MD Snipers

[Natasha]

I don't know if it is cannon or not

Not sure about that, but it's not canon.

[keir451]

The only issue I have is with Dog of War's description of a sniper taking out an M-1 Abrams, and the idea of an abrams being an sdc structure. To use KS's MDC explanation, a tank is an MDC structure, you can fire an SDC weapon at it all day and only scratch the paint. Also according to the U.S.Army (and an M-1 Abrams crewman) the only thing that can kill an Abrams is... another Abrams. Or a direct hit from a Nuclear weapon.

This has been argued back and forth.
No Abrams have been statted out, but every other modern tank ever described in a Palladium book is SDC, including the stats in the GAW section of Rifts: Mercenaries that briefly describe what the tanks were like before GAW updated them.

Yer right, but I personally consider an Abram to be similar to the Iron Hammer in MDC and such, just my personal take on things.

[keir451]

What i'm lamenting is that a MD sniper can't take out an MD foot soldier the way a SDC sniper can take out an SDC foot soldier.

Welcome to a world where defense is potentially more effective than offense.
Things change, and strategies that work with one level of technology in one environment don't necessarily work with the next level of technology in a different environment.

If the GM so desires he/she could assign MDC values per sq. in. of the armor allowing for a shot to penetrate and kill the wearer.

[Natasha]

In general M.D.C. doesn't get penetrated. It just gets obliterated at some point.

S.D.C. armour can be penetrated by defeating it's A.R.

[keir451]

In general M.D.C. doesn't get penetrated. It just gets obliterated at some point.

S.D.C. armour can be penetrated by defeating it's A.R.

I just keep recalling some of the covers for the books where we see a trooper withpart of his chestplate blown out (SB 2 Mechanoids) and one w/ a single hole in his helmetw/ blood dripping out (I think that was Juicer Uprising). Yeah, that's probably artistic license but it always stuck w/me, also wasn't there a story line about the CS death camps where a CS soldiers killed another CS soldier w/ a vibro knife to the faceplate (out of Tolkeen wars)? These examples make me think it could be possible.

[Cybermancer]

That's great and all, and I actually agree completely with what you think.

The problem though is that not everyone thinks you are correct. There are those that follow the game to the letter, and use the weapons listed, in the manner listed. Are they wrong to do so?

On the flip-side, there are people such as myself that believe a change is in-order; so that the weapons listed cannot be used in the manner listed without assurance of failure. Rifts promotes (within its rules) a "well I can just keep beating my head against this wall until the wall falls down" mannerism. That is, the thought train becomes, "well both the wall and my head are SDC, but my head regenerates over time. Therefore I will succeed given enough time". It is completely insane to think that you can literally batter down a wall with your head (in any reasonable amount of time), but the rules themselves allow for it - hoisting apon the game-master to ajudicate these actions. Such a scenario shouldn't require ajudication; it should be automatic - heads can't break walls. But the rules themselves speak to the contrary.

What does this mean?

You (and I) may think it shouldn't work one way - but it does. How do we fix it then? By changing the rules.

Okay, I understand a little better where you're coming from and where you're headed with this. And I agree with your assertion that the rules need to be overhauled. I once sat down to write down every house rule I had going and realized that I was just about completely rewriting the rules. In fact, it would almost be easier to rewrite the rules entirely. Since I'm not running any Palladium games at the moment, I've set the project aside.

I would love to see the system get overhauled. And at the same time, I'm a little afraid to think about what it might look like, you know what I mean?

But in the meantime I do what I can with houserules (I.E. changing the rules).

[Natasha]

In general M.D.C. doesn't get penetrated. It just gets obliterated at some point.

S.D.C. armour can be penetrated by defeating it's A.R.

I just keep recalling some of the covers for the books where we see a trooper withpart of his chestplate blown out (SB 2 Mechanoids) and one w/ a single hole in his helmetw/ blood dripping out (I think that was Juicer Uprising). Yeah, that's probably artistic license but it always stuck w/me, also wasn't there a story line about the CS death camps where a CS soldiers killed another CS soldier w/ a vibro knife to the faceplate (out of Tolkeen wars)? These examples make me think it could be possible.

There is such art and perhaps even such fluff text, but it's not in the rules. Most people - I think - will respond that art and fluff aren't canon.

Certainly I didn't intend to say a GM couldn't do as you described.

[Incriptus]

Welcome to a world where defense is potentially more effective than offense.
Things change, and strategies that work with one level of technology in one environment don't necessarily work with the next level of technology in a different environment.

That is probably the best point. It is one that I make to my players when they complain about similar issues to what i'm complaining about

[quote=Dog_o_War]Well as I said previously, real-world damaging lasers are invisible to the human eye. Given the era this game was invented, I'm wondering if KS didn't just think that lasers were a "logical" leap of that potrayed in the film Real Genius.
As I mentioned previously, if it does not say that lasers are visible then it is assumed that we default to reality. To do otherwise is either foolish or delusional. Cover-art aside.

