MD Snipers

[Incriptus]

Yeah I know a sniper thread appears every few months, but now it's my turn. From my experience actually playing a sniper is kinda boring, so making a "playable" character really isn't the point of this exorcise. One of my pet Rifts groups is an orginization called Tactical Hazardous Engagements, or T.H.E for short. T.H.E. is a merc group and i've been thinking up support personell, who the main characters can call on when the mission calls for it. The pilot, the operator, the salon bum, the radio man, ect. So right now I'm kinda stuck on the teams Sniper. I've got him done, he's death when it comes to unarmored mortal beings (but who isn't), its just that it's really hard to one-shot one-kill an MD being without resorting to artillary or missle strikes. Now most of the time I'm willing to just write it off, A) it's not fun to be on the recieving end of a sniper attack, and B) "they're supernatural, physical damage doesn't mean the same thing. but in this case the Sniper is a support NPC who is dealing with mooks. So that bypasses objection A. Secondly, what if he's shooting a natural MD being (ie a dino, I know what Dino swamp says and even at tripple damage it'll take a half dozen to a dozen head shots to fell a large dino). I consider using the Contemporary Weapons rules, but since MD beings lack HP, x4 direct to hitpoints is just x4 to MD, and with his rilfe of choice that's still little more than a scratch to something over 20 MD (sure it's low damage but I racked up a +13 called shot on that bad boy at first level).. . . I know I could replace it with bigger guns but I'm still talking about 4d6 * 4, average 56 MD . . . which is good damage but still little more than a sun tan to the likes of a gargoyle.

Mostly I'm just writing down my small frustration here, but I want to know any of your thoughts on trying for MD sniping with a conventional North American fire arm.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

Even if it only stings a little, a RamJet round in your eye will slow you down. It might not penetrate to a Gargoyles brain, but it sure as hell will hurt. Now one MD might not do much more than scratch the cornea, but that hurts too, and 10 MD might even detach it.

Besides, True Sniping isn't always about the one-hitting of your baddies. They do many things for support, as long as people know snipers are around, they tend to stick to cover, and keep their heads down. This tends to make shooting you hard. They can also be used for recon, to call in artillery or air strikes, and any number of the uses they find IRL.

[Killer Cyborg]

Mostly I'm just writing down my small frustration here, but I want to know any of your thoughts on trying for MD sniping with a conventional North American fire arm.

Sometimes a sniper just isn't the right tool for the job.
This happens more in Rifts than in real life, because Rifts is a fantasy setting with very powerful creatures.

Too bad for snipers; you don't get to be able to do everything you want in life.

Now you can't one-shot kill certain enemies, and you have to ten-shot or twenty-shot kill them instead.
It takes more time, but what makes you a sniper is shooting from a concealed position, not one-shotting the enemy. As long as they can't find you, and you have ammo, you can keep shooting until they drop.

[Natasha]

Mostly I'm just writing down my small frustration here, but I want to know any of your thoughts on trying for MD sniping with a conventional North American fire arm.

I don't think there's a place for sniping and M.D.C..

[Cybermancer]

Why have one sniper when you can have ten to twenty concentrating their fire on one target?

As a team, they fire from ten (or more) different locations and move. Using scrambled and encrypted radios they co-ordinate their shots for maximum effect. You don't need terribly powerful weapons for this tactic to become very effective. Depending on weapon choices you can easily do (the equivelant) of 2D6X10 to 4D6X10 MD twice a melee.

There are other advantages as well. One bad roll to strike doesn't mean total ineffectiveness, just reduces the overall effectiveness. Same goes for taking out one sniper.

Terrain will dictate how well you can pull off something like this, but terrain is a consideration for all tactics.

[runebeo]

In our game we have 2 snipers with modified sniper rifles that fire uranium rounds and depleted uranium rounds. We use them to tag demons, dragons, gargoyles and other creatures with power regeneration at long range to stop their regeneration then storm their position or draw them in. Its true snipers are not that effective against supernatural creatures with tons of m.d.c.s but if you use groups of snipers and crossfire tactics with backup available allot can be done. Our snipers usually use mines, explosive charges, pit traps, tear gas and magic protection circles to protect their positions if their time for preparations. Our operator has also rigged up some holographic projectors to project extra snipers to draw the creatures attention and the snipers can quickly abandon their camouflaged position to take off with their jet packs drawing their quarry deeper into the next snipers kill zone. In Rifts a snipers best friend is his jet pack since few creature fly faster than 70 mph.

[Natasha]

Why have one sniper when you can have ten to twenty concentrating their fire on one target?

Hm. Depends on your available resources, I suppose.

Sniper teams often have security squads they're attached to lurking about somewhere nearby.

