Stationary or Mobile

[filo_clarke]

My players have acquired a passenger train and christened her “Eve of Destruction”. They roll town-to-town along the lines scavenging for diesel fuel and other supplies while taking on survivors and occasionally adding new cars to the engine. “Nothing stops the Main Street Pain Train, Baby!” Is a common phrase in the campaign.

[filo_clarke]

They have set up one car as an engineering room, where equipment and weapons are maintained. They have a CB-radio/Broadband set up to listen for transmissions from survivors, and they only stop in places where they receive messages, or where there are obvious signs of human life. For gas, they have mapped the larger fuel depots on the main lines ahead of them, and they make for them when need arises.

You are correct though, getting a train moving provides a clever GM ample opportunity for "things" to get on board, or simply dragged along for discovery later.

The most innovative thing they have done to date was to have a particularly artistic PC paint a mural on the side of the engine: A naked woman riding a clamshell, clutching two pistols, with ammo-belts draped around her. Hence; Eve of Destruction

[Oberoth]

The campaign I'm starting has the characters trapped in a small town. They will have to find a way out themselves but not before they discover the plot line. There will be several ways for them to escape as I didn't want it to be completely linear.

[Kelorin]

In the campaign I was going to run, the PC's thought of the same idea - basing themselves on a train. There are several advantages: Runs on diesel, hard to attack, mobile. But there is one big disadvantage too: Travels along a predictable path - While this isn't relevant to zombies, it is relevant to raiders, rogue military, and death cultists, any of whom can remove track sections, or otherwise block the track and then box the train in from reversing.

Personally, I like the idea of a road convoy - something like in Resident Evil: Exctinction. The only difference is that the lead vehicle needs to be dumptruck with an angled snowplough attachment:
http://www.freefoto.com/images/16/02/16_02_8---Snow-Plough--Kangamangus-Highway--New-Hampshire_web.jpg

[Quantum07]

My group is stationary, in Denver. We found a cliff face outside of the city, and carved out a cave. It is slowly being expanded, but it started just big enough to launch and land a hang glider in. Has a rope, but my character is a CIA sniper (Apocalyptic Soldier) who can climb the cliff, so the rope isn't down for anyone. We are making rooms next It is pretty sweet. Plus, we do the random tables, and thought it was hilarious when we found a message in a car that said Denver was safe. We didn't know about that on the tables until after we set what city

[Razzinold]

Haven't got the chance to play a DR game yet, but when I do, my vote is to get a moving convoy going. At first (like someone else mentioned) I would have it like RE:Extinction, mutiple vehicles serving diffrent functions, i.e. comms, scout, etc. But then I read further down the list and saw that people were stuck in the mud. This got me thinking, I would only use 4x4/off road vehicles. Kinda like the ones you see in magazines, you could build them/steal them. I would use hummers (military ones if I could get them) as my larger vehicles to set up comms and medical/work shop, especially the station wagon style hummer, or 4x4 chevy suburban

or this neat one if I went to the arctic I also might take one of the 4x4 suburbans (or large hummers) and leave off the cap and transport a couple of dirtbikes to be used as scout bikes (need some kind of ramp built onto the tailgate of the truck so they can get on and off the truck quickly)

quick little edit here, I do see the benefit of RE:extinction, the semi for hauling things/battering ram, but that is good in the city, but unless you heavily modified the mini bus and stuff you wouldn't go off road, I think i'm gonna do some more research and find a good substiture for a semi that had good off road capabilities and could haul stuff without a trailer.

edit again, ok at first glance I think we may have a winner, just have to do a little more reading on it
ps no i don't have a prefference to red vehicles (Even though the car is own is red.... I swear it's all a coincedence )

[Quantum07]

You know, I've always thought that with Palladium games, karma/fate/whatever has some weird connection back to the actual games. And this proves it.

Anyhow, great scenario. Using a cliff face and drilling to create a safe haven. Are you sure that your drilling is being done correctly, though? Not gonna accidentally punch through the top/sides/back of the cliff and run into zeds? (If I was the GM, yes, I would be this sick and have this happen. )

We rolled skill checks, and sadly it was all below the rolls for the construction. And thus, Hang Gliding Zombies will have to invade sometime. But stationary, outside a good raid zone, seems best.

[Arnie100]

Mine's a little bit of both! We have a base camp (basically a fort) we stay at and we roam around when we need supplies like ammo, food, water, medicine; you know, the usual stuff. It got really interesting when our camp got attacked by a couple of hundred zombies!!!

[MaxxSterling]

Oh heck, mine is mobile, but terrible. They are heading about 800 miles From Alabama to Pennsylvania. I have the major roadways blocked, so it's through hee-haw country the whole way, already had them hit an impass outside of Nashville, TN and now they're walking... I don't know who's plan that was, but I think walking is definetely the way to go... If you WANT to die. And as a side note, those 3 large crosses you often see on the sides of highways, at least in this part of the country, those make excellent posts for Death Cults and Savages to chain Zombie sacrifices to.

[Levi]

My players have joined a survivor camp on Beaver Island in the Lake Michigan. However, they use a couple boats and a newly acquired helicopter to make trips to shore for supplies. So the adventures are mobile while the campaign is stationary. It’s been fun and interesting.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

My group is stationary, in Denver. We found a cliff face outside of the city, and carved out a cave. It is slowly being expanded, but it started just big enough to launch and land a hang glider in. Has a rope, but my character is a CIA sniper (Apocalyptic Soldier) who can climb the cliff, so the rope isn't down for anyone. We are making rooms next It is pretty sweet. Plus, we do the random tables, and thought it was hilarious when we found a message in a car that said Denver was safe. We didn't know about that on the tables until after we set what city

I so want in on that.

[psam_rage]

I have yet to get into a DR game yet... but I would definitely go for one of these.

[asajosh]

Amazing, I logged in after a debate with a player to post a poll on this very topic in DR.

Right now the players are mobile, in a small convoy consisting of an RV, a dirtbike, and a stolen police car. I have an NPC in the group (several actually) who may want to try settling down somewhere.

I contend that it would be wise to find a large building (a Home Depot, or bulk supply store, etc), clear out any zeds and fortify their position. In the right building there is supplies a-plenty, building materials, protection. Now I'm not advocating fighting to the last man over a piece of turf. By all means, keep working vehicles handy. I'm just a big fan of having a strong walled place to call "home", even if temporarily. There's also something to be said for knowing your surroundings.

He believes that it's always better to keep moving. Steal a house boat and travel the waterways, stopping only to fuel up, hunt, or raid.

I like the idea of a comandeered train, sort of the best of both worlds

I have yet to get into a DR game yet... but I would definitely go for one of these.

I like this one too. Or an air craft carrier. But there is probably a steep learning curve to pilot one.

[psam_rage]

.... Yeah and I think the minimum crew to keep it running efficiently in a non-combat situation is like 10 or 20.

[Sir Blayse]

Personally I like the idea of a mobile base, I posted about my idea in another thread for ultimate raid truck, but the base would be one of those off-road truck trains from Australia. The group will be staying in the Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Nevada, and Texas regions- unless something major happens. No plans yet for permanent base- but eventually that will probably have to happen, you can't raid forever. The group is growing and may be going to try something bold, like securing a small town and making it defendable, even had one joke about going to the Alamo and using it for a base...

[Thinyser]

Though I have yet to play a DR campaign I've thought of a way I would go mobile. I would go for a mobile convoy consisting of two 3-trailer road trains, a big rig tow truck with a snowplow blade, a hummer and a few motorcycles.

The motor cycles run point and gather small supplies in towns.

The hummer follows up the rear and can fall back assisted by the motorcycles to chase of any zed or non zed attackers.

The big rig tow truck makes room for the road trains.

The two road trains are arranged as follows.

Both haul a tanker trailer, one of diesel and one that has been converted from a milk tanker to a divided one that holds both water and gasoline.

The one with the diesel has a refridgerated trailer for storing produce and has a area up in front by the cooling unit that has been walled off with styrofoam that gets (and stays) well below freezing and would be used for storing meat. This trailer has been covered in solar cells and can run the cooler of either this or a small diesel generator. This train has an armored "living quarters" trailer as the final of the 3. It also is roofed in solar cells and has a small bathroom and kitchen (outfitted with both propane stove oven and a wood burning stove. An entertainment area is also set up with 50" flat pannel and a good selection of blue-ray discs.

