could. Playing a game set back in World War 2 with HU2 is just boring powers here Super that over there it's not fun. Yet the same Setting with "Ninjas and SuperSpies" you have real soldiers fighting to take a warehouse or bunker, or enemy encampment. You could have a Martial Artist in China fighting the Japaneses occupation helping in Guerrilla warfare and it feels more like world war two and not some lame a** comicbook version. (don't get me wrong I love comics and Cap and Conan are my all time fav's)

N&S, when I was gaming regularly, was the framework for my gaming group. We built many different settings and genres on those rules.

[Mantisking]

Unfortunately it's this kind of thinking that prevents N&S from going from a good game to a great supplement. The only real thing separating N&S from HU2 is Chi, and that can be plugged into HU2 pretty easily. Likewise, with a "Campaign Setting" option portions of HU2 can be stripped away to create the gritty campaigns you're looking for, where air hawks bomb Nazi factories while Allies characters search forgotten tombs and hospitals for captured comrades. Good games, great concepts and easy to do.

And again, I disagree. N&S and HU2 use the same system, but they are geared differently. Look at the amount of S.D.C. that can be generated during character creation in HU2, that alone changes the way things would have to operate if N&S was to be a supplement for it.

[Mercalocalypse]

I love the game but it does need to be updated. The "Tech" in the game is horribly outdated, as well the OCCs could use some tinkering. All the Rifter additions of Martial arts and skills could go in also.

[green.nova343]

Also Hero's is already set up for martial artist on it's own. Having it folded into HU wouldn't make it a great game it would just be another supplement. The point of playing HU is powers and I've meet very few players that argue that point, powers versus Chi you find out that super powers not only out way Chi in number, they also out way Chi in function. Powers are gained any number of ways and have All kinds a bonuses (Alter physical Structure is my point for this it has a lot that comes with it.) that follow with them. Chi is limited in numbers as well as it's bonuses. Also some Hand to hands in N&SS do not offer you much in the way of Chi abilities, a Grunt in N&SS is no way going to last or even be worth playing in a game were everyone has powers. I mean you can't tell me that you'd wanna play HU with out powers you loses the biggest appeal of the game.

Well, it all depends on how you look at it. Wired agents & cyber agents are nothing more than bionic characters, but their cybernetics & bionics focus on espionage more than on straight combat. Perfect for infiltrating super-villain bases & stealing info from their networks. Plus, they tend to have more military/espionage training than the average bionics characters. Gizmoteers are essentially low-end Hardware characters, but instead of building a lot of big gadgets they're building the small Bond-style gadgets. Heck, I'd love to have a watch laser, C-4 toothpaste tube, & other things that I can take through customs without anyone knowing better. Regular agents & military personnel are basically the same as the Special Training - Secret Operative characters, which must have some use or they wouldn't show up there. And finally, you have the Martial Artists. With their enhanced combat techniques and martial arts abilities, they're a cross between the Physical Training & Special Training - Ancient Master characters.

The biggest thing, though, is that those special abilities are hard to defend against if you don't have corresponding abilities. Take Chi combat, for example. Just 2 or 3 successful Chi attacks will completely drain a superhero's Chi... at which point, as per the rules, they no longer will heal. Healing Factor might allow for some benefit there, but even that's a GM call. Otherwise, your walking brick with half the S.D.C. of an M1 tank is going to find that S.D.C. dropping lower & lower, until he can find a Chi healer -- not a mage or psychic, a trained Chi healer. Same with Atemi abilities: unless there's just no way for them to work on the character (i.e. robot/artificial life form), you don't need to inflict actual S.D.C. damage to hurt/immobilize them. Or how about Arts of Invisibility? Sure, they won't work against security cameras (& therefore probably not robotic eyes/sensors)...but See the Invisible (magic & psionic) IIRC won't reveal the "invisible" character. And we haven't even touched on those special katas, or the body hardening exercises (which can provide some decent mid-range S.D.C. bonuses).