With all the effort, coordination, and resources involved in moving many snipers into an AO and into a suitable position, might be so that a different strategy is in order.

Thought-provoking, Cybermancer....

[Incriptus]

Why have one sniper when you can have ten to twenty concentrating their fire on one target?

Simple answer T.H.E. isn't large enought to have that large a contigent of specialized units

[Cybermancer]

Why have one sniper when you can have ten to twenty concentrating their fire on one target?

Simple answer T.H.E. isn't large enought to have that large a contigent of specialized units

Then perhaps T.H.E. isn't large enough to consider sniper tactics against powerful supernatural opponents and should restrict themselves to targets more in line with thier resources. And I'm not trying to be snarky here. They should employ their sniper asset where they are most useful. Against soft and vulnerable targets. Or as a momentary distraction during battle.

One of the PC's is knocked down, a monster closes for the kill. It's about to strike, then suddenly it's blinded by a laser to the eye. By the time it's blinked away the pain, the fallen PC is up on his feet again and the sniper has changed positions.

[rat_bastard]

keep in mind one hit kill is not the main function of a rifts sniper, at least not the goal of a rifts sniper that would like to survive. The Palladium System rewards targeting specific areas on an enemy, and there are allot of things you can do easier than kill that are as effective or nearly as effective.

Robot vehicles are one of the best examples of this, the coalition for the longest time had the bad habit of putting their most important sensor systems on a small lightly defended turret on their robot vehicles. Not to mention that most robot vehicles have only two (comparatively) lightly armored legs.

[Killer Cyborg]

Why have one sniper when you can have ten to twenty concentrating their fire on one target?

As a team, they fire from ten (or more) different locations and move. Using scrambled and encrypted radios they co-ordinate their shots for maximum effect. You don't need terribly powerful weapons for this tactic to become very effective. Depending on weapon choices you can easily do (the equivelant) of 2D6X10 to 4D6X10 MD twice a melee.

There are other advantages as well. One bad roll to strike doesn't mean total ineffectiveness, just reduces the overall effectiveness. Same goes for taking out one sniper.

Terrain will dictate how well you can pull off something like this, but terrain is a consideration for all tactics.

Good thoughts, Cybermancer.

[Killer Cyborg]

keep in mind one hit kill is not the main function of a rifts sniper, at least not the goal of a rifts sniper that would like to survive. The Palladium System rewards targeting specific areas on an enemy, and there are allot of things you can do easier than kill that are as effective or nearly as effective.

Robot vehicles are one of the best examples of this, the coalition for the longest time had the bad habit of putting their most important sensor systems on a small lightly defended turret on their robot vehicles. Not to mention that most robot vehicles have only two (comparatively) lightly armored legs.

And with most opponents, if you take out their gun then they're effectively negated from combat.

[Natasha]

keep in mind one hit kill is not the main function of a rifts sniper, at least not the goal of a rifts sniper that would like to survive. The Palladium System rewards targeting specific areas on an enemy, and there are allot of things you can do easier than kill that are as effective or nearly as effective.

Robot vehicles are one of the best examples of this, the coalition for the longest time had the bad habit of putting their most important sensor systems on a small lightly defended turret on their robot vehicles. Not to mention that most robot vehicles have only two (comparatively) lightly armored legs.

And with most opponents, if you take out their gun then they're effectively negated from combat.

That's a good reason to figure M.D.C. for all weapons, assuming all weapons that deal M.D. are themselves capable of sustaining M.D.
And it also raises a question if a M.D. weapon has M.D.C.: if I pistol whip you with a Wilks laser pistol, do you die?

[Library Ogre]

keep in mind one hit kill is not the main function of a rifts sniper, at least not the goal of a rifts sniper that would like to survive. The Palladium System rewards targeting specific areas on an enemy, and there are allot of things you can do easier than kill that are as effective or nearly as effective.

Robot vehicles are one of the best examples of this, the coalition for the longest time had the bad habit of putting their most important sensor systems on a small lightly defended turret on their robot vehicles. Not to mention that most robot vehicles have only two (comparatively) lightly armored legs.

And with most opponents, if you take out their gun then they're effectively negated from combat.

That's a good reason to figure M.D.C. for all weapons, assuming all weapons that deal M.D. are themselves capable of sustaining M.D.
And it also raises a question if a M.D. weapon has M.D.C.: if I pistol whip you with a Wilks laser pistol, do you die?

Only if you have supernatural strength or do it for a while.

If you do it all night long, I will, indeed, die and go to heaven.

[Natasha]

keep in mind one hit kill is not the main function of a rifts sniper, at least not the goal of a rifts sniper that would like to survive. The Palladium System rewards targeting specific areas on an enemy, and there are allot of things you can do easier than kill that are as effective or nearly as effective.

