Combat Question (Guns)

[MaxxSterling]

Hey, I'm finding this game to be awefully deadly for my characters because the zombies are superhuman... I've noticed that the weapon rate of fire rules differ in this game, from my Rifts main book. Anyhow, my question involves shooting. In one action, not one melee, how many rounds can be fired from a pistol? Is it just one, and I'm talking either double-action revolver or semi-auto pistol. And as far as shotguns, same question regarding pump-actions. Is is just 1 shot per action? I think I'm reading the rules correctly, but I'm used to dealing with death ray's, starships and spells of legend, so this whole realistical low-power thing is tripping me up. When I don't see at least triple digit damage on a single roll these days, I get confused.

[wildhood]

Use the rules your use in Rifts or go back & read the book. If you are shooting more than one round that would be a burst so you should use the burst rules on pgs 179-181.

[J. Lionheart]

Indeed, burst/spray rules are what you want.

They aren't heavily covered in DR, due to the style of the writing, but basically you can fire up to half the mag from an automatic weapon in a single action, or the entire mag in two actions. You lose a huge amount of accuracy and there are lots of wasted bullets, but it does allow multiple shots. Bursts are single target attacks, sprays are area attacks.

Don't hold me to this, but I think it's something like:

"Short Bursts" are 20% of a mag, x2 damage. "Long Bursts" are 50% of a mag, x5 damage, and entire mag burst takes 2 attacks, and is x10 damage.

"Short Spray" is 50% of a mag, normal damage to all targets in area (if hit), entire mag spray takes 2 attacks, and is x2 damage to all targets in area (if hit).

Double check with your local GM.

[Robroy]

In my groups game the GM is allowing any semi-auto weapon a three round burst but at a -1, because you are pulling the trigger three times.

[MaxxSterling]

Thanks for the input. I really would have liked to have seen more out of these books...

[mrloucifer]

The overlook may have something to do that Dea Reign was orignally designed as a sourcebook to BTS. I would encourage you to get the BTS book as it holds all the combat rules and such.

[vika]

In my groups game the GM is allowing any semi-auto weapon a three round burst but at a -1, because you are pulling the trigger three times.

I think the first shot should have no penalty.

[MaxxSterling]

Yeah, it's ruff. I'm been struggling along with the rolls. But, whatever. Once my campaign is over, this is likely a game I'll never play again, it'll be thrown into my WOW rpg and AD&D book pile, never to be opened again. And then I'll get back to what we all want to play anyhow, RIFTS!!!! Yay!!!!

[azazel1024]

Meh, I change up the rules a little, especially when it comes to head shots. Afterall needing a natural 19 or 20 is just ridiculous. At long range maybe, but come on, anyone with good training can easily put every round in an 8 inch diameter target from 15ft.

I go with a point blank, short, medium, long and extreme range system. I use this with basically all combat systems for any RPG (unless the system already has one).

I break it out as such, 5%/25%/50%/100%/150%.

So point blank is anything 5% and under the maximum range, short range is anything 5-25% of the maximum range, medium is 25-50%, long range is 50-100% and extreme is 100-150% of maxium effective range. Example, a pistol with a 150ft range would have distances of 7.5/37.5/75/150/225ft and a rifle with a maximum effective range of 2,000ft would have 100/500/1,000/2,000/3,000ft.

I have point blank having a +2 to strike and +20% damage (for kinetic and energy weapons, not explosive weapons as range doesn't matter). Short range is unmodified. Medium range is unmodified for an aimed shot, burst and spray is an additional -2 to strike. Long range is -3 to strike on an aimed shot, -7 to strike on burst and spray. Extreme range is -6 to strike on an aimed shot, -10 to strike on a burst or spray and damage is also reduced by -20% unless an explosive weapon.

I feel like this makes things a bit more realistic as with a base roll of 5 or higher to strike is ridiculously low, especially at longer ranges for moving targets (especially when you throw in bonuses to strike). Then again, the chance of making a headshot if that is what you are aiming for is significantly lower then is realistic, especially at shorter ranges. Hence the regular 'aiming for a specific part of something' -5 to strike, but all bonuses apply, not a natural 19 or 20 to hit the head of a zombie.

I find otherwise any of the actual swarming by zeds = dead players pretty quickly. Any kind of 'in the city' work means that the instant a zombie is cited the players have to hop on their bikes or in their cars and floor it out of there all the while praying. Groups of a dozen or so are managable for my 3 players, but more quickly find them getting dead (or nearly so). I don't intend for my players to squat in the center of Atlanta and duke it out with thousands...but being able to take on a smallish swarm of several dozen seems realistic to me with some good training, decent weapons and team work. As it stands with the headshot rules as they are that means blazing through ammo and possibly ending up dead anyway, hence the modified rules.
-Matt

[jedi078]

Palladium doesn’t have and never has had good rules for firearms. The RUE/BTS-2 WP burst bonus rules are even worse then the older rule sets. How do you divide 1 by two to get a whole number? You can’t. The old +3 aimed +1 burst rules worked better IMO. I will say the most of the firearms bonuses and penalties (aimed shot, called shot etc) were a good addition.

