The point.

[Specter]

Almost since the first time I was interested to roleplaying I've been the GM and have experienced my fair share of game master burn out. This has led me to be grateful to anybody who would GM so that I could get a chance to play. I've over looked what I considered to be sloppy GMing and had to admit that I wasn't the best GM either. Interestingly enough I was asked what the point of an RPG is, "since nobody wins", and then was given a horrible example of what the point was not.

There was once a GM who had players who decide to do some bounty hunting to get money. They want to bring the monk along who has no interest in material possessions. So, we decide to go after someone really bad. Someone that the monk would want to take out for monky reasons.

There were three bounties posted in town square.

1. Guy who rampaged through a village.

2. Guy who has been robbing from the rich and burning down their houses.

3. Guy who has been killing high profile lords and... burned down two orphanages!

So, we take 3 obviously. (later the GM said, I was hoping you wouldn't take that one. What? We weren't supposed to pick the obvious one?) Rumors are that this assasian can take the appearance of the ones that he's killed. So, I suggest checking out the lords in the area to get a good look at their portraits. The bard does some investigating of his own that gave us a strong suspicion that he could bodyjack people. So, we set off in the direction he was rumored to be going.

To draw him out we had the bard sing about the man in a not nice way. While, me the rogue, and the monk held back to strike. Long story short... it isn't long before we are all very frusterated and confused as people in this town keep not being real. And, it turns out there had been no killings, the "guy" spread the rumors himself, and was a trickster god. Every lead we followed had been the god, every person we talked to... so on and so forth. Later after being confronted with the god we finally had to give up. (At which point the GM said that he wished we had given up long ago and that there was no way to accomplish our goals.)

And, that's the point. To get that sense of accomplishment. Players are supposed to have difficulties, but there should always be a way to eventually accomplish the goal set out for them. And, the players will keep trying until a TPK or until the GM pulls a fade to black and lets the players know that the princess is in another castle. Now this is where the gms starts telling us that we didn't ask enough questions. But, what investigations counter a GOD who was telling us any other thing.

Would you say that's the point? Or for you is it the story, the gold and booty, the escapism... don't get me wrong, I love escapism and story but I think I found the point. Of course I never gave it much thought before. I just thought it was fun.

[Killer Cyborg]

And, that's the point. To get that sense of accomplishment. Players are supposed to have difficulties, but there should always be a way to eventually accomplish the goal set out for them. And, the players will keep trying until a TPK or until the GM pulls a fade to black and lets the players know that the princess is in another castle.

Would you say that's the point? Or for you is it the story, the gold and booty, the escapism... don't get me wrong, I love escapism and story but I think I found the point. Of course I never gave it much thought before. I just thought it was fun.

I'd say that there are more than just one point, but you certainly nailed one of the bigger points in playing.
It's why I prefer generally low-level (or low-power) campaigns as a rule.
It's also one reason why I dislike Munchkins- there's no sense of accomplishment for me in beating a lesser foe.

In addition, though, a good part of the point for me is the story itself. The ups and downs, the characters, etc. etc.
I love little more than a good story.

Also, I think a good part of the point is simply to think and to learn. It's about developing tactics and strategies, and about puzzle-solving, and simply pondering What Ifs.

[Noon]

Well, your assuming there is a point, somehow, somewhere. There might not be at all. In which case your inventing the point of the activity.

Really you have to invent your own point. And that also requires you and the group to decide if you want to invent a point to it all, to begin with. You might not.

[Specter]

Everything has a point, otherwise there wouldn't be one.


Agree with you KC. I was just thinking of things that have to be included by the GM and are often time done without realizing. It reminded me of this one game of Hellboy where there was this avatar of kali which I wanted to be a major plot point. And, the characters tried and tried to beat it and eventually hijacked an passenger jet to ram into the thing with. I should have let them kill it when they went to those kinds of messures. I mean it was just an avatar it could be summoned again, but I was dumb and didn't give the satisfaction the players needed. I'm not inventing a point, I just realized what all the bad games I've been part of were missing.

[Noon]

Everything has a point, otherwise there wouldn't be one.

No, I could delibertely use a program to write a hundred random rules and hand it to you. It would have no point - if you started trying to see one, it's purely your invention.

The thing here is that having a vision for how to do things, having an inspiration, is good. It's good to have a new idea and try it. But full on believing you've found how things are done, rather than your own invention, is the stuff of religion.

[Spinachcat]

The point is to have fun! So every group needs to figure out what FUN means for them and focus on doing that. Satisfaction is very important, but what satisfaction means can be quite different to different groups.

The Trickster god thing could have been great fun IF the GM has the skill to weave such a humor/mystery -the Norse tales are full of Loki pulling stunts and the other gods using wisdom to figure out Loki's guises.

[Specter]

Everything has a point, otherwise there wouldn't be one.

No, I could delibertely use a program to write a hundred random rules and hand it to you. It would have no point - if you started trying to see one, it's purely your invention.