Robot vehicles are one of the best examples of this, the coalition for the longest time had the bad habit of putting their most important sensor systems on a small lightly defended turret on their robot vehicles. Not to mention that most robot vehicles have only two (comparatively) lightly armored legs.

And with most opponents, if you take out their gun then they're effectively negated from combat.

That's a good reason to figure M.D.C. for all weapons, assuming all weapons that deal M.D. are themselves capable of sustaining M.D.
And it also raises a question if a M.D. weapon has M.D.C.: if I pistol whip you with a Wilks laser pistol, do you die?

Only if you have supernatural strength or do it for a while.

So it means that material with M.D.C. doesn't necessarily inflict M.D. on S.D.C. squishies?

If you do it all night long, I will, indeed, die and go to heaven.

Hm. I'm sure I'd need to take a break, maybe if I just kept switching hands...

[Killer Cyborg]

So it means that material with M.D.C. doesn't necessarily inflict M.D. on S.D.C. squishies?

Correct.

[Cybermancer]

Good thoughts, Cybermancer.

Thanks!

I first developed this strategy in Robotech. I have shown both GM's and players that it's a mistake to dismiss unarmored infantry with weapons that do 'only' 2D4 MD (the 25mm grenade launcher for the Wolverine assualt rifle from the old RDF manual).

[Cybermancer]

If you do it all night long, I will, indeed, die and go to heaven.

Hm. I'm sure I'd need to take a break, maybe if I just kept switching hands...

You'd need a second person as well, unless you had either a camelback and Depends, even then you'd be awfully hungry.

So a full camelback, Depends, and a few sandwiches in easy-open packets in your pockets, and you should be good to go.

If the individual is tied up, then you can leave them alone to argue with their pain while you take care of your needs.

[Cybermancer]

Well yes, but that wouldn't precisely be "all night long" would it?

It wouldn't be non-stop all night long but would qualify as "all night long".

And if you're the person being pistol whipped, I think it would be close enough to count.

[Natasha]

So a full camelback, Depends, and a few sandwiches in easy-open packets in your pockets, and you should be good to go.

This was funny enough that it caught me by surprise and I snorted a little before laughing out loud.

Since it's Mark we're talking about, I'd probably use break time to waterboard him some.

[Natasha]

So it means that material with M.D.C. doesn't necessarily inflict M.D. on S.D.C. squishies?

Correct.

Interesting. I never knew this was the rule.

[Killer Cyborg]

Instead of a sniper I'd set up a pair of heavy machinegunners and loaders.

Right.
It must be time for me to sleep, because I could have sworn you said "a pair of sexy machinegunners..."


Night, all.

[Killer Cyborg]

So it means that material with M.D.C. doesn't necessarily inflict M.D. on S.D.C. squishies?

Correct.

Interesting. I never knew this was the rule.

It's mentioned in the main book or SB1, IIRC.
Maybe in connection to Neural Maces, since they're MDC weapons that inflict SDC.

[Balabanto]

In order for snipers to be effective in Rifts, you HAVE to enforce the movement rules. In most engagements, the first sniper shot should hit long before most people actually are capable of engaging the enemy in melee combat. Pass 1 Aiming, everyone moves. Pass 2 Calling, Everyone Moves, Pass 3 BANG, sniper shot hits, everyone moves. Pass 4 Engagement, Aiming...., etc. If people properly time it, that first target has been hit for 1d6x10 MD or more before the meat of the engagement happens, and if you properly choose targets, the Sniper is already selecting a new target for the next shot.

It takes a special kind of character to play a sniper. For some hints, there's a show called Flashpoint! on CBS that you should see. You have to be patient. You have to choose your targets carefully, which is the mistake that most people make when playing Rifts. The GI-Joe role makes snipers exceptionally deadly. You hold action, and wait for their armor to vaporize. THEN you shoot them when their armor GI-Joes. Are they dead? Unless they've got stupid MDC, probably they are. And if they do, now they know how screwed they are.

Also: Do not forget to trick your rifle out. Remember that nasty Advanced Thermal Sight from Juicer Uprisings. Put that on a laser weapon and remember. It DOES shoot through trees and the like. Take an extra action to move. A sniper is not a perfect killer. A sniper is either an assassin or battlefield control. You have to decide at the start of the battle which you're going to be.

There are lots of ways to play an effective sniper. But the key rule is this:

WAIT FOR YOUR TIME! Not everything is about right now!

[Natasha]

So it means that material with M.D.C. doesn't necessarily inflict M.D. on S.D.C. squishies?

Correct.

