Keeping the fear with soldiers?

[rat_bastard]

I am about to GM my first game of DR, and I am trying to keep it scary. My problem is how can I maintain a nice fear factor, when soldiers are involved as players? My game was going to start slightly before my PCs get into face to face encounters with the living dead. My players were going to be hunkered down in an apartment complex that is boarded up in a suburb of St. Louis. So far my PCs are comprised of a mid 20s computer programmer, a stay at home writer, and a construction worker. I have two other PCs, one who wants to be a marine and another who is contemplating being a marine as well.

My two problems are 1. How/Why would two marines not be fighting alongside their fellow soldiers and be hanging with normal survivors, and 2.How can I keep all of my players afraid. There always seems to be a tendency to lose the fear when Soldiers and their weapons are involved.

Should I not allow soldiers if I am trying to go for a scary campaign?

Make it personal, make them "kill" their roommates, friends, loved ones etc. Roleplay a session where they are all alive then kill them in the wave and have them rise and attack your players, have zombies kill beloved pets, people etc, attack them with zombie Children, have survivors attack them.

[J. Lionheart]

It would be easy enough for the two marines to have been home on leave when the Wave hit, unable to return to their unit. They teamed up with the other survivors in order to fight the bad guys. In that situation, they probably wouldn't have their military hardware, so the point is moot. Perhaps they were part of a recon expedition or strike force that got annihilated, and as the only two survivors left, hooked up with the local folks to evade and survive. In that case they'd have their weapons, but big guns should not equal lack of fear. If they aren't afraid right now, just quote Yoda at them... "You will be... you will be."

Nothing inspires fear quite like being in a nearly unescapable dead-end with fewer bullets than there are zombies.
Or the realization that a single zombie can require many bullets, so by the time it's dead, the others are on you.
Or perhaps a Thinker zombie having a couple Fast Attack zombies suddenly coming in through the skylight of what was thought to be a safe building.
Or a death cultist infiltrates the group and opens the door at an inopportune moment.
Or having one of the players get bit by a scared animal while on his own, and having the others think it's a zombie bite.
Or perhaps the fortress you're hiding in isn't quite so empty as you thought.
Or maybe you can't find any more ammo for your most powerful weapons (you are counting bullets, right?).
Or perhaps each character has a secret motivation only that player knows, and one of you might be a traitor.
Or maybe the GM silently passes a note to one player with orders not to share the content (it could be blank).
Or you could play with the lights out, creepy music going, and only a candle for illumination.
Or what if the pounding of the Zombies ruptures a gas line, so gunfire leads to explosion.
Or maybe the group is dependant on some unreliable NPCs for shelter, and those NPCs are looking a bit crazy.

There are many ways to keep them afraid!

[asajosh]

My two problems are 1. How/Why would two marines not be fighting alongside their fellow soldiers and be hanging with normal survivors, and 2.How can I keep all of my players afraid. There always seems to be a tendency to lose the fear when Soldiers and their weapons are involved.

Should I not allow soldiers if I am trying to go for a scary campaign?

Liking your premise.
Reasons two Marines could be together and not on post:
1) They are on leave, either medical or personal.
2) One or both of them may have been recently discharge, possibly for medical reasons (an injury, amputation maybe).
3) Gone AWOL (Absent Without Leave)

As to keeping the fear factor up with armed soldiers, well, weapons jam and run out of bullets. And guns are loud and draw a crowd, both living and dead. Especially loud in a semi-abandonded city.

