TW Energy Conversions?

[Crazy Lou]

So, would you allow a TW to design a conversion machine that takes an electricity source and convert that source to PPE? There are printed examples of machines that convert input PPE into electricity, so would it logically follow that an energy conversion in the opposite direction is possible?

[drewkitty ~..~]

PPE to electricity goes all the way back to the RMB.
Electricity to PPE is not possible.

[Library Ogre]

So, would you allow a TW to design a conversion machine that takes an electricity source and convert that source to PPE? There are printed examples of machines that convert input PPE into electricity, so would it logically follow that an energy conversion in the opposite direction is possible?

Sure - just modify an existing machine for converting warmth into firewood.

Like a greenhouse?

[Captain Shiva]

So, would you allow a TW to design a conversion machine that takes an electricity source and convert that source to PPE? There are printed examples of machines that convert input PPE into electricity, so would it logically follow that an energy conversion in the opposite direction is possible?

Probably not in Rifts, but in Gurps, there is a spell called Draw Power that allows mages to tap high tech energy sources for magical energy. I had a character use that spell to cast a 300d6 fireball.

[Sir Blayse]

So, would you allow a TW to design a conversion machine that takes an electricity source and convert that source to PPE? There are printed examples of machines that convert input PPE into electricity, so would it logically follow that an energy conversion in the opposite direction is possible?

Sure - just modify an existing machine for converting warmth into firewood.

Like a greenhouse?

Sure. The equivalent for converting electricity into PPE is an electrically-powered microenvironment (electrical heating and light for plants) supporting animals which are harvested and sacrificed for PPE. In an advanced form, it supports sentient or semisentient beings which are trained to willingly donate PPE. Also like a greenhouse, it is neither faster nor more efficient than the old-fashioned way, just a lot more controllable for environmental factors.

Another thought, although I don't have the inclination right now to dig through the relevant books to see if it works, is using the TW health-to-PPE converters with an IRMSS or other electrically-powered medical system facilitating the donor's recovery.

Sounds more like a bio-wizard device from Atlantis. I would say no, otherwise you get into some infinite loop ideas... PPE converter works by a spell that creates electricity, electricity can not create anything other than what is does.

[Crazy Lou]

electricity can not create anything other than what is does.

Although there's been a pretty solid consensus of "no" to my question, I would like to clarify to the quote above that I wasn't suggesting that the electricity CREATE PPE, I was suggesting conversion, similar to how electricity can be converted to heat energy to boil water to produce steam pressure to ultimately be converted into mechanical energy.

I see your point for the greenhouse analogy. Thanks.

[Nightmaster]

PPE to electricity goes all the way back to the RMB.
Electricity to PPE is not possible.

Sorry but you are wrong.

In Psyscape there are devices that emulate ISP using electricity to allow a minor psychic to use powers that otherwise he would not be able to. The example I am talking about is the Psy Gauntlet that allow the user to create a Psy-Sword by expending only 10 ISP since the other 20 ISP needed to activate that power is provided by a nuclear battery (electricity) build into the gauntlet and the psy-sword work for 10 minutes (like a 2nd level psy character)

If a scientist (not a TW) can create a device that emulate ISP using a electric power source and since by expending 2 ISP any psychic can recharge 1 PPE into any TW device then the idea of electricity being used by a TW to emulate PPE for the use of other TW devices are not impossible.

[Crazy Lou]

PPE to electricity goes all the way back to the RMB.
Electricity to PPE is not possible.

Sorry but you are wrong.

In Psyscape there are devices that emulate ISP using electricity to allow a minor psychic to use powers that otherwise he would not be able to. The example I am talking about is the Psy Gauntlet that allow the user to create a Psy-Sword by expending only 10 ISP since the other 20 ISP needed to activate that power is provided by a nuclear battery (electricity) build into the gauntlet and the psy-sword work for 10 minutes (like a 2nd level psy character)

If a scientist (not a TW) can create a device that emulate ISP using a electric power source and since by expending 2 ISP any psychic can recharge 1 PPE into any TW device then the idea of electricity being used by a TW to emulate PPE for the use of other TW devices are not impossible.

Oh wow, I totally forgot about that thing! Well, in any case then it's at least possible to turn electricity to ISP. This would lend credence to the possibility (at least a possibility) of PPE conversion too. Or elec - ISP - PPE chain conversion.

[Nightmaster]

PPE to electricity goes all the way back to the RMB.
Electricity to PPE is not possible.

Sorry but you are wrong.

In Psyscape there are devices that emulate ISP using electricity to allow a minor psychic to use powers that otherwise he would not be able to. The example I am talking about is the Psy Gauntlet that allow the user to create a Psy-Sword by expending only 10 ISP since the other 20 ISP needed to activate that power is provided by a nuclear battery (electricity) build into the gauntlet and the psy-sword work for 10 minutes (like a 2nd level psy character)

If a scientist (not a TW) can create a device that emulate ISP using a electric power source and since by expending 2 ISP any psychic can recharge 1 PPE into any TW device then the idea of electricity being used by a TW to emulate PPE for the use of other TW devices are not impossible.