The Water/Gasoline train has as its second car a hardware storage/workshop trailer with a small metal working machine shop which can fabricate repair parts for about 80% of what might be needed out of raw steel. Outfited with welder and plasma cutter, pipe bender, pressbreak, drill press, and assundry other tools including a metal lathe and even a small CNC cabinet! The final trailer here is the armory and contains all the weapons and ammo that the characters scrounge and don't carry on them all the time, as well as other advernturing supplies like ropes, backpacks, bicycles, flashlights, batteries, canteens, etc. etc. This armory trailer has a small forge that can heat steel to melting point using a diesel fired blast furncace (uses 110 gallons of diesel to melt 5 pounds of steel) also can melt lower MP metals such as lead and copper which uses much less fuel (60 & 75 gallons/5 lbs respectivly) to melt because of their much lower melting points. This produces a huge soot cloud that can be seen for 20 miles in all directions in the daytime. At night the soot cloud is all but invisible as one cannot tell its there except for the blotted out stars which happens with normal clouds too. Intended to forge rough shapes (to be milled into parts in the machine shop) as well as casting bullets (when/if the characters ever run out of premade ammo). Both the machine shop and the armory are covered in solar cells and feed the electricity to the machine shop.

Over time the group would outfit the trailers with hydrolic powered sliding skirts that can be lowered to protect the wheels and slid out and prevent zeds from getting under the trailers. They could then park them side by side angeling the cabs to touch at their noses but leaving about 12 foot between at the rear that could be closed by either steel plates or gates hydrolically swung into position and have a very secure courtyard. Cover this inbetween area with tarps and it would be out of the weather as well.

Travel from place to place restocking the tanker trailers with diesel, gasoline, and water while scavenging for food and other supplies.

[psam_rage]

My group is currently stationary... but that's because they are cut off from there chopper by a horde of several hundred, among which are 3 thinkers. Poor Lost little coalition soldiers they are.

[Beatmeclever]

My group had been mobile up until very recently. They started out in Denver, then when one of the players suggested that they try to find better surroundings, they ended up traveling from Denver to San Diego, then to Seattle, Chicago, Miami, and New Orleans.

To start the game, each player created a character based on themselves; however, over the course of the group's travels as characters died, new characters joined. The group is currently a University Professor (the only original character in the group), a Scrounger who joined in San Diego, a Soldier (Air Force Pararescue Jumper) who joined in Seattle, a Hound Master that joined in Chicago, and a Medical Doctor who joined in New Orleans. The group has returned to the Denver area when they learned of an abandoned Atlas F missile complex that was being renovated prior to the wave. Just last night the group finally finished clearing the complex of Zeds.

Here is the description of the "World's End" Facility:
This facility was originally designed as an ICBM (Intercontinental Ballistic Missile) launch facility buried two hundred feet into the Colorado (USA) countryside. Built to withstand a direct nuclear attack, the “World’s End” facility has remained unused and in mothballs until now.
With an innovative approach, this once unusable space can become an appealing and attractive fortification, allowing for safety, security, research, and storage of art treasures.
As can be imagined, gaining entrance into the facility is practically impossible with walls of heavily re-enforced concrete and steel up to fifteen feet thick, blast doors up to six feet thick, and up to 150 tons in weight buried up to 200ft deep underground into the surrounding countryside.
General Layout
It is positioned on a site some 20 acres in size of which 5 acres is surrounded with a concertina and barbed wire topped chain link security fence with substantial gates as the first noticeable point of security.
The site is nestled in a secluded and elevated position with mainly prairie grass and outcrops of small dense pine trees and scrub marking the entrance to the facility. Extensive planting has been done immediately surrounding the site to further disguise the entrance to the entry portal.
The entry portal is a small hanger deck and parking space for Helicopters and RV’s/SUV’s (Recreational Vehicles/Sports Utility Vehicles) although there is nothing above ground level to suggest the large-scale site that exists beneath the earth’s surface.
The Command Complex
The Command Complex has two levels with approximately 2,500 sq ft of floor space, not including the stairwells and vestibule, a large enough space for three bedrooms with in-suite bathrooms and an adjoining emergency exit. A separate staircase has also been built into the design to the lower level which contains a large contemporary kitchen, living room and utility plus storage space.
On the remaining level of the Command Complex there are two further blast doors leading into the former silo access tunnel, a 40-foot by 10-foot passageway with two more blast door locks leading onto level 2, the Main Silo Complex consists of 14 individual levels.
Main Silo Complex (14 levels)
During the Cold War this space housed the gigantic Atlas F ICBM Rocket. It now makes way for 14 levels of living space, entertainment sections and storage space.
The silo itself runs 200ft directly into the earth with a 50-foot diameter allowing for up to fourteen floor levels of varying height in the complex. More than enough room for a hydroponic garden, machine shop, armory, entertainment area, gymnasium and weight room, cinema, swimming pool, additional accommodation space, and vast amounts of secure, private and hermetically sealed areas any other purposes.
Level 1 – ‘The Penthouse’
Formerly known as the ‘penthouse’ when used by the military with two enormous blast proof launch doors in the ceiling of this level, each weighing over 100 tons, providing an airtight super hardened seal from the outside world, opened by hydraulic lifters. Level 1 consists of a loading bay with a 20ft ceiling height, hangar deck, air bio filter system, intake fans, plant and machinery rooms, large water storage tanks, fuel stores and general space for a workshop. A cargo lift is located on this level and provides access to all lower levels within the main silo. The lift is of the standard that you would expect in a luxurious hotel.
Additionally leading from level 1 to level 2 is a loading portal enabling materials to be passed directly through the level.
Level 2
This level houses a loading bay, mineral spring water storage, clean water storage, fuel storage, two generator sets with silenced exhaust systems, chlorination system for potable water, ultraviolet filter banks, general water filters, machinery rooms, pumps, Lithium-6 and Distillation system, and other heating machinery. There is a complete firewall system that ensures safe exit during the possibility of a fire leading directly out through the command complex.
Levels 3, 4, 5
Open Usage
Level 6
General Storage
Level 7
Heavy Storage – This deck layout is fabricated from heavy duty re-enforced floor sections, suitable for 15kn loads/1.5 tons per square meter. This area also has a ceiling height of 12-15ft enabling large heavy goods, etc. to be safely and securely stored.
Level 8
Cold Stores. On this floor are two large cold store fridges.
Level 9
A purpose built, high quality personal 15-seat cinema with the latest surround sound systems and latest and most up to date audio visual projection systems, with individual drink tables next to each luxurious handcrafted leather recliner.
Furthermore there is a large twelve-seat presentation and board room with the most up to date audio visual presentation systems.
Level 10 – Operational Room
This level contains the Control/RADAR/Communications/Surveillance systems for the facility.
Level 11 – Gym & Training Room
This is a multi-purpose space with a comprehensive arrangement of fitness and workout machines, sun beds, televisions, the latest music systems, and massage beds.
Level 12 – Accommodation Level
The Presidential Suite, with 3 bedrooms and an open lounge/kitchen space with suites to the bedrooms, dining room, and study complete this level.
Level 13 – Swimming Pool
The pool complex consists of a 10-15ft deep pool and 50 ft wide area with a raised area that includes a diving board, Jacuzzi, Sauna, and Drench Shower. This raised area hangs 5ft above the water line. The plant room is located on the main deck away from the swimming area, with toilets and changing rooms set to one side of this floor.
Level 14 – Micro-Nuclear Reactor Level
In 2009, Toshiba developed a new class of micro-size Nuclear Reactors that were designed to power individual apartment buildings or city blocks. It was thought that the reactor, which is only 20-feet by 6-feet, would change everything for small remote communities, small businesses, or even a group of neighbors who were fed up with the power companies and wanted more control over their energy needs.
The facility’s lowest level contains four of these micro-reactors. The 200-kilowatt Toshiba designed reactors are engineered to be fail-safe, totally automatic, and will not overheat. Unlike traditional nuclear reactors the micro-reactor uses no control rods to initiate the reaction. The revolutionary technology uses reservoirs of liquid lithium-6, an isotope that is effective at absorbing neutrons. The Lithium-6 reservoirs are connected to a vertical tube that fits into the reactor core. The whole process is self sustaining and can last for up to 40-years, producing electricity for only 5 cents per kilowatt hour, about half the cost of grid energy.

http://www.atlasmissilesilo.com/images/web_atlas_silo1.jpg

I'm planning to let the group stay here just long enough to get lazy and then I'm gonna drop a few Zeds in on them. I think mobile campaigns are more fun than having a Safe Haven, but we'll see.