[Kelorin]

Check out this thread: viewtopic.php?f=77&t=98679
Other possibilities:
1) The Marines are Scout Snipers. reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Sniper
One is the sniper, and the other is the spotter. This means one of them gets to carry around this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M82_Barrett_rifle
It is not unusual, for Scout Snipers to operate deep behind enemy lines. The marines are there to recon, survive, get out of town and to report back to their superiors.
2) Remember that scene from the Dawn of the Dead remake, where the big USMC CH-53D is flying away from the mall after the survivors have arrived at the mall? What if your marines were aboard that helicopter, but they had to make an emergency landing in hostile territory? Most of the other marines aboard were killed on impact except for your 2 P.C.s (and a couple of other N.P.C. marines that you can sacrifice to the zombie horde for dramatic effect).
3) Similar to above, the marines, were participating in a large scale evacuation effort where USMC helos (in addition to choppers from other military branches) were airlifting survivors from a sports stadium, high school football field or similar venue. Things got ugly, zombies overran outlying defences; this caused survivors to stampede towards the too few helos. Lots of casualties. (Picture the Hurricane Katrina helicopter airlift: http://www.helis.com/featured/katrina.php , but with zombies added to the mix) Your P.C.s and a handful of other troops and other survivors (the other characters) got to a humvee and got oughta Dodge, barely. Disoriented and alone, the survivors got to figure out how to successfully get out of town on the ground before Air Force B-52's show up to bomb the city into rubble.

[GreenGhost]

Honestly- A soldier (regardless of Branch) who says that they have no fear (at times) is either a fool or a liar.

It's what you do with that fear is what counts.

[asajosh]

Honestly- A soldier (regardless of Branch) who says that they have no fear (at times) is either a fool or a liar.

It's what you do with that fear is what counts.

True, isnt that what soldiers say about war:
"Vast streches of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror"?

[GaredBattlespike]

My suggesstion: AWOL!
Q: The world has gone MAD! ENDING!!! THE DEAD ARE RISING!!!!!!!! What are YOU gonna do?
A) Stay on base, follow orders-thus LETTING YOUR FAMILY DIE!?!?!? or
B) Go AWOL, and try to find/save your loved ones?

Put that way, I can guess which way most folks will jump, AND why "The Army is AWOL" line in DR Main Book. Everyone went to try and go save thier own loved ones, rather than stick together.

Just my $0.02 worth.

[J. Lionheart]

...running from a large horde of zeds (where did that name come from anyway?)

The letter Z is pronounced "Zed" in British English. Calling them "Zeds" is just a British name for them, like calling them Z's in American, or Zacks as a sort of phonetic alphabet callsign.

[NMI]

The 2 marines could be "Reservists" that were not activated at the time of dead walking!

[GreenGhost]

Honestly- A soldier (regardless of Branch) who says that they have no fear (at times) is either a fool or a liar.

It's what you do with that fear is what counts.

True, isnt that what soldiers say about war:
"Vast streches of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror"?

I believe so.

[Cybermancer]

There are two fear reactions that every human has.

Flight

And

Fight

Just because a soldier is fighting doesn't mean he isn't scared. The same goes for players and their characters. They may be fighting because they're scared so don't get hung up on it.

[GreenGhost]

There are two fear reactions that every human has.

Flight

And

Fight

Just because a soldier is fighting doesn't mean he isn't scared. The same goes for players and their characters. They may be fighting because they're scared so don't get hung up on it.

I agree, but I've seen some freeze as well. So I guess there's a third fear response.

[Cybermancer]

There are two fear reactions that every human has.

Flight

And

Fight

Just because a soldier is fighting doesn't mean he isn't scared. The same goes for players and their characters. They may be fighting because they're scared so don't get hung up on it.

I agree, but I've seen some freeze as well. So I guess there's a third fear response.

No, that's part of the 'Flight' response.

"If I don't move, maybe it won't see me or will leave me alone." You see it in small mammals all the time as part of their survival mechanism.

[GreenGhost]

There are two fear reactions that every human has.

Flight

And

Fight

Just because a soldier is fighting doesn't mean he isn't scared. The same goes for players and their characters. They may be fighting because they're scared so don't get hung up on it.

I agree, but I've seen some freeze as well. So I guess there's a third fear response.

No, that's part of the 'Flight' response.

"If I don't move, maybe it won't see me or will leave me alone." You see it in small mammals all the time as part of their survival mechanism.

I can see why you say that, but I've also seen soldoiers freeze without the rational thought of "maybe they won't see me." They froze in the open, unable to move to take cover or defend himself. That's why I consider it a 3rd fear response.