Oh wow, I totally forgot about that thing! Well, in any case then it's at least possible to turn electricity to ISP. This would lend credence to the possibility (at least a possibility) of PPE conversion too. Or elec - ISP - PPE chain conversion.

Exactly, most probably it would need a chain like the one you post but its is possible.

Now the question is: How dangerous (or important) would be a comunity or society in Rifts Earth that knows the secrets of turning electricity into PPE?

[Crazy Lou]

PPE to electricity goes all the way back to the RMB.
Electricity to PPE is not possible.

Sorry but you are wrong.

In Psyscape there are devices that emulate ISP using electricity to allow a minor psychic to use powers that otherwise he would not be able to. The example I am talking about is the Psy Gauntlet that allow the user to create a Psy-Sword by expending only 10 ISP since the other 20 ISP needed to activate that power is provided by a nuclear battery (electricity) build into the gauntlet and the psy-sword work for 10 minutes (like a 2nd level psy character)

If a scientist (not a TW) can create a device that emulate ISP using a electric power source and since by expending 2 ISP any psychic can recharge 1 PPE into any TW device then the idea of electricity being used by a TW to emulate PPE for the use of other TW devices are not impossible.

Oh wow, I totally forgot about that thing! Well, in any case then it's at least possible to turn electricity to ISP. This would lend credence to the possibility (at least a possibility) of PPE conversion too. Or elec - ISP - PPE chain conversion.

Exactly, most probably it would need a chain like the one you post but its is possible.

Now the question is: How dangerous (or important) would be a comunity or society in Rifts Earth that knows the secrets of turning electricity into PPE?

The answer to that question depends on how good their mages (and particularly their techno-wizards) are, and how much access they have to gemstones. Because if they could get their hands on a decent stash, they could create some empire crushing weapons. There was a thread by cornholioprime about munchy combinations with equipment and stuff that had a lot of nasty combos involving TW that were technically completely canon legal. I had a GB conversion that effectively meant the pilot never had to leave the suit, suffered no penalties for it, did 4D4x10,000 MD per shot, had unlimited ammo, house of glass, deathword loudspeakers, massive combat bonuses, and invulnerability plus some crazy extra damage capacity and a few other things I forget, and all permanently active. All it needed was a way to convert electricity to PPE to power it all and a couple RPA nuclear power cells. Fun stuff. That's kinda the reason I think people don't really like the idea of elec-PPE conversion. And that's just one example out of that thread.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Oh wow, I totally forgot about that thing! Well, in any case then it's at least possible to turn electricity to ISP. This would lend credence to the possibility (at least a possibility) of PPE conversion too. Or elec - ISP - PPE chain conversion.

nope, ISP can not be converted into PPE

While the Psi Gauntlet may mix ISP and electrical power it is not a conversion. It is a an emulation, just like Nightmaster said.

side note: I have not opened psiscape in years so I'm trusting you used the correct words to describe the Psi Gauntlet.

[Crazy Lou]

emulate was just his word. All the actual description says is "ISP cost: 10 points; the rest of the energy is drawn from artificial sources." (page 154 if you care). Thus, it is not specific, but suggests at least the possibility of a conversion. And it certainly doesn't point against one.

[Crazy Lou]

I consider the OPs idea silly and munchkin. Rogue Scientist does not approve.

nope, ISP can not be converted into PPE

It can. There's a psi power for it.

Oh I completely agree it's munchkin. I just wanted to sound out whether it fell under the category of a technically legal "exploit." It's not like I'd make crazy stuff like that GB in my games or such.

[Nightmaster]

Oh wow, I totally forgot about that thing! Well, in any case then it's at least possible to turn electricity to ISP. This would lend credence to the possibility (at least a possibility) of PPE conversion too. Or elec - ISP - PPE chain conversion.

nope, ISP can not be converted into PPE

While the Psi Gauntlet may mix ISP and electrical power it is not a conversion. It is a an emulation, just like Nightmaster said.

side note: I have not opened psiscape in years so I'm trusting you used the correct words to describe the Psi Gauntlet.

Like Crazy Lou said, Emulation was a word I used.

But you are wrong drewkitty, Psichc characters can power TW devices using their ISP at a rate of 2 ISP per each 1 PPE needed.

So if you use the same principles used in the Psi-Gauntlet, a TW scientist can build a machine that "create" ISP using electricity and then use the "Artificial ISP" to power a TW device of any sort and thus powering that TW device using a electrical power source.

[drewkitty ~..~]

emulate was just his word. All the actual description says is "ISP cost: 10 points; the rest of the energy is drawn from artificial sources." (page 154 if you care). Thus, it is not specific, but suggests at least the possibility of a conversion. And it certainly doesn't point against one.

No it describes getting mundane power to emulate the energy needed.
Your were right when you used the word "emulate".