[/quote]


Every laser i've ever seen is visible Plus every cover art, every tv show every movie, everything that is remotely fun . . . lazer's are visible

[quote=Dog_o_War]
So then (to start with your #3 answer) I can specifically head-shot a titan juicer with a .38 to the eyeball and expect to be forced to whittle through possible thousands of SDC (even at x4 damage), just because you refuse to believe that the body shouldn't be divided up like armour is? That seems abit mad in its premise, does it not?
[/quote]

No, Titan Juciers have Hit Points, yes they still have massive number of hit points, so much that they are nearly broken in that respect. but for the most part legitment characters have a limited number of hit points even if they are rolling with tons of SDC 5d6 sdc sniper rifle * 4 average of 70 HP means nothing short of a titan juicer is surviving a brain shot. like a normal juicer with a pe of 30 and HP bonus of 40 still dies. Thats the kinda parellel that i'm looking for

[quote = "Dog O War"]
And to #2; A - 52 points of damage (4d6 x4 avg) is certainly more than a "scratch", especially when it's more than 1/10th your HP total that is now simply missing. Think about it; if your a 500 MDC being and you just lost a little over 1/10th your body directly from your head, how would you be feeling? While B - how much more of a head-shot does an impact to the head need to get, before it infact becomes a "head-shot" to you? These are rhetorical questions here.

[/quote]

You know maybe I am over stating it, It would still take out a truely minor MD being, and I guess to ve fair a Gargoyle is closer to an MD tank than an MDC mook. And looking at brodkil in the revised SB1 he's got a 100 MD head, so I guess it would give them pause, but the MD to SD still doesn't quite paralle.

[quote = dog o war]

The problem is exactly the same though in an SDC environment; you're letting MD in an SDC world delude you into thinking otherwise. The difference though is that humans don't have the same HP scale as SDC weapons do for damage. That is, if you took a minor MD creature (on-par with the current state of MD weaponry), you wouldn't be singing this tune.

That is; while an SDC sniper-rifle can do 10-60 points of SDC, possibly doing a human's total average HP 3 times over, an MD sniper-rifle only does 1/3 this; barely enough to kill the MD of a minor MD being at full damage.

And now you're talking about beings that are most definitely not minor MD.

You might as well complain that you can't one-shot a titan juicer with a barret simply beause you are also refusing to aknowledge two things; 1) not all beings are created equal. 2) forcing all damage of a being to be dealt regardless of location hit is ruining the game as a whole.

With #2 here, your players already accept that without armour, a single hit can kill them. Why create a double-standard against them for it?

[/quote]

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

but i'll try to figure it out. My complaint is that MDC doesn't parellel SDC the way I want it to. I want a MDC gun to be as effective against MD creatures as SDC guns are against SDC creatures. I'll admit that conisdering Gargoyles "foot soldiers" is a mistake as they are more akin to tanks, or perhaps a better analogy would be Gargoyles are to more like shooting a rhino than shooting a human, you're .45 is just going to **** it off.

I've never said that it should be equal regardless of where you hit. I keep on using the 4x damage for head shots (as seen in contemporary weapons). This is how I see it either A) you do 4x damage when shooting the head, or B) the head has 1/4 the SDC. of the main body . . . bot have the same effect. I think you want to have both.

SDC characters should accept that if a person with an SDC weapon gets a critical hit to the head they are probably dead, MDC characters should accept that if a person with a MDC weapon gets a critical hit to the head they are probably dead . . . either should invest in a helmet.

[rbm10101]

lasers in rifts dont make sounds when they fire- does your laser pointer make a audible sound when it is turned on?

light
. Physics
a. Electromagnetic radiation that has a wavelength in the range from about 4,000 (violet) to about 7,700 (red) angstroms and may be perceived by the normal unaided human eye.
b. Electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength.

Electromagnetic Radiation is a HUGE wavelength that is not all visible
I am pretty sure in an the RIFTS tech level they have mastered a way of changing the frequency that is fired from the laser to make it not visible to the naked eye.

Light travels at approximately 186,000 miles per second. go turn on your lightswitch and try to watch the light as it exits the lightbulb and moves across the room. You can't the distance it travels is NIGH instantaneous at that distance. Also the laser is a instant event not a continuous (1 sec, 2 sec, always on) LINE of light it is a super tiny super fast click of a trigger that fires and before you can even see it - it is already blasting a hole in things. It is not a LINE of light that can be seen - even it could be seen you would have to HOLD the trigger down and hold it perfectly still to get a LINE of light. what you get is a event that is over before it can even be seen.

Why else would lasers be so popular in rifts. HUGE RANGE. SILENT. Invisible.

check out the blue green lasers in rifts undersea for underwater lasers and tell me they cant edit/change the frequency of light to a different frequency.

Lasers are invisible and the only reason they make sounds or are seen in movies is for a visual special effect so the audience doesn't get bored.

motion sensors - lasers - go to a grocery store and look at the automatic door - do you see anything shooting out of it?
Rangefinders - do you see the beam of light ?
every movie with laser alarms - non-visible lasers
play the game how you want but please let others do that very same thing

laser communication between two suits of power armor ... do you see the laser with the naked eye ? man that kinda makes the idea of a super secret private two way communication well pointless-

[Dog_O_War]

Well as I said previously, real-world damaging lasers are invisible to the human eye. Given the era this game was invented, I'm wondering if KS didn't just think that lasers were a "logical" leap of that potrayed in the film Real Genius.
As I mentioned previously, if it does not say that lasers are visible then it is assumed that we default to reality. To do otherwise is either foolish or delusional. Cover-art aside.

