Robotics Power Supply Concept

[Stone Gargoyle]

I am playing with the idea of using a Prismatic Multimode Rechargeable system option for robotics construction which would cost the same as the Super-Solar option, one million cash American.
The disadvantages of the system as conceived is that the energy coils would have to recharge for several hours prior to use and would only remain charged for 12 hours. But the concept is that the coils would recollect the electricity used and recycle it during the 12 hours so power depletion is not based on usage, more on dissipation of energy.
Does this sound like something that would work or are my mechanics off? Any feedback would be helpful.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Well, the main reason for adding one is because there is no rechargeable lithium battery option there, just fuel and then solar recharging and fusion. I wanted something that was rechargeable with electricity, hooked up on a generator to recharge. Hybrid vehicles are set up on this prismatic multimode system, which is one reason for adding it. But you are right, just as easy to modify the solar engine and say it does that if necessary, which is generally what I did without realizing it after reading over the charge limits of the super-solar system.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Rechargeable batteries are really the heart of the rule mods I made to the power systems.... Crunching the numbers back then, I "invented" something called "Quantum Effect" batteries that stored more energy per volume, so that you could run a robot with reasonable features for a while. Glad to see that I wasn't the only one interested in more realistic robots!

I just like having as many options available as possible. Not every robot is going to be one of those four types in the book, and it gets tiresome listing the microfusion power source for every dang blasted android. There are lots of other ways to do it. What about a crank and wind generator option? Forget realistic, I just want some freaking diversity and differences between robots.

[Yukon]

Rechargeable batteries are really the heart of the rule mods I made to the power systems.... Crunching the numbers back then, I "invented" something called "Quantum Effect" batteries that stored more energy per volume, so that you could run a robot with reasonable features for a while. Glad to see that I wasn't the only one interested in more realistic robots!

I just like having as many options available as possible. Not every robot is going to be one of those four types in the book, and it gets tiresome listing the microfusion power source for every dang blasted android. There are lots of other ways to do it. What about a crank and wind generator option? Forget realistic, I just want some freaking diversity and differences between robots.

wind up robot?

[Stone Gargoyle]

I am running a Steampunk style campaign right now, so I am contemplating a set of wind-up and steam powered clockwork robot creation rules. I already statted out a steam gun.

[NMI]

I wouldnt mind seeing something along the lines of say, each power supply type provides a "x" number of energy/power points total. regenerates "x" amount of energy per melee/minute/hour/whatever. Each weapon/feature/etc... costs a certain amount of energy/power points per melee. This could allow for "stunts" like putting more energy into the output of a laser or boosting the range of a sensor,etc...

[Stone Gargoyle]

That would certainly make it more realistic than the way it is now with the engine power supply going for x number of hours. Mephisto did something like that with his battery system in another thread which he recently unburied to add another type of power supply to. It is a shame something cannot be figured out for that. I personally don't know how much power different weapons use or how many hours you can even get on a car battery and don't really know anything as far as actual mechanics. That was one of the reasons I posted this, so I could get ideas on how it cold be improved. I had the concept but don't know the best way to execute it. Are there any books out that would be good to reference in creating a power usage system?

[Gryphon Chick]

I researched this at SG's request.

A lithium battery could be charged up to 500 times if recharged prior to 40% of battery drain, or up to 300 times if charged when totally drained due to wear on the battery. The battery could contain 720 (12 hoursX60 minutes) charge points, with 1 point being used per minute for basic functions. Other applications such as weapons would use a higher number of charge points based on the increased number of amps. Points would recharge at a rate of 180 points per hour, or 3 per minute if going by Gargoyle's specs.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Thank you. Now what we will need to do is figure out the charge points used when weapons are fired and various means of propulsion are used.