[Jefffar]

Personally, I like the idea of a road convoy - something like in Resident Evil: Exctinction. The only difference is that the lead vehicle needs to be dumptruck with an angled snowplough attachment:
http://www.freefoto.com/images/16/02/16_02_8---Snow-Plough--Kangamangus-Highway--New-Hampshire_web.jpg

Maybe something more like this one would do better with the zombies.

[Thinyser]

Here is the description of the "World's End" Facility:

Spoiler:

My group had been mobile up until very recently. They started out in Denver, then when one of the players suggested that they try to find better surroundings, they ended up traveling from Denver to San Diego, then to Seattle, Chicago, Miami, and New Orleans.

To start the game, each player created a character based on themselves; however, over the course of the group's travels as characters died, new characters joined. The group is currently a University Professor (the only original character in the group), a Scrounger who joined in San Diego, a Soldier (Air Force Pararescue Jumper) who joined in Seattle, a Hound Master that joined in Chicago, and a Medical Doctor who joined in New Orleans. The group has returned to the Denver area when they learned of an abandoned Atlas F missile complex that was being renovated prior to the wave. Just last night the group finally finished clearing the complex of Zeds.

Here is the description of the "World's End" Facility:
This facility was originally designed as an ICBM (Intercontinental Ballistic Missile) launch facility buried two hundred feet into the Colorado (USA) countryside. Built to withstand a direct nuclear attack, the “World’s End” facility has remained unused and in mothballs until now.
With an innovative approach, this once unusable space can become an appealing and attractive fortification, allowing for safety, security, research, and storage of art treasures.
As can be imagined, gaining entrance into the facility is practically impossible with walls of heavily re-enforced concrete and steel up to fifteen feet thick, blast doors up to six feet thick, and up to 150 tons in weight buried up to 200ft deep underground into the surrounding countryside.
General Layout
It is positioned on a site some 20 acres in size of which 5 acres is surrounded with a concertina and barbed wire topped chain link security fence with substantial gates as the first noticeable point of security.
The site is nestled in a secluded and elevated position with mainly prairie grass and outcrops of small dense pine trees and scrub marking the entrance to the facility. Extensive planting has been done immediately surrounding the site to further disguise the entrance to the entry portal.
The entry portal is a small hanger deck and parking space for Helicopters and RV’s/SUV’s (Recreational Vehicles/Sports Utility Vehicles) although there is nothing above ground level to suggest the large-scale site that exists beneath the earth’s surface.
The Command Complex
The Command Complex has two levels with approximately 2,500 sq ft of floor space, not including the stairwells and vestibule, a large enough space for three bedrooms with in-suite bathrooms and an adjoining emergency exit. A separate staircase has also been built into the design to the lower level which contains a large contemporary kitchen, living room and utility plus storage space.
On the remaining level of the Command Complex there are two further blast doors leading into the former silo access tunnel, a 40-foot by 10-foot passageway with two more blast door locks leading onto level 2, the Main Silo Complex consists of 14 individual levels.
Main Silo Complex (14 levels)
During the Cold War this space housed the gigantic Atlas F ICBM Rocket. It now makes way for 14 levels of living space, entertainment sections and storage space.
The silo itself runs 200ft directly into the earth with a 50-foot diameter allowing for up to fourteen floor levels of varying height in the complex. More than enough room for a hydroponic garden, machine shop, armory, entertainment area, gymnasium and weight room, cinema, swimming pool, additional accommodation space, and vast amounts of secure, private and hermetically sealed areas any other purposes.
Level 1 – ‘The Penthouse’
Formerly known as the ‘penthouse’ when used by the military with two enormous blast proof launch doors in the ceiling of this level, each weighing over 100 tons, providing an airtight super hardened seal from the outside world, opened by hydraulic lifters. Level 1 consists of a loading bay with a 20ft ceiling height, hangar deck, air bio filter system, intake fans, plant and machinery rooms, large water storage tanks, fuel stores and general space for a workshop. A cargo lift is located on this level and provides access to all lower levels within the main silo. The lift is of the standard that you would expect in a luxurious hotel.
Additionally leading from level 1 to level 2 is a loading portal enabling materials to be passed directly through the level.
Level 2
This level houses a loading bay, mineral spring water storage, clean water storage, fuel storage, two generator sets with silenced exhaust systems, chlorination system for potable water, ultraviolet filter banks, general water filters, machinery rooms, pumps, Lithium-6 and Distillation system, and other heating machinery. There is a complete firewall system that ensures safe exit during the possibility of a fire leading directly out through the command complex.
Levels 3, 4, 5
Open Usage
Level 6
General Storage
Level 7
Heavy Storage – This deck layout is fabricated from heavy duty re-enforced floor sections, suitable for 15kn loads/1.5 tons per square meter. This area also has a ceiling height of 12-15ft enabling large heavy goods, etc. to be safely and securely stored.
Level 8
Cold Stores. On this floor are two large cold store fridges.
Level 9
A purpose built, high quality personal 15-seat cinema with the latest surround sound systems and latest and most up to date audio visual projection systems, with individual drink tables next to each luxurious handcrafted leather recliner.
Furthermore there is a large twelve-seat presentation and board room with the most up to date audio visual presentation systems.
Level 10 – Operational Room
This level contains the Control/RADAR/Communications/Surveillance systems for the facility.
Level 11 – Gym & Training Room
This is a multi-purpose space with a comprehensive arrangement of fitness and workout machines, sun beds, televisions, the latest music systems, and massage beds.
Level 12 – Accommodation Level
The Presidential Suite, with 3 bedrooms and an open lounge/kitchen space with suites to the bedrooms, dining room, and study complete this level.
Level 13 – Swimming Pool
The pool complex consists of a 10-15ft deep pool and 50 ft wide area with a raised area that includes a diving board, Jacuzzi, Sauna, and Drench Shower. This raised area hangs 5ft above the water line. The plant room is located on the main deck away from the swimming area, with toilets and changing rooms set to one side of this floor.
Level 14 – Micro-Nuclear Reactor Level
In 2009, Toshiba developed a new class of micro-size Nuclear Reactors that were designed to power individual apartment buildings or city blocks. It was thought that the reactor, which is only 20-feet by 6-feet, would change everything for small remote communities, small businesses, or even a group of neighbors who were fed up with the power companies and wanted more control over their energy needs.
The facility’s lowest level contains four of these micro-reactors. The 200-kilowatt Toshiba designed reactors are engineered to be fail-safe, totally automatic, and will not overheat. Unlike traditional nuclear reactors the micro-reactor uses no control rods to initiate the reaction. The revolutionary technology uses reservoirs of liquid lithium-6, an isotope that is effective at absorbing neutrons. The Lithium-6 reservoirs are connected to a vertical tube that fits into the reactor core. The whole process is self sustaining and can last for up to 40-years, producing electricity for only 5 cents per kilowatt hour, about half the cost of grid energy.

http://www.atlasmissilesilo.com/images/web_atlas_silo1.jpg

I'm planning to let the group stay here just long enough to get lazy and then I'm gonna drop a few Zeds in on them. I think mobile campaigns are more fun than having a Safe Haven, but we'll see.

Sweet setup however it would take years to actually put that together since the silo itself would just be a deep hole thats you have to build all those floors on. If i were going to do it (which I'd debate was even possible) I would organize the space a bit differently.

