Whats so wrong about humans?

[Rahmota]

I have noticed on here that a lot of people seem to hate being human. That role playing doesnt seem to matter as long as they get a bunch of stat bonuses and neatopowers and have a megadamage body and can throw cars they don't care what the cost or what it means.

I mean this is called Rift EARTH. Humans where here on earth first. Oiginally the game was about the survival of humans and near humans in a world gone mad with magic and creatures and all sorts of unpleasant things. But over the years the monsters are running the show and it seems like humans are beign relgated to a second class minority at best.

I run a human or near human only game with the CSA as the heros. I get the feeling that most of the people on here would rather be trapped in a car on a cross country drive with a dozen 2 year olds than sit at my table. Yet out of my group of 6 players only 1 has any problem playing a human and he will at least play near humans (catboys usually he has a furry fetish)

I mean people have said they are too limiting. How are humans limited? They created 90% of the tech on Rifts Earth, designed it and the technology can do just about anythign that magic or supernatural powers can do just as well if not better. Huans do not ahve any special dietary needs like freash blood or raw meat or nuclear waste. Yeah a human can't just wander around in the arctic naked but thats why we developed technology in the first plae, so we woulnt have to. A smart human would not be wandering around naked in the arctic.

And that is what gets me a lot of people treat adn act like there are no restrictions or costs to playign a non-human. Or if there are they ignore them. The ramifications of playign a cyborg for instance. You have traded natural senses for electronic simulations. You will never smell a rose again, you will never feel the caress of a lover or the warmth of the sand on the beach, you will never see a rainbow in the same way again. EVER! Not without goign back to biological sytems. Sure you are bigger and tougher but great grandma's rocking chair will never hold you again. And dont even think about using the good china until you get used to your augmented strength. Without the subtle connections a living body brings the consideration for your fellow humans disappers. You are a machine you no longer need to worry about these meat puppets so what if they die you'll be fine. And then you have to be put own like the maddog creature you have become. That is the inevitable end result of full conversion if the true roleplayign costs of conversion where considered.

Why all the hatred for humans? Is it just because the creatures and monsters give you more bonuses and stats and powers? Thats no fun. Might as well play on the playstation. Look at the epic stories from history. The travails of beowulf, hercules, odysseus, perseus, and tell me that you have to be somethign other than a human to stand a chance against gods and monsters.

This game used to be more fun when it was about the humans and their unwavering, unyielding fighting desire to live and survive and thive even against the odds and pressures of relentless attacks by creatues and monsters from beyond. Now he monsters and creatures have won.

[Dog_O_War]

A simple question;

What is the incentive to play a human character?

And the follow-up;

Is that any different than picking a race with "neato stat bonuses"?

And finally;

Why does it matter so much to you why others choose the races they choose?


Answering these questions will bring you the answer to yours.

[Gamer]

It's not people hate playing humans.
Some people like the fact you don't have to play as a human, since you live every day of your real life as a human.

The cyborg loose their humanity thing is over rated and over done, one can caress their lover, just not at the same level a person used to but they still can unless they got a system with no feeling ability at all, one can smell a rose and at better ability than any human ever could, one could also see a rainbow, sunset, the moon to a higher level no human ever could without some sort of artifical help so that bit of the arguement is just insane.
Do I care that having sex is gone, no if I'm a full conversion borg the chemically induced urge has been pretty much removed.
Do I care if grandmothers rocking chair could hold me?
Are you kidding me? where would I keep grandmothers rocking chair and WHY would I keep grandmothers rocking chair, heck odds are she herself might just be a borg now just to keep herself alive as her normal human parts started to fail.
I can no longer use the good china?
Again are you freaking kidding me?
Why do I care about good china?
Who am I going to invite over and use good china?
The juicer?
The crazy?
Funny how you never mentioned them at all .

If I have converted to borg I am not the type of person who is going to throw a social event that would ever use "good china" to begin with.
I am too busy hunting down the evil beings that would use the meatpuppets who are more worried about social events, good china, and grandmothers rocking chair then their own safety in a world that will use them as a chew toy.
The people who are worried about such things are the ones who got the bio-systems.

As a machine if I started to not care about the "meat puppets" it's because I never cared about the meat puppets to begin with.
I now have the capability to stand between people and what can do them harm, so they can get to safety, but you apparently never bothered to notice that ability did you.
Becoming a borg doesn't change who you are unless you are already mentally unstable to begin with, it just transfers your mind into a different body.

Just because you like to play human and nothing else, you don't have the right to insist to the world it's the only thing that is worth playing, that is not roleplaying that is just forcing your view on others and I'd rather not have you at the table anyway as a friend wouldn't be so insistant on forcing people to do something they don't want to.
A borg is still human as the body alone doesn't define who you are, it's your soul.
I'm not afraid to exchange my body to protect those who won't or can't protect themselves.

If I want to play as a non-human it's because I really want to get away from the human I am in the real world and really take myself away from the life I'm living.
If you can't understand that,you have missed the whole point of roleplaying.