Every laser i've ever seen is visible Plus every cover art, every tv show every movie, everything that is remotely fun . . . lazer's are visible

heh, then how does your tv remote work? Or better yet, watch a movie that involves a Tac-Ops team, where the only indication that they're there is a red dot on the targets' chest. These are lasers.

So then (to start with your #3 answer) I can specifically head-shot a titan juicer with a .38 to the eyeball and expect to be forced to whittle through possible thousands of SDC (even at x4 damage), just because you refuse to believe that the body shouldn't be divided up like armour is? That seems abit mad in its premise, does it not?

No, Titan Juciers have Hit Points, yes they still have massive number of hit points, so much that they are nearly broken in that respect. but for the most part legitment characters have a limited number of hit points even if they are rolling with tons of SDC 5d6 sdc sniper rifle * 4 average of 70 HP means nothing short of a titan juicer is surviving a brain shot. like a normal juicer with a pe of 30 and HP bonus of 40 still dies. Thats the kinda parellel that i'm looking for

But that hit doesn't go to HP, remember? You wanted it to dice through their SDC/MDC first. (that was you, correct?) EDIT: Guess it wasn't. My bad.

And to #2; A - 52 points of damage (4d6 x4 avg) is certainly more than a "scratch", especially when it's more than 1/10th your HP total that is now simply missing. Think about it; if your a 500 MDC being and you just lost a little over 1/10th your body directly from your head, how would you be feeling? While B - how much more of a head-shot does an impact to the head need to get, before it infact becomes a "head-shot" to you? These are rhetorical questions here.

You know maybe I am over stating it, It would still take out a truely minor MD being, and I guess to ve fair a Gargoyle is closer to an MD tank than an MDC mook. And looking at brodkil in the revised SB1 he's got a 100 MD head, so I guess it would give them pause, but the MD to SD still doesn't quite paralle.

Yes, this is very true. That said, if the sniper is plunking away at the gargoyles' head, it wouldn't take him more than one or two rounds (4-8 attacks) to completely eliminate the gargoyle with a standard MD-rifle; they are usually doing 3d6, and at x3 damage you're looking at an average of 31 damage per hit to the gargoyles' 180 (avg) MDC head.

The problem is exactly the same though in an SDC environment; you're letting MD in an SDC world delude you into thinking otherwise. The difference though is that humans don't have the same HP scale as SDC weapons do for damage. That is, if you took a minor MD creature (on-par with the current state of MD weaponry), you wouldn't be singing this tune.

That is; while an SDC sniper-rifle can do 10-60 points of SDC, possibly doing a human's total average HP 3 times over, an MD sniper-rifle only does 1/3 this; barely enough to kill the MD of a minor MD being at full damage.

And now you're talking about beings that are most definitely not minor MD.

You might as well complain that you can't one-shot a titan juicer with a barret simply beause you are also refusing to aknowledge two things; 1) not all beings are created equal. 2) forcing all damage of a being to be dealt regardless of location hit is ruining the game as a whole.

With #2 here, your players already accept that without armour, a single hit can kill them. Why create a double-standard against them for it?

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

but i'll try to figure it out. My complaint is that MDC doesn't parellel SDC the way I want it to. I want a MDC gun to be as effective against MD creatures as SDC guns are against SDC creatures. I'll admit that conisdering Gargoyles "foot soldiers" is a mistake as they are more akin to tanks, or perhaps a better analogy would be Gargoyles are to more like shooting a rhino than shooting a human, you're .45 is just going to **** it off.

You appear to understand point-1 (not all beings are created equal; gargoyles are "heavy" MDC creatures).

I've never said that it should be equal regardless of where you hit. I keep on using the 4x damage for head shots (as seen in contemporary weapons). This is how I see it either A) you do 4x damage when shooting the head, or B) the head has 1/4 the SDC. of the main body . . . bot have the same effect. I think you want to have both.

This is my mistake here; I was thinking you were forcing the player to eliminate all the MDC regardless of location. This is pretty close to how it works (or should work).

SDC characters should accept that if a person with an SDC weapon gets a critical hit to the head they are probably dead, MDC characters should accept that if a person with a MDC weapon gets a critical hit to the head they are probably dead . . . either should invest in a helmet.

You are right on this point, and even a gargoyle is in dire-straights when a critical to the head comes about. You're doing 1/3 their head-MDC with a rifle designed to fight much smaller targets; this is parallel with forcing a tank to reconsider its course of action cause you just de-treaded it with an AK.

[Killer Cyborg]

What i'm lamenting is that a MD sniper can't take out an MD foot soldier the way a SDC sniper can take out an SDC foot soldier.

Welcome to a world where defense is potentially more effective than offense.
Things change, and strategies that work with one level of technology in one environment don't necessarily work with the next level of technology in a different environment.

If the GM so desires he/she could assign MDC values per sq. in. of the armor allowing for a shot to penetrate and kill the wearer.

If the GM so desires, he/she could turn MDC armor into Fruity Pebbles.
What of it...?