[drewkitty ~..~]

But you are wrong drewkitty, Psychic characters can power TW devices using their ISP at a rate of 2 ISP per each 1 PPE needed.

That is not converting from ISP to PPE, it is 'Just' powering the TW thingy from a different type of power.

Sort of like how you can now (or shortly in the future) power a car by gas (ppe) or Electricity (isp) now but the two power sources are totally different.

[Nightmaster]

But you are wrong drewkitty, Psychic characters can power TW devices using their ISP at a rate of 2 ISP per each 1 PPE needed.

That is not converting from ISP to PPE, it is 'Just' powering the TW thingy from a different type of power.

Sort of like how you can now (or shortly in the future) power a car by gas (ppe) or Electricity (isp) now but the two power sources are totally different.

Dont see the correlation but that is irrelevant.

The fact remains that you can create an "artificial ISP" to power psy abilities using electricity.

The fact remains that by expending 2 ISP you can power 1 PPE to any TW device.

So the fact remains that by using that method you can power a TW device using electricity.

It dont matter that you are creating ISP that later is pumped into the TW device. What matter is that you are using electricity to acomplish the feat.

[drewkitty ~..~]

To have ISP, You need to have a Living Mind to make the ISP. And Only Magic can store the power from the ISP once it is outside the living mind. (this is not like SW where droids can, if given enough time, use the force)
There is no "artificial ISP", the glove only uses a power emulation. Which is not ISP. The power Emulations Can Not be used to power a TW device. It has to be ISP, PPE, or Chi.
(for references for what Chi is, see the N&S book)


----------------------------------------(notice this line, it says these are separate)

But you are wrong drewkitty, Psychic characters can power TW devices using their ISP at a rate of 2 ISP per each 1 PPE needed.

TW stuff is powered to a set level of "energy". While ether PPE or ISP can be used to power the tw stuff, ISP only has 50% of the power in it as PPE.
There is No Conversion.

If there was conversion in TW, then you could power PSI-Tech and psi-Gizmoter items with PPE to, which does not happen.

------------------------------------------

Thinking about this now, while it made game seance to have both Psi and magic able to power TW devices, for ease of play, in discussions like this one it make things a pain in the @$$.

[Crazy Lou]

emulate was just his word. All the actual description says is "ISP cost: 10 points; the rest of the energy is drawn from artificial sources." (page 154 if you care). Thus, it is not specific, but suggests at least the possibility of a conversion. And it certainly doesn't point against one.

No it describes getting mundane power to emulate the energy needed.
Your were right when you used the word "emulate".

Dude, I gave the exact quote from the book. "Emulate" was not a word in the book. Therefore you can't say "the book should've said emulate, because emulation, not conversion, is the only the only possible explanation." Because it's not the only explanation. The other explanation would be that the electricity is being converted to "effective ISP" or, for simplicity's sake, "ISP."

[Crazy Lou]

If there was conversion in TW, then you could power PSI-Tech and psi-Gizmoter items with PPE to, which does not happen.

Actually, we're only actually talking about the conversion of ISP to PPE, not vice versa, so the argument that you can't power PSI-only devices with PPE is irrelevant. I kinda feel like there was a spell that converts PPE to ISP on a 2-1 basis the same there's a psi-power to do the opposite, but I could be wrong about the spell. But again that's not really relevant anyway.

[Crazy Lou]

But you are wrong drewkitty, Psychic characters can power TW devices using their ISP at a rate of 2 ISP per each 1 PPE needed.

That is not converting from ISP to PPE, it is 'Just' powering the TW thingy from a different type of power.

Sort of like how you can now (or shortly in the future) power a car by gas (ppe) or Electricity (isp) now but the two power sources are totally different.

FYI your analogy doesn't really work. Powering a car IS possible (already -- see the tesla roadster for an excellent example) with electricity, and it is possible with gas also. But you need completely different internal systems for each way to work. A TW device works off PPE or ISP without any extra designing for the ISP to also work. This is because ISP is basically an internal and "unrefined" version of PPE (and thus need's to be expended in a 2-1 ration for equivalent effects.

[Killer Cyborg]

emulate was just his word. All the actual description says is "ISP cost: 10 points; the rest of the energy is drawn from artificial sources." (page 154 if you care). Thus, it is not specific, but suggests at least the possibility of a conversion. And it certainly doesn't point against one.

I agree with this assessment- the interpretation that the device is using electricity instead of ISP does have some basis in the text.

An alternate idea is that a psi-sword is made up partially of a form of energy that is replicable through technological means; part of the damage comes from heat, or electricity, or some kind of particle field that the gauntlet is capable of generating in its own right, even though it doesn't do anything without the psionic's mind to focus the energy and blend it with other energies to form the psi-sword.
The gauntlet might be simply using technological means to provide a sort of scaffolding for the power to build around, if you get my meaning.
Same with the Psi-Shield function.

Also, one problem with the ISP Generation theory is that the glove only helps with the two powers listed- it doesn't provide any ISP that can be used for any other powers that the psychic might have.