[Gryphon Chick]

I suggest using multipliers. Weapons fire usage could be based on damage, with it being one charge point per 1d6 of damage from the weapon. Speed could be one point for the system base speed and an additional point for say every 10 additional points of speed, so going beyond the base speed would increase power usage as speed increased.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I suggest using multipliers. Weapons fire usage could be based on damage, with it being one charge point per 1d6 of damage from the weapon. Speed could be one point for the system base speed and an additional point for say every 10 additional points of speed, so going beyond the base speed would increase power usage as speed increased.

I think that pretty much goes along with what DeificNMI was suggesting.

[Gryphon Chick]

Maybe do double power usage cost for advanced systems use and combat computer and radar, with the cost stacking the more you have on simultaneously.

[Stone Gargoyle]

We should see about doing a full writeup now we have the basics and see how it looks when all is said and done.

[Gryphon Chick]

If we wanted to go with calculating power consumption per melee, we can multiply the charge points by four, getting 2880 charge points to work with. Then you subtract the energy use multiplier based on damage for each attack and you have more to work with.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I like the idea of assigning cost based on points purchased, but I also like the way Gryphon Chick is breaking down hourly usage. If each size battery contains a different amount of timed life, it should be simple enough to figure out cost of the different duration of battery power. It is already clear there would be increased usage when going over the system minimums, hence more cost per minute of use. I think breaking it down both by minutes and melee might be helpful. I am not sure I agree with your costs in relation to battery life purchased, Dan, but maybe a combination of both your ideas and Gryphon Chick's would result in a better system. One of the reasons I asked for her help on this project is she is better than I am with point cost systems and tech and hardware stuff in general, at least in the RPG sense. Still, it seems to me that multiplying the points more you can get more of a surplus for energy draining systems, so you could multiply Gryphon Chick's base amount by ten or a hundred depending on how much you will need in terms individual systems.

[Gryphon Chick]

The points reflect available usage per hour. Individual battery sizes are like packages of points, of course, like prepaid cards. According to a system of 60 minutesX4 meleesX10 base usage to a power supply, you get a battery division of 2,400 charge points available per hour, which would be 28,800 for 12 hours, 19,200 for 8 hours, 14,400 for 6 hours and 9,600 for four hours. Some types of batteries might be geared for more output per hour and last longer when used less. A system recycling or generating its own power would have a percentage absorbed per hour. I know the book typically sells points in easily rounded off numbers of 100 or 1000, which appears to be how Dan set his up, but the time to regenerate points and charge is off because hours are based on a 60 point system, not hundreds, which seems to be the main difference and discrepancy here.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I'm mostly just trying to avoid forcing someone to count up the energy use for each energy blast they fire.... It's already a big enough pain for robotic players to make budgets, buy components, and during combat count ammo and SDC losses, and I've generally found that no one will use any house system that slows down gameplay. Using my electricity bill (in units of kW-hrs) as a guide, "powerpoint-hours" was just a concept I thought might be somewhat familiar to more people.

It was DeificNMI who proposed a system for calculating shot power usage and amping up a shot by spending points, so that is why we were trying to figure out output, and make it equal to the number of die rolled as damage seemed the simplest rather than have to memorize different point amounts.

I'm not sure exactly which costs you don't like... The prices for batteries, or the energy storage? Either one is easily altered. I used a few basic physics concepts to calculate the scale of power for locomotion and weapon discharges, but those are easily changed as well. If it's just a time-unit issue like Gryphon Chick is suggesting, well, that's the easiest fix of all!

It was the point cost allocation and energy storage amounts, but you are correct, that is easily fixed.

Of course, whatever rules make you happy are the ones you should use... I certainly don't get much use out of my own stuff these days, so feel free to cannibalize whatever bits you feel are worthwhile. Honestly, as long as everyone understands the difference between power (the size of your engine) and energy (the size of your gas tank), my inner physicist is satisfied.

It certainly would simplify things to a degree to work off of what you have already laid the groundwork for. That way I could just copy and paste what you have and modify it with the changes she recommends. Trying to start from scratch frankly makes my head hurt.