[keir451]

Well said Rahmota! I do enjoy playing humans and completely agree that they don't get the justice they deserve. Having said that, I do enjoy playing non-humans as well, most specifically Wolfen or Dog/Cat Boys/Girls (yes, I too have a furry fetish at times ).
Humans are the most versatile race in Palladium as they can be, literally, any class available.
The challenge of doing something different is always fun, but in the end :shtug: it's still more fun to play a human.
I occasionally like to play the CS side of things because of the tech and the challenge of having others try to convince my chara. that "everything the CS leaders have said is a lie", or coming across the info myself and coming to (for the chara.) world shattering revelations, but I also enjoy playing a non human from a lower tech society trying to understand the near magical technology of the humans i.e.; the magic of electricity, flip a switch and the lights come on(???!!!).
I, too, have felt that tech is as good if not better than magic, tho' I still enjoy playing magic using OCCs from time to time.
But my favorite chara. combos by far are human, Special Forces OCC (any variant of them) with either all Mech. and Elect. skills (where allowed) plus Military skills or human Rogue Scientist/Scholar, all using Power Armor or Large Robot vehicles ( again, where allowed) I've generally found that they can handle just about any type of monster or demon.
My favorite Palladium image of all is the one from the cover of Chaos Earth, the GB backlit by the flames of the burning city holding the American flag, it practically screams "I shall not fall!!", the Chaos Earth equivalent of the Battle of Thermopylae.

[Danger]

Funny, I don't ever recall seeing a 'I Hate Humans' thread on here. If there is one, you're going to have to point that out to me.

That said, Humans actually have great stat bonuses. Or have you forgotten that they get to roll an extra 1d6 for their stats if they roll a 16-18 on 3d6? That's potentially a 24, equal to many races who get that magical 4d6 to their stat. Then add stat bonuses from skills onto that? Still not seeing a problem. Human with 30 P.S.? I've rolled it before. In fact, I've accidentally had humans with a 20 P.S., and started with a 10. I wasn't even trying that hard. I had to purposefully avoid taking Physical Skills with my Techno-Wizard, just so I could have a P.S. of 14 and be 'weak'.

Perhaps to you, Humans may not have any obvious gee whiz racial abilities, like being able to see in the dark, or having natural MDC skin, but somehow in your argument you are apparently overlooking a very important one: Being Human. They can be virtually any class and go virtually anywhere without penalty or fear of prejudice. If the P.C. group wanders anywhere near Coalition territory, or any other places that have racial intolerance (I'm sure there are plenty), the Human is going to come out smelling like roses. One only has to take an American History class to see how crippling racial intolerance can be.

In fact, this whole argument sort of sounds like a Southern American complaining about immigrants. I'm just sayin'...

[dark brandon]

I play humans mostly. But I do consider cyborgs to be human. You give up a lot of things to be a cyborg, but you gain a lot. But you're still a human. You still have the human spirit and drive and mentality, and that's what I think of when I think of a human, so I like to play human variants, psi-stalkers, dog boys, ect. Most people I know like to play humans too or human variants.

But, I love in rifts how you can play other creatures. A dragon. How many other RPG's let you play a dragon at 1st lvl and still be somewhat balanced? I can't think of any. This is one reason I love rifts.

[taalismn]

What's wrong with humans?
For one, they complain too much when you try to stuff them in the microwave oven.

[ShadowLogan]

I have noticed on here that a lot of people seem to hate being human. That role playing doesnt seem to matter as long as they get a bunch of stat bonuses and neatopowers and have a megadamage body and can throw cars they don't care what the cost or what it means.

So someone who plays:
-a Dolphin/Whale from Underseas
-Dogboy
-mutant humans like the Psi-Stalker (they get neato powers)
-what about the SDC creatures like Centaurs, Dwarfs, Elves, etc, sure they get some neat abilities and in some cases better bonuses, but they aren't MDC bodies

I think it could be a challenge to play something without the traditional human body design (or approach to thinking) when it comes to interacting with the environment.

I mean this is called Rift EARTH. Humans where here on earth first. Oiginally the game was about the survival of humans and near humans in a world gone mad with magic and creatures and all sorts of unpleasant things. But over the years the monsters are running the show and it seems like humans are beign relgated to a second class minority at best.

Technically the True Atlantians where on Earth in the past. Or the Dinosaurs.

To be fair the original main book centered on North America. Erin Tarn did mention
-Atlantis was said to be inhabited by D-Bees from the Rifts
-the (rumors) of the Vampire Kingdoms in Mexico
-NGR has a popluation of 1.5million non-humans (5million humans), with similiar numbers for a few of its neighbors
-Calgary being under the control of demons
-Several named Communities in NA where described as not having a pure human population.
-Wisconsin was rumored to have a Dragon ruled Kingdom
-1/2 of UK population is said to be D-Bees (in one area they list the pop)
-France and Spain have 2/3 popluation as human
-India is said to be inhabited by D-Bees and few humans
-China is a playground for the Supernatural

She even admitted to lack of knowledge of some areas.

The travails of beowulf, hercules, odysseus, perseus, and tell me that you have to be somethign other than a human to stand a chance against gods and monsters.

Hercules wasn't human, he was 1/2 human.

[Balabanto]

I allow human PC's exceptional stat rolls to make up for the fact that being human pretty much is the clunker end of Rifts. It solves a lot of problems, because, as Kevin said, the PC's are supposed to be heroes. But guess what? Not all the PC's that die are human. It's why I allow N+S martial arts and a lot of other things some GMs don't allow, and guess what?

These tactics work! People play humans! And not only that, they have a GOOD TIME playing humans. The human/d-bee rate in my games is about 50/50.