[Killer Cyborg]

The only issue I have is with Dog of War's description of a sniper taking out an M-1 Abrams, and the idea of an abrams being an sdc structure. To use KS's MDC explanation, a tank is an MDC structure, you can fire an SDC weapon at it all day and only scratch the paint. Also according to the U.S.Army (and an M-1 Abrams crewman) the only thing that can kill an Abrams is... another Abrams. Or a direct hit from a Nuclear weapon.

This has been argued back and forth.
No Abrams have been statted out, but every other modern tank ever described in a Palladium book is SDC, including the stats in the GAW section of Rifts: Mercenaries that briefly describe what the tanks were like before GAW updated them.

Yer right, but I personally consider an Abram to be similar to the Iron Hammer in MDC and such, just my personal take on things.

I think you underestimate MDC.

Rifts, p. 11
It is a structural damage capacity that reflects the staggering advancements in science and technology. A technology that has created new super-tough alloys, micronized and even nano-sized circuits, parts, and batteries, and weapons with more power, precision and range than anything we can manufacture in the 20th century.

This shows that MDC is supposed to be advanced technology, stuff that we're not capable of yet.

Also:
RUE, 288
Mega-Damage Capacity (MDC) works the same as SDC, only it represents a level of technology so advanced that MDC materials are better than the heavy armor of a 21st century tank.

[Killer Cyborg]

20th Century was last Century, tell PB to update their flavor texts.

They did, in RUE (p. 288):
...MDC materials are better than the heavy armor of a 21st Century tank.

RUE is the update of Rifts.

[Natasha]

20th Century was last Century, tell PB to update their flavor texts.

They did, in RUE (p. 288):
...MDC materials are better than the heavy armor of a 21st Century tank.

RUE is the update of Rifts.

fluke typo!

[Natasha]

Real-world lasers are invisible, but since every single piece of Rifts artwork I have seen that shows a laser in use shows a visible beam of light, and since they have an underwater laser that uses a different frequency of visible light, and since every science fiction show i have ever seen with lasers in it shows visible beams of light, I am going to assume that in the game, the lasers use a visible beam of light.

It has nothing to do with physics, what lasers are in real life, or any of that. Game mechanics almost always fall under one of two headings. One: Game balance. Two: The rule of cool.

Just as an FYI, some real-world lasers have visible beams.

[rbm10101]

Just as an FYI REAL world light can be ( lasers ) can be in the following colors
notice that a TINY portion of light is in the visible area
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... um.svg.png

and imagine the artist difficulty in drawing if they made the lasers invisble

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

So I recently watched Predator and was inspired to create a Native American Dinosaur Hunter in the spirit of the character "Billy". Except, you know, hopefully minus the part where he challenges a technologically advanced alien to a knife fight.

So anyway, I was looking at that 1D6 MD pea shooter in Rifts Dinosaur Swamp and once again finding it to be lacking for the job it is advertised for. Well, I started a big thread on this subject some months ago and basically we're left with house rules and noncanonical constructions, neither of which are as fulfilling as I would like. So instead of precision weaponry and traditional sniper gear, I started looking around at man-portable weapons that could more realistically do the job of killing a dinosaur with one shot, discounting flechette weapons and rapid fire weapons. After a bit of looking, I found that Rifts does indeed have a medium range rifle of great power:

The WI-GL80 "Super" Grenade Launcher. It fires grenades, yes, but only technically. The description of the weapon more closely fits that of an anti-material rifle or a recoilless rifle. This bad boy can fire high explosive anti-tank explosive formed penetrator rounds at 1D4X10 MD each. It may not be able to fire accurately at targets over a mile away, but it does a very respectable job in the hands of a sniper with good prowl, camouflage, and blending skills.

Yes, there is also the automatic grenade launcher in Rifts Mercenaries with a greater range and ammo capacity, but that's supposed to be either a Borg/Power Armor weapon or a fixed emplacement/vehicle weapon.

I, personally, have always had a fondness for the clip-fed WI-mini-missile launcher. Also, the aesthetics of the NG mini-missile gun/blunderbuss are amusing/pleasing to me.

I personally, don't particularly fit the role of sniper. I prefer loud-and-proud assaults, with head on combat being my specialty, though I can pull off a mean ambush/assassination.

[Shark_Force]

conveniently, if i'm not mistaken, both grenade launcher and mini-missile launcher use the same WP, do they not?

[keir451]

The only issue I have is with Dog of War's description of a sniper taking out an M-1 Abrams, is the idea of an abrams being an sdc structure. To use KS's MDC explanation, a tank is an MDC structure, you can fire an SDC weapon at it all day and only scratch the paint. Also according to the U.S.Army (and an M-1 Abrams crewman) the only thing that can kill an Abrams is... another Abrams. Or a direct hit from a Nuclear weapon.

This has been argued back and forth.
No Abrams have been statted out, but every other modern tank ever described in a Palladium book is SDC, including the stats in the GAW section of Rifts: Mercenaries that briefly describe what the tanks were like before GAW updated them.

Check merc ops, the stats were originally submitted in a Rifter (can't remember which one ). The Rifters stats are higher than those reprinted in Merc Ops. by Kevin.

[keir451]

The only issue I have is with Dog of War's description of a sniper taking out an M-1 Abrams, and the idea of an abrams being an sdc structure. To use KS's MDC explanation, a tank is an MDC structure, you can fire an SDC weapon at it all day and only scratch the paint. Also according to the U.S.Army (and an M-1 Abrams crewman) the only thing that can kill an Abrams is... another Abrams. Or a direct hit from a Nuclear weapon.