If, in a particular situation, it's a rational thought and they freeze to keep from being seen then in those situations (like you mentioned in small mammals) I'd agree with you that it would fall under the "Flight Response."

[Augur]

Keep everything close-quarters.

When I ran my first DR game I made the mistake of engaging the group with zombies while on a largely deserted 2-lane road.

The characters had a couple rifles between them and were in a jeep. The zombies never stood a chance, it was boring and repetitive, and it was not fun. The characters simply avoided the Zombies and keep shooting, waiting for the headshots and backing away as required.

If your group enters a situation like that, just fast-forward through things a bit--don't make them play it out.

[Arnie100]

Have your players run out of ammo at the most inoppurtune moment, like when they see a chance for an escape and start blasting away and all of a sudden: CLICK! And the zombies start moving closer, reaching out for you...

[Augur]

Have your players run out of ammo at the most inoppurtune moment, like when they see a chance for an escape and start blasting away and all of a sudden: CLICK! And the zombies start moving closer, reaching out for you...

Ammunition is a resource that players can verify and track IC. I don't see how that's possible w/o it being considered a "railroading" by the GM.

[Cybermancer]

There are two fear reactions that every human has.

Flight

And

Fight

Just because a soldier is fighting doesn't mean he isn't scared. The same goes for players and their characters. They may be fighting because they're scared so don't get hung up on it.

I agree, but I've seen some freeze as well. So I guess there's a third fear response.

No, that's part of the 'Flight' response.

"If I don't move, maybe it won't see me or will leave me alone." You see it in small mammals all the time as part of their survival mechanism.

I can see why you say that, but I've also seen soldoiers freeze without the rational thought of "maybe they won't see me." They froze in the open, unable to move to take cover or defend himself. That's why I consider it a 3rd fear response.

If, in a particular situation, it's a rational thought and they freeze to keep from being seen then in those situations (like you mentioned in small mammals) I'd agree with you that it would fall under the "Flight Response."

Flight or Fight is not a rational response system. It's an instinctive response to danger. Just as it the case with animals caught out in the open who freeze when frightened, so to is it with humans. It's not rational and is not always the best course of action, but at that point the person (or animal) is no longer in conscious control.

Ideally, one wants to respond before this red line is reached. While fear and adrenaline have heightened the senses and reaction time but before the mind is overwhelmed with stimuli.

Nevertheless, freezing up is part of the flight or fight response.

[GreenGhost]

There are two fear reactions that every human has.

Flight

And

Fight

Just because a soldier is fighting doesn't mean he isn't scared. The same goes for players and their characters. They may be fighting because they're scared so don't get hung up on it.

I agree, but I've seen some freeze as well. So I guess there's a third fear response.

No, that's part of the 'Flight' response.

"If I don't move, maybe it won't see me or will leave me alone." You see it in small mammals all the time as part of their survival mechanism.

I can see why you say that, but I've also seen soldoiers freeze without the rational thought of "maybe they won't see me." They froze in the open, unable to move to take cover or defend himself. That's why I consider it a 3rd fear response.

If, in a particular situation, it's a rational thought and they freeze to keep from being seen then in those situations (like you mentioned in small mammals) I'd agree with you that it would fall under the "Flight Response."

Flight or Fight is not a rational response system. It's an instinctive response to danger. Just as it the case with animals caught out in the open who freeze when frightened, so to is it with humans. It's not rational and is not always the best course of action, but at that point the person (or animal) is no longer in conscious control.

Ideally, one wants to respond before this red line is reached. While fear and adrenaline have heightened the senses and reaction time but before the mind is overwhelmed with stimuli.

Nevertheless, freezing up is part of the flight or fight response.

I'm just going by what I've personally seen in combat. I guess it's one of those... "you'd have to be there" type things. I've personally witnessed the 3rd fear response.

[Cybermancer]

Flight or Fight is not a rational response system. It's an instinctive response to danger. Just as it the case with animals caught out in the open who freeze when frightened, so to is it with humans. It's not rational and is not always the best course of action, but at that point the person (or animal) is no longer in conscious control.