[taalismn]

My favorite character thought she was human until the GM said that she wasn't. .

"Surprise! You're really a dragon with amnesia!"
"...ah...thanks...I think?"

[Mallak's Place]

What's wrong with humans?
For one, they complain too much when you try to stuff them in the microwave oven.

That's cause the Demons that put them there never rotate them half way through cooking them....

Looks Like both of you failed your Cooking skill roll. You NEVER put Human in the microwave (makes the meat taste bland) you have to put them on a skewer and Slowly Barbeque them (prefurable while thay are still alive)to get the full flavor.

[Balabanto]

The Dingo Ninja Clan?

Someone's been playing too much Champions 4th Edition. Shades of Seeker abound.

[Rahmota]

Well I gotta agree with the assessment that the metaplot power creep is partly to blame. It used to mean somethign to be a human and now with all the RCCs that gave in to people's munchkin deire to have all the power they can get with no penalties or drawbacks.

I'll agree that humans have essentially no limitations from game stats or game world. That they are THE most versitile and complex and powerful specis in the game when it comes right down to it.

This was more of a rant/complaint due to the existence of yet another munchkin thread where people all sang out their desire to betray humanity and become a monster in the cold-blooded thread.

And I agree the cover of Chaos Earth is prime example of what the game SHOULD be about. The valient stand of humanity who shall not be pushed back into the darkness who shall continue to fight and not allow the burnign flame of humanity to be extinguished. Now the game is just about how much combat can you do with all your uberpowered character.

Yeah I understand its a game and you want to play somethign you are not in the real world. I gotta ask this how many people o runnign around a future ultra tech post apocalyptic world with body armor able to stop a MBT round and a sidearm that can wipe said MBT off the fac of the earth?

Juicers? Why destroy your body, burn your lifespan up just for a drug induced power that can be cut off by your supplier if you dont obey them. Slavery is slavery no matter how much power you have. There are better ways of committing suicide.

Crazies? I haveworked with the mentally ill it is not something to be laughed off or at. The way they are presented in the game just is not exactly the most sensical.

And in game I think the loss of humanity of cyborgs i not played up enough. i enforce the loss of humanity by borgs or the character does not get experience no matter how many monsters they kill or destroy. they must be forced to understand they are no longer human. they have sacrificed their humanity, destroyed it all for power.

As for my CSA they have been changed a bit. They do allow near humans to be citizens and permit literacy and education. They are grim and hras towards creatures, monsters and those who would sell their species out for mere power. Like I said they ar closer to Right wing republicansthan they are to Nazi's. They understand that there are some shades of grey but they also understand and have seen and experienced that not everything that is not human can be trusted. That harsh measures sometimes must be taken to protect people from the thigns that go bump in the night. A harsh world is out there but people dont need to give in to it. Do not go gently into that good night but rage against the dying of the light etc....

In my game beings come inone of 4 types:
Humans: Be you from robotech, palladia, BTS, recon or Rifts earth you are human. You are the cream of the crop the lite of the beings and welcome anywhere.
Near Human: This is anythin that coul pass for huma or is close enoug to human. Elves, genmods, some mutants, psistalkers all fall into this category. Near humans are almost as welcome or unlimited as a real human.
Creature: Creatures may be sentient or non sentient but they are not an immediate danger and threat to humanity. They can be judged based on ther actions. They generally do not have a base humanoid body type and generally have other limitations. Cyborgs, the worm people, the nautyll, etc... fall into this category.
Monsters: Monsters are all a threat to humanity and must be put down for the good of the planet by all good people. They can be sentient or not but they are all dangerous threats to humanity. Cold blooded, other undead, gargoyles, demons, vampires, etc... all fall into this category.

[Shadow Wyrm]

When it comes to people not liking humans I blame the GM. Human supremicy is supposed to be common place on Rift's Earth. Not because use humans are all a bunch of raceists at heart,but becuase RE is such a dangerous place. People tend to trust only their own in times of great danger, and RE is in great danger all the time.

Gm's need to do a better job making it hard on non-humans. Alot of GM's I've known just allow D-Bees to betreated like everyone else. Which is good,but it's not in the spririt RE. D-Bees should be shut out of the common human supremisist community( which is not as common as is should be). Magic user's are feared over much of RE and should be treated as such. So, a D-Bee magic user should be greeted with violance at these places.

If you feel that playing a human on RE dosn't grant you any bonuses, then I would have to say you are not really on Rift's Earth.

[DhAkael]

It's not people hate playing humans.
Some people like the fact you don't have to play as a human, since you live every day of your real life as a human.

The cyborg loose their humanity thing is over rated and over done, one can caress their lover, just not at the same level a person used to but they still can unless they got a system with no feeling ability at all, one can smell a rose and at better ability than any human ever could, one could also see a rainbow, sunset, the moon to a higher level no human ever could without some sort of artifical help so that bit of the arguement is just insane.
Do I care that having sex is gone, no if I'm a full conversion borg the chemically induced urge has been pretty much removed.
Do I care if grandmothers rocking chair could hold me?
Are you kidding me? where would I keep grandmothers rocking chair and WHY would I keep grandmothers rocking chair, heck odds are she herself might just be a borg now just to keep herself alive as her normal human parts started to fail.
I can no longer use the good china?
Again are you freaking kidding me?
Why do I care about good china?
Who am I going to invite over and use good china?
The juicer?
The crazy?
Funny how you never mentioned them at all .