[Gryphon Chick]

My main issue has been the time unit concept, given that most companies sell batteries based on estimated life for your standard model such and such, with a basic unit using the power the battery specs advertise but excessive use wearing the battery down. It would encourage conservative use of certain systems and provide a way to penalize players for overuse of power. I am not sure how that would mesh with Dan;s system, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

[Gryphon Chick]

So then how would increased speed and cranking up damage to a shot affect the units? I understand the need for simplicity, but sometimes there is such a thing as too simple.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I agree. Part of the challenge was to try and come up with a way of amping usage per shot to get increased damage, as per DeificNMI's request.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Well.... It'd be pretty simple for my system, where the power usage is directly rated to the damage of whatever weapon you hook up. Increase the damage and it would increase the drain on the battery, and decrease the battery life: No changes needed.

The "simple vs too-simple" idea is why I tried to load the math into one big calculation during the design phase, letting the player leave their robot on one of several settings: Count up the time and you know how much battery storage you've used up.

I agree. The minor thing of adjusting it to fit the units equal to time segments thing would be all we need to do to make it fit with what Gryphon Girl has in mind. Hopefully she will get it done and up on the board and we can call it good.

[Gryphon Chick]

Sorry, been a bit of an insane schedule this week. I'll try starting on it tonight.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I think that all you have to do is multiply the battery storage numbers by 240, unless I'm missing what you you've got in mind. That would give you energy in units of "power-point-melee-rounds" instead of "power-point-hours".

Earlier, it seemed like GryphonChick was mainly concerned with how many times the batteries can be recharged.... That, of course, would be something totally different; I like the idea of maintenance costs as the robots builds up mileage.

I think part of what she wanted to do was have batteries which were in increments of power points which reflected even hour amounts, but I think that is impractical anyway since usage will never be entirely even. Even with rechargeables, all you really have to do is say they recharge at three times the base usage rate per hour and be done with it. I think she already had the numbers on the number of times lithium batteries can be recharged.

[Yukon]

once the rechargeable battery can't be charged up anymore, what do you pay for a new battery pack? half the listed cost of the power supply?

[Gryphon Chick]

Cost would vary based on type of battery and number of power points provided. It will all be covered in the final write-up when I get it done.

[Gryphon Chick]

New Robotics Details: Power Supply (modified) by Baron von Clogg with slight modifications by Gryphon Chick

First, in order to understand what I am aiming for, you might need a
very short physics lesson:

* An engine is capable of continually processing a certain amount of fuel.
* Fuel is converted by an engine into usable energy.
* Power is the rate at which energy is transferred.

Therefore, in a simplified world, an engine is capable of delivering a constant, continual amount of power. This amount of power is determined by what type of engine we have, what type of fuel it uses, how big it is, etc.... The difference between power and energy is important. Energy is contained within fuel; power is the rate that fuel is converted. To restate: The amount of energy used by a system is equal to the constant power it consumes multiplied by the amount of time that power is being consumed.

Robot Power Need System:

One first needs to pay attention to a specific robot's power needs. Based on the size one can then purchase a system. The power system must be rated to perform under maximum conditions. To determine the maximum power needed, a rating system needs to be applied; look at the formula I propose and plug values into the brackets, using the units in parenthesis.

Locomotion

First of all, a robot that runs along the ground at Mach 1 is silly. I can accept that robots will be able to run at a few hundred mph, but breaking the sound barrier with legs is just plain impossible. That's another issue altogether....

[ Mass of robot (see mass scale) ] * [ Maximum Velocity (spd tribute)

] * [ Scaling Factor (see below) ] = [ Power required for locomotion (points) ]

Mass Scale:

1 point for every 50 kg. You'll have to take a guess, since you don't know how much your robot will weigh until you buy the power system.