Abrams have been destroyed in OIF by opposing forces, by the way, without using another Abrams or a nuclear weapon.

Ah, I hadn't heard that, my info is obviously a bit out of date , Thxs

[keir451]

What i'm lamenting is that a MD sniper can't take out an MD foot soldier the way a SDC sniper can take out an SDC foot soldier.

Welcome to a world where defense is potentially more effective than offense.
Things change, and strategies that work with one level of technology in one environment don't necessarily work with the next level of technology in a different environment.

If the GM so desires he/she could assign MDC values per sq. in. of the armor allowing for a shot to penetrate and kill the wearer.

If the GM so desires, he/she could turn MDC armor into Fruity Pebbles.
What of it...?

As a GM I have had to rule in many cases that MD body armor CAN be penetrated by a called shot to say the eye piece of old CS armor (for example) because in my mind the eye piece had a limited am't of MDC (reasonable modifiers to hit were applied), player in question rolled a nat 20 w/a JA-11 sniper rifle, I had to give him the kill. Also if a Starship in Robotech or Phase World can have MDC per X number of feet on it's hull, then the same principle can be applied to body/ power armor or a supernatural being.

[keir451]

I would like to add that some weapons, like the ATL-7 anti tank laser, which does 3d6x10plus 20 mdc per shot(SA2 p. 166) can be used either as an anti tank weapon or a really nasty sniper rifle.

[Natasha]

The only issue I have is with Dog of War's description of a sniper taking out an M-1 Abrams, and the idea of an abrams being an sdc structure. To use KS's MDC explanation, a tank is an MDC structure, you can fire an SDC weapon at it all day and only scratch the paint. Also according to the U.S.Army (and an M-1 Abrams crewman) the only thing that can kill an Abrams is... another Abrams. Or a direct hit from a Nuclear weapon.

Abrams have been destroyed in OIF by opposing forces, by the way, without using another Abrams or a nuclear weapon.

Ah, I hadn't heard that, my info is obviously a bit out of date , Thxs

Welcome.

But yea up to OIF no Abrams was ever lost to opposing forces.

[keir451]

Yes the Abrams had been given stats but they are off like usual.

Since the Tank being referred to is a GAW rebuilt version, I'm at a loss to understand why the stats are "off" in any way?

(for Killer Cyborg's reference: Merc Ops, pg 127)

As for OIF, the 2 destroyed Abrams were taken out by an RPG fired into the rear engine compartment, and an external auxiliary power source set fire to.

Several were rendered ineffective (but not destroyed) by: a 25mm Depleted Uranium round, RPG AP rounds fired into treads (multiple hits), and where a turret-ready ammo rack was ignited and main gun rounds cooked off (blast doors saved the crew and the rest of the tank) -- just to name a few. In these cases though the tanks were not destroyed, just rendered ineffective in combat.

The guy who submitted the originals in the rifter had a higher mdc total than what kevin reprinted in merc ops, alas I still cannot find the Rifter it was in.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

Yes the Abrams had been given stats but they are off like usual.

Since the Tank being referred to is a GAW rebuilt version, I'm at a loss to understand why the stats are "off" in any way?

(for Killer Cyborg's reference: Merc Ops, pg 127)

As for OIF, the 2 destroyed Abrams were taken out by an RPG fired into the rear engine compartment, and an external auxiliary power source set fire to.

Several were rendered ineffective (but not destroyed) by: a 25mm Depleted Uranium round, RPG AP rounds fired into treads (multiple hits), and where a turret-ready ammo rack was ignited and main gun rounds cooked off (blast doors saved the crew and the rest of the tank) -- just to name a few. In these cases though the tanks were not destroyed, just rendered ineffective in combat.

The guy who submitted the originals in the rifter had a higher mdc total than what kevin reprinted in merc ops, alas I still cannot find the Rifter it was in.

me either

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

The only issue I have is with Dog of War's description of a sniper taking out an M-1 Abrams, and the idea of an abrams being an sdc structure. To use KS's MDC explanation, a tank is an MDC structure, you can fire an SDC weapon at it all day and only scratch the paint. Also according to the U.S.Army (and an M-1 Abrams crewman) the only thing that can kill an Abrams is... another Abrams. Or a direct hit from a Nuclear weapon.

Abrams have been destroyed in OIF by opposing forces, by the way, without using another Abrams or a nuclear weapon.

Ah, I hadn't heard that, my info is obviously a bit out of date , Thxs

Welcome.

But yea up to OIF no Abrams was ever lost to opposing forces.

We lost Abrams in battle during the Gulf War as well. Most were either hit by friendly fire(usually air) or mines. There have been some hit by enemy tanks that disabled the Abrams but the Army claims credit for the kill by saying they destroyed it themselves to prevent it from falling into enemy hands. To me that's the same as the enemy destroying it since if they damage it so badly that we have to blow it up ourselves then the end result is the same.

Agreed, they are just being ***** about the semantics. God forbid anyone ever manages to reveal that America isn't all-powerful and unstoppable. Tch, yeah right. Like that will ever happen.