If I have converted to borg I am not the type of person who is going to throw a social event that would ever use "good china" to begin with.
I am too busy hunting down the evil beings that would use the meatpuppets who are more worried about social events, good china, and grandmothers rocking chair then their own safety in a world that will use them as a chew toy.
The people who are worried about such things are the ones who got the bio-systems.

As a machine if I started to not care about the "meat puppets" it's because I never cared about the meat puppets to begin with.
I now have the capability to stand between people and what can do them harm, so they can get to safety, but you apparently never bothered to notice that ability did you.
Becoming a borg doesn't change who you are unless you are already mentally unstable to begin with, it just transfers your mind into a different body.

Just because you like to play human and nothing else, you don't have the right to insist to the world it's the only thing that is worth playing, that is not roleplaying that is just forcing your view on others and I'd rather not have you at the table anyway as a friend wouldn't be so insistant on forcing people to do something they don't want to.
A borg is still human as the body alone doesn't define who you are, it's your soul.
I'm not afraid to exchange my body to protect those who won't or can't protect themselves.

If I want to play as a non-human it's because I really want to get away from the human I am in the real world and really take myself away from the life I'm living.
If you can't understand that,you have missed the whole point of roleplaying.

[DhAkael]

I allow human PC's exceptional stat rolls to make up for the fact that being human pretty much is the clunker end of Rifts. It solves a lot of problems, because, as Kevin said, the PC's are supposed to be heroes. But guess what? Not all the PC's that die are human. It's why I allow N+S martial arts and a lot of other things some GMs don't allow, and guess what?

These tactics work! People play humans! And not only that, they have a GOOD TIME playing humans. The human/d-bee rate in my games is about 50/50.

more like 60/40 in mine, but close enough

[DhAkael]

My personal deci-credits-worth?
Humans are the base-line jack/jane of all trades. They are easy to keep track of and easy to write up.
HOW-ev-AH not everyone wants to be a jack-of-all-trades vanilla ice-cream sundae.
Elves are pretty (and that's not including the females), fast, and very very very naturaly magic attuned, BUT their abbillity to interact with "lesser" races kinda leaves them at a disadvantage when combat or magic is NOT an issue. take a look at the MA stat sometime.
Wolfen= BIG FREAKING CANID!!! Sure they're big strong and natural warriors. They're also 7 to 12 feet tall!
Kinda hard to be unobtrusive.
Dragons (depending on played canon rules or home-brew) can only be in non-draconic form for a short period of time per day.
See previous point on wolfen.

Yet people still play these (and other) racial types. WHY?
Cuz honestly, it's FUN. NOT just becuase of the bonuses and powers, but because YOU (yes you) are human 24/7 IRL.
Role-playing is about escapism from the mundane. Period. Dot. End-it. NO discussion.
I'll admit there are some racial types I will not allow in my games (or only after I get a damn good reason for why the PC is involved in the plot) but for the most part I'll allow anything...once...in my games until it's proven that the racial type is unplayable. This also goes for OCC's (yes, even human ones). Yet again, I'll let a player try and prove my biases wrong.

Right-off-the-bat saying "HUMANS ONLY" smacks of laziness and micro-management UNLESS it is understood from char-gen that the game is going to be xenophobes only (CS) or humano-centric (Triax).

Here's a little thought exercise; take a complete munchin character and try NOT to do a Captain Testosterone.
Guess what, I've seen it happen and in fact it happens weekly in my campiagns.
Why?
As GM I allow ROLE-play as opposed to roll-play to take center stage, so lots of mental problem solving instead of "blow stuff up REAL good Jim-BoB! , and KNOWING what the weaknesses of the PC's are so challenges can be equally spread to 'mortal' humans and non-human ubers alike. You know, effort on the part of the GM.
As for the players; they, for the most part get in character and enjoy actauly puzzle soving as opposed to "blowing stuf up extremely well Jeeves.". And yes, a couple of the PC's are non-human and exteremly Uber, yet they are just a likely to get ganked as the squishies, especialy if they go "LEEEEEEERRRRRRRROOOOOOY JENkins!"

(Final comment deleted for social conformity and political correctness)

[Vrykolas2k]

Some people just don't like to play what they are.
I know I for one never play a human in any RPG where there's a choice not to do so; I just don't consider it to be that fun.
Different people just have different preferences.

[Balabanto]

My personal deci-credits-worth?
Humans are the base-line jack/jane of all trades. They are easy to keep track of and easy to write up.
HOW-ev-AH not everyone wants to be a jack-of-all-trades vanilla ice-cream sundae.
Elves are pretty (and that's not including the females), fast, and very very very naturaly magic attuned, BUT their abbillity to interact with "lesser" races kinda leaves them at a disadvantage when combat or magic is NOT an issue. take a look at the MA stat sometime.
Wolfen= BIG FREAKING CANID!!! Sure they're big strong and natural warriors. They're also 7 to 12 feet tall!
Kinda hard to be unobtrusive.
Dragons (depending on played canon rules or home-brew) can only be in non-draconic form for a short period of time per day.
See previous point on wolfen.