Example: A typical human sized robot probably has a mass near 150 kg. This gives the robot a mass scale value of 3. A large robot might have

a mass near 10,000 kg, resulting in a mass scale value of 200. Very

large robots... well, you get the picture. If you want to get picky use fractions to calculate exact mass scale numbers. (75 kg = 1.5 mass value)

Scaling Factors:

Human Style Legs: 2
Animal Style Legs: 3
Insect Style Legs: 4
Wheels: 1; Treads: 2
Turbo-Jet: 5 (velocity restrictions exist)
Hover Jets (Barely off of ground): 5; (Flight capability): 10
Jump Jets: 2 (base system has speed attribute of about 40)

Additional Subsystems

One needs to power the other onboard systems: appendages, electronics, optics, weapons, etc. These probably won't be as power intensive as making your 15 ton behemoth run along at Mach 1, but for the sake of completeness.... Each audio, optics, or sensor subsystem requires 5

power points. Add up the ratings for each subsystem being used.

Appendages and weapons are as follows:

Appendages:

Multiply the following by number of attacks per melee:

Each Pair of Human-sized arms: [ PS attribute ] multiplied by 4
Each Pair of Giant Sized arms: [ PS attribute ] multiplied by 8
Each Utility Arm: [ PS attribute ] multiplied by 2
Each Tentacle: [ PS attribute ] multiplied by 3
Energy Weapons:

For each weapon that draws its "ammunition" from the robot's main supply multiply the maximum damage (SDC) that weapon can cause by 10.

Multiply again by how many times the weapon will be used per melee round.

Weapons that get ammunition from energy clips only use 5 points, as do non-energy weapons with electronic components.

Weapons that have no electronic components require no power.

Total Power Need

Add all of the points you've racked up building your technological terror to determine how much power is needed. With this value you can decide on a power supply. Remember that there are fuel considerations to be made. Example: Do you have room for a forty gallon jet fuel tank on your robotic howler monkey?

Continuous Power Supplies

Gasoline Engines

The cost of installing a gasoline engine will be approximately $1000 per 500 power points, up to 10,000. More powerful engines will cost $5000 per 1000 points after 10,000. The mass of an engine is approximately 200 kg per 500 points.

Solar Converters

On a sunny day a solar converter can continually provide 100 power points per square meter of solar panel. The fuel is free, but there just isn't that much out there. A powerful backup battery system is strongly recommended if this is your primary onboard power source. Large flat solar panels cost $500 per square meter. Shaped panels (contoured to fit onto a curved surface) will cost $2000 per square meter. Solar panels have a mass of about 15 kg per square meter.

Fusion Plants

Extremely rare, extremely difficult to manufacture, and therefore extremely expensive. On the plus side, it's the ultimate in sheer power
available. As explained in HU, this system is limited to large robots. Cost is $2.5 million, plus $0.5 million for every 50,000 power points. Fusion systems have a mass of 250 kg plus 75 kg per 50,000 power points. A reduced system that produces 18,000 power points can be bought for $2.8 million. Reduced system mass is 275 kg.

Micro-Fusion

All of the complications of the normal fusion system, plus miniaturization expenses to boot. Cost is $4.0 million, plus $1.0 million for every 10,000 power points. Mass is 50 kg plus 15 kg per 10,000 points. A reduced system that produces 3000 power points can be bought for $4.5 million. Reduced system mass is 55 kg.
Battery Storage

Rather than continuously generate onboard power one can store energy in batteries and use it as needed. For very small robots this option seems far preferable to multi-million dollar microfusion systems. Batteries can be charged from nearly any power source, can be shaped to fit anywhere on the robot, and are much less likely to fail under extreme conditions. For many robots a charged battery could serve as a cheap emergency backup power system. Batteries are rated in terms of power-point-melees (ppm): 240 ppm is the energy required to output one power point for one full hour. Example: A player can empty a 240,000 ppm battery in one hour by continually using 1000 power points, or empty the same battery in 5 hours by only using 200 power points.