Interesting. I never knew this was the rule.

It's mentioned in the main book or SB1, IIRC.
Maybe in connection to Neural Maces, since they're MDC weapons that inflict SDC.

Cool, thanks. I'll look for it when my replacement RUE comes in and I know a guy with SB1 so I can ask him about it, too.

Sexy machinegunners lol

[Dog_O_War]

I have a few questions for the OP, and you other posters in-general.

1) Where in the books does it say that MDC lasers are visible? I can't find this tid-bit, so from a real-world perspective only lasers beyond the visible wave-length of light are powerful enough to harm something (barring seeing aids).

2) You people don't enforce common-sense on a head-shot? That is, it should do atleast double-damage before criticals. This'd turn a 4d6 weapon (avg. 14) into an 8d6 weapon (avg. 28); That's enough to two-shot a CS soldier in full armour. Not completely unreasonable given the game's perimeters. Hell, on an actual critical it is a one-shot.

3) Please tell me you aren't totalling up all the MDC for a non-armoured creature and applying it to any and all locations the PC's may target!? Like how armour is divided, the flesh-body of a foe should be divided this way as well (use a percentage if needed).

4) Unreasonable demands; like one-hit killing a Glitterboy. This isn't what you're after, is it?


Maybe take these into consideration before discounting the "killability" of a sniper. Also, I would like to add that if lasers are shooting visible light, it is stated in the combat section that these blasts are usually a micro-second; good luck calculating anything off of that.
Hell, a bullet is in the barrel for longer than a laser takes to reach its target. But that's just an observation on my part.

Good Luck

[slade the sniper]

Lasers do not shoot "visible light beams", any more than flashlights do.

Go buy a laser pointer. Point it at something. See a red spot appear, but there is no "laser beam" in the intervening space. Same thing with flashlight.

Granted particulates in the air WILL reflect/deflect the light and thus you can see where it is (such as in spy movies and such)...


-STS

[keir451]

Even if it only stings a little, a RamJet round in your eye will slow you down. It might not penetrate to a Gargoyles brain, but it sure as hell will hurt. Now one MD might not do much more than scratch the cornea, but that hurts too, and 10 MD might even detach it.

Besides, True Sniping isn't always about the one-hitting of your baddies. They do many things for support, as long as people know snipers are around, they tend to stick to cover, and keep their heads down. This tends to make shooting you hard. They can also be used for recon, to call in artillery or air strikes, and any number of the uses they find IRL.

I disagree, if I hit a gargoyle in the eye w/a ramjet round even if it is "only" one M.D. then eye just took out his eye, if I use a SAMAS railgun and only fire one round at 1d4 M.D. then eye probably hit his brain and he's dead.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

Even if it only stings a little, a RamJet round in your eye will slow you down. It might not penetrate to a Gargoyles brain, but it sure as hell will hurt. Now one MD might not do much more than scratch the cornea, but that hurts too, and 10 MD might even detach it.

Besides, True Sniping isn't always about the one-hitting of your baddies. They do many things for support, as long as people know snipers are around, they tend to stick to cover, and keep their heads down. This tends to make shooting you hard. They can also be used for recon, to call in artillery or air strikes, and any number of the uses they find IRL.

I disagree, if I hit a gargoyle in the eye w/a ramjet round even if it is "only" one M.D. then eye just took out his eye, if I use a SAMAS railgun and only fire one round at 1d4 M.D. then eye probably hit his brain and he's dead.

Ok Brother Eye, Eye wil acknowledge your opinion, but Eye follow the thought that if it has 600 MDC, 1 MD will not puncture its eye. Hurt a whole crapload, Oh Yeah. OH YEAH *CRASH*ehf'in Kool Aid Man

Eye belive that 10 MD would at least blind him for a while, but he could probobly just blink off 1 MD.

[Killer Cyborg]

Got the laser pointer, for some reason it's not blasting a hole in my wall. Oh! Must not be the same kind of laser.

Hm.
Try hooking it to a car battery.

[Natasha]

Got the laser pointer, for some reason it's not blasting a hole in my wall. Oh! Must not be the same kind of laser.

Hm.
Try hooking it to a car battery.

I'm guessing that the voltage would destroy the circuitry of the laser pointer.

[Cybermancer]

Got the laser pointer, for some reason it's not blasting a hole in my wall. Oh! Must not be the same kind of laser.

Hm.
Try hooking it to a car battery.

I'm guessing that the voltage would destroy the circuitry of the laser pointer.

You're probably right but I have this overwhelming urge to try it. Probably a good thing I can't find my pointer at the moment.

[Natasha]

Got the laser pointer, for some reason it's not blasting a hole in my wall. Oh! Must not be the same kind of laser.

