What are Hounds?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Are they a kind of living being, or a very, very advanced Golem?

I've always veiwed them as the latter.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Both, apparently.

[Stattick]

I'm thinking either golem, or something in-between. I've never really considered them to be a normal biological beings. But, apparently they do have blood. But I wouldn't think that they do normal biological things - eat, reproduce, expel waste, etc.

[drewkitty ~..~]

They are an advanced golem with a limited IQ and sence of self.

[Jefffar]

Well, until they were described as having blood I considered them to be shells containing the essence of some kind of slain being forced to serve the Nightlords in perpetuity.

Perhaps they have some connection to the 66.67% of humans on this planet who don't have a doppleganger.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Strictly speaking they are living things. If you read the Guardian description you will notice that they are capable of feeling fear and running away (and yes, this means they roll against horror factor).

I'd imagine that the best way to think of them would be like an insect, with the exoskeleton being metallic (complete with gooey insides going by the other descriptions I've read in the books).

A more specific definition leads to a bit of a mess in Nightbane. The best answer is implied by the Nemisis R.C.C.; and that simply is that the Hounds are Nightlands reflections of your typical real-world grunts and troopers. Those guys having one of these instead of a Doppleganger.

It's a mess, yes... but it's the best way to work it.

I think I read something at one time about humans being transformed into hounds in The Nightlands, but alas I can't find it, and do not remember where I read it.

The bottom line is, they are living things. Golems/Darkgolems is inaccurate even though its what you might guess from their appearance. While they don't look anything like insects that seems to be the best analogy to their state of being given all the information (look like metal statues that bleed if you manage to pierce them).


>>>----Therumancer--->

.....


Wow, Theru. Not only do you manage to make a good deal of sense, you did so in under a page length. I'm impressed

[Nekira Sudacne]

Vampires have already been classified. Undead. Nither alive nor a construction.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I hereby stand corrected. Curse my limited Palladium library!

Curses I say!

*bows*

This is my Post Fu. And it is strong.

[Nekira Sudacne]

*bows*

I am a most unworthy student.

Post, Posting is the first step, you have yet to post enough to evaluate your skill.

[Nekira Sudacne]

*bows*

I am a most unworthy student.

Post, Posting is the first step, you have yet to post enough to evaluate your skill.

Number of posts and functional knowledge of Palladium rules are not mutually inclusive.

that's why I said he needed to post more so we could EVALUATE his knowlage

[Nekira Sudacne]

I have ran across some information on this subject before. It was posted that the Nightlords had the slaves who were mining the dark metal spend all their time with a particular cart of ore. That ore was mined, smelted, and poured into a mold of the hound, at which time the slaves who had survived to this stage were sacrificed.

All the while the slaves were dieing with their cart of ore, the released PPE was absorbed by it. In the final stages, the sacrificed slaves gave life to the hound with their death.

This kinda strikes me as the way a rune or artifact item is created with the imbuement of a life force (in this case more than one). But it is the mixture of the metal with the released PPE that brings them to life. After that they are fully functional and living things.

At least according to the article I read. Not sure if this helps, but I thought it was interesting enough to mention.

You sure that isn't on a fan sight?

because I know that sure as hell isn't in one of the nightbane books.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I have ran across some information on this subject before. It was posted that the Nightlords had the slaves who were mining the dark metal spend all their time with a particular cart of ore. That ore was mined, smelted, and poured into a mold of the hound, at which time the slaves who had survived to this stage were sacrificed.

All the while the slaves were dieing with their cart of ore, the released PPE was absorbed by it. In the final stages, the sacrificed slaves gave life to the hound with their death.

This kinda strikes me as the way a rune or artifact item is created with the imbuement of a life force (in this case more than one). But it is the mixture of the metal with the released PPE that brings them to life. After that they are fully functional and living things.

At least according to the article I read. Not sure if this helps, but I thought it was interesting enough to mention.

You sure that isn't on a fan sight?

because I know that sure as hell isn't in one of the nightbane books.

*Points up* Didn't I just ask that?