From the bottom up I would go:
14 Empty- but for a 15'x15' central room that has one single sealed and concealed hatch entrance to the center of the nuke floor. Stocked with co2 scrubbers O2 bottles and food and water
13 Micro nuke reactors- 20 drainage grates each 24" square around the outside of the floor. In case the pool ever ruptures the water would go through to the bottom level leaving an unflooded reactor room. Pumps on the reactor floor would then expell the water to the surface, and act as sump pumps kicking in if the foundation ever started to leak.
12 Pool - 10 feet deep across the whole width of the floor with 10 feet from waterline to celing. This is where the elevator stops and one must swim across the pool to gain access to the nuke chamber.
11 Theater
10 Gym Put hot tub/ sauna and shower here. Cold from the next level above will keep this level very chilly but hey thats good for a gym.
9 Cold stores - extra access from a 2nd small elevator off the kitchen
8 Accomodations
7 General storage - extra access from a 2nd small elevator off the kitchen
6 Heavy storage
5 & 4 Open use
3 What you had in level 2 except I would use an ozone rather than chlorination system.
2 What you had in the penthouse
Penthouse Farm - Used entirely for hydroponic farming. Split into 2 floors with metal grates as the flooring. Crack open the blast doors a couple inches and place a bunch of PVC pipes running vertically with a couple of right angles at the top to make a hook. Run the fiber optic cables from dozens of these through the pipes (hook's opening is pointing down so the elements stay out) and down into the penthouse. Augment with electric lights and some giant oscilating fans (plants grow week when they don't get blown around by wind) and grow food year round. I'd also probably build a geodesic dome, with a clear roof, around the normal entrace building and have a meditation area/flower garden. Plus it would sort of work like an extra defense agains zombies/intruders as they would have to enter this area before they could even get to the entrance to the underground facitlity. Also all air going into the accomodation level is pumped to and from this hydroponic penthouse level. Its the freshest air in the complex as it has some limited direct access to the outside via the pvc pipes and all of the plants will scrub out the CO2 in the air comming up from the accomodation and produce loads of O2.

With hunting for meat (assuming there is any game left) or rasing your own goats/pigs/chickens/rabbits indoors, I'd say that this setup could easily support a fairly large number of people.

[G]

My players have joined a survivor camp on Beaver Island in the Lake Michigan. However, they use a couple boats and a newly acquired helicopter to make trips to shore for supplies. So the adventures are mobile while the campaign is stationary. It’s been fun and interesting.

They are smart.

I would want a houseboat even better would be as large a boat as I can get..I don't think we need an aircraft carrier or a several thousand person tourboat but they work too, some small motorboats (small enough that you don't need the motor should you run out of fuel), a sailboat would be good too. Same plan, living on an island. With an ultralight copter or plane, snowmobile & dirtbike to get from the boat around land...these all run on little fuel and travel much faster than zombies.

I understand the people who like as big a humvee as they can get...especially thinking that there are so many dead that the remaining resources will last a long long time...but I'd rather conserve.

[Beatmeclever]

Here is the description of the "World's End" Facility:

Spoiler:

My group had been mobile up until very recently. They started out in Denver, then when one of the players suggested that they try to find better surroundings, they ended up traveling from Denver to San Diego, then to Seattle, Chicago, Miami, and New Orleans.

To start the game, each player created a character based on themselves; however, over the course of the group's travels as characters died, new characters joined. The group is currently a University Professor (the only original character in the group), a Scrounger who joined in San Diego, a Soldier (Air Force Pararescue Jumper) who joined in Seattle, a Hound Master that joined in Chicago, and a Medical Doctor who joined in New Orleans. The group has returned to the Denver area when they learned of an abandoned Atlas F missile complex that was being renovated prior to the wave. Just last night the group finally finished clearing the complex of Zeds.

Here is the description of the "World's End" Facility:
This facility was originally designed as an ICBM (Intercontinental Ballistic Missile) launch facility buried two hundred feet into the Colorado (USA) countryside. Built to withstand a direct nuclear attack, the “World’s End” facility has remained unused and in mothballs until now.
With an innovative approach, this once unusable space can become an appealing and attractive fortification, allowing for safety, security, research, and storage of art treasures.
As can be imagined, gaining entrance into the facility is practically impossible with walls of heavily re-enforced concrete and steel up to fifteen feet thick, blast doors up to six feet thick, and up to 150 tons in weight buried up to 200ft deep underground into the surrounding countryside.
General Layout
It is positioned on a site some 20 acres in size of which 5 acres is surrounded with a concertina and barbed wire topped chain link security fence with substantial gates as the first noticeable point of security.
The site is nestled in a secluded and elevated position with mainly prairie grass and outcrops of small dense pine trees and scrub marking the entrance to the facility. Extensive planting has been done immediately surrounding the site to further disguise the entrance to the entry portal.
The entry portal is a small hanger deck and parking space for Helicopters and RV’s/SUV’s (Recreational Vehicles/Sports Utility Vehicles) although there is nothing above ground level to suggest the large-scale site that exists beneath the earth’s surface.
The Command Complex
The Command Complex has two levels with approximately 2,500 sq ft of floor space, not including the stairwells and vestibule, a large enough space for three bedrooms with in-suite bathrooms and an adjoining emergency exit. A separate staircase has also been built into the design to the lower level which contains a large contemporary kitchen, living room and utility plus storage space.
On the remaining level of the Command Complex there are two further blast doors leading into the former silo access tunnel, a 40-foot by 10-foot passageway with two more blast door locks leading onto level 2, the Main Silo Complex consists of 14 individual levels.
Main Silo Complex (14 levels)
During the Cold War this space housed the gigantic Atlas F ICBM Rocket. It now makes way for 14 levels of living space, entertainment sections and storage space.
The silo itself runs 200ft directly into the earth with a 50-foot diameter allowing for up to fourteen floor levels of varying height in the complex. More than enough room for a hydroponic garden, machine shop, armory, entertainment area, gymnasium and weight room, cinema, swimming pool, additional accommodation space, and vast amounts of secure, private and hermetically sealed areas any other purposes.
Level 1 – ‘The Penthouse’
Formerly known as the ‘penthouse’ when used by the military with two enormous blast proof launch doors in the ceiling of this level, each weighing over 100 tons, providing an airtight super hardened seal from the outside world, opened by hydraulic lifters. Level 1 consists of a loading bay with a 20ft ceiling height, hangar deck, air bio filter system, intake fans, plant and machinery rooms, large water storage tanks, fuel stores and general space for a workshop. A cargo lift is located on this level and provides access to all lower levels within the main silo. The lift is of the standard that you would expect in a luxurious hotel.
Additionally leading from level 1 to level 2 is a loading portal enabling materials to be passed directly through the level.
Level 2
This level houses a loading bay, mineral spring water storage, clean water storage, fuel storage, two generator sets with silenced exhaust systems, chlorination system for potable water, ultraviolet filter banks, general water filters, machinery rooms, pumps, Lithium-6 and Distillation system, and other heating machinery. There is a complete firewall system that ensures safe exit during the possibility of a fire leading directly out through the command complex.
Levels 3, 4, 5
Open Usage
Level 6
General Storage
Level 7
Heavy Storage – This deck layout is fabricated from heavy duty re-enforced floor sections, suitable for 15kn loads/1.5 tons per square meter. This area also has a ceiling height of 12-15ft enabling large heavy goods, etc. to be safely and securely stored.
Level 8
Cold Stores. On this floor are two large cold store fridges.
Level 9
A purpose built, high quality personal 15-seat cinema with the latest surround sound systems and latest and most up to date audio visual projection systems, with individual drink tables next to each luxurious handcrafted leather recliner.
Furthermore there is a large twelve-seat presentation and board room with the most up to date audio visual presentation systems.
Level 10 – Operational Room
This level contains the Control/RADAR/Communications/Surveillance systems for the facility.
Level 11 – Gym & Training Room
This is a multi-purpose space with a comprehensive arrangement of fitness and workout machines, sun beds, televisions, the latest music systems, and massage beds.
Level 12 – Accommodation Level
The Presidential Suite, with 3 bedrooms and an open lounge/kitchen space with suites to the bedrooms, dining room, and study complete this level.
Level 13 – Swimming Pool
The pool complex consists of a 10-15ft deep pool and 50 ft wide area with a raised area that includes a diving board, Jacuzzi, Sauna, and Drench Shower. This raised area hangs 5ft above the water line. The plant room is located on the main deck away from the swimming area, with toilets and changing rooms set to one side of this floor.
Level 14 – Micro-Nuclear Reactor Level
In 2009, Toshiba developed a new class of micro-size Nuclear Reactors that were designed to power individual apartment buildings or city blocks. It was thought that the reactor, which is only 20-feet by 6-feet, would change everything for small remote communities, small businesses, or even a group of neighbors who were fed up with the power companies and wanted more control over their energy needs.
The facility’s lowest level contains four of these micro-reactors. The 200-kilowatt Toshiba designed reactors are engineered to be fail-safe, totally automatic, and will not overheat. Unlike traditional nuclear reactors the micro-reactor uses no control rods to initiate the reaction. The revolutionary technology uses reservoirs of liquid lithium-6, an isotope that is effective at absorbing neutrons. The Lithium-6 reservoirs are connected to a vertical tube that fits into the reactor core. The whole process is self sustaining and can last for up to 40-years, producing electricity for only 5 cents per kilowatt hour, about half the cost of grid energy.

http://www.atlasmissilesilo.com/images/web_atlas_silo1.jpg

I'm planning to let the group stay here just long enough to get lazy and then I'm gonna drop a few Zeds in on them. I think mobile campaigns are more fun than having a Safe Haven, but we'll see.