Hm.
Try hooking it to a car battery.

I'm guessing that the voltage would destroy the circuitry of the laser pointer.

You're probably right but I have this overwhelming urge to try it. Probably a good thing I can't find my pointer at the moment.

I'd say it's certainly a good thing.
Although if you built a suit or a harness to carry the battery and attach it to your laser that might be interesting..right up to the point you destroy your laser, of course.

[Cybermancer]

Got the laser pointer, for some reason it's not blasting a hole in my wall. Oh! Must not be the same kind of laser.

Hm.
Try hooking it to a car battery.

I'm guessing that the voltage would destroy the circuitry of the laser pointer.

Follow these instructions if you want to have a laser pointer that does damage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgJ0EpxjZBU

This... this is going to get me into so much trouble.

[Natasha]

Got the laser pointer, for some reason it's not blasting a hole in my wall. Oh! Must not be the same kind of laser.

Hm.
Try hooking it to a car battery.

I'm guessing that the voltage would destroy the circuitry of the laser pointer.

Follow these instructions if you want to have a laser pointer that does damage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgJ0EpxjZBU

This... this is going to get me into so much trouble.

Aye, powerful laser diodes are getting affordable without cannibalising computer hardward. We used a 1W green laser diode in our Astronomy class to point to things in the sky since you can see the beam and it stretches for many miles. (I don't know if they will ignite sulfur-free gunpowder though, since sulfur reduces the amount of energy the powder needs for ignition.)

[Library Ogre]

Hm.
Try hooking it to a car battery.

Didn't work either.

As a side note, the battery gave me the finger and the laser screamed rape when I tried this...should I not have gone with the Johnny 5 model?

If you have a Johnny 5 mode laser, you don't need the car battery.

[Incriptus]

I have a few questions for the OP, and you other posters in-general.

1) Where in the books does it say that MDC lasers are visible? I can't find this tid-bit, so from a real-world perspective only lasers beyond the visible wave-length of light are powerful enough to harm something (barring seeing aids).

2) You people don't enforce common-sense on a head-shot? That is, it should do atleast double-damage before criticals. This'd turn a 4d6 weapon (avg. 14) into an 8d6 weapon (avg. 28); That's enough to two-shot a CS soldier in full armour. Not completely unreasonable given the game's perimeters. Hell, on an actual critical it is a one-shot.

3) Please tell me you aren't totalling up all the MDC for a non-armoured creature and applying it to any and all locations the PC's may target!? Like how armour is divided, the flesh-body of a foe should be divided this way as well (use a percentage if needed).

4) Unreasonable demands; like one-hit killing a Glitterboy. This isn't what you're after, is it?


Maybe take these into consideration before discounting the "killability" of a sniper. Also, I would like to add that if lasers are shooting visible light, it is stated in the combat section that these blasts are usually a micro-second; good luck calculating anything off of that.
Hell, a bullet is in the barrel for longer than a laser takes to reach its target. But that's just an observation on my part.

Good Luck

1) it doesn't but it does mention when things are invisible

2) There are two different things going on in this question. A) yes even if the head shot does up to 4x damage it still is little more than a scratch to a brodkil/gargoyle.B) shooting a CS sodier's helmet isn't really a head shot to me, it's an armor shot.

3) The flesh body shouldn't be devided up, its not that way for SDC creatures, as a matter of fact the reason why you do extra damage to those small areas is beause it's not divided. I would do one of the other.

4) No, I don't want a sniper to take out a tank, it dosn't work that way in SDC enviornments so it shouldn't work that way in MD enviornments. What i'm lamenting is that a MD sniper can't take out an MD foot soldier the way a SDC sniper can take out an SDC foot soldier.

[Cybermancer]

4) No, I don't want a sniper to take out a tank, it dosn't work that way in SDC enviornments so it shouldn't work that way in MD enviornments. What i'm lamenting is that a MD sniper can't take out an MD foot soldier the way a SDC sniper can take out an SDC foot soldier.

While I 100% agree that snipers don't take out tanks, there are anti-material options for snipers. That's where the big 20mm and 25mm weapons come into the picture. And even with these weapons, they don't aim to destroy vehicles so much as destroy vulnerable parts. I saw one show about technology they were working on to produce guided bullets. The scenerio they show is a sniper taking out a turret ring on a tank.

So to reiterate, I don't think lone snipers should be destroying tanks or their supernatural equivelents they can still have a role to play by targeting vulnerable components. Especially if used against Chipwell gear. Probably Golden Age gear as well.