No, you asked him where it was. I asked him where it wasn't

[Nekira Sudacne]

I have ran across some information on this subject before. It was posted that the Nightlords had the slaves who were mining the dark metal spend all their time with a particular cart of ore. That ore was mined, smelted, and poured into a mold of the hound, at which time the slaves who had survived to this stage were sacrificed.

All the while the slaves were dieing with their cart of ore, the released PPE was absorbed by it. In the final stages, the sacrificed slaves gave life to the hound with their death.

This kinda strikes me as the way a rune or artifact item is created with the imbuement of a life force (in this case more than one). But it is the mixture of the metal with the released PPE that brings them to life. After that they are fully functional and living things.

At least according to the article I read. Not sure if this helps, but I thought it was interesting enough to mention.

You sure that isn't on a fan sight?

because I know that sure as hell isn't in one of the nightbane books.

*Points up* Didn't I just ask that?

No, you asked him where it was. I asked him where it wasn't

Fine, let me amend my question to this.

Got canon proof?

Good question

*also waits for the answer*

[Nekira Sudacne]

not in any of the books. but like so many other discussions here on the boards, with the lack of canon information, we are left to fill in the holes as best we can. For the one who created the article, the holes were filled in a fairly logical manner and one that seems consitant with the attitude of the Nightlords.

But it is still all a matter of interpretation and what conclusions we, the readers and players, can draw from it.

Ah, found the article in question

Hound Production and Slave Usage
From the books, it is known that Moloch commands at least 250,000 Hounds. It is also known that some (perhaps 2% of all Nightlords), primarily Viceroys, can each command up to 50,000 or more. I assume that the next 10% have perhaps 10,000 each, 25% have 5,000 each, 50% have only 2,500 each and the remaining 13% have only around 1,000 Hounds each. In addition, there are smaller numbers of Hounds in the services of each Prince and Avatar who have been chosen to rule a city, ranging from 10,000 for some of the most powerful Avatars to only 100 for the weakest Prince who rules a small city. Putting it all together, there are perhaps 4 million Hounds, total, between the Nightlands and Earth. In addition there are Hunters (perhaps 400,000) and Hound Masters (perhaps 250,000), and Great Hounds (perhaps 4,000).

If, prior to Dark Day, a Hound could "live" for an average of 100 years before being destroyed in battle, and Hound Masters and Great Hounds were more likely to survive perhaps 250 years on average, that means the Nightlords have to be able to produce at least 40,000 new Hounds per year, 4,000 Hunters, 1,000 Hound Masters, and 16 Great Hounds. Each day they must produce 125 Hounds/Hunters/Masters, and every three weeks they must produce 1 Great Hound. That is a significant number of supernatural creatures, but it also means that under the stresses of long term conflict the Nightlords probably could not replace their servants as fast as they would be destroyed.

According to the books, there needs to be raw ore to produce Hounds, and much of the ore has been used up over the millenia in Europe and Asia, so North America currently produces a disproportionate number of Hounds (about 40%), and Magog seems to be the largest single producer of Hounds in the world. However, in addition to ore, it requires at least a dozen human or awakened doppleganger life forces to forge a Hound, which gives the larger, more established Nightlands cities in Europe and Asia a bargaining chip. Given the value of human slaves as breeders and food supply, it has historically been almost entirely dopplegangers who have been sacrificed to create Hounds. Thus there is a constant flow of doppleganger slaves (who won't be awakened until they reach the forge) from Europe and Asia to the Americas, and a similar (if smaller) flow of Hounds and Hunters returning in the opposite direction. I decided that Typhoon produces 10% of the total new Hounds, and the rest of the midwest US another 10%, Doom's Harbor 2% and the rest of the northeast US 8%, the southern US 2%, the Rockies 5%, and the west coast of the US 3%, Africa builds 20%, Central and South America builds 15%, Asia 15% and Europe 10%.

Have to say though, he made a sudden and entirely illogical jump from ore from hounds to humans for hounds

[Nekira Sudacne]

Interesting, though I was under the impression awakening for dopplegangers wasn't something one can do like turning on a light.