The thing here is that having a vision for how to do things, having an inspiration, is good. It's good to have a new idea and try it. But full on believing you've found how things are done, rather than your own invention, is the stuff of religion.

If there isn't a point there would be no point in playing. The point might not have been intentional but is needed or people would stop playing.

[Killer Cyborg]

Everything has a point, otherwise there wouldn't be one.

No, I could delibertely use a program to write a hundred random rules and hand it to you. It would have no point - if you started trying to see one, it's purely your invention.

So the point would be to win an argument with Specter.

[Killer Cyborg]

The point is to have fun! So every group needs to figure out what FUN means for them and focus on doing that.

http://killercyborg.livejournal.com/5351.html

[BookWyrm]

I wholeheartedly agree that RPGs are meant to be fun. If you're not having fun, find another game.

[Killer Cyborg]

I wholeheartedly agree that RPGs are meant to be fun. If you're not having fun, find another game.

They're meant to be fun.
But fun is not the be-all, end-all of gaming.
If you're not having fun for a session or two, that doesn't mean that you're not doing anything worthwhile in those sessions.
Sometimes you have to slog through some tedious or boring parts in order to get to something really good.
Conversely, the degree of fun a person has doesn't necessarily indicate whether they're doing a good job of playing the game. It might just mean that they're really easily amused.

Ideally, gaming should be fun, but it doesn't always have to be, and fun isn't The Point.

[Noon]

Everything has a point, otherwise there wouldn't be one.

No, I could delibertely use a program to write a hundred random rules and hand it to you. It would have no point - if you started trying to see one, it's purely your invention.

So the point would be to win an argument with Specter.

No, I don't have the same motives for posting as you.


Specter, I'm trying to demonstrate you've invented a point to the activity. Which is a good thing - but it turns sour if you then act towards others as if that point is inherently part of the activity, when at the moment it's just an idea so far.

If it somehow doesn't go sour or somehow that point is in the activity and so things wont go sour, that's nice. I doubt it - but if I'm wrong on the sour, then I don't mind as there is no sourness that can happen in that case. If I'm wrong, I'm fine with that because that means there wont be trouble and that's my concern in posting. And if anyone doesn't buy that that is my concern, fair enough. If anyone wants to start telling me what my concerns are as if they know better than I do, they can bog off.

[Spinachcat]

If you're not having fun for a session or two, that doesn't mean that you're not doing anything worthwhile in those sessions. Sometimes you have to slog through some tedious or boring parts in order to get to something really good.

If you are not having fun playing the game, go play something else.

If a GM has tedious and boring parts in his game, then he is doing a poor job as a GM.

And if anybody ever needs to get more out of a RPG than just having fun, then its high time to add some actual challenge to their real lives.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you're not having fun for a session or two, that doesn't mean that you're not doing anything worthwhile in those sessions. Sometimes you have to slog through some tedious or boring parts in order to get to something really good.

If you are not having fun playing the game, go play something else.

Yeah... and if you get in a fight with your girlfriend, dump her and do something else.
And if you don't like your job, quit.
And if you have an unfun day, kill yourself.

Or just play on through until things get better again, and realize that fun isn't the end-all, be-all of existence.

If a GM has tedious and boring parts in his game, then he is doing a poor job as a GM.

Sometimes, yes.
You let me know if you ever find a GM that does a perfect time every time.

And if anybody ever needs to get more out of a RPG than just having fun, then its high time to add some actual challenge to their real lives.

Everybody needs to get more out of a RPG than just having fun.

[Killer Cyborg]

Everything has a point, otherwise there wouldn't be one.

No, I could delibertely use a program to write a hundred random rules and hand it to you. It would have no point - if you started trying to see one, it's purely your invention.

So the point would be to win an argument with Specter.

No, I don't have the same motives for posting as you.

I don't post in order to win arguments with Specter.

Specter, I'm trying to demonstrate you've invented a point to the activity.

Okay, so THAT would be the point, then.

Point is, there IS one- you can't do something that's actually 100% pointless.

[Specter]

Gonna have to agree with KC here, No point in quiting a game because of one bad session or one truly boring grindfest. Now, I like playing so much more than GMing so I don't have any problem groaning through some poorly GMed gaming sessions just to be able to stretch out before going back to GMing.

And, no... I can't think of any GM that has a perfect record. Certainly not myself.


Noon, I may have invented a point, though I very much doubt I'm the first person to look for meaning in a hobby. However, there is no activity without a point. Even if you strive to make up an activity without a point, suddenly the point is to do just that.

[Noon]

So, back to my first post

Well, your assuming there is a point, somehow, somewhere. There might not be at all. In which case your inventing the point of the activity.

Really you have to invent your own point. And that also requires you and the group to decide if you want to invent a point to it all, to begin with. You might not.

Just to clarify, the 'you' in 'you might not' refers to you and your group, as a whole. Some people in the group may not want to invent a point - they just want to play without thinking about points - which doesn't work real well when in it's vanilla state the game is pointless.

Anyway, I was saying your going in as a group - to remain as a group you all need to want the same thing - and that is to invent or flesh out a point to the game, together.