Now lets look at the WP’s themselves.

At least we got WP handguns which combines revolvers and auto pistols. Smart move and it makes sense because if you can use a auto-pistol you can use a revolver.

But what about rifles and submachine guns? Both a rifle and submachine gun work off the same principle, the only difference is the round chambered. Rifle use a rifle round and an SMG uses a pistol round. Anyone who knows how to use a rifle can easily pick up an SMG after a brief familiarization which I might add you have to do with EVERY and ANY weapons you pick up so as to ensure it works properly.

Next up is WP Heavy Military Weapons, which covers several different weapons types. I don’t know see how a person could think that Machinegun, a rocket launcher, and mortar can all be learned as one skill. In fact these need to be dived up into WP Machinegun, WP Grenade Launcher, WP Rocket Launcher, and WP Artillery (applies to mortars).

[Quantum07]

I see the reasoning for seperate WP Rifle and WP Submachine Gun. Someone who is good at a rifle will not be use to the recoil of a submachine gun. Plus a rifle has greater kick, so someone who uses a submachine gun would not be use to such a kick.
As for the WP Heavy Weapons, if someone is trained in one of those, he may have training in the rest. But I see what you are saying there.

[jedi078]

I see the reasoning for separate WP Rifle and WP Submachine Gun. Someone who is good at a rifle will not be use to the recoil of a submachine gun. Plus a rifle has greater kick, so someone who uses a submachine gun would not be use to such a kick.

I've fired both auto-rifles, and SMG's. If you know how to use one, using the other is simple. Both weapons use the same principle to fire a round. Pull trigger, and the blowback will chamber/fire the next round. The only real difference in the operation is that some SMG’s (as well as the Browning Automatic Rifle, which is a rifle) fire from an open bolt as opposed to a closed bolt.

As for the WP Heavy Weapons, if someone is trained in one of those, he may have training in the rest.

I was trained to use a machinegun, and an under barrel grenade launcher (both were separate classes BTW) but never touched a Rocket launcher or mortar, so the 'he may have been trained in the rest' train of thought isn't going to cut it. The use of those weapons is completely different from one another; hence they should be different WP’s.

But I see what you are saying there.

The sad thing is Palladium has a former Marine on their staff (Scott Samson), who is doing Warpath, and has a good knowledge of how modern weapons work. I would have thought some of the modern weapons goofs would have been fixed with him on the staff.

[azazel1024]

As a clarification/correction, few rifles use blowback to chamber a round, they generally are gas operated, using syphoned propellant gases to operate the bolt. Most SMGs and as far as I know all automatic pistols use blowback to chamber a round.

Of course usage wise, this has only a small impact. Mechanically/repair wise it has much more impact.

Heck, using an MG is a lot closer to operating an automatic rifle or SMG then using a mortar or artillery is.
-Matt

[Robroy]

In my groups game the GM is allowing any semi-auto weapon a three round burst but at a -1, because you are pulling the trigger three times.

I think the first shot should have no penalty.

We treat it as a burst, one roll for all three shots

[MaxxSterling]

Thanks for all the input guys, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one struggling with these rules and what to do allow my characters to survive more than 2 zombies at a time.

[azazel1024]

Oh, I also don't do the damage reduction for head shots for small caliber weapons or any weapons for that matter (even a .22 can crack a skull at close range and send bone fragments spalling around if it hits right). They do the damage they do (no extra damage). Zombies might be significantly stronger, but I don't figure their bones have suddenly gotten harder. More SDC, because frankly they don't really notice or are effected by damage as much, but their skulls are just as hard as before. Of course even popping one or two in to their skull might not kill them, afterall it might not kill a real living human being...and I figure a zombie needs a lot less of a functioning brain.

What I want to see is a Barret .50
-Matt

[jedi078]

In my games a head shot would be a death blow but it is simply a called shot at a specific part of the body that would result in instant death (or sure death), such as the head, heart, neck etc, etc, etc. Damage is x3 directly to hit points, and even if you don’t kill the target (you make a low damage roll or they have lots of Hit Points) the target will still be seriously wounded, meaning you can finish them off.