It does mention the nightlords have the power to awaken Dopplegangers in the nightland.

this tells us two things:

1. it IS possible
2. It's so difficult only the Nightlords can do it apparently.
3. That means whatever process is going to require the nightlords personal attention, which means it'd better have a reason for it

[Nekira Sudacne]

The awakening of a doppleganger is done by psionic stimulation and torture. Nearly a direct quote from the NB main book. Just because they are brought before the Nightlord does not necessarily mean the NL are the only ones capable of waking them up. It would appear, to me at least, that anyone capable of wielding the telekinesis powers of the Ba'al has the potential to awaken a Doppleganger. That does not tell me that the NL are the only ones who have the power.

Have to say though, he made a sudden and entirely illogical jump from ore from hounds to humans for hounds

I dont see the illogical step. It is cheaper to import slaves and breeding stock from the Old World to the New World mines and smelters than it is to awaken several hundred Dopplegangers to imbue the raw ore with the PPE and such needed for the creation of a hound.

Remember, this is not canon. But it does show a way for the creation of the hounds and the need for an increase in slave labor. The current battles have been most costly to the NL. The need to replenish their forces in the past was not quite as pressing and necessary as they are today.

Oh you don't get me wrong. Oh sure, it's cheeper to use human slaves than dopplegangers to be sure. but there's absolutly no reason to beleive that humans BECOME hounds, which is what he's saying.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Not becoming hounds, suffusing the darkmetal with their deaths. PPE doubles ot the moment of deaath, working with the metal from the mines to the forge shows a cruel torture and gives the hounds their sadistic nature. Imprinting the darker emotions and sense of hopeless devotion to a project for fear of death gives a certain drive to any living thing. The PPE release on the death of a slave is absorbed by the metal, giving life.

I see it as a Frankenstein mass production.

That's a theory I can agree with, but that's not what the article in question actually said.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Look beyond the literal word and interpret. This is what I understood his article to mean.

As I stated earlier, it struck me as a similar fashion to the creation of an artifact ot rune weapon. Giving life to a chunk of metal through forced sacrifice.

I guess you could read it that way, but that's not what it actually says.

Really, having read more than just that, I find said article to have some very good ideas, but written rather poorly.

[Sir_Spirit]

I think the hounds, great hounds and hunters are/were weaker enslaved Lost Ones, whose stronger brethren elude(to this day) capture by the Nightbanes, and escaped to earth to become Nightspawn.
That's my opinion.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Do you have anything in print on any of the subjects you discuss and debate other than here on the boards?

I would like to see some of them for a comparison.

If I remember correctly, the article was written when the only book in print was the main (possibly Between the Shadows) What information that was available then has changed significantly since then

The Nightlands book increased the information on the Ba'al by quite a bit, of course, it still didn't really define where Hounds came from either.

[NMI]

there is that one group of USA grunts that feed on the "blood" of hounds? I believe its mentioned in either Between the Shadows or Nightlands.

[runebeo]

I.R.S. men from hell. Here to collect your soul & steal your remote.

[Misfit KotLD]

there is that one group of USA grunts that feed on the "blood" of hounds? I believe its mentioned in either Between the Shadows or Nightlands.

Nightlands. Cortez's Cannibals.

[Rallan]

how did this turn from an argument on the physical and spiritual status of a Hound to babbling about posting, anyway?

How did it turn from a dead thread that was about to celebrate three years of peaceful rest into a shambling zombie thread?

[BookWyrm]

[inscrutible]What is Post-Fu compared to the hand that weilds it?[/inscrutible]

Indeed, Post-Fu can be both scalpel or sword, hammer or nail, informative and enlightening or vicious and cruel. *bows*

But getting back to the original thread, I believe that the Hounds are semi-living creatures that have been corrupted by the Nightlords into a kind of cannon-fodder disposable army, that they somehow are able to allow to re-produce in significant (but controlled) quantities.

[Specter]

If Bane in my games ever made it far enough into the nightland's to discover the forges that create the Hounds.... they would find them to be made. Otherwise I leave it just as much a mystery as it is writen in the books.

[Marrowlight]

I just wanna know why there's all these responses to posts Misfit made, but no posts from Misfit (back in 2006 anyway, I see his 2009 post).