And if you really, really want your sniper to go after the big dogs, you could always give them that Naruni shoulder canon. Average output from that beastly thing is about 70 MDC. If you allow double damage for head shots or just because snipers are usually scoring surprise attacks then that's an average of 140 MDC to the head. And if they crit, then things just get silly. I must admit, my inner munchkin loves this thing.

Of course, you'll bring down the wrath of the CS on your head. They're not going to like the idea of a sniper running around one shotting their powerarmor with alien weaponry.

[Dog_O_War]

1) it doesn't but it does mention when things are invisible

Well as I said previously, real-world damaging lasers are invisible to the human eye. Given the era this game was invented, I'm wondering if KS didn't just think that lasers were a "logical" leap of that potrayed in the film Real Genius.
As I mentioned previously, if it does not say that lasers are visible then it is assumed that we default to reality. To do otherwise is either foolish or delusional. Cover-art aside.

2) There are two different things going on in this question. A) yes even if the head shot does up to 4x damage it still is little more than a scratch to a brodkil/gargoyle.B) shooting a CS sodier's helmet isn't really a head shot to me, it's an armor shot.

3) The flesh body shouldn't be devided up, its not that way for SDC creatures, as a matter of fact the reason why you do extra damage to those small areas is beause it's not divided. I would do one of the other.

So then (to start with your #3 answer) I can specifically head-shot a titan juicer with a .38 to the eyeball and expect to be forced to whittle through possible thousands of SDC (even at x4 damage), just because you refuse to believe that the body shouldn't be divided up like armour is? That seems abit mad in its premise, does it not?

And to #2; A - 52 points of damage (4d6 x4 avg) is certainly more than a "scratch", especially when it's more than 1/10th your HP total that is now simply missing. Think about it; if your a 500 MDC being and you just lost a little over 1/10th your body directly from your head, how would you be feeling? While B - how much more of a head-shot does an impact to the head need to get, before it infact becomes a "head-shot" to you? These are rhetorical questions here.

4) No, I don't want a sniper to take out a tank, it dosn't work that way in SDC enviornments so it shouldn't work that way in MD enviornments. What i'm lamenting is that a MD sniper can't take out an MD foot soldier the way a SDC sniper can take out an SDC foot soldier.

The problem is exactly the same though in an SDC environment; you're letting MD in an SDC world delude you into thinking otherwise. The difference though is that humans don't have the same HP scale as SDC weapons do for damage. That is, if you took a minor MD creature (on-par with the current state of MD weaponry), you wouldn't be singing this tune.

That is; while an SDC sniper-rifle can do 10-60 points of SDC, possibly doing a human's total average HP 3 times over, an MD sniper-rifle only does 1/3 this; barely enough to kill the MD of a minor MD being at full damage.

And now you're talking about beings that are most definitely not minor MD.

You might as well complain that you can't one-shot a titan juicer with a barret simply beause you are also refusing to aknowledge two things; 1) not all beings are created equal. 2) forcing all damage of a being to be dealt regardless of location hit is ruining the game as a whole.

With #2 here, your players already accept that without armour, a single hit can kill them. Why create a double-standard against them for it?

[Dog_O_War]

4) No, I don't want a sniper to take out a tank, it dosn't work that way in SDC enviornments so it shouldn't work that way in MD enviornments. What i'm lamenting is that a MD sniper can't take out an MD foot soldier the way a SDC sniper can take out an SDC foot soldier.

While I 100% agree that snipers don't take out tanks, there are anti-material options for snipers. That's where the big 20mm and 25mm weapons come into the picture. And even with these weapons, they don't aim to destroy vehicles so much as destroy vulnerable parts. I saw one show about technology they were working on to produce guided bullets. The scenerio they show is a sniper taking out a turret ring on a tank.

So to reiterate, I don't think lone snipers should be destroying tanks or their supernatural equivelents they can still have a role to play by targeting vulnerable components.

Why? They already can in Rifts.

Take an M1 Abrams tank; now pit him against a sniper in Rifts. This sniper is using a weapon that inflicts 1d6x10 SDC; more than enough to pick apart a tank. He starts with the sensors, effectively blinding the crew to his long-range assualt. Then he moves on to the other vitals of the tank, plunking away at about 30 SDC per shot. he may spend 1-2 minutes blasting away at this tank, but given the design of the game, it is completely possible for a sniper to work-over a tank in a matter of minutes. That's pretty good for a single man armed only with a rifle and no explosives.

[Natasha]

Of course, you'll bring down the wrath of the CS on your head. They're not going to like the idea of a sniper running around one shotting their powerarmor with alien weaponry.

One of the fundamental requirements of being a sniper is to be completely and totally hated and hunted by opposing forces.

Otherwise you're just a marksman with a rifle.