As a tangent:
Notice that the Electrokinesis function does NOT mention a reduced cost or that the tech power source is helping out with that power in any way, which is odd because it should be either easier (if the glove is producing any effects in its own right) or at least as easy (if the glove is making ISP).

[drewkitty ~..~]

Dude, I gave the exact quote from the book. "Emulate" was not a word in the book. Therefore you can't say "the book should've said emulate, because emulation, not conversion, is the only the only possible explanation." Because it's not the only explanation. The other explanation would be that the electricity is being converted to "effective ISP" or, for simplicity's sake, "ISP."

The mundane power source would be powering the effect, not being converted to ISP.

----------------------------------

ISP: the power of the mind

PPE: the energy of the body and soul
Chi: the energy of the body and spirit

Notice that Chi and PPE share a part of their nature, while ISP does not. That is why you can convert between PPE and Chi.

Therefor, you can not convert between ISP and PPE. Nor can you convert between ISP and Chi.

Using ISP to power a TW thing Does Not convert the ISP to PPE, the ISP just powers the TW thing.

(No, Chi is not ISP like the dumb/stupid/burned in effregee rifts china books says.)

[drewkitty ~..~]

But you are wrong drewkitty, Psychic characters can power TW devices using their ISP at a rate of 2 ISP per each 1 PPE needed.

That is not converting from ISP to PPE, it is 'Just' powering the TW thingy from a different type of power.

Sort of like how you can now (or shortly in the future) power a car by gas (ppe) or Electricity (isp) now but the two power sources are totally different.

FYI your analogy doesn't really work. Powering a car IS possible (already -- see the tesla roadster for an excellent example) with electricity, and it is possible with gas also. But you need completely different internal systems for each way to work. ...snip

Plug in hybrids is what I was thinking of apparently.

Yes, I've know about the tesla roadster for years. But with a 100k price tag it is out of most people $ range.
Maybe I should of said something about the affordability of the getting, or that 'there aren't any production model plug in hybrids in the US atm. But I though to keep it simple. And it does not fit the analogy of being able to use two different forms of fuel.

The only other 'car' that is close to being able to be used in the analogy is the Flex fuel 'car' that can use ether gas or ethanol. But that would be more like comparing PPE and Chi, to an extent.

[Nightmaster]

To have ISP, You need to have a Living Mind to make the ISP. And Only Magic can store the power from the ISP once it is outside the living mind. (this is not like SW where droids can, if given enough time, use the force)
There is no "artificial ISP", the glove only uses a power emulation. Which is not ISP. The power Emulations Can Not be used to power a TW device. It has to be ISP, PPE, or Chi.
(for references for what Chi is, see the N&S book)

We are not discusing from where ISP is originated or what can store ISP.

We are talking about a technological device that creates 20 ISP using electricity to activate a psi power that requires 30 ISP to be used. Period

Since the device in question can do that, logic dictates that the same aproach can be used to power a TW device.

The only difference is the fact that the energy being used is not PPE but ISP that is generated by the nuclear power source of the device. After all ISP can power TW devices

But you are wrong drewkitty, Psychic characters can power TW devices using their ISP at a rate of 2 ISP per each 1 PPE needed.

TW stuff is powered to a set level of "energy". While either PPE or ISP can be used to power the tw stuff, ISP only has 50% of the power in it as PPE.
There is No Conversion.

If there was conversion in TW, then you could power PSI-Tech and psi-Gizmoter items with PPE to, which does not happen.

------------------------------------------

Thinking about this now, while it made game seance to have both Psi and magic able to power TW devices, for ease of play, in discussions like this one it make things a pain in the @$$.

The term "Conversion" is just that, a term. Its a logical assumption since you need 2 ISP to power 1 PPE worth of energy into any TW device described so far in all the books that Palladium have ever released.

Now if you dont like the thing about ISP being used to power TW devices or using that loop hole that the Psyscape book presented to allow electricity to power TW devices then dont use or allow it in your games but the FACT remain that the example exist in canon.

What comes after is just a logical evolution based on the interaction of ISP and TW devices.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Note, I abbreviated some words because I don't like typing out fully.

The link to the brain combined with the char's psionic abilities enables even a minor psychics to mimic the sup-Psi powers of Psi-Sword, Psi shield, and electrokinesis. Unfortunately, the result is a comparatively weak and limited imitation that has failed to meet expectations.

Note the words 'mimic' and 'imitation'.

--------------------------------------

None of the text hints at the conversion of electrical power to ISP, but it does hint the use electromagnetism in the mimicking of the Sup-Psi powers.

--------------------------------------

We are talking about a technological device that creates 20 ISP using electricity to activate a psi power that requires 30 ISP to be used. Period

Since the device in question can do that, logic dictates that the same approach can be used to power a TW device.