Batteries

Equivalent to standard commercially available chemical batteries, one can purchase rectangular or cylindrical shaped models from most well-stocked industrial suppliers. These batteries can be custom designed for space considerations, special needs, etc (required for most humanoid robots); multiply costs below by ten.

* Small: Cost for a 24,000 ppm battery is $200. Mass: 5 kg.
* Medium: Cost for a 240,000 ppm battery is $1500. Mass: 35 kg.
* Large: Cost for a 2,400,000 ppm battery $12,000. Mass: 250 kg.

Quantum Effect Batteries

This advanced technology utilizes high temperature superconductors and a delicate but powerful physical effect: energy is stored in the quantum levels of a special material using very high magnetic fields.

This technology is not commonly available to the general public because of cost considerations; those models that are available are typically rectangular or cylindrical in shape. However, because mass production of these batteries is uncommon, custom shapes can be purchased for only three times the costs below.

* Small: Cost for a 240,000 ppm battery is $45,000. Mass: 4 kg.
* Medium: Cost for a 2,400,000 ppm battery is $350,000. Mass: 30 kg.
* Large: Cost for a 24,000,000 ppm battery $2,400,000. Mass: 225 kg.

Energy Costs

To charge the battery you have to hook it up to an external power source. You can either buy one of the power systems above (in an external form) or buy power from the electric company. Energy costs are

about $20 for 120,000 ppm.

Gamemaster Note

Allowing player robots to run on battery power means you may have to pay attention to power consumption. If batteries run out a robot is little more than a shiny statue. Fairness to other players would require these rules to be somewhat strictly enforced.
Advanced Tricks

Primary versus Secondary Power Systems

It might be very efficient to use a battery system for a robot's primary source, and a continuous source as a secondary system. During peak power usage (combat) the robot could draw on power very quickly from the battery. All the while, the battery is being charged by the secondary system. The continuous source could be a smaller, cheaper system in this configuration. The robot won't be sitting around for 23

hours a day wasting incredible power output, waiting for that one hour of combat. When a surge of power is finally needed the batteries can provide most of the power, while the continuous system augments the power available.

System Configurations

Does your robot need to power it's particle beam cannon while flying at Mach 1, all the while cooking a turkey in the onboard microwave oven? A robot could be preassigned several power consumption configurations.

The main power is used to power the propulsion system while flying cross country, but might be needed for weapons power when engaged in combat. If you don't plan on using both at the same time, why buy an oversized power plant? A compromise could be a speed limit while using the weapon systems. A separate battery could be used to power onboard sensors and optics. The possibilities are nearly endless; some planning

ahead will allow a robot designer to make very efficient models.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Yeah, I can see a couple places where the costs might need to be adjusted.

[Gryphon Chick]

Well, Baron von Clogg did most of the work, I just tweaked it slightly to account for game pace and hourly usage rates.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I will go over the unit to cost amounts on my copy of the original file copied from Dan's page to see if I can't get them adjusted to fit with the modifications.

[Gryphon Chick]

Well, I tried. I guess it is just confusing me.

[Stone Gargoyle]

So then what should we do, just multiply the battery numbers only?

[Gryphon Chick]

I think i just misunderstood what changes you suggested and was in too big a hurry to get it done. If no one else posts the corrected version I will, just kind of embarassed now.

[Gryphon Chick]

Sometimes I overthink the problem. And considering how much I bragged to Stone Gargoyle I was going to solve this and joined the forum so I could show how well I could... I could not have put my foot in my mouth worse if I tried!

[Gryphon Chick]

Okay, I reposted it with JUST the changes you suggested. Hopefully I got it right this time.

[Gryphon Chick]

One little thing: You converted the numbers to power-point-melees, but left the units as "pphr", power-point-hours.

Sorry, that part is fixed now.

I'm interested to see what you've got to fold in with the newer ideas that you started with, with battery performance at different levels of charge percentage and lifetime.