Yet people still play these (and other) racial types. WHY?
Cuz honestly, it's FUN. NOT just becuase of the bonuses and powers, but because YOU (yes you) are human 24/7 IRL.
Role-playing is about escapism from the mundane. Period. Dot. End-it. NO discussion.
I'll admit there are some racial types I will not allow in my games (or only after I get a damn good reason for why the PC is involved in the plot) but for the most part I'll allow anything...once...in my games until it's proven that the racial type is unplayable. This also goes for OCC's (yes, even human ones). Yet again, I'll let a player try and prove my biases wrong.

Right-off-the-bat saying "HUMANS ONLY" smacks of laziness and micro-management UNLESS it is understood from char-gen that the game is going to be xenophobes only (CS) or humano-centric (Triax).

Here's a little thought exercise; take a complete munchin character and try NOT to do a Captain Testosterone.
Guess what, I've seen it happen and in fact it happens weekly in my campiagns.
Why?
As GM I allow ROLE-play as opposed to roll-play to take center stage, so lots of mental problem solving instead of "blow stuff up REAL good Jim-BoB! , and KNOWING what the weaknesses of the PC's are so challenges can be equally spread to 'mortal' humans and non-human ubers alike. You know, effort on the part of the GM.
As for the players; they, for the most part get in character and enjoy actauly puzzle soving as opposed to "blowing stuf up extremely well Jeeves.". And yes, a couple of the PC's are non-human and exteremly Uber, yet they are just a likely to get ganked as the squishies, especialy if they go "LEEEEEEERRRRRRRROOOOOOY JENkins!"

(Final comment deleted for social conformity and political correctness)

When my players don't shout the mantra of Leroy, sometimes, they STILL get killed. I had a GMPC almost die to a bleeping Forager Battlebot because they didn't know what it was once, and then I was like 16 MRMs? You have GOT to be kidding me. Volley of 4 missiles. Amazon fires at volley. Gets the necessary number, roll percentile dice. Half the volley hits. First missile destroys armor, second missile 20 TOTAL MDC left on character. And that was AFTER dropping prone. People always mock the Forager. I have no understanding of why.

Nonetheless, there are so many ways to get killed in Rifts it boggles the mind. Recon! Recon! Recon! Find out who your enemies are BEFORE you engage them. NEVER think it's over, even if it looks like it's over. Stay sharp, or one day, you'll probably die. Right now, my players are all cocky in one group because they trashed this Ogre Kineticist named Guktar Tagos. Sadly, he is backed by the Splugorth and works with the Kittani. Now that he's dead, someone else much less civil will step in to take over the operation. (One Sunaj. That's all I need if he's 7th level and smart) That's the problem with corporations. Kill the CEO, they appoint a new one.

[runebeo]

Human characters have lots of pros in Rifts like being able easily come & go in Coalition territory and only humans are going to get inside the CS fortified cities. One of the few races that can get magic tattoos is also a nice perk, but then Palladium adds into the mix incredible powerful races pretty much appear human like Achilles Neo-Humans, True Atlanteans, Sea Inquisitors, Lost Ones, Star Child Earth Child and others that can shapeshift like dragon hatchlings & Norse Giants. Theses kind of characters come with allot more bang for the buck, be it extra I.S.P.. P.P.E., bonuses and extra abilities that will help to keep you character alive and bring more on a fantasy feeling to the game like Star Wars well mixed group of races, but ya human seem to play a very big part or if stick with mainly humans you get a Starship troopers feel which is fun as well. No one can tell me seeing Lanotaur added to playable R.C.C. wasn't a little tempting to try out. Imagine if a Lanotaur bonded with a Riathenors symbiote armor, talk about Déjà vu!

[Rayven]

And in game I think the loss of humanity of cyborgs i not played up enough. i enforce the loss of humanity by borgs or the character does not get experience no matter how many monsters they kill or destroy. they must be forced to understand they are no longer human. they have sacrificed their humanity, destroyed it all for power.

What.

No, that was not a question. It was a statement.

You don't give ANY experience to a player whose character is a cyborg unless they PLAY UP A LOSS OF HUMANITY?!?!

That's some **** insanity on a GM right there. CYBORGS ARE HUMAN. Go read the Rifts Main Book again if you don't believe that. Even a full conversion borg still has a HUMAN BRAIN. Human conscious. Human thought patterns. Partial conversion borgs are still flesh and blood. Where do you get off saying that a guy with a cybernetic arm and a bionic eye can't get XP because he's not human?

Remind me never to game at your table, ever. That's just asinine and ridiculous.

As far as hating humans....I'm sure that I am part of why this thread was created. That doesn't bother me. I have played a campaign that lasted 10 months where I was human, but that wasn't a Rifts game. It was a D&D 3.5 Iron Heroes game, where human was the only choice. I loved that character, right up until he got butchered (literally) by one of the other PCs. I have played SEVERAL games where I was a human (including a Rifts game where I was a Burster, and every game my borg was in [I will not be swayed on the cyborg=human issue, so don't try]).

My absolute favorite game of all time, though, was the game where I played a Gromek. I had 7 pages, typed, of character background, including phobias and manias that were played out over the course of the game. I had an heirloom weapon that I got penalties in combat unless I used it, for weapon familiarity reasons. I felt the pangs of racism and xenophobia, almost to the extent that you seemingly promote in your PCs.