The only difference is the fact that the energy being used is not PPE but ISP that is generated by the nuclear power source of the device. After all ISP can power TW devices

1) I'm not arguing that ISP can't power TW devices.
2) I am trying to get across is that a Mundane power source Can Not be turned into a Mystical power source.
This is what I think you are missing. Mystical power can only be derived from Living things.

All saturated with the teachings of Darwinism that the popular religion of the western world espouses you are missing the point that Life is different from every other natural reactions in the universe. So different as to set it apart from the "natural order".

All life comes from life.

There can be no conversion of a mundane power into a mystical power.
It would be like trying to cross-breed a whale with a rock.

[Library Ogre]

2) I am trying to get across is that a Mundane power source Can Not be turned into a Mystical power source.
This is what I think you are missing. Mystical power can only be derived from Living things.

Ley lines. Elemental magic. Stone Magic. Gem powers.

[drewkitty ~..~]

2) I am trying to get across is that a Mundane power source Can Not be turned into a Mystical power source.
This is what I think you are missing. Mystical power can only be derived from Living things.

Ley lines. Elemental magic. Stone Magic. Gem powers.

LL: they flared because of all the people dyeing causing the coming of the rifts, thus LL can be though of as dry wells for PPE. Or it might be that LL just concentrate the ambient PPE into themselves, but then again LL are mystical in nature.

Elemental magic depends on a link to Super-Nat elementals for it to work.

Stone magic: the stone mage's power affects the rock. If you are referring to how the stone pyramids work.... the stone mage causes the rock to gather power from the surrounding so he can use it later.

Gem powers: the stone mage infuses the gems with his power, the matrix in the gems affects the power to make spells.

[Killer Cyborg]

Except it not an example of Psi powers being fueled by electricity. The CS Psionic Weapon Gauntlet does not provide the psionics powers of psi-sword, psi-shield, and electrokinesis. This is directly pulled from the weapons description, it "... enables even Minor Psychics to mimic the Super Psionic powers of Psi-Sword, Psi-Shield, and Electrokinesis." Psyscape pg.154. So it mimics those powers, as in provides powers that imiatate those psionic powers, but are not actually those psionic powers. So you can't just say the electricity is making up for the ISP deficiency of those powers, because in reference to the weapon gauntlet, it is not provideing those actual powers.

Correct.

[Library Ogre]

LL: they flared because of all the people dyeing causing the coming of the rifts, thus LL can be though of as dry wells for PPE. Or it might be that LL just concentrate the ambient PPE into themselves, but then again LL are mystical in nature.

But they are not, themselves, dependent upon living things. While they react to living things, so does soil. Ley lines exist in the depths of space, after all.

Elemental magic depends on a link to Super-Nat elementals for it to work.

Which are not living... not in any sense that would be biologically recognized, at least. They're mystical energy that, on our plane, forms a body of pure element.

Stone magic: the stone mage's power affects the rock. If you are referring to how the stone pyramids work.... the stone mage causes the rock to gather power from the surrounding so he can use it later.

Page 104 of Atlantis implies that pyramids of stone do this naturally; since Stone Masters don't know how it works, they can't be causing it to do anything except what it allows. Several things (slowing the aging process, healing, storage of PPE, reduction of ley line storms) happen independent of any stone mage controlling them.

Gem powers: the stone mage infuses the gems with his power, the matrix in the gems affects the power to make spells.

Not according to the book. Page 102 says that the mage draws the power out of the stones, not that he gives them power; it's a natural property of stones, just like oil burns.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Elemental magic depends on a link to Super-Nat elementals for it to work.

Which are not living... not in any sense that would be biologically recognized, at least. They're mystical energy that, on our plane, forms a body of pure element.

Thank you for supporting my statement.

To reference a geek quote "We are not of flesh and bone, Luminous beings we are."

[Nightmaster]

1) I'm not arguing that ISP can't power TW devices.
2) I am trying to get across is that a Mundane power source Can Not be turned into a Mystical power source.
This is what I think you are missing. Mystical power can only be derived from Living things.

All saturated with the teachings of Darwinism that the popular religion of the western world espouses you are missing the point that Life is different from every other natural reactions in the universe. So different as to set it apart from the "natural order".

I think its you that is missing the point.

I am not talking about a direct conversion from electricity to PPE in the first case but that is possible. Several books portrait PPE as a "natural energy" that exist everywhere regardless of the existence of living beings of any kind. Hell there are Ley Lines even in the deep of space as Mark Hall quoted (Rifts Phase World book).

The possibility of converting electricity into PPE does exist because of the said psi device. Would it be easy to do? no.

Since technology (in the books) was made possible to "create", "Emulate", "Mimic" (or whatever word you decide to use) ISP and since with ISP you can power a TW device then the possibility of doing the same with PPE is not out of hand. In fact it would be a logic evolution for this technology in the first place.

It would take years, even decades or centuries but the possibility is there and you cant deny it.

Theres however a workaround to the problem on short term. Create a device that creates the ISP and then use that "artificial" ISP to power a connected TW device.