I am going to have to rework those, since I thought it would be simpler to do initially. I think it's pretty simple though: On lithium batteries, you multiply your power points times 300 charges, but if you wind up using less to recharge because you still have points remaining, it goes towards the next time you recharge. So by draining down to only 40%, you wind up having 40% more times you can recharge, which in the case of 300 recharges would boost you up to 420 charges.

[Stone Gargoyle]

To get 500 recharges, then, you have a return of 66.66% on your 40% remaining power, which is a little over 150% of 40%, so you could say that if you don't use the points, you get an additional 50% (for simplicity sake) points, so say you have a remainder of 40,000 out of 100,000 points, by recharging you get 60,000 points to put towards future recharges.

[Gryphon Chick]

To get 500 recharges, then, you have a return of 66.66% on your 40% remaining power, which is a little over 150% of 40%, so you could say that if you don't use the points, you get an additional 50% (for simplicity sake) points, so say you have a remainder of 40,000 out of 100,000 points, by recharging you get 60,000 points to put towards future recharges.

Okay, so here is how it would work then:

Recharging Batteries

When recharging, the robot does not need to pay for power points again. The power point capacity for a given battery can be replenished fully by using recharge points which reflect the amount of power used to recharge the battery. So rather than buy power points, recharge points can be gained for 1% of the original power point cost of the battery and recharge the battery at a rate of 3 times usage capacity, so if a battery is rated to last for 12 hours, the battery will recharge in 4 hours. A battery can be recharge 300 times if fully drained or up to 500 times if recharged when over 40% power level left (Multiply power points X 300 for total recharge points maximum for a battery). If recharging below 40% battery power, any power points left over are carried over 1 power point = 1 recharge point, but if charging when still over 40%, they are carried over to where 1 power point = 1.5 recharge points. This reflects the inability of the battery to recharge fully when drained of too much battery life. It can also be expressed as batteries being recharged before under 40% power can be recharged with only 75% of the power points in recharge points. Either way you care to calculate it, the battery will require less recharge points to regain battery power points.

[Stone Gargoyle]

It would make sense that recharging the batteries would cost considerably less than buying them new, but what type of charger would be involved in recharging them? I suppose you could have the recharger as part of the battery compartment or have a separate unit for that purpose. Anyone have any ideas?

[Gryphon Chick]

It would make sense that recharging the batteries would cost considerably less than buying them new, but what type of charger would be involved in recharging them? I suppose you could have the recharger as part of the battery compartment or have a separate unit for that purpose. Anyone have any ideas?

I think we would need to find out how much a generator with that capacity would cost, but I really have no clue.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Thanks, that helps a lot.

[Gryphon Chick]

Thanks, Dan.

[The Artist Formerly]

I gotta say that I like where you're going with this Dan, but I would suggest you look at ways to cut down the book work. Palladium games are already a weird sort of LARP/math test hybrid, and Robot characters are among the worst for the 'extra crap you might need to keep track of and isn't easily accessible from the book' as it is. Adding more book work limits ease of play.

Perhaps a " 'X' combat life with energy weapons, doubled that life span without them, and five times that amount if no serious stress is placed on the battery." sort of arangement.

For example, my Power Armor character Kage (Hardware Analitcal) had a super solar engine power option. But instead of carrying the whole thing around, I used a fixed location charger. The solar array was located (concealed) around my work shop, and in the first generation system, I had a roughly 8 hour power supply, and a four hour emergency supply. After which I had to return home to plug in and recharge.

During play, I upgraded the system, and Kage 1.1 had a ten hour power supply with four hour back up. Kage 2.0 had a twenty hour supply, and by the time I worked up to Kage 4.3, I had a fifty hour power supply (all Kage models 5+ carried their own handwaium powered unlimited power source, and I was no longer reliant on a battery system). We defined combat useage as any activity that would put a significant draw on the power supply, weather I was battling villians, flying around for fun or trying to put out forest fires. If I wasn't putting much stress on the power system, then my power life span lasted longer, based on the exacts of my activities.