And don't even get me started on what's wrong with your statement about the "humanity" of Beowulf (who was able to swim underneath a lake and fight Grendel underwater, at depths that it would be impossible to reach without S.C.U.B.A. gear), Hercules (the son of a god, with extraordinarily superhuman strength), or Perseus (who cut the head off of Medusa, a gorgon who turned all living flesh to stone...all flesh, that is, except Perseus himself).

[Prince Artemis]

IIRC, the incentive for playing human was they they were the only race that got the 'excellence' bonus. As in if you roll 16 or higer you get the +1d6. However that was eventually changed to include all races.

Another big incentive is that they're one of the few races that can effectively BE anything. There's no real restrictions for human psyhics, human mages, human warriors, human augments, super powered humans, ect.

Personally, I enjoy playing humans in some games (actually I like playing the wearker but more well rounded characters of my group). Why? Because their's more of a thrill involved. If you're character can shake off a bullet wound then mexican standoffs, and similiar instances mean nothing. Major accomplishments mean nothing as well. A human hero runs in, out numbered and under-armed, and manages to capture a base or some such and it's a big deal. A huge super powerful tank walks in and does it and whooped-dee-doo. He should have been able to do it quicker and easier than he did

[Shark_Force]

[sarcasm] you know what i hate, is when people choose characters in roleplaying games that aren't exactly identical to themselves. that's why when i'm GM, nobody is allowed to play an OCC unless they have skills in real life that reflect that OCC. i mean, if you can't summon a greater demon, you have no business being a shifter, and you better not even *think* about playing a mind melter unless you can demonstrate a mastery of all your different psionic powers. and forget about cyber-docs unless you have a real life ability to perform cybernetic and bionic uprade procedures. same with operators, unless you can demonstrate a working knowledge of repairing everything, don't even think about playing one. also, in order to be an RPA character, you need a real, working robot or power armor (complete with nuclear power supply, energy weapons, railguns, and missiles, of course). i mean seriously, what kind of lame excuse for roleplaying is it to take any OCC that you yourself don't effectively already have? and also, anyone else who plays different me is lame and doing it wrong. [/sarcasm]

seriously, get off your high horse... you sound like you're taking your hobby a little bit too seriously. this is a game. have FUN. and if other people are playing the game in a different way than you, well, guess what: if they're having FUN, they are doing it right, no matter how they're doing it (possible exception if they're playing FATAL or Spawn of Fashan... i'd link to reviews, but i suspect the FATAL review would not be deemed appropriate to link to for multiple reasons... if you *really* want to find out more about those games, you can google for reviews of them yourself)

[Spinachcat]

I mean this is called Rift EARTH. Humans where here on earth first. Oiginally the game was about the survival of humans and near humans in a world gone mad with magic and creatures and all sorts of unpleasant things. But over the years the monsters are running the show and it seems like humans are beign relgated to a second class minority at best.

Agreed. Rifts has mutated away from its core premise. That's why I enjoy Chaos Earth so much. It gets right back to the basics of survival of humanity against the inhuman.

And that is what gets me a lot of people treat adn act like there are no restrictions or costs to playign a non-human. Or if there are they ignore them.

As others have said, this is a GM issue. I never expect players to roleplay the downside of a character - I have to set that stage and drive that point home. As always, the GM should lay down his thoughts during chargen at the start of the campaign. If you use XP, you can always use RP awards as a carrot too. But most importantly, the GM needs to be clear with his players. That ain't rocket science.

The ramifications of playign a cyborg for instance.

If you want those ramifications, then discuss them with the players and show them the downside of cyborgs by letting them see NPC Cyborgs in your game.

Although with virtual reality, a cyborg would be able to "feel" and have all the experiences of a meatpuppet while in the digital domain. In my games, cyborgs love to jack in during down time to feel "meaty" again.

The travails of beowulf, hercules, odysseus, perseus, and tell me that you have to be somethign other than a human to stand a chance against gods and monsters.

I have read those stories and they all had really wimpy GMs. Especially Perseus.

This game used to be more fun when it was about the humans and their unwavering, unyielding fighting desire to live and survive and thive even against the odds and pressures of relentless attacks by creatues and monsters from beyond. Now he monsters and creatures have won.

Says who? It is your campaign. You determine how you want the world to operate. The books do not rule your campaign world. You do!

[Rallan]

I have noticed on here that a lot of people seem to hate being human. That role playing doesnt seem to matter as long as they get a bunch of stat bonuses and neatopowers and have a megadamage body and can throw cars they don't care what the cost or what it means.

It's because Rifts has always been a very combat-heavy RPG with a strong focus on action rather than character growth, political intrigue, explorations of morality, or the various things that more recent RPGs from other publishers have had a look at. Don't believe me? Look at the books. A very large chunk of virtually every book is made up of cool gear for blowing things up, cool classes that know how to blow things up, and nefarious monsters to blow up. Between them, they often get more lines of text than the setting info (which has a big focus on who's blowing who up anyway). The bulk of cybernetics and bionics are for blowing stuff up, protecting yourself from being blown up, and being more sneaky or observant while blowing things up. Ditto for most spells and psionics. So you know straight off the bat that combat is a big part of Rifts, that a character who can handle himself in a fight is a good idea, and that any GM who says his campaign is "combat light" is probably telling terrible terrible lies.