[Cybermancer]

So to reiterate, I don't think lone snipers should be destroying tanks or their supernatural equivelents they can still have a role to play by targeting vulnerable components.

Why? They already can in Rifts.

Take an M1 Abrams tank; now pit him against a sniper in Rifts. This sniper is using a weapon that inflicts 1d6x10 SDC; more than enough to pick apart a tank. He starts with the sensors, effectively blinding the crew to his long-range assualt. Then he moves on to the other vitals of the tank, plunking away at about 30 SDC per shot. he may spend 1-2 minutes blasting away at this tank, but given the design of the game, it is completely possible for a sniper to work-over a tank in a matter of minutes. That's pretty good for a single man armed only with a rifle and no explosives.

Since you bolded a portion of my commment I will focus my answer based on that. I start the sentance with "I do not think..." This is what I think, not an interpretation of the rules as written. The game mechanics as written for the SDC or even the MDC settings do not effect how I think it should work.

So no, I do not think that snipers should be destroying tanks or their supernatural equivelents.

[Natasha]

So no, I do not think that snipers should be destroying tanks or their supernatural equivelents.

Unless they're operating in the role of a FAC, then that's just plain fun.

I think I've been reading RECON too much lately.

[keir451]

The only issue I have is with Dog of War's description of a sniper taking out an M-1 Abrams, and the idea of an abrams being an sdc structure. To use KS's MDC explanation, a tank is an MDC structure, you can fire an SDC weapon at it all day and only scratch the paint. Also according to the U.S.Army (and an M-1 Abrams crewman) the only thing that can kill an Abrams is... another Abrams. Or a direct hit from a Nuclear weapon.

[Dog_O_War]

So to reiterate, I don't think lone snipers should be destroying tanks or their supernatural equivelents they can still have a role to play by targeting vulnerable components.

Why? They already can in Rifts.

Take an M1 Abrams tank; now pit him against a sniper in Rifts. This sniper is using a weapon that inflicts 1d6x10 SDC; more than enough to pick apart a tank. He starts with the sensors, effectively blinding the crew to his long-range assualt. Then he moves on to the other vitals of the tank, plunking away at about 30 SDC per shot. he may spend 1-2 minutes blasting away at this tank, but given the design of the game, it is completely possible for a sniper to work-over a tank in a matter of minutes. That's pretty good for a single man armed only with a rifle and no explosives.

Since you bolded a portion of my commment I will focus my answer based on that. I start the sentance with "I do not think..." This is what I think, not an interpretation of the rules as written. The game mechanics as written for the SDC or even the MDC settings do not effect how I think it should work.

So no, I do not think that snipers should be destroying tanks or their supernatural equivelents.

That's great and all, and I actually agree completely with what you think.

The problem though is that not everyone thinks you are correct. There are those that follow the game to the letter, and use the weapons listed, in the manner listed. Are they wrong to do so?

On the flip-side, there are people such as myself that believe a change is in-order; so that the weapons listed cannot be used in the manner listed without assurance of failure. Rifts promotes (within its rules) a "well I can just keep beating my head against this wall until the wall falls down" mannerism. That is, the thought train becomes, "well both the wall and my head are SDC, but my head regenerates over time. Therefore I will succeed given enough time". It is completely insane to think that you can literally batter down a wall with your head (in any reasonable amount of time), but the rules themselves allow for it - hoisting apon the game-master to ajudicate these actions. Such a scenario shouldn't require ajudication; it should be automatic - heads can't break walls. But the rules themselves speak to the contrary.

What does this mean?

You (and I) may think it shouldn't work one way - but it does. How do we fix it then? By changing the rules.

[Natasha]

The only issue I have is with Dog of War's description of a sniper taking out an M-1 Abrams, and the idea of an abrams being an sdc structure. To use KS's MDC explanation, a tank is an MDC structure, you can fire an SDC weapon at it all day and only scratch the paint. Also according to the U.S.Army (and an M-1 Abrams crewman) the only thing that can kill an Abrams is... another Abrams. Or a direct hit from a Nuclear weapon.

Abrams have been destroyed in OIF by opposing forces, by the way, without using another Abrams or a nuclear weapon.

[Killer Cyborg]

The only issue I have is with Dog of War's description of a sniper taking out an M-1 Abrams, and the idea of an abrams being an sdc structure. To use KS's MDC explanation, a tank is an MDC structure, you can fire an SDC weapon at it all day and only scratch the paint. Also according to the U.S.Army (and an M-1 Abrams crewman) the only thing that can kill an Abrams is... another Abrams. Or a direct hit from a Nuclear weapon.