[Natasha]

Hm. Thanks, Lobo.

Ziggurat the Eternal, I simply didn't know the details previous to OIF. I was told it was all friendly fire. And you've missed the mark about me and my feelings about the US, but this isn't the forum to discuss it.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

Hm. Thanks, Lobo.

Ziggurat the Eternal, I simply didn't know the details previous to OIF. I was told it was all friendly fire. And you've missed the mark about me and my feelings about the US, but this isn't the forum to discuss it.

I don't even know what OIF stands for, and that was a bit of dark humor.
It was meant as sarcasm, and a crack at the beliefs of our leaders, and those in politics who don't have a solid knowledge of how militaries function. I apologize if I have offended you, as I did not in any way mean to target you. I am an American, and support our country and our troops, and am proud of it.

But dealing with the original topic at hand, I have always liked the GAW equiptment, but with the revisions I have made with my game-world, they simply aren't good enough for anything but militias for small cities, and the like. I don't want to say I run a High-powered campaign, but I'll admit that my military vehicles and robots are much more threatening than those presented as written. I think the ones with high MDC values mentioned earlier would be cool, and I would use them as custom upgraded orders for Mercenary Companies and whatnot. Too bad I can't find them.

[Natasha]

Hm. Thanks, Lobo.

Ziggurat the Eternal, I simply didn't know the details previous to OIF. I was told it was all friendly fire. And you've missed the mark about me and my feelings about the US, but this isn't the forum to discuss it.

I don't even know what OIF stands for, and that was a bit of dark humor.
It was meant as sarcasm

Alright.
OIF = Operation Iraqi Freedom.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

Hm. Thanks, Lobo.

Ziggurat the Eternal, I simply didn't know the details previous to OIF. I was told it was all friendly fire. And you've missed the mark about me and my feelings about the US, but this isn't the forum to discuss it.

I don't even know what OIF stands for, and that was a bit of dark humor.
It was meant as sarcasm

Alright.
OIF = Operation Iraqi Freedom.

The recent one? I thought they had a different name for that. Not that I can recall it.........

Anyways I didn't know that our Abrams hadn't been taken out till then, thats kinda cool. Though I do recall the Abrams being Pretty BA from what I learned in those 4 years of ROTC.

[Natasha]

Abrams is some kind of code word for badass. It's illegal knowledge, so be careful.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

Abrams is some kind of code word for badass. It's illegal knowledge, so be careful.

I'll keep that on the down low, no need to worry bout me.








HEY RATBASTARD, did you know Abrams is code for BadAss!?!

[keir451]

Abrams is some kind of code word for badass. It's illegal knowledge, so be careful.

Sorry guys I kinda got us off thread w/ my discussion of the Abrams, as per MD Snipers I basically follow my interpretation of some of Kevins rules, i.e. Starships hull armor MDC per x feet and apply it to body armor and some power armors on a case by case basis. That allows snipers to potentialy kill a soldier in MD body armor. 'Course the rule swings both ways, if you can do it to them they can do it to you as well . Thats my thoughts on the subject

[Killer Cyborg]

What i'm lamenting is that a MD sniper can't take out an MD foot soldier the way a SDC sniper can take out an SDC foot soldier.

Welcome to a world where defense is potentially more effective than offense.
Things change, and strategies that work with one level of technology in one environment don't necessarily work with the next level of technology in a different environment.

If the GM so desires he/she could assign MDC values per sq. in. of the armor allowing for a shot to penetrate and kill the wearer.

If the GM so desires, he/she could turn MDC armor into Fruity Pebbles.
What of it...?

As a GM I have had to rule in many cases that MD body armor CAN be penetrated by a called shot to say the eye piece of old CS armor (for example) because in my mind the eye piece had a limited am't of MDC (reasonable modifiers to hit were applied), player in question rolled a nat 20 w/a JA-11 sniper rifle, I had to give him the kill. Also if a Starship in Robotech or Phase World can have MDC per X number of feet on it's hull, then the same principle can be applied to body/ power armor or a supernatural being.

I repeat:
What of it?

[Killer Cyborg]

I repeat:
What of it?

So in his game world the balance of offense/defense is not quite what you describe.

In his game world.

Now if you say "What of it?" again, you'll get a thwacking.

Can I say "that's got jack-all to do with the posts he was responding to, and I'm wondering if there was a relevant point in there, or if he's just wandering in with random trivia"...?

And extremely "no duh" trivia at that.
I'm pretty sure that everybody here already knows that GMs are able to make house rules to do whatever they want.

[Killer Cyborg]

KC doesn't care about anyone's world but his.

It's all my world; I just let you live here.



BTW, you owe be a lot of back-rent.

[Natasha]

Somebody hacked Killer Cyborg's keyboard.

[Killer Cyborg]

Certainly you can say those things. You should also punctuate them with a "And get off my lawn!" to add to that old-time-poster theme, too.

If I had room, I'd just add it to my tagline.

But seriously, I'm just trying to defuse the back and forth so the thread can survive without getting locked.

I've said what I've had to say, and don't see any need to continue that bit unless other people do.
The entire line of conversation is pretty pointless, which has been my point.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

Certainly you can say those things. You should also punctuate them with a "And get off my lawn!" to add to that old-time-poster theme, too.