[Desert Rat]

Sounds like most people would agree that N&SS needs a face lift. Instead of waiting for Palladium to make the business decision and commit resources towards the project, fans may be willing to step up and do the majority of the rewrite. All it would need is Palladium to agree to allow it, everyone involved signs a NDA, the fans do the work and a staff editor ultimately reviews the final product. Seems simple to me, after all much of it is just updating the out of date information/technologies and giving it more depth by including all the MA styles, powers, skills and equipment from the Rifters and other Palladium product lines out there. Additionally, add in some of the supplemental products I have seen on these boards (Mantisking's vehicle mods) as well as elsewhere on the net (of course with the authors express permission) along with a more robust adventure scenario's similar to John Philpott's Guns for Hire from Rifter 25. The cost savings to update a product line would be substantial. I, for one, would be willing to work on it.

In today's world with the way current events are, N&SS has a place in the gaming community. Especially if there where further supplemental's committed specifically to the product line.

[Mantisking]

Sounds like most people would agree that N&SS needs a face lift. Instead of waiting for Palladium to make the business decision and commit resources towards the project, fans may be willing to step up and do the majority of the rewrite. All it would need is Palladium to agree to allow it, everyone involved signs a NDA, the fans do the work and a staff editor ultimately reviews the final product. Seems simple to me, after all much of it is just updating the out of date information/technologies and giving it more depth by including all the MA styles, powers, skills and equipment from the Rifters and other Palladium product lines out there. Additionally, add in some of the supplemental products I have seen on these boards (Mantisking's vehicle mods) as well as elsewhere on the net (of course with the authors express permission) along with a more robust adventure scenario's similar to John Philpott's Guns for Hire from Rifter 25. The cost savings to update a product line would be substantial.

The thing is, I'm sure people disagree on what should and shouldn't be included. I know that I'd be willing to rip out pages if any of the N&S stuff from Rifter #7 made it in.

I, for one, would be willing to work on it.

As would I.

In today's world with the way current events are, N&SS has a place in the gaming community. Especially if there where further supplemental's committed specifically to the product line.

True.

[Desert Rat]

The thing is, I'm sure people disagree on what should and shouldn't be included. I know that I'd be willing to rip out pages if any of the N&S stuff from Rifter #7 made it in.

Agreed, although I don't think it is that large of an issue. All final decisions rest with the paid staff assigned to oversee the products development. It's not a problem unless every minuet detail becomes an issue and you can mitigate that by assigning a "trusted individual(s)" to make low level decisions. Ultimately, you would need a Scope of Work which would establish some left and right boundaries, such as 1) the game mechanics must stay within the defined Palladium system, 2) given the page size and font requirement, the final product cannot exceed 300 pages, 3) all facets of the game must be expanded upon to maintain balance (MA styles, skills, covers, agencies, vehicles & equipment, etc...).

If I was king for a day, this is what I would do:

Rules: It is not so much that I would change the rules, as I would expand and clarify them. N&SS is great at giving the very basics but is lacking in fleshing out some of the rules. I am talking about rules which would normally make there way into a GM's Guide. If N&SS is the only game you play from the Palladium line, you are left with creating a lot of House Rules.

One rule I would clarify is wound vs. bruise damage. I thought it was understood, maybe it is something I have just always played with, but as was reading through several of the threads I noticed a common theme, bullet, edged weapons and explosive damage was being applied to SDC's first and then to HP. I have been playing the game since it first came out and this made me go back and read the rules, only to find out that it was not clear. Maybe it was in the first edition which I no longer have. Maybe I just inferred it by reading between the lines. All that aside, if one gets into a fight, (s)he is not going to be able to take the same number of 9mm bullet wounds as one could take roundhouse kicks.

MA Styles: All original MA styles remain, after all that is the foundation of the game. Rifter 7 is a requirement for inclusion. That's 11 more MA styles and it takes the game out of the dominated Asian influence giving it more of an international flavor. Excess styles go into a Martial Arts Supplemental.