[Killer Cyborg]

Since technology (in the books) was made possible to "create", "Emulate", "Mimic" (or whatever word you decide to use) ISP and since with ISP you can power a TW device then the possibility of doing the same with PPE is not out of hand. In fact it would be a logic evolution for this technology in the first place.

That's the thing- the device doesn't emulate ISP, it emulates psychic powers.

[Nightmaster]

Since technology (in the books) was made possible to "create", "Emulate", "Mimic" (or whatever word you decide to use) ISP and since with ISP you can power a TW device then the possibility of doing the same with PPE is not out of hand. In fact it would be a logic evolution for this technology in the first place.

That's the thing- the device doesn't emulate ISP, it emulates psychic powers.

Then the text that say that the remaining 20 ISP needed to for activation of the power is delivered from a nuclear power source is disregarded by you? If that is not ISP generation then I dont know what it is.

The text clearly indicates that for all intents and purposes 20 ISP are provided by a nuclear battery to the activation of the psi-power, in this case the Psi-Sword power. Otherwise there would still be a need of 30 ISP for it to be activated by the user.

If the device was only emulating a psi-power for a minor psychic to use, then the user would still need to pay the 30 ISP needed for the activation of that power and the device would then allow the user to focus and create a psi-sword. The device dont do that, otherwise why the need for a nuclear power source?

[Library Ogre]

Elemental magic depends on a link to Super-Nat elementals for it to work.

Which are not living... not in any sense that would be biologically recognized, at least. They're mystical energy that, on our plane, forms a body of pure element.

Thank you for supporting my statement.

To reference a geek quote "We are not of flesh and bone, Luminous beings we are."

Your point that mystical energy can only come from life? And these are mystical energy which exist independent of life?

[Nightmaster]

I'm going to leave aside the question of whether PPE only comes from life - it certainly can come from things which are not life by modern scientific measurement, which to me suggests it could come from all kinds of places, but to each his own.

What I would like to talk about is the Psionic Weapon Gauntlet, and I'm going to use an analogy to do it because analogies are rad.

Imagine a technologically advanced flamethrower. It uses an electric pump to shoot out its fuel to long range without waste, electronic regulation systems to make sure that the fuel is sprayed as efficiently as possible, and an electric lighter to ensure that there are no misfires. The process by which the fuel is refined is also very advanced. Computers are used to monitor the refining process and adjust it as needed so that as much useful flamethrower fuel as possible is gotten out of the raw petrochemicals.

In short, electricity is being used in a variety of ways to reduce the amount of petrochemical required to cause a given amount of fiery mayhem with your flamethrower, just as electricity is used in the gauntlet to reduce the amount of ISP required to cause a given amount of stabbing mayhem with your psi-sword. Your flamethrower will not run without fuel no matter how well-charged the batteries are, just as your psionic weapon gauntlet will not create a psi-sword for a non-psychic. And, just as the flamethrower does not convert electricity into petrochemicals, I would suggest that the psionic weapon gauntlet does not convert electricity into ISP, or emulate ISP, or any such thing.

What the psionic weapon gauntlet does suggest is that electrical technology can be used to directly interfere with or modify psionic processes. This could certainly be of interest to a techno-wizard, and you can make a strong case for extrapolating that a TW could potentially use technology derived from the gauntlet to improve the PPE efficiency of his devices. I do not, however, think that the psionic weapon gauntlet implies that you could use an electrically-powered source to recharge a caster's PPE or power a TW device on its own.

Except that this analogy is not the case with the gauntlet.

Quoting from Rifts Psyscape page 154:

Psi-Sword: 2D6 M.D., three foot (0.9 m) length of energy, maximum duration: 10 minutes. Requires a 15 minute break between periods of use that last 5-10 minutes. I.S.P. Cost: 10 points; the rest of the energy is drawn from artificial sources. Vibro-B lades inflict equivalent damage and are much cheaper to produce.

Take notice of the underlined part. It clearly state that the remaining ISP to activate the power comes from artificial sources. In this case the description of the gauntlet again clear state that a "An electromagnetic battery and mini-nuclear power cell" are the source of energy of the device.

This is not a case of emulation. This a direct reference to electricity being converted into ISP to help power a psi-power the user of the gauntlet dont have.

[Killer Cyborg]

Since technology (in the books) was made possible to "create", "Emulate", "Mimic" (or whatever word you decide to use) ISP and since with ISP you can power a TW device then the possibility of doing the same with PPE is not out of hand. In fact it would be a logic evolution for this technology in the first place.

That's the thing- the device doesn't emulate ISP, it emulates psychic powers.

Then the text that say that the remaining 20 ISP needed to for activation of the power is delivered from a nuclear power source is disregarded by you? If that is not ISP generation then I dont know what it is.

Except, I don't believe that's what the book actually says.
If I'm wrong, quote the exact passage that says that.

The text clearly indicates that for all intents and purposes 20 ISP are provided by a nuclear battery to the activation of the psi-power, in this case the Psi-Sword power. Otherwise there would still be a need of 30 ISP for it to be activated by the user.