Ideally, one wants to respond before this red line is reached. While fear and adrenaline have heightened the senses and reaction time but before the mind is overwhelmed with stimuli.

Nevertheless, freezing up is part of the flight or fight response.

I'm just going by what I've personally seen in combat. I guess it's one of those... "you'd have to be there" type things. I've personally witnessed the 3rd fear response.

Been there, done that. And what I'm telling you is that reaction is part of the 'Flight or Fight' response. Freezing up is considered part of the flight mechanism and has nothing to do with rational thought. Running away, seeking cover, freezing up. All considered 'flight' responses. I'm surprised none of this was covered on your pre-deployment training.

[GreenGhost]

Flight or Fight is not a rational response system. It's an instinctive response to danger. Just as it the case with animals caught out in the open who freeze when frightened, so to is it with humans. It's not rational and is not always the best course of action, but at that point the person (or animal) is no longer in conscious control.

Ideally, one wants to respond before this red line is reached. While fear and adrenaline have heightened the senses and reaction time but before the mind is overwhelmed with stimuli.

Nevertheless, freezing up is part of the flight or fight response.

I'm just going by what I've personally seen in combat. I guess it's one of those... "you'd have to be there" type things. I've personally witnessed the 3rd fear response.

Been there, done that. And what I'm telling you is that reaction is part of the 'Flight or Fight' response. Freezing up is considered part of the flight mechanism and has nothing to do with rational thought. Running away, seeking cover, freezing up. All considered 'flight' responses. I'm surprised none of this was covered on your pre-deployment training.

It was covered as a 3rd fear response. I was also covered prior to my fathers pre-deployment training before each of his 3 tours in Vietnam. He said that he had to listen to it each time.

Things change and maybe it's no longer considered a 3rd response. As of '92 it was stillpart of it, but like I said- times (and things) change.

[Cybermancer]

Flight or Fight is not a rational response system. It's an instinctive response to danger. Just as it the case with animals caught out in the open who freeze when frightened, so to is it with humans. It's not rational and is not always the best course of action, but at that point the person (or animal) is no longer in conscious control.

Ideally, one wants to respond before this red line is reached. While fear and adrenaline have heightened the senses and reaction time but before the mind is overwhelmed with stimuli.

Nevertheless, freezing up is part of the flight or fight response.

I'm just going by what I've personally seen in combat. I guess it's one of those... "you'd have to be there" type things. I've personally witnessed the 3rd fear response.

Been there, done that. And what I'm telling you is that reaction is part of the 'Flight or Fight' response. Freezing up is considered part of the flight mechanism and has nothing to do with rational thought. Running away, seeking cover, freezing up. All considered 'flight' responses. I'm surprised none of this was covered on your pre-deployment training.

It was covered as a 3rd fear response. I was also covered prior to my fathers pre-deployment training before each of his 3 tours in Vietnam. He said that he had to listen to it each time.

Things change and maybe it's no longer considered a 3rd response. As of '92 it was stillpart of it, but like I said- times (and things) change.

I can't speak to what it was '92 and before but it is, today and for the last decade or so, considered part of fight or flight response.

[GreenGhost]

Flight or Fight is not a rational response system. It's an instinctive response to danger. Just as it the case with animals caught out in the open who freeze when frightened, so to is it with humans. It's not rational and is not always the best course of action, but at that point the person (or animal) is no longer in conscious control.

Ideally, one wants to respond before this red line is reached. While fear and adrenaline have heightened the senses and reaction time but before the mind is overwhelmed with stimuli.

Nevertheless, freezing up is part of the flight or fight response.

I'm just going by what I've personally seen in combat. I guess it's one of those... "you'd have to be there" type things. I've personally witnessed the 3rd fear response.

Been there, done that. And what I'm telling you is that reaction is part of the 'Flight or Fight' response. Freezing up is considered part of the flight mechanism and has nothing to do with rational thought. Running away, seeking cover, freezing up. All considered 'flight' responses. I'm surprised none of this was covered on your pre-deployment training.