[Misfit KotLD]

I just wanna know why there's all these responses to posts Misfit made, but no posts from Misfit (back in 2006 anyway, I see his 2009 post).

Reg.

[Rallan]

Hounds/Great Hounds are golemish enough...

I'm more interested in what Hound Masters are. What with their illusionish psychic powers somewhat similar to Night Princes and sentience that leads them to actually rebel from the Nightlords (something never done by mere Hounds).

Right, since we're on topic again...

PROBLEM SOLVED!

"They are believed to be magical constructs, similar to the golems of legend. Unlike golems, however, Hounds do feel emotions and have lusts and desires. Regrettably, those desires are all related to pain and fear. Hounds live for the hunt and slaughter." - main book description of Hounds. The section on Hunters says they're much the same as Hounds emotionally.

"Unlike typical Hounds, the Masters are capable of speech, although they usually limit themselves to giving orders, cursing, or intimidating victims." - main book description of Hound Masters. It also notes that some Masters betray their superiors, either by offering their services to another Nightlord, or occasionally by just going AWOL and spending all their time hunting people for sport. Even says some of them are smart enough to run violent street gangs (which I assume they do by staying disguised as a human).

So there we have it. They're probably artificially created, but they're living, thinking, beings with real emotions. It's just that Hunters and Hounds have subhuman intelligence, and even the dangerously clever Hound Masters (roughly human intelligence) are insanely violent psychopaths who live for violence and are only kept in check by fear of their masters and the promise of more bloodshed. Doesn't say much about the personality of Great Hounds, but since they're mainly on bodyguard detail and their only combat role seems to be as shock troops in major battles, I'm guessing they're created/bred to have a fanatical loyalty that their lesser brethren lack.

All in all, not the sort of minion you want to have around unless you're strong enough to occasionally rip one in half as an object lesson to the rest

[Warwolf]

"Unlike typical Hounds, the Masters are capable of speech, although they usually limit themselves to giving orders, cursing, or intimidating victims."

Thank you for that. I knew I had to have gotten the fact that normal hounds are mute from somewhere, I just couldn't remember where.

[GlitterKnight]

I'm not sure Hounds are alive, truly. The vampire section in the core book mentions that Hounds have no blood, thus they cannot be fed upon.

I also forgot Hounds are mute, which changes things somewhat. Clearly, the Hounds are created by the Nightlords; whether they are constructs like golems or not is debatable. They are manufactured though; their exoskeletal armor is made of Darksteel, mined and forged, and apparantly, imprinted with human and Doppelganger misery and suffering.

I think Hounds are a synthetic creation of the Nightlords, probably reliant on the sacrifice of human PPE. Though probably instead of sacrficing a human slave and getting all the PPE at once, they work them to death in the mines so the Darkmetal ore absorbs the energy given off by their PPE and their minds/ISP, charging the metal and allowing the Nightlords to use their powers over matter and energy to create the Hound body and imbue it with motive power and intelligence. Though the Hounds aren't particularly intelligent are they? I'd say their as smart as sadistic chimps.

[Jefffar]

I'm not sure Hounds are alive, truly. The vampire section in the core book mentions that Hounds have no blood, thus they cannot be fed upon.

I also forgot Hounds are mute, which changes things somewhat. Clearly, the Hounds are created by the Nightlords; whether they are constructs like golems or not is debatable. They are manufactured though; their exoskeletal armor is made of Darksteel, mined and forged, and apparantly, imprinted with human and Doppelganger misery and suffering.

I think Hounds are a synthetic creation of the Nightlords, probably reliant on the sacrifice of human PPE. Though probably instead of sacrficing a human slave and getting all the PPE at once, they work them to death in the mines so the Darkmetal ore absorbs the energy given off by their PPE and their minds/ISP, charging the metal and allowing the Nightlords to use their powers over matter and energy to create the Hound body and imbue it with motive power and intelligence. Though the Hounds aren't particularly intelligent are they? I'd say their as smart as sadistic chimps.

Except that Cortez's Cannibals (Nightlands book) regularly dine on Hound's blood.