MA Powers: Boost from 6 to somewhere between 12 to 20 per category. Excess powers go into a Martial Arts Supplemental.

OCC's: Personally, I like the way they are. Maybe add a few more....maybe. Like most, I don't care for how weak the Dedicated Martial Artist is, but that appears to be a fight that may not be won should there be a rewrite. Although, I think the Exclusive forms should be opened up to the Worldly Martial Artist. Ninjitsu can remain a DMA only considering it is 2 forms in one martial art, but all the others should not be restricted. After all, Hwarang-do is comparable to Ninjitsu?

Skills & Skill Programs: Boost the skill programs and skills to give players/characters more options and solve discrepancies between systems. This would start with compiling all the skills from all the product lines, rewriting to correct discrepancies and then deciding what to include in the new N&SS. What it also allows for is a Skills List Supplemental for all Palladium products.

Covers: Boost covers from the 30 to around 100+.

Bionics: Adjust for technological advancements and include bionic/cybernetics from the Rifts Bionic Sourcebook.

Equipment: As mentioned above increase the vehicle mods. Modern weapons get an overhaul. I am a gun freak and it is somewhat evident that whoever put the weapons list together was not. No offense, it just is what it is. Half the pistols do not belong on the list, because no self-respecting operative who lives by The Way Of The Gun would carry one of them. Why is the HKMP5 not included in the list when it is the #1 sub-machinegun in the world? The WA 2000 sniper rifle, no one outside of the Germans used that rifle, and they barely used it themselves. Sure it looks cool, but it was a heavy piece of garbage. I know there is a modern weapons compendium available, but this is a modern scenario game and as such players should have a certain set of basics at their fingertips upon initial purchase which should be bigger then it is. Therefore, increase the weapons, ancient included, and tradecraft specific equipment.

Money:Adjust all money listed in the game to reflect inflation increases over the last 20 years. Right now my characters start with double the starting amount listed in the OCC and salaries are 1.5 times what is listed.


In the end, if Palladium didn't want to commit follow-on resources for publishing, they could release it as an E-book. They get a game updated by the fans, for the fans and maybe a supplemental or two at minimal cost. For "consideration" (that's lawyer speak) of the NDA, all those involved in the project get a free copy of the updated game and if Palladium is feeling generous maybe .5% to 1% royalties for the group.

[Mantisking]

If I was king for a day, this is what I would do:

Rules: It is not so much that I would change the rules, as I would expand and clarify them. N&SS is great at giving the very basics but is lacking in fleshing out some of the rules. I am talking about rules which would normally make there way into a GM's Guide. If N&SS is the only game you play from the Palladium line, you are left with creating a lot of House Rules.

One rule I would clarify is wound vs. bruise damage. I thought it was understood, maybe it is something I have just always played with, but as was reading through several of the threads I noticed a common theme, bullet, edged weapons and explosive damage was being applied to SDC's first and then to HP. I have been playing the game since it first came out and this made me go back and read the rules, only to find out that it was not clear. Maybe it was in the first edition which I no longer have. Maybe I just inferred it by reading between the lines. All that aside, if one gets into a fight, (s)he is not going to be able to take the same number of 9mm bullet wounds as one could take roundhouse kicks.

I'd have it as an option, as N&S is meant to model action movies and sometimes in those movies firearms just aren't as deadly.

MA Styles: All original MA styles remain, after all that is the foundation of the game. Rifter 7 is a requirement for inclusion. That's 11 more MA styles and it takes the game out of the dominated Asian influence giving it more of an international flavor. Excess styles go into a Martial Arts Supplemental.

I'd go with the Lee Casebolt's article from Rifter #3 instead, better written and researched.

MA Powers: Boost from 6 to somewhere between 12 to 20 per category. Excess powers go into a Martial Arts Supplemental.

I think the current amount is fine.