Sweet setup however it would take years to actually put that together since the silo itself would just be a deep hole thats you have to build all those floors on. If i were going to do it (which I'd debate was even possible) I would organize the space a bit differently.

From the bottom up I would go:
14 Empty- but for a 15'x15' central room that has one single sealed and concealed hatch entrance to the center of the nuke floor. Stocked with co2 scrubbers O2 bottles and food and water
13 Micro nuke reactors- 20 drainage grates each 24" square around the outside of the floor. In case the pool ever ruptures the water would go through to the bottom level leaving an unflooded reactor room. Pumps on the reactor floor would then expell the water to the surface, and act as sump pumps kicking in if the foundation ever started to leak.
12 Pool - 10 feet deep across the whole width of the floor with 10 feet from waterline to celing. This is where the elevator stops and one must swim across the pool to gain access to the nuke chamber.
11 Theater
10 Gym Put hot tub/ sauna and shower here. Cold from the next level above will keep this level very chilly but hey thats good for a gym.
9 Cold stores - extra access from a 2nd small elevator off the kitchen
8 Accomodations
7 General storage - extra access from a 2nd small elevator off the kitchen
6 Heavy storage
5 & 4 Open use
3 What you had in level 2 except I would use an ozone rather than chlorination system.
2 What you had in the penthouse
Penthouse Farm - Used entirely for hydroponic farming. Split into 2 floors with metal grates as the flooring. Crack open the blast doors a couple inches and place a bunch of PVC pipes running vertically with a couple of right angles at the top to make a hook. Run the fiber optic cables from dozens of these through the pipes (hook's opening is pointing down so the elements stay out) and down into the penthouse. Augment with electric lights and some giant oscilating fans (plants grow week when they don't get blown around by wind) and grow food year round. I'd also probably build a geodesic dome, with a clear roof, around the normal entrace building and have a meditation area/flower garden. Plus it would sort of work like an extra defense agains zombies/intruders as they would have to enter this area before they could even get to the entrance to the underground facitlity. Also all air going into the accomodation level is pumped to and from this hydroponic penthouse level. Its the freshest air in the complex as it has some limited direct access to the outside via the pvc pipes and all of the plants will scrub out the CO2 in the air comming up from the accomodation and produce loads of O2.

With hunting for meat (assuming there is any game left) or rasing your own goats/pigs/chickens/rabbits indoors, I'd say that this setup could easily support a fairly large number of people.

Actually, I got most of the information about the "World's End" from a website that was selling old missile silos. The things in several of those were amalgamated into the facility I described. Another thing is that I did say that the silo had been being refurbished before the wave. Although I do like several of your modifications and I will even think about suggesting the switch of levels 1 and 2. Thanks.

[Thinyser]

Actually, I got most of the information about the "World's End" from a website that was selling old missile silos. The things in several of those were amalgamated into the facility I described. Another thing is that I did say that the silo had been being refurbished before the wave. Although I do like several of your modifications and I will even think about suggesting the switch of levels 1 and 2. Thanks.

No problem.

[azazel1024]

Just a thought after driving through Cumberland MD and being out in West Virginia on a little R&R over the weekend, but if you could get a large enough group together, mountain towns/cities would be the ideal place to raid and try to clean out.

Some can be quite big, I think Cumberland has a population around 30,000...so it couldn't be undertaken by a small group. However, if you had a powerful enough group, or if you were commited to a long campaign of raiding and picking off zombies you probably could take on a smaller town of a few thousand. Most towns that size are likely to have most of what you'd want or need and they might even have much lower zombie populations if a lot of people fled in the wave of the plague. A small city like Cumberland if a large enough group could purge it is going to have at least light industry and probably a bit of heavy industry that you might be able to start up or retool given some expertise in your group.

This of course is likely not for a group of 3 or 4 PCs, but you are rolling with several dozen, let alone a couple of hundred survivors it might be workable with a good leader, proper supplies and a good game plan to do it.

The perk is those mountain towns/cities are not all that easily accessible to the rest of the world other then through highways and a few back roads. They'd be pretty easy to control the access points to screen any wandering zombies or raiders if you had a medium/large size survivor group (I don't see a zombie 'wandering' up a 25+ degree mountain slope). Also most have enough land around them that could be farmed that you could support a population of at least several hundred on it.
-Matt

[Thinyser]

Just a thought after driving through Cumberland MD and being out in West Virginia on a little R&R over the weekend, but if you could get a large enough group together, mountain towns/cities would be the ideal place to raid and try to clean out.

Some can be quite big, I think Cumberland has a population around 30,000...so it couldn't be undertaken by a small group. However, if you had a powerful enough group, or if you were commited to a long campaign of raiding and picking off zombies you probably could take on a smaller town of a few thousand. Most towns that size are likely to have most of what you'd want or need and they might even have much lower zombie populations if a lot of people fled in the wave of the plague. A small city like Cumberland if a large enough group could purge it is going to have at least light industry and probably a bit of heavy industry that you might be able to start up or retool given some expertise in your group.

This of course is likely not for a group of 3 or 4 PCs, but you are rolling with several dozen, let alone a couple of hundred survivors it might be workable with a good leader, proper supplies and a good game plan to do it.

The perk is those mountain towns/cities are not all that easily accessible to the rest of the world other then through highways and a few back roads. They'd be pretty easy to control the access points to screen any wandering zombies or raiders if you had a medium/large size survivor group (I don't see a zombie 'wandering' up a 25+ degree mountain slope). Also most have enough land around them that could be farmed that you could support a population of at least several hundred on it.
-Matt

I remember reading somewhere that if a average suburban neighborhood turned its yards into gardens/crop fields and their garages to chicken/rabbit coups & pig/sheep pens, while every cornor lot had a couple of cows they would be able to grow enough food for 1 or maybe 2 people per lot if they had a good trade system worked up.

Nobody has to walk far to get produce or meat or dairy and they can trade one for the other so they can have varity also.

[azazel1024]

Chickens, pigs, cows etc would increase the amount of land you'd need to support yourself as the amount of feed required for those animals calorically exceeds the amount you get from them by a lot. I don't know the numbers for poultry, but for pigs/cows you tend to put in somewhere around 6x as many calories as you get out. IE to raise a cow to slaughter age you might be required to feed it somewhere in the range of 6 million calories of various grains, feed, grass and hay while you might only get say 1 million calories out 'normally' edible food out of one (I am ignoring things like organs, marrow, etc).

This is one of the global warming/land use issues in the developed country is we eat tons of meat, which creates a huge drain because it requires a heck of a lot of feed and by consequence CO2, fuel use, fertilizer, pesticides, etc to produce meat.

At any rate, of your land use was limited you'd be better of producing high energy crops such as beans, peas, potatoes, corn, wheat, rice, etc. A 1 acre plot of land is sufficient, if well tended and deverse to provide most of the vegetable and fruit requirements as well as a lot of the grain requirements for a family of 4 for an entire year depending on the climate (assuming temperate with good quality soil). Of course that would assume you are consuming meat (fish, chicken, beef, etc) as part of your calorie intake as well as getting some of your grains from elsewhere. If you want to produce every single calorie you intake from farming fruits, nuts, vegetables and grains with no meat/dairy then you'd looking at something more like 3/4-1 acre per person.

In a situation such as a mountain town it doesn't take to much land to provide for the survivors or a raiding party that takes it over. If there are say 500 people you'd likely need something like 200-300 acres of farmable land plus maybe the same for grazing land for cows/goats to provide a meat supplment in the diet.
-Matt

[azazel1024]

Natural gas is going to be a problem though, unless you find a lot of propane tanks. With power off to most everything the pump stations for natural gas would be off, so you can't just tap in to a homes gas line and siphon gas from it.

Hellium is going to be almost impossible to find in the quantities needed to keep a zeplin going. Both hellium and hydrogen will leak through even solid materials, so some amount of gas has to be made up periodically. Hydrogen might work as you can always hydrolize water to get hydrogen to fill the zeplin. Solar panels aren't light, so you're not going to be able to mount very many of them. You are going to need a lot of power to move it through any kind of wind.