If I had room, I'd just add it to my tagline.

But seriously, I'm just trying to defuse the back and forth so the thread can survive without getting locked.

I've said what I've had to say, and don't see any need to continue that bit unless other people do.
The entire line of conversation is pretty pointless, which has been my point.

Then let this be the official NOT-LOCKED-COUNT +1 for this thread.

[Killer Cyborg]

Certainly you can say those things. You should also punctuate them with a "And get off my lawn!" to add to that old-time-poster theme, too.

If I had room, I'd just add it to my tagline.

But seriously, I'm just trying to defuse the back and forth so the thread can survive without getting locked.

I've said what I've had to say, and don't see any need to continue that bit unless other people do.
The entire line of conversation is pretty pointless, which has been my point.

Then let this be the official NOT-LOCKED-COUNT +1 for this thread.

Yeah... that helps the conversation drop....

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

Certainly you can say those things. You should also punctuate them with a "And get off my lawn!" to add to that old-time-poster theme, too.

If I had room, I'd just add it to my tagline.

But seriously, I'm just trying to defuse the back and forth so the thread can survive without getting locked.

I've said what I've had to say, and don't see any need to continue that bit unless other people do.
The entire line of conversation is pretty pointless, which has been my point.

Then let this be the official NOT-LOCKED-COUNT +1 for this thread.

Yeah... that helps the conversation drop....

Sorry, I'm having trouble taking reality seriously today. I won't intrude on anymore Serios Biznis.

[keir451]

Sniping w/ any conventional Rifts weapon is always possible, as far getting a one shot one kill, that depends on what weapon you use AND where you aim. For Dino's going for the Eye or the ear could produce auto kills. Against armored personnel aiming for the face plate or joint or eye piece work as well and they can all be considered "canon" by the rules as every piece of armor has an MDC value, it's just that sometimes you and your GM have to figure out wht thae value is. Good sniping!

With respect to those who disagree w/me, I appreciate your opinions so long as they are not in the form of "Is this guy stupid ?", feel free to state your differences clearly and concisely and I will treat them w/ the respect due. Do not and I will simply ignore them. I, too do not want this or any other thread locked but the insults are getting tiring.

[Malakai]

A friend was interested in trying to make a Sniper-Character for Rifts and, after working things through with him, I came across this Thread.

Best weapon (non-Naruni) we found was the JA-12, for it's pulse capability Here's my reasoning for it:

+3 Strike: Mounted an Optical Sight with Laser Targeting, Thermo-Imaging, Passive Night Vision, And Telescopic Sight
+2 Strike: Sniper Skill (Given that it is counted as a single, heavy blast according to RUE 361)
+2 Strike: Aimed, Called Shot Your Sniping - take your time.
+1-9 Strike: WP & H2H (only Applies to 2nd level and up, can get as high as +7, +9 if H2H: Assassin is taken)
=======
+7-16 Strike total, depending on level and skills
+3-8 Strike total when doing burst (Yes, you still only get half your Strike Bonus)
-1-+4 Strike total when doing a burst and aiming at the head of a stationary target
-3-+2 Strike total when shooting a burst at a running target taking evasive action (less than 70 MPH)

Now, while you may look at that and go "crap, how am I supposed to hit anyone like that?" remember that in order to dodge your fire, your enemies have to A)Know they are being shot at and B)see their attacker. That last one is really important, and really helps the role of the Sniper, because they will likely be very well hidden.

So, since you need at least an 8 to hit, you are going to be hitting your mark at least half the time (even when shooting at a running, evasive target), doing 1D6x10+10 each time. That's 20-70 MDC, average of 45, per shot. This will slag most helmets with "one shot" (Burst), even the heavier ones 1/3rd the time. And if you want to make sure to take them out, try a different tactic: Blow off their arms! The most their arms are going to have is 30 MDC for nearly all Body Armor, which means completely gone on the first hit over 80% of the time.

Really, the major problem to the Sniper is the damnable G.I. Joe Rule - no matter what happens, the guy inside the armor is fine and dandy once it get's blown away. Unless this rule is ignored or mitigated (say, by ruling that it doesn't apply to specific locations, since the "armor" wasn't totally reduced to 0), you will NEVER have a One-Shot against someone in MDC Armor. I mean, if you consider it, the guy who got sniped in the head for 50 MD just got his helmet effectively melted/blown off of his face - why wouldn't that cause some damage to the wearer?

Now, for all those who say that Lasers are visible, I ask - the following questions/comments:

1. Where is it said they are visible?
2. Why, if they are so easy to see and trace through the air, are they used in practically all "Assassin" Weapons?
3. In relation to the artist renderings, consider that the beams may be shown for the viewer's benefit, to show what is causing the damage (as opposed to them just blowing up when the gun is pointed at them), or that some of the weapons may not be specifically lasers.
4. The speed at which the laser fires is high enough that it is likely the beam, if in the visible range, would not be seen. After all, as someone has pointed out, the bullet is in the barrel of the gun longer than the beam exists, and you can't see it as it flies to the target

[Shark_Force]

assassin explicitly gives a small bonus to combat using guns. it is separate from the regular strike bonus, and isn't very large, iirc (might be +2 or +3 by the time you hit level 15).