It was covered as a 3rd fear response. I was also covered prior to my fathers pre-deployment training before each of his 3 tours in Vietnam. He said that he had to listen to it each time.

Things change and maybe it's no longer considered a 3rd response. As of '92 it was stillpart of it, but like I said- times (and things) change.

I can't speak to what it was '92 and before but it is, today and for the last decade or so, considered part of fight or flight response.

Well- that would explain why we both claim to know what we do, LOL! We were trained differently.

[Cybermancer]

Indeed.

[Sir Blayse]

Well I don't think two Marines would be bad for the group, even if they have a few weapons. If things get too out of control with the two, then wait for them to neglect cleaning their weapons for a while, then in the heat of battle have a weapon jam up. My characters learned to keep their weapons cleaned. Other issues, finite ammo for their weapons if they are using 5.56mm then they will probably run out pretty quick. Really for the group if they play them well, they could help out with leadership and tactics. I don't think anything in the Marines trains you for the living to rise up in death and attack the living. One other point, the military trains to shot center mass on targets, don't let the players cheat and automatically know to go for head shots. If they do I would penalize them. Even snipers rarely shoot for the head, most would aim for the chest area. High powered rifles do just fine killing a person with a chest wound. Back to equipment, I would not give them immediate access to any serious military hardware other than small arms.

I personally like the idea that they were part of a larger group and got cut off. They are not sure of the remaining groups outcome and will want to try and set up communication with them. They might encounter the group at the apartment while under siege. This siege could be from as few as four or five zeds, the players help dispatch those and when they feel as though have saved the day, they realize their loud gunfire has just alerted a much large group of zeds, now they most run or hole up with the survivors...

[Silveressa]

One other point, the military trains to shot center mass on targets, don't let the players cheat and automatically know to go for head shots.

Actually when I was in the army national guard we were trained to use the "Mozambique triple tap", which is 2 shots to the center mass and 1 to the head.

(For those who are curious; the triple tap originated in Africa in the 1950's-60's period when inferior revolvers were a problem. This has evolved and taught at most police agencies in North America.)

It's also pretty easy for PC's to claim they watched enough zombie movies to know head shots are the best way to take them down.

That bit aside you bring up a good idea with weapons jamming if not properly maintained, but don't forget the chance of dud rounds/mis feeds causing a problem at the most inopportune moments. (especially if they decide to load more "exotic rounds" in their weapons like wad cutters, hollow points, or some "home made" modification to the bullets.

Another technique to help control the "lead hose" effect is counting clips of ammo over just bullets. The soldier may have a box of 500 5.56 mm rounds, but if they only own 1-3 actual clips for their m4/m-16 they'll have to pause for a critical amount of time to reload those clips during the heat of battle once they've run dry.

Oh and if you really want to get nit picky/have gritty realism, remind them the dangers of their guns over heating from prolonged rapid firing that could lead to weapon damage or "cook offs" (ammo firing inside the barrel or even magazine from the immense heat)

[Noon]

I am about to GM my first game of DR, and I am trying to keep it scary. My problem is how can I maintain a nice fear factor, when soldiers are involved as players? My game was going to start slightly before my PCs get into face to face encounters with the living dead. My players were going to be hunkered down in an apartment complex that is boarded up in a suburb of St. Louis. So far my PCs are comprised of a mid 20s computer programmer, a stay at home writer, and a construction worker. I have two other PCs, one who wants to be a marine and another who is contemplating being a marine as well.

My two problems are 1. How/Why would two marines not be fighting alongside their fellow soldiers and be hanging with normal survivors, and 2.How can I keep all of my players afraid. There always seems to be a tendency to lose the fear when Soldiers and their weapons are involved.

Should I not allow soldiers if I am trying to go for a scary campaign?

Frequently ask them during play what their character is scared about and they get 50 to whatever amount of XP based on their responce (important, give 50 for any answer - if you give zero it's like slapping them when they were trying to be creative - it actually punishes them for being creative and they start giving up being creative at all - resist giving no points at all!!!!!)


Also perhaps write 'something scary is coming' on their sheet, and tell them to add some points to it, as if it's building up to something.