Comparison, the Graf Zeppelin.
776ft long, 100ft in diameter, 3.7 million cubic feet of lift gas, 1 million cubic feet of blaugas (similar to propane, the graf zeppelin was effectively powered by natural gas, or a sort), 5 550hp V-12 engines, 36 crew, 20 passengers, cruise time 100hrs, cruise speed 72mph.

So, at least for something the size of the graf zeppelin (which was pretty damned big) you'd need around 5,000kg of hydrogen for its lift bag, around a million cubic feed of propane (which is around 50,000kg of propane or about 5,000 barbaque sized propane tanks worth) to carry around 60 people and a few thousand pounds of cargo.

Of course, you could down size it, goodyear blimp stats
192ft long, 50ft wide, 202 thousand cubic feet of gas, max speed 50mph, cruise 30mph, max gross weight 12.4k lbs, total of 6 people, (2) 210hp gasoline aviation engines

That doesn't have much room for people or cargo (let alone live aboard!) though switching to hydrogen and making sure the structure could support the weight you could increase max gross weight to nearly 40k lbs (hydrogen has nearly 4 times the lift ability of helium) expanding the gondola a fair bit for more room and cargo capacity.

Even in the goodyear blimp situation if you used propane for a fuel, figuring a power rating of 150hp to sustain a 30mph cruise, those V12 engines on the Graf needed to develop 450hp each for 72mph cruise giving a range of 7200 miles total. Or about 139cu-ft of propane per mile at 2,250hp output. That gets you 16hp-ft^3/min in fuel consumption. Figure a bit more modern engine and maybe 25hp-ft^3/min for propane powered engines on your good year blimp, so 6ft^3 a min in fuel conmption at 30mph.

A single 20lb propane cylinder is going to power your good year blimp at cruise for around 20-30 minutes (about 15 miles per propane cylinder).

150hp worth of solar power would require 559 205w solar panels. This would weigh 23,000lbs (not including wiring, power controllers, etc) and covers 9006ft^2 of the blimps surface area. The blimp has just over 10,000ft^2 of surface area on the top half of the blimp, the problem is it wouldn't allow all of the solar panels to point toward the sun. At best you might be able to get 40-50hp of solar power from the blimps surface and would require hundreds of solar panels.

This does not mean this is a terrible idea or unworkable, but you are probably going to need a combination of diesel, solar and natural gas/propane. A little solar power to run the electrical power on the blimp and for times when you want to anchor it (a dozen solar panels and a few automotive batteries would cover this). Diesel and propane to power the engines to make it flexible on fuel source. A turbo diesel tends around .33 BSFC or around .33lbs of fuel per hour consumed for every HP of output, or 49.5lbs an hour (7 gallons an hour, or 4.2mpg) at 150hp for a turbo diesel.

In otherwords, you'd burn through diesel close to as fast as propane, though its likely easier to find say a couple of hundred gallons of diesel from a gas stations then several dozen propane canisters.

This is a long winded way of saying, the blimp/zeppelin sounds like a great idea, but make it dual fuel and only use solar for powering the electrical systems. Also the smaller the better within reason (big enough to fit maybe a dozen people with spartan living arrangements as well as several thousand pounds of fuel and cargo).
-Matt

[azazel1024]

Wind turbines would only work when anchored. Otherwise they are just going to add extra air resistance that the engines have to work hard through. You'd be better off running larger alternators on the zeppelin engines if you need more power.

You could have a collapsable/foldable wind turbine for when the zeppelin is anchored though. Wind sails could work, but frankly the huge surface area of the zeppelin will work as one. The downside is you can only move with the wind or possibly at a 90 degree angle to it (and then only with sails). The blimp surface area is going to be way to big to be able to head in to the wind even just a tiny bit or at less then a 90 degree angle to the wind, it just can't support a realistic enough sail area to have an airfoil effect to sail in to the wind at all.

Of course that also brings up the down side to an air ship, traveling in to any kind of wind uses a lot of power. Heck with a top speed of 50mph from the goodyear blimp and using 420hp total (compared to probably around 100-150hp cruising) the goodyear blimp with a 40mph headwind would only travel about 10mph and at speeds greater then 50mph it can't travel in to the wind at all.

Of course winds of more then 10-20mph aren't terribly common, but places like the midwest you do frequently see constant wind speeds in that range, so cruising in to the wind would use all 30mph worth of fuel consumption, but you'd probably only average 15-20mph. Of course with a tail wind you could either use very little fuel or go a lot faster for the same amount of cruise fuel. Or shot the engines off entirely and just float with the wind for awhile.

This brings up something interesting, I kind of hope PB brings back blimps and zeppelins from After the Bomb for DR. They would work great, with a few limitations. Heck if not I might just write something up about constructing/using zeppelins/blimps. I also hope they take on sailing and boats in one of the next books as those would probably be one of the biggest commodities considering the roving plague of the undead across land.
-Matt

[Gamer]

To me the boats and barges idea is the way to go in DR considering the zombies ability to see your PPE from a good distance.
The safest stationary place I can think of is an oil platform, it doesn't have to be offshore it can be at a dry dock getting refurbished/repaired (preferred IMHO).

Most platforms anymore have their own desalinisation systems (more cost effective) with a considerable amount of potable water, can also hold a large amount of fuel, generators, backup generators, spare parts and the ones at dry dock will have loads of tools and hardware for use and will already be in an area good for supply sorties, especially those with car ferry terminals nearby.
If your group is lucky enough to include a helicopter pilot even a piston rated one you could have a nice little haven.

[Gamer]

The boats and barges idea sounds like a easier and safer way to go in DR.
The safest stationary place I can think of is an oil platform, it doesn't have to be way offshore it can be at a drydock getting refurbished/repaired.

Most have their own desalinisation systems (more cost effective), can store quite a bit of potable water and fuel, have power generators and their backups.
The docked ones would have access to the docks tools, hardware and materials and would already be in an area ripe for supply sorties and would make a nice haven especially if you have a car ferry terminal nearby and/or are lucky enough to have a helicopter pilot in the group and the platform has a helipad.

[azazel1024]

You could make (if you had the skills and some access to parts) an old steamer or convert a more modern ship to run on wood burning boilers or dual fuel (oil, gas, etc and wood). This would then be a sea worthy boat, a better option then a river boat purely.

I'd want one that could manage that. Then just stop whenever you are starting to get low on fuel, cut down some trees and keep going. You can go as primative as just collecting fallen limbs and branches and using a hand axe, or if you can get a couple chain saws. You can cut down and chop up a lot of wood with a gallon or two of gas to power a couple of chain saws.
-Matt

[Gamer]

Converting a ship from petroleum to wood-steam is just too much work for a small group to accomplish in the DR setting in my opinion.
You need to take the ship out of water (drydocked), cut good sized section off of the ship just to get the old petroleum engine out and the new furnace, boiler, piping, and steam turbine in and hope you have room for all the wood you will need to feed the furnace to get anywhere, so now room that could have been used for supplies is now going for wood-fuel.
To me converting a ship's diesel engine to run on Methanol and distilling the wood is something that would be easier to achieve, an ongoing, time consuming process to be sure but still easier to achieve in the end.

[azazel1024]

A wood gasification conversion would probably be the easiest to accomplish for converting a diesel engine to a wood fuel source.

I was thinking more along the lines of external combustion engine conversion, such as ships that run on heavy oil, not a diesel conversion to run on wood. External combustion modification to run on wood would be easier. By no means easy, but easier.

Alternately something 'small' like a 40-100ft motor yacht would be relatively easy to convert to run on wood. You'd need someone with welding skills and some materials, but frankly you could convert a hot water heater with a bit of time and welding in to a boiler or for that matter plenty of older buildings have actual steam boilers you could bogart (I don't mean a modern oil heating system which generally doesn't heat things enough for steam, one of the old buildings that used steam heat).

With some resources (sheet steel, welding supplies, etc) I could probably convert a 4 stroke piston engine in to a single expansion steam engine in a couple of days. Not easy for a survivor group, but any large marina with a repair shop is likely to have most of the tools and materials you'd need to do the job. Heck you could gang a couple of piston engines together to make a crude double expansion steam engine with some work.

Easiest would be to source a turbine engine from a helicopter and you could convert that in to a steam turbine engine with very little work.
-Matt

PS Wood gasification would probably be the easiest and fastest though.