I've already addressed this.

[Killer Cyborg]

Quoting from Rifts Psyscape page 154:

Psi-Sword: 2D6 M.D., three foot (0.9 m) length of energy, maximum duration: 10 minutes. Requires a 15 minute break between periods of use that last 5-10 minutes. I.S.P. Cost: 10 points; the rest of the energy is drawn from artificial sources. Vibro-B lades inflict equivalent damage and are much cheaper to produce.

Take notice of the underlined part. It clearly state that the remaining ISP to activate the power comes from artificial sources.

Again, no.
It says "the rest of the energy," not "the rest of the ISP."

[Nightmaster]

Quoting from Rifts Psyscape page 154:

Psi-Sword: 2D6 M.D., three foot (0.9 m) length of energy, maximum duration: 10 minutes. Requires a 15 minute break between periods of use that last 5-10 minutes. I.S.P. Cost: 10 points; the rest of the energy is drawn from artificial sources. Vibro-B lades inflict equivalent damage and are much cheaper to produce.

Take notice of the underlined part. It clearly state that the remaining ISP to activate the power comes from artificial sources.

Again, no.
It says "the rest of the energy," not "the rest of the ISP."

Sorry but unless we are playing two different games there is no other energy besides ISP used to activate the power of psi-sword or any other psi power.

The line clearly say "ISP Cost" and a value. That value is 10 ISP for activation, the psi-sword power cost 30 ISP to activate and the text say that the rest is drawn from artificial sources. Since the user only need to pay 10 ISP, logic dictates that the "rest" in the description means the 20 ISP that he is not paying and that those 20 ISP are provided by the power source of the gauntlet.

Now its my time to ask you to quote from where you drawn that conclusion of yours. My conclusion is based on logic and the text in the book.

[Killer Cyborg]

Quoting from Rifts Psyscape page 154:

Psi-Sword: 2D6 M.D., three foot (0.9 m) length of energy, maximum duration: 10 minutes. Requires a 15 minute break between periods of use that last 5-10 minutes. I.S.P. Cost: 10 points; the rest of the energy is drawn from artificial sources. Vibro-B lades inflict equivalent damage and are much cheaper to produce.

Take notice of the underlined part. It clearly state that the remaining ISP to activate the power comes from artificial sources.

Again, no.
It says "the rest of the energy," not "the rest of the ISP."

Sorry but unless we are playing two different games there is no other energy besides ISP used to activate the power of psi-sword or any other psi power.

Never said their was.
How about you go back and read my previous posts on the subject, so I don't have to rehash this for you?

Edit:
(On the other hand, mutant animals get psionic powers without any ISP, so obviously there are other ways to power psionics.)

[Nightmaster]

Quoting from Rifts Psyscape page 154:

Psi-Sword: 2D6 M.D., three foot (0.9 m) length of energy, maximum duration: 10 minutes. Requires a 15 minute break between periods of use that last 5-10 minutes. I.S.P. Cost: 10 points; the rest of the energy is drawn from artificial sources. Vibro-B lades inflict equivalent damage and are much cheaper to produce.

Take notice of the underlined part. It clearly state that the remaining ISP to activate the power comes from artificial sources.

Again, no.
It says "the rest of the energy," not "the rest of the ISP."

Sorry but unless we are playing two different games there is no other energy besides ISP used to activate the power of psi-sword or any other psi power.

Never said their was.
How about you go back and read my previous posts on the subject, so I don't have to rehash this for you?

Edit:
(On the other hand, mutant animals get psionic powers without any ISP, so obviously there are other ways to power psionics.)

I already have and dont see the logic of your argument.

If it is the word "mimic" then its a weak one because even if the gauntlet "mimic" those powers it still need ISP to activate then and again the gauntlets electric power source provides 2/3 of the required ISP for the activation of those powers.

As for mutant animals you are wrong. As an example I point the dog boy that have only one power that dont requires ISP. All others need ISP and he gets ME+1D6x10 ISP + 10 ISP per level.
Ref. Rifts Lone Star page 33, itens 4 and 5

[Killer Cyborg]

How about you go back and read my previous posts on the subject, so I don't have to rehash this for you?

Edit:
(On the other hand, mutant animals get psionic powers without any ISP, so obviously there are other ways to power psionics.)

I already have and dont see the logic of your argument.

Then...
a) Behave as if you have read it, instead of bring up already addressed points as if they were new.
b) Ask polite questions about the parts that confuse you.

As for mutant animals you are wrong. As an example I point the dog boy that have only one power that dont requires ISP. All others need ISP and he gets ME+1D6x10 ISP + 10 ISP per level.
Ref. Rifts Lone Star page 33, itens 4 and 5

As an example, I point to every mutant animal in TMNT, AtB, and HU- all of which are fully compatible with Rifts and do not gain ISP if they rift in from their own world. (as per Rifts p. 113)
I likewise point you to CB1, where it describes mutant animals born/created on Rifts Earth, and instructs you to roll them up as you normally would using the rules from TMNT/AtB/HU.