This has been argued back and forth.
No Abrams have been statted out, but every other modern tank ever described in a Palladium book is SDC, including the stats in the GAW section of Rifts: Mercenaries that briefly describe what the tanks were like before GAW updated them.

[Killer Cyborg]

So to reiterate, I don't think lone snipers should be destroying tanks or their supernatural equivelents they can still have a role to play by targeting vulnerable components.

Why? They already can in Rifts.

Take an M1 Abrams tank; now pit him against a sniper in Rifts. This sniper is using a weapon that inflicts 1d6x10 SDC; more than enough to pick apart a tank.

I'm assuming that when Cybermancer was talking about "tanks or their supernatural equivalents," that he wasn't talking about antiques.

Also, if you want to conduct an SDC battle against an Abrams, you'd need stats on the Abrams before you could know how easy it would be to take one out.
Even if it's an SDC structure, it could have an AR of 19 and require an absurd level of PV for the attacking weapon before it could be hurt.

[Killer Cyborg]

What i'm lamenting is that a MD sniper can't take out an MD foot soldier the way a SDC sniper can take out an SDC foot soldier.

Welcome to a world where defense is potentially more effective than offense.
Things change, and strategies that work with one level of technology in one environment don't necessarily work with the next level of technology in a different environment.

[kmspade]

Ok, here are my two cents on the whole sniper thing. I don't know if this skill is cannon, but I offer it to my players as an option. I think if they want to play a sniper, the should be allowed to have fun role playing the sniper process. This skill allows for that. Also, I think it is BS that you cannot make an aimed called shot with a laser that fires in pulse mode and counts as one attack. This is a retarded rule. For a regular rifle it makes sense. But LASERS HAVE NO KICK! Also, I think it is reasonalbe to assume that anyone with WP Energy Rifle and the Sniper skill, or Combat Sniper (described below) would have enough practice with the weapon to hold it steady while the 3 pulses are fired microseconds apart. And I don't think the target would move fast enough to matter. So I allow Aimed Called shots with energy pulse weapons only, regular assault type rifles with 3 rnd burst forget it. But for energy weapons I see no problem with an aimed called shot in pulse mode.

Here is the Combat sniper skill I found on the net. I don't know if it is cannon or not, but I like it so I use it.

Jaeger I hope you read and consider this.

Combat Sniper: This is an advanced sniper skill. It costs two other skill selections to get and has to be gotten separately for each weapon proficiency. To be effective the would-be sniper must be in place and the weapon must be steady. This means the sniper cannot be standing up, on a moving vehicle ect. Being well concealed is also a very, very good idea if you want to live.

Once all this is taken care of, the sniper must prepare to take the shot. This is a process of checking the wind, listening to your surroundings, focusing, controlling breathing, ect. For true professionals, it’s almost a state of meditation. The time spent in this preparation determines how effective the shot is, if it hits.

It also takes a minimum of four melee rounds (60 secs.) to get prepared to take a shot. It can never be done in one melee round, since that is not enough time to position the rifle and get in the right mind set. The reason for this is the sniper needs to be relaxed so the weapon can be held steady and be able to concentrate on the target to make it die! Preferably in one clean shot.

Preparation Time:
• Less than 4 melees rounds (rushed, hardly any prep time) -3 to strike, damage as per normal for weapon
• 5 melee rounds to 4 minutes (minimum time for a decent shot) +2 to strike, damage is maximum for weapon (3d6 = 18, 1d4x10 = 40, ect)
• 5 minutes to 10 minutes (good prep time) +4 to strike, damage is maximum x 2.
• Greater than 10 minutes (optimum prep time, sniping at it’s best, one shot one kill) +6 to strike, damage is maximum x 3.

Requires: Camouflage and Prowl
Bonuses:
1. +3 to strike on Aimed shots
2.
3. Critical strike on an unmodified 19-30
4.
5. +1 to strike on Aimed shots
6. Critical strike on an unmodified 18-20
7.
8. +1 to strike on aimed shots
9. Critical strike on an unmodified 17-20
10. It now only takes 4 rounds prep time to fire
11. +1 to strike on aimed shots
12. Critical strike on an unmodified 16-20
13.
14. +1 to strike on aimed shots
15. Critical strike on an unmodified 15-20

Weapon Range Penalties:
• For targets between 50-75% of the weapons range, there is a -1 to strike.
• For targets between 75-90% of the weapons range, there is a -2 to strike.
• For targets above 90% of the weapons range, there is a -4 to strike.
This takes into account for the effects of the environment on the shot (wind, gravity, ect)

Sight Penalties
For every 500 ft away from the target there is a -1 to strike. (any scope or sight modifiers are added after this)
The reason for that is at long range the target will be harder to see. Note: All bonuses and penalties are cumulative.