[Gamer]

I would never trust anyone's mickey mouse creations such as hot water heaters to boilers, steam turbines from a scavenged RR CJ20 turbine from a Bell 206 to be "seaworthy".
As is said in the dry dock about seaworthiness, you do it right or don't do it at all.
I would never even trust my own abilities and I wouldn't expect anyone to trust my abilities to mickey mouse something like that and expect it to be "seaworthy".
They "might" be considered as temporary means for Bay area or Mississippi river use but would never consider it for going across the great lakes much less out to sea.

If I'm in a large marina I will have a lot of more viable options then trying something like that sorry, no insult about your abilites is intended.
I will not take chaces with such things out on the ocean even 10 klicks out.

[azazel1024]

Dude I wouldn't trust my welding and shop skills to create something that would last 5 minutes let alone take it out to sea in. There are people who do have some awesome skills that could jury rig something. Also emphasis on jury rig. Personally if I did anything it would be some form of wood gasification to run an outboard engine for a sail boat. Use sailing as the primary means of propulsion, wood gasification to primarily power the outboard engine when the wind is light or I needed to be able to get underway quickly (and possibly straight in to the wind without tacking or gibing). I set it up for a dual fuel setup so that I could switch between wood gasification and gasoline/diesel operation or have two outboard motors one which could run on either.

So if I was dropping anchor or pulling up to a dock/marina I could stoke up the wood gasification to have it ready in case I needed to make a quick exit without having to haul up the sails, manuever through the marina, etc. A more reliable fuel source then gasoline or diesel even if the gasification system wasn't as reliable as a gasoline or diesel powered engine is, with a 2nd one if you had to in an emergency you could drop the prop of that one in, fire it up and go.
-Matt

[asajosh]

Has anyone thought of confiscating an air ship?
IRL, there are several companies that are revamping the old airship designs as well as implimenting new ones (including prototype "floating hotels"). I've been thinking how cool would it be to live and raid from one of these baddies!!

[Gamer]

It wouldn't be worth the effort.
Too much dependence on helium, needs trained ground crew to safely land, cargo capacity is seriously limited in anything that is currently in the U.S.

I'd take any taildragger or a piston helicopter first.

[asajosh]

It wouldn't be worth the effort.
Too much dependence on helium, needs trained ground crew to safely land, cargo capacity is seriously limited in anything that is currently in the U.S.

I'd take any taildragger or a piston helicopter first.

I've been trying to find for days now the gas "leakage" of modern air ships. Like how much gas seeps thru the container holding it. Potentially, helium or hydrogen floated ships may stay aloft for weeks or months (air temperature is factor) without needing to be topped off. And if you use hydrogen gas, you can refill from any water source (electrolysis (sp) can easily seperate hydrogen gas from water). Just lose some altitude over an ocean or lake, drop the hose and pump. Solar panels on the gas envalope body, electrical motors spinning ducted props, and some sturdy ropes for landing and your good to go!

And just so we stay clear, I'm talking IN GAME here

[azazel1024]

I already pointed out that solar power won't work for propulsion, the weight and coverage area is sufficient to propel a full sized air ship in anything but dead calm conditions, which rarely happens up a few thousand feet. At best with a couple of hundred solar panels on something the size of the goodyear blimp (which could hold a handful of people and some limited supples, say about the cargo/passenger capacity of a full conversion van or maybe a short bus) might be able to propel it at a slow jogging speed in calm weather, perhaps 3-5mph. That means unless your going to travel with the wind you will make no headway in conditions with more then 3-5mph headwinds.

Pretty worthless. Solar power is at best used to operate the electrical equipment, keep the electrical system's batteries charged up and for electrolysis of water to replenish lost hydrogen.

You can convert helium to hydrogen with some work, but keep in mind that helium systems aren't designed to be antistatic nor to the volumes that hydrogen needs (which are much less then helium). This means overloaded ballast systems or partially filled gas bags, etc. There pretty much aren't any air ships made that use hydrogen.
-Matt

[asajosh]

I already pointed out that solar power won't work for propulsion, the weight and coverage area is sufficient to propel a full sized air ship in anything but dead calm conditions, which rarely happens up a few thousand feet. At best with a couple of hundred solar panels on something the size of the goodyear blimp (which could hold a handful of people and some limited supples, say about the cargo/passenger capacity of a full conversion van or maybe a short bus) might be able to propel it at a slow jogging speed in calm weather, perhaps 3-5mph. That means unless your going to travel with the wind you will make no headway in conditions with more then 3-5mph headwinds.

Pretty worthless. Solar power is at best used to operate the electrical equipment, keep the electrical system's batteries charged up and for electrolysis of water to replenish lost hydrogen.

You can convert helium to hydrogen with some work, but keep in mind that helium systems aren't designed to be antistatic nor to the volumes that hydrogen needs (which are much less then helium). This means overloaded ballast systems or partially filled gas bags, etc. There pretty much aren't any air ships made that use hydrogen.
-Matt

Well airships never were designed for speed, they were deisgned for luxury and safety over long voyages.
And I was envisioning the enire dorsal area of the balloon covered in a series of photo cells all collecting hundreds (if not thousands) of watt hours. A simple step up transformer will make your electric props spin faster using the same amount of power. In any case, in GAME TERMS (wink wink, nudge nudge), it might just be doable

[azazel1024]

It wouldn't be worth the effort.
Too much dependence on helium, needs trained ground crew to safely land, cargo capacity is seriously limited in anything that is currently in the U.S.

I'd take any taildragger or a piston helicopter first.

I've been trying to find for days now the gas "leakage" of modern air ships. Like how much gas seeps thru the container holding it. Potentially, helium or hydrogen floated ships may stay aloft for weeks or months (air temperature is factor) without needing to be topped off. And if you use hydrogen gas, you can refill from any water source (electrolysis (sp) can easily seperate hydrogen gas from water). Just lose some altitude over an ocean or lake, drop the hose and pump. Solar panels on the gas envalope body, electrical motors spinning ducted props, and some sturdy ropes for landing and your good to go!

And just so we stay clear, I'm talking IN GAME here

Not sure on Hydrogen, but for helium it is in the range of 1-2 grams per meter square of surface area per day for mylar (the number I came up with was 1.2g, but that was a bit of a guesstimate, more estimate then guess though).

So if you had a blimp with 1,500m^2 of surface area it would lose around 1.5-3kg a day of helium. Helium weighs 4 grams per 22.4 liters (44.6g/m^3).

Helium also has a lifting power of 278g per m^3 of helium lift gas.

For hydrogen, not sure of its diffusion rate, but if it is based on elemental size then it would be twice as high (H2 has an atomic weight of 2). Hydrogen is also of course flamable, but has a higher lifting power, double that of helium (helium has an atomic weight of 4, hyrdogen is found diamtomically as H2 with a total weight atomic weight of 2 and air averages to about 29 since it is composed primarly of diatomic nitrogen (28) and diatomic oxygen (32)).

Its going to take about 30kw/hr to electrolize a liter of water (the process is not 100% efficient). That liter of water is going to produce 111g of hyrdogen or 1.25m^3 of hyrdogen gas.

Electrolysis works, but it is pretty energy intensive.

Example blimp is 50m long and 15 in diameter. Total surface area, about 200m^2 (a little less then a cylinder of the same size). So for hydrogen, if assuming double the rate of gas loss as helium you'd lose around 500g/day of hydrogen or 22.4m^3 of lift gas (about 8,000m^3 total). That is a loss of 12.5kg of lift power per day with a total maximum of 4,448kg of list power from those 8,000m^3.

So a day or two's loss would be negligable, but a few weeks would be noticable most likely. Its also going to take a lot of power to keep up with the loss. 500g/day is going to require 135kw/hr a day of energy. In US climates that varies from 15-33kw of solar panels (4-8 insolation hours per day varying from the US northwest to the US southwest, though being that your in a blimp you could potentially rise above some low clouds increasing power production). 15-33kw varies from 60-130 200w solar panels. That is a hell of a lot of scavaging for solar panels (and that blimp doesn't support that much surface area on top of it).