[Malakai]

Hey - was revisting some material for a game I'm running, and came across something that may help the Sniper in Rifts, at least with hitting their target more often

Sorry for getting in this so late - but yeah, there's an easy and cannon-legal way fro smart guns in Palladium: Head-jacks!

**Note: I use rules from HU 2ed and Aliens Unlimited Galaxy Guide - since this setting was mentioned in the PW2 Sourcebook, I Consider such still legal and fitting the spirit of the question at hand**

Finding the rules is a little difficult, but if you've got Aliens Unlimited: Galaxy Guide or Rifter #2 (Cyberjacking across the Megaverse) you're good to go. Alas, strict GMs may not allow such, as this grabs rules from HU2ed, but there's no reason they could not be implemented using the proper skills and materials. Here's one that I've put together, pulling rules from various sources:

+1 Strike (Burst only) - Recoil Diminishers (HU GM's Guide, page 207)
+2 Aimed, +1 Burst - High-Tech Weapons Sight (HU 2ed, page 125)
+1 Strike - Targeting Sight from Multi-Optics (Linked with the above Weapons sights)
+2-6 Strike - Head-Jack (AU: GG, page 207-8) - applies when linked to targeting computers, as stated on the bottom left of that page
+0-8 Strike - IQ Bonus (AU: GG, page 207) - Treat IQ as PP for purposes of determining Strike Bonus - added thanks to Head-Jack
===============
+5-17 Strike with both aimed and burst, plus normal WP and weapon Balance bonuses !!!

All is book legal, and all could be done by a person with Electrical and Weapon Engineering, Optics, and Computer Programming. Benefits from normal Scope are the Head-jack bonuses and bonuses to Burst-firing (bringing it equal to an aimed shot under normal rules and adding +2 after it's halved to RUE) This also means that your expert snipers with a "smart-linked" gun are also those with a high IQ, not a high PP.



Heck, for the cheesetacular, you could have the following Palladium-legal Uber-Sniper Smart-Gun user
Hardware: Weapons and Electrical Genius, 30 IQ
======================
+1 Strike (Burst only) - Recoil Diminishers (HU GM's Guide, page 207)
+2 Aimed, +1 Burst - High-Tech Weapons Sight (HU 2ed, page 125)
+1 Strike - Targeting Sight from Multi-Optics (Linked with the above Weapons sights)
+3 Strike - Head-Jack (AU: GG, page 207-8) - applies when linked to targeting computers, as stated on the bottom left of that page. Electrical Geniuses Also get +1 to all combat rolls when cyberjacking
+8 Strike - IQ Bonus (AU: GG, page 207) - Treat IQ as PP for purposes of determining Strike Bonus - added thanks to Head-Jack
+2 Strike (Aimed shot only) - Sniper Skill
+1 Strike (Aimed shot only) - well-balanced weapon
======================
+17 Strike on an Aimed Shot !! At level 1!!!

Given the above, getting a head-jack and linking it to a targeting computer and scope would definitely help the MD Sniper hit their mark more often, and allow them to make normal called shots, without missing their targets too much - bring in the burst firing !

[Shark_Force]

Hey - was revisting some material for a game I'm running, and came across something that may help the Sniper in Rifts, at least with hitting their target more often
[snip]
Given the above, getting a head-jack and linking it to a targeting computer and scope would definitely help the MD Sniper hit their mark more often, and allow them to make normal called shots, without missing their targets too much - bring in the burst firing !

why stop there, you're a weapons expert... make it into a pistol and dual-wield.

[Shark_Force]

Hey, while we're at it, why don't we just make it a finger-blaster type weapon and have 4 of them on each hand?

no surgery skills, and if you get an NPC to do it your GM will probably have the doc chop off your hands

[jaymz]

*snippage of a lot of things*

Ok, First, the Abrams HAS been statted for SDC use in Systems Failure. has 1500 SDC and an AR of 18 I beleive.

Personally, while I agree that MDC is technologically advanced over SDC 100-1 is just plain silly. It made sense for Robotech with Alien tech involved, but realy makes no sense in a setting where tech did in fact, even thru scietific discoveries and leaps, evolve from present day tech without any alien tech influence. 10-1 would make more sense and also expain how humans in the middle of nowhere with nly sdc weapons managed to survive against anythign MDC that showed up. Otherwise the entire human population should still be near extinction which itis not

As for Sniping, I base the damage a limb or location can take using Body armour as a sample. Using those percentages as a basis you can tailor it to different body types and races.

Add to that I use the Ranged Combat Training out of one of the Rifters that treats ranged combat similar to HTH combat with a leveled system and Sniping does become more useable, plausible and deadly.

[jaymz]

Actually that seems appropriate for the setting and lack of manpower in most respects.

Makes a single sniper a sniper squad. I like it.

On a side note I always wondered why the sniper rifles were so underpowered overall. Where is the heavy rail rifle sniper weapon akin to a barret?

[jaymz]

Well I came up with a C-40RS

Basic rifle with an eclip/ammo clip combo. Longer thicker heavier slug. Semi auto, no bursts possible.

Damage was 5d6 per round BUT uses the armour piercing rules for missile out of RUE so it could do double to triple damage depending on die rolls.

Essenially the Rifts version of the madern day Barret AMR