OCC's: Personally, I like the way they are. Maybe add a few more....maybe. Like most, I don't care for how weak the Dedicated Martial Artist is, but that appears to be a fight that may not be won should there be a rewrite. Although, I think the Exclusive forms should be opened up to the Worldly Martial Artist. Ninjitsu can remain a DMA only considering it is 2 forms in one martial art, but all the others should not be restricted. After all, Hwarang-do is comparable to Ninjitsu?

Restore them back to the original versions and delete the extras. Additional Skill Programs will help make more variations rather than more O.C.C.s.

Skills & Skill Programs: Boost the skill programs and skills to give players/characters more options and solve discrepancies between systems. This would start with compiling all the skills from all the product lines, rewriting to correct discrepancies and then deciding what to include in the new N&SS. What it also allows for is a Skills List Supplemental for all Palladium products.

Agreed.

Covers: Boost covers from the 30 to around 100+.

Enh. I'd actually try and make the covers make sense in relation to the skills the character possesses.

Bionics: Adjust for technological advancements and include bionic/cybernetics from the Rifts Bionic Sourcebook.

I don't know about using stuff from Rifts, but a serious look at current prosthetics would make the cybernetics section a little less like things that wouldn't even be used in the "Six Million Dollar Man".

Equipment: As mentioned above increase the vehicle mods. Modern weapons get an overhaul. I am a gun freak and it is somewhat evident that whoever put the weapons list together was not. No offense, it just is what it is. Half the pistols do not belong on the list, because no self-respecting operative who lives by The Way Of The Gun would carry one of them. Why is the HKMP5 not included in the list when it is the #1 sub-machinegun in the world? The WA 2000 sniper rifle, no one outside of the Germans used that rifle, and they barely used it themselves. Sure it looks cool, but it was a heavy piece of garbage. I know there is a modern weapons compendium available, but this is a modern scenario game and as such players should have a certain set of basics at their fingertips upon initial purchase which should be bigger then it is. Therefore, increase the weapons, ancient included, and tradecraft specific equipment.

I have a list of updated weapons. I changed them on a one-for-one basis in order to keep the page count the same. I tried to make an interesting list rather than a practical one. I should post it here.

Money:Adjust all money listed in the game to reflect inflation increases over the last 20 years. Right now my characters start with double the starting amount listed in the OCC and salaries are 1.5 times what is listed.

Makes sense, I'd have to look at the inflation rate though.

In the end, if Palladium didn't want to commit follow-on resources for publishing, they could release it as an E-book. They get a game updated by the fans, for the fans and maybe a supplemental or two at minimal cost. For "consideration" (that's lawyer speak) of the NDA, all those involved in the project get a free copy of the updated game and if Palladium is feeling generous maybe .5% to 1% royalties for the group.

Never happen. The royalties that is.

[Desert Rat]

I'd have it as an option, as N&S is meant to model action movies and sometimes in those movies firearms just aren't as deadly.

Now I may be wrong here as I have never really played the other PB games so I am not really familiar with the rules, but my interpretation of the rules has always been that weapon damage is immediately applied to HP and blunt force trauma starts off with SDC and then is applied to HP once SDC is depleted.

This being that in N&SS it is stated under Hit Points that damage from weapons is subtracted from a characters Hit Points and under SDC the example is of a boxer being able to withstand a beating.

Now I may be wrong, but I just can't see a character throwing away his 9mm pistol (3D6) because he averages more damage with his foot, roundhouse kick (3D6 + bonuses).

[Library Ogre]

That's a common rule, DR, but it's not the RAW.

[Vidynn]

yes, it is dated, as are all PB-systems. but it still works, and is a fun game! (btw, I didnt click any of the answers - would go for "yes" but if they ever did an update my first choice would be background, not character creation!).

[Vidynn]

uhm, in this thread I wrote "dated" NOT "dead"!

[Vidynn]

no problem at all.

[Mantisking]

I've always liked N&SS, but it's always had more of a sorcebook feel to it. No real story or plot behind the game,just a bunch of OCCs and cool martial arts. I would love to see that game really given a life of its own.

It's a "toolbox" game. It doesn't need story or plot because you add them on your own.