A 5kw generator could almost keep up, taking 27hrs to produce enough electricity for 24hrs worth of hydrogen loss and burning through about 30 gallons of gasoline in the process. Diesel generators being somewhat more efficient if you could source a 6kw diesel generator you could keep up with the losses and also probably only burn around 25 gallons of diesel a day to keep up.
-Matt

[azazel1024]

I already pointed out that solar power won't work for propulsion, the weight and coverage area is sufficient to propel a full sized air ship in anything but dead calm conditions, which rarely happens up a few thousand feet. At best with a couple of hundred solar panels on something the size of the goodyear blimp (which could hold a handful of people and some limited supples, say about the cargo/passenger capacity of a full conversion van or maybe a short bus) might be able to propel it at a slow jogging speed in calm weather, perhaps 3-5mph. That means unless your going to travel with the wind you will make no headway in conditions with more then 3-5mph headwinds.

Pretty worthless. Solar power is at best used to operate the electrical equipment, keep the electrical system's batteries charged up and for electrolysis of water to replenish lost hydrogen.

You can convert helium to hydrogen with some work, but keep in mind that helium systems aren't designed to be antistatic nor to the volumes that hydrogen needs (which are much less then helium). This means overloaded ballast systems or partially filled gas bags, etc. There pretty much aren't any air ships made that use hydrogen.
-Matt

Well airships never were designed for speed, they were deisgned for luxury and safety over long voyages.
And I was envisioning the enire dorsal area of the balloon covered in a series of photo cells all collecting hundreds (if not thousands) of watt hours. A simple step up transformer will make your electric props spin faster using the same amount of power. In any case, in GAME TERMS (wink wink, nudge nudge), it might just be doable

Well in game terms maybe, but as I mentioned before about the Goodyear blimp, the total surface area might just be enough to keep it at a good running speed if covered with solar panels, since less then half is going to get hit with sunlight at any given time reduce the speed by about 30% so maybe 8-10mph and that still would require a couple of hundred solar panels, which your going to find where? Also no traveling in heavily overcast conditions, at night or in anything other then very calm conditions.

Your welcome to do whatever you want in your games, I'm not trying to cry foul. If you want to hew close to reality it isn't even remotely possible to solar power a blimp unless your talking a small remote controlled sensor platform (and by small I mean something big enough to maybe hoist a wireless video camera, and then also still not usable except in relatively calm conditions). Speaking of, this would be a great idea for survivors. A solar/battery powered remote operated blimb with a video camera. Something maybe only a meter or two long with a turreted video camera, radio transmiter and receiver, some small ducted or rotatable props, a small LiIon battery from a laptop and a small solar cell on top (or do away with the solar cell and do it all battery powered and just recharge the battery after use). You could probably with a powerful enough control unit and transmiter operate it from a couple of miles away. Great way to scope out a potential village or town before rolling in and maybe a way to attarct and lead zombies around.
-Matt

[Gamer]

Well in game terms maybe, but as I mentioned before about the Goodyear blimp, the total surface area might just be enough to keep it at a good running speed if covered with solar panels, since less then half is going to get hit with sunlight at any given time reduce the speed by about 30% so maybe 8-10mph and that still would require a couple of hundred solar panels, which your going to find where? Also no traveling in heavily overcast conditions, at night or in anything other then very calm conditions.

Your welcome to do whatever you want in your games, I'm not trying to cry foul. If you want to hew close to reality it isn't even remotely possible to solar power a blimp unless your talking a small remote controlled sensor platform (and by small I mean something big enough to maybe hoist a wireless video camera, and then also still not usable except in relatively calm conditions). Speaking of, this would be a great idea for survivors. A solar/battery powered remote operated blimb with a video camera. Something maybe only a meter or two long with a turreted video camera, radio transmiter and receiver, some small ducted or rotatable props, a small LiIon battery from a laptop and a small solar cell on top (or do away with the solar cell and do it all battery powered and just recharge the battery after use). You could probably with a powerful enough control unit and transmiter operate it from a couple of miles away. Great way to scope out a potential village or town before rolling in and maybe a way to attarct and lead zombies around.
-Matt

So Mr. "it isn't even remotely possible to solar power a blimp unless your talking a small remote controlled sensor platform"

You mind explaining to the world why we already have solar powered airships in the sky if you say it can't be done.
Here's one made on a limited budget and with help from high school and college students in it's construction.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbs24o ... rgie_sport

Shouldn't tell people on these forums something "isn't remotely possible" if the very thing the person wants already exists.

[azazel1024]

I'll have to take a look at it later is the link is blocked from my work.

Remotely possible in a post apocalptic setting where it is going to hard to scavenge more then a handful of solar panels, need to make any kind of small air ship from scratch (because such a thing doesn't really exist right now), etc.

So year, not remotely possible to make a solar powered air ship that is practical. I just mentioned you could make one in previous posts, but again it can't operate on anything but the calmest days (meaning it is tethered and imobile or basically drifting with the wind probably 50% of the time or better over much of the US) and probably can't life much more then a person or two and a couple of back packs of supplies.

The good year blimp which could carry a useful number of people and supplies would require a good hundred or so solar panels and then would still be limited as I mentioned previously.

I can make a solar powered car, but it isn't practical in a post apocalyptic situation either. Can't operate on cloudy days or at night (because battery storage would be to much of a weight and space penalty), it can't carry really anything (because it has to be very light weight, very aero dynamic and a high surface area) other then its driver, etc.

So can't be done is wrong, can't be practical in a post apocalyptic situation with the generally limited resources you'd have at your fingers. Hell even with some great salvage say from a solar panel factory, solar farm, a couple of houses from a 'tree hugger' neighborhood, etc would still mean you'd need the resources from several other great 'scores' such as a low permieability fabirc to skin the air frame with or to make lift bags, materials for a light weight frame, etc, etc.

Crap even looting the good year blimp and a solar factory would only get you part way there (you'd need powerful electric motors to run the fan blades, inverters to handle such a larger current, etc, etc).

Could you do it in a game context, GMs fiat, but it isn't realistic that a post apocalyptic group trying to survive could come up with the resources to produce a solar powered airship of any PRACTICAL value beyond a remote sensor platform.
-Matt

[azazel1024]

Yeah after viewing the video that is at best the equivelent of an aerial bicycle peddled by a 60 year old asthmatic that can only be used on fair weather days (comperable in terms of speed and payload). So no, I most certainly wouldn't consider that practical. Can it be done, sure, practical not in a blue moon.

But, don't let that stop you from doing it in your game. If you think it is a cool concept then do it. Role playing games aren't exactly great respectors of reality and generally that makes them more fun.
-Matt

[asajosh]

Role playing games aren't exactly great respectors of reality and generally that makes them more fun.
-Matt

If I had more room in my sig, this would be in it.

[azazel1024]

My math was wrong. The rate of hydrogen loss would be much lower then what I calculated. I was using math closer to what latex loses, mylar is at a much slower rate, closer to 20% of what I had stated. So it would be possible to cover a blimp with enough solar panels to electrolyze water to keep up with hydrogen leakage through the skin of the blimp/zeplin.

Of course enough solar to both do that and move the zeplin at more then a literal crawl would be darned unlikely. Enough to handle the electrolysis of water to make up for lost lift gas and supply basic electrical requirements certainly. Heck probably even enough to charge up some batteries for periodic electric only motor drive. I just wouldn't expect more than maybe 20-30 minutes a day of electrical propulsive power at about 3-5 knots while still also taking care of the airships electrical needs (lighting, microwave?, entertainment, instruments, radar, etc) and electrolyzing water. That is with the entire upper surface and a lot of the sides covered with light weight solar panels (have to ditch the normal enclosures as that would weigh so much that the air ship wouldn't be able to fit any cargo whatsoever and would have a tiny gondola barely squeezing yourself in to for a 100m zeplin covered in solar panels). Flexible solar panels or custom thin polymer covers would be the name of the game. Alternately a solar panel skin might work, but very not scavengable.

As for hazards, plenty. However good navigational/weather doppler radar could help with this. It wouldn't give you several days lead time, but with the altitude the zeplin can operate at, and its likely speed you'd have at least a few hours warning of any bad storm. Might mean you'd have to try to run with the storm or try to go around it (or over it if you can lift high enough). Normally airships are battened down in hangers during any bad storm. I'd think/guess/guesstimate/know that anything more than about 30kt winds and you are asking for trouble, any real gale force storm (70kt winds) would tear an airship from the sky.
-Matt

[Epically]

My guys found themselves a secret bunker hidden in a hill. Inside was an apache helicopter, 4 hummers, an armory and working power. They raided near by houses and pimped out the bunker with booze, beds, couches, tv and dvd player, stove and **** lol. Then they discovered that there's a secret underground research facility right below them.