Second up, it's a kitchen-sink fantasy/SF/action setting where the rule of cool is turned up to eleven. Japanese cyborgs that look like dragons and breathe fire fight oni demons. A whole empire of gargoyles is stomping around Europe in 60 foot tall robots. America's greatest empire are a bunch of fascist stormtroopers that fly around in big skull-headed airplanes and kick demon ass with a robot spider that's a giant skull on legs. Vampires openly rule half of Mexico in an empire of blood. Atlantis is a kingdom of monsters and badass mecha. The descendants of the US Navy keep the Pacific Ocean safe in a giant submersible stealthed aircraft carrier, and are ever vigilant against a sea monster with tentacles that are LONGER THAN PLANET EARTH.

Basically this is not an RPG that says "Buy me if you want to play a regular guy in a world gone mad". It's an RPG that says "Buy me because you can play a drug-enhanced supersoldier or a blade-festooned cyborg or drive a giant mech or be an armor-plated magical knight who can fly to distant stars without a spaceship be a demon who can tear everyone's faces off!" So naturally a lot of players aren't going to want plain-jane characters (if they did they'd be playing something else), they want characters that a) seem pretty rad and b) have pretty rad stats.

And let's be honest, vanilla humans do not have pretty rad stats. Your odds of rolling a 16+ and getting one or more bonus dice to an attribute are 1 in 20. You get HP and SDC instead of natural MDC. You don't get any free skills (apart from your native language) or free combat bonuses for being human. You don't get free spells or free supernatural powers. If you don't pick a psychic class, you've only got a 1 in 4 chance of being a minor or major psychic. There's also nothing inherently rad about the concept of a human. He's the familiar everyman, the joe average, the default that we all know. For people who want a game where the Awesome Dial is turned up to 11, a regular human just isn't gonna do it.

Now an augmented human class, or a non-human species, they turn it up to 11. A lot of them are distillations of everything your inner twelve year old could want. Statwise they're walking cans of whoopass. Depending on what you pick you can end up with huge stat bonuses, combat bonuses, natural MDC, free spells or psionics or natural abilities before you pick a class, immortality, immunity to all sorts of stuff, free skills before you pick a class, and heaps of other goodies. And on the awesome front, it's more awesome than a double-necked guitar made out of bats that are on fire. Juicer? It's like being a ninja on PCPs! Crazy? It's like being The Joker if he was raised by ninjas! Cyborg? It's like being Robocop but with six arms and big blades and a chest full of rockets! Dragon Juicer? You're a ninja on PCPs that are MADE OUT OF DRAGONS! Ninja Juicer? It's like being a ninja on PCPs, only you're also a ninja and OMG DIVIDED BY ZERO! And the non-human options have so many flavours of ridiculous awesomeness that I'm not even going to get into it.

So if you want to know why lots of people don't pick vanilla human characters, the "I need to be able to survive anything" approach to chargen and the Rule of Cool are the main reasons.

And if you want to avoid it, don't run kitchen sink campaigns. If you're running a North American game, ask yourself why the hell you're allowing character classes from Japan or Orbit or Phase World. If you want to play a gitty game of crime and street gangs, ask yourself why the hell you're allowing Anti-Monsters and Brodkil and Mega-Juicers. Basically if you want to have some sort of theme and coherence to your game, you have to learn to say "no" to a lot of things the players might suggest, and remind them that this game is supposed to be set in this place and with these kinds of characters and that they can't go through all ten million books mixing and matching whatever they want.

[Kagashi]

On http://www.explorersunlimited.com, I recently did a survey on the demographics of all the characters playing in the Merctown game. I will present the numbers and then give my conclusion at the end. I think this is a great place to present this data because it is a true representation to what people gravitate to and there is a large number of people who play on the site as opposed to playing with the same core of people every Saturday.

This data is a few months old, so it does not reflect the current numbers on the site. At the time, there were 85 characters in the Merctown game.

Total number of characters: 85
Humans: 57 (67%)

of those humans:
Mutants/psionics: 14 (24%)
Magic: 7 (12%)
Tech augmentation (juicers, borgs, headhunters): 11 (19%)
No augmentation out of human population: 25 (43%)

No augmentation out of all characters regardless of race: 25/85 (29%)

So, you can see that out of ALL the different races to play, most people gravitate to plain old humans. A good 30% of characters have no augmentation of any kind (not even taking into account race). No magic, no psionics, no technological enhancements. Nothing. Just pure human with a good old laser pistol and suit of body armor.

As a matter of a fact, we are hoping more races are going to be played. According to the Merctown book, we are OVER by 7% the number of humans that reside in the city.

I personally think that most people play humans because that is what they are familiar with.

Anyway, humans have their own benefits. They are the only race that gets extra dice rolls to extraordinary attributes "just because". And they are the only race that can pretty much be any Occupational Character Class. Almost every type of augmentation can be applied to humans and humans have the potential of not only learning magic but has the potential of any psionic abilities as well. Other races are not so fortunate and are more one dimensional. Even "neato attribute" races like True Atlanteans are restricted to Character Classes and augmentation of sorts.

So, as you can see, as the stat data supports, humans are represented fairly and make up the majority of characters in a subjective-free environment. Without knowing the topic of this thread, a large number of players still made humans pretty much on par with what the books reported.

It may just be the core group of players you are playing with that gravitate to other races.