As for a Barret .50 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82 ) it uses the same round as a Browning Machinegun (12.7 x 99 mm), and as such does the same damage. I think the books say something dumb like 7d6 SDC for a single round and 1d8*10 for a short burst, but we are talking about a bullet that is a half inch in diameter. There are a few pics on the internet which showcase what a SINGLE .50 cal round will do to a persons head, and even if you hit an arm or leg they’d bleed out real quick. Thus I go with 1d6*10 per round for damage.

Also since the books state ‘guns are supposed to kill’, so why not make it so and have bullets do half damage to Hit Points and half damage to SDC? Yes this may mean dead PC’s, but it also means dead NPC’s and bad guys too. It also reinforces the face that GUN KILL easily in a modern setting.

[azazel1024]

In my games a head shot would be a death blow but it is simply a called shot at a specific part of the body that would result in instant death (or sure death), such as the head, heart, neck etc, etc, etc. Damage is x3 directly to hit points, and even if you don’t kill the target (you make a low damage roll or they have lots of Hit Points) the target will still be seriously wounded, meaning you can finish them off.

As for a Barret .50 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82 ) it uses the same round as a Browning Machinegun (12.7 x 99 mm), and as such does the same damage. I think the books say something dumb like 7d6 SDC for a single round and 1d8*10 for a short burst, but we are talking about a bullet that is a half inch in diameter. There are a few pics on the internet which showcase what a SINGLE .50 cal round will do to a persons head, and even if you hit an arm or leg they’d bleed out real quick. Thus I go with 1d6*10 per round for damage.

Also since the books state ‘guns are supposed to kill’, so why not make it so and have bullets do half damage to Hit Points and half damage to SDC? Yes this may mean dead PC’s, but it also means dead NPC’s and bad guys too. It also reinforces the face that GUN KILL easily in a modern setting.

Yeah that is what body armor is for. Oh, and tanks. Lots of tanks
-Matt

[jedi078]

Yeah that is what body armor is for. Oh, and tanks. Lots of tanks
-Matt

A .50 cal round will rip right through any body armor known to man. Likewise unless you have SAPI plates (i.e. trauma plates rated to stop rifle rounds), rifle rounds will go through body armor as well.

[Drakenred®™©]

I ditched the old system a long time ago

what we use now is a more or less straight forward system

if you have no training in that weapon class your burst is 5* /10 /20 damage is 1X 2X 3X

if you have "Basic training" in that class of weapons your burst size drops and the damage per burst goes up as you level, and the base damage starts off at 2X 3X 4X

Military level combat training ups that to
3X 4X 5X but for a specific "family' of weapons (Ie M60 machine gun as oposed to just all machine guns) (you have to spend a whole level with that class of machine gun to get that level of skill if you switch to a new family

and specialised combat training (wich also means its with a specific weapon) with that weapon ups it to 4X 5X 6X at base(wich improves) **

* 5 round limmit on semi autos and modified pump and level action weapons

also the burst size is limmited to the practical rof of that weapon, for example if a gun has a rof of 600 rpm /150 rpmelle or 10 rounds per second then usualy the max burst size for a single "action" would be roughly 20 rounds at 5 attacks per melle and drop to 10 rounds per action from 6-10 melle actions and 5 round burst for anything less

** oh and reguarless of your skill and "improved burst level" level you will always "waist" one round of ammo in the burst, and you will always fire at least the minimum damage multiplyer + 1 round of ammo)

[azazel1024]

Yeah that is what body armor is for. Oh, and tanks. Lots of tanks
-Matt

A .50 cal round will rip right through any body armor known to man. Likewise unless you have SAPI plates (i.e. trauma plates rated to stop rifle rounds), rifle rounds will go through body armor as well.

Very true, but, at least in an RPG setting where you generally aren't fighting big battles, well I don't really have that going on in S.D.C. settings, you tend not to have anything heavier then maybe a 7.62x39 or a 5.56x45 being thrown around...which of course is very much lethal, but at least sufficiently heavy body armor with steel or ceramic plates have a hope of stopping them.

A much better hope then an effectively naked human body.

Besides, for 12.7x99 why not wear 30mm hardened steel plates over your cheast...I mean, it probably only weighs 60lbs for a cheast plate

My point really was just, if you have guns in an S.D.C. setting then your PCs better be wearing some sort of body armor or else they really are just dead meat. Even then they are probably going to end up being dead meat.
-Matt

[jedi078]

My point really was just, if you have guns in an S.D.C. setting then your PCs better be wearing some sort of body armor or else they really are just dead meat. Even then they are probably going to end up being dead meat.

Use cover, tactics and so forth and you'll be fine. A good GM can make a game be ultra lethal, but not kill characters left and right.

[vika]

I like it that combat in the Palladium games is something deadly.

Here I agree completely with jedi078.