[Nightmaster]

Sorry but unless we are playing two different games there is no other energy besides ISP used to activate the power of psi-sword or any other psi power.

Johnny the Telekinetic strains to lift the massive boulder. He does not have enough ISP left to carry its full weight, but an electric winch is also pulling upwards on it. Johnny's effort finally drags the boulder slowly upwards, the electric winch providing the rest of the energy needed to move the mighty stone.

Did the winch convert electricity into ISP?

Dont know from where you got an analogy like that one

Really do you care to explain?

[Nightmaster]

How about you go back and read my previous posts on the subject, so I don't have to rehash this for you?

Edit:
(On the other hand, mutant animals get psionic powers without any ISP, so obviously there are other ways to power psionics.)

I already have and dont see the logic of your argument.

Then...
a) Behave as if you have read it, instead of bring up already addressed points as if they were new.
b) Ask polite questions about the parts that confuse you.

Well I am asking for you to explain.

As for mutant animals you are wrong. As an example I point the dog boy that have only one power that dont requires ISP. All others need ISP and he gets ME+1D6x10 ISP + 10 ISP per level.
Ref. Rifts Lone Star page 33, itens 4 and 5

As an example, I point to every mutant animal in TMNT, AtB, and HU- all of which are fully compatible with Rifts and do not gain ISP if they rift in from their own world.
I likewise point you to CB1, where it describes mutant animals born/created on Rifts Earth, and instructs you to roll them up as you normally would using the rules from TMNT/AtB/HU.

I though you were talking about Rifts mutant animals. Also I must point that Rifts Lone Star have (IMHO) superseded the information on CB1 regarding mutant animals indigeneous to Rifts Earth and their stats (principally psionics).

[Killer Cyborg]

How about you go back and read my previous posts on the subject, so I don't have to rehash this for you?

Edit:
(On the other hand, mutant animals get psionic powers without any ISP, so obviously there are other ways to power psionics.)

I already have and dont see the logic of your argument.

Then...
a) Behave as if you have read it, instead of bring up already addressed points as if they were new.
b) Ask polite questions about the parts that confuse you.

Well I am asking for you to explain.

Okay- what part exactly?
Because I've already explained the whole thing once, and I don't think that repeating myself would do much good.
So where did I lose you?

As for mutant animals you are wrong. As an example I point the dog boy that have only one power that dont requires ISP. All others need ISP and he gets ME+1D6x10 ISP + 10 ISP per level.
Ref. Rifts Lone Star page 33, itens 4 and 5

As an example, I point to every mutant animal in TMNT, AtB, and HU- all of which are fully compatible with Rifts and do not gain ISP if they rift in from their own world.
I likewise point you to CB1, where it describes mutant animals born/created on Rifts Earth, and instructs you to roll them up as you normally would using the rules from TMNT/AtB/HU.

I though you were talking about Rifts mutant animals. Also I must point that Rifts Lone Star have (IMHO) superseded the information on CB1 regarding mutant animals indigeneous to Rifts Earth and their stats (principally psionics).

Cite the passage in Lone Star that replaces the information in CB1.

[Nightmaster]

Cite the passage in Lone Star that replaces the information in CB1.

I, too, am very interested in page numbers and citations on this matter. I thought Lone Star only covered artificial, genetically engineered mutant animals, and some canon Rifts material more recent than CB1 would be very nice to have.

There is no line saying it. Its logic being applied here.

The reason is two fold:

1st. The Rifts Lone Star book is newer than the old CB1.

2nd. The information on CB1 regarding mutant animals indigenous to Rifts Earth are all examples of CS experiments (read the page 38 of CB1 on Step 3: Cause of Mutation).

So if the CB1 is a old book, and the Lone Star book is a new one, and both deal with mutant animals that are the result of genetic engineering then what book is more accurate? Can you answer me?

[cchopps]

Unfortunately, the result is a comparatively weak and limited imitation that has failed to meet expectations.

I like on page 155 under the description of the TW Psi-Blocker helmet it says "Note: Deployed by Special Forces, Psi-Battalion and ISS, as well as regular army on special assignments." Some heads are gonna roll!

Getting back to the original topic, I noticed the other day that in Dimension Book 3: Phase World Sourcebook on page 97 the Dwarven Iron Ship has a "PPE Generator" that produces 100 PPE a minute and can store up to 20,000 PPE! The description says that they are TW constructs, but as difficult to create as a greatest rune weapon. No explanation as to how the generators work or the requirements to make.

C. Chopps

[Danger]

Hell. No.

[cchopps]

Hell. No.

Dude, if Tolkeen had gotten their hands on one of these babies....

That would be a great plot for some Tolkeen vengeance squad. Head off to the Anvil Galaxy to kidnap an Anvil Dwarf and force him to create the PPE Generator.