[Rayven]

Now an augmented human class, or a non-human species, they turn it up to 11. A lot of them are distillations of everything your inner twelve year old could want. Statwise they're walking cans of whoopass. Depending on what you pick you can end up with huge stat bonuses, combat bonuses, natural MDC, free spells or psionics or natural abilities before you pick a class, immortality, immunity to all sorts of stuff, free skills before you pick a class, and heaps of other goodies. And on the awesome front, it's more awesome than a double-necked guitar made out of bats that are on fire. Juicer? It's like being a ninja on PCPs! Crazy? It's like being The Joker if he was raised by ninjas! Cyborg? It's like being Robocop but with six arms and big blades and a chest full of rockets! Dragon Juicer? You're a ninja on PCPs that are MADE OUT OF DRAGONS! Ninja Juicer? It's like being a ninja on PCPs, only you're also a ninja and OMG DIVIDED BY ZERO! And the non-human options have so many flavours of ridiculous awesomeness that I'm not even going to get into it.

Nomintation for "Paragraph of the Year Award"

[Balabanto]

Now an augmented human class, or a non-human species, they turn it up to 11. A lot of them are distillations of everything your inner twelve year old could want. Statwise they're walking cans of whoopass. Depending on what you pick you can end up with huge stat bonuses, combat bonuses, natural MDC, free spells or psionics or natural abilities before you pick a class, immortality, immunity to all sorts of stuff, free skills before you pick a class, and heaps of other goodies. And on the awesome front, it's more awesome than a double-necked guitar made out of bats that are on fire. Juicer? It's like being a ninja on PCPs! Crazy? It's like being The Joker if he was raised by ninjas! Cyborg? It's like being Robocop but with six arms and big blades and a chest full of rockets! Dragon Juicer? You're a ninja on PCPs that are MADE OUT OF DRAGONS! Ninja Juicer? It's like being a ninja on PCPs, only you're also a ninja and OMG DIVIDED BY ZERO! And the non-human options have so many flavours of ridiculous awesomeness that I'm not even going to get into it.

Nomintation for "Paragraph of the Year Award"

It's like fighting Evander Holyfield, only he's made of grenades and shoots angry baboons out of his wrists! Don't let Bolivia off the hook! It knows what it did! Drink Brutomax now! Quit being human, start being brutal!

[Corinth]

No one wants to play the squishy. In RIFTS, mundane humans are squishy. Augmented humans are, to various degrees, less squishy. As players can choose non-humans or alt-humans that aren't squishy, and yet can take up the occupations that interest players, it's not at all surprising to see a stampede away from mundane humans in any game where the Game Master doesn't forbid such options as legal Player-Characters.

[Balabanto]

No one wants to play the squishy. In RIFTS, mundane humans are squishy. Augmented humans are, to various degrees, less squishy. As players can choose non-humans or alt-humans that aren't squishy, and yet can take up the occupations that interest players, it's not at all surprising to see a stampede away from mundane humans in any game where the Game Master doesn't forbid such options as legal Player-Characters.

Well, you can play a human. Just play a Battle Magus and you'll easily be far superior to many mega-damage creatures.

[Danger]

I have noticed on here that a lot of people seem to hate being human. That role playing doesnt seem to matter as long as they get a bunch of stat bonuses and neatopowers and have a megadamage body and can throw cars they don't care what the cost or what it means.

It's because Rifts has always been a very combat-heavy RPG with a strong focus on action rather than character growth, political intrigue, explorations of morality, or the various things that more recent RPGs from other publishers have had a look at. Don't believe me? Look at the books. A very large chunk of virtually every book is made up of cool gear for blowing things up, cool classes that know how to blow things up, and nefarious monsters to blow up. Between them, they often get more lines of text than the setting info (which has a big focus on who's blowing who up anyway). The bulk of cybernetics and bionics are for blowing stuff up, protecting yourself from being blown up, and being more sneaky or observant while blowing things up. Ditto for most spells and psionics. So you know straight off the bat that combat is a big part of Rifts, that a character who can handle himself in a fight is a good idea, and that any GM who says his campaign is "combat light" is probably telling terrible terrible lies.

Second up, it's a kitchen-sink fantasy/SF/action setting where the rule of cool is turned up to eleven. Japanese cyborgs that look like dragons and breathe fire fight oni demons. A whole empire of gargoyles is stomping around Europe in 60 foot tall robots. America's greatest empire are a bunch of fascist stormtroopers that fly around in big skull-headed airplanes and kick demon ass with a robot spider that's a giant skull on legs. Vampires openly rule half of Mexico in an empire of blood. Atlantis is a kingdom of monsters and badass mecha. The descendants of the US Navy keep the Pacific Ocean safe in a giant submersible stealthed aircraft carrier, and are ever vigilant against a sea monster with tentacles that are LONGER THAN PLANET EARTH.

Basically this is not an RPG that says "Buy me if you want to play a regular guy in a world gone mad". It's an RPG that says "Buy me because you can play a drug-enhanced supersoldier or a blade-festooned cyborg or drive a giant mech or be an armor-plated magical knight who can fly to distant stars without a spaceship be a demon who can tear everyone's faces off!" So naturally a lot of players aren't going to want plain-jane characters (if they did they'd be playing something else), they want characters that a) seem pretty rad and b) have pretty rad stats.

And let's be honest, vanilla humans do not have pretty rad stats. Your odds of rolling a 16+ and getting one or more bonus dice to an attribute are 1 in 20. You get HP and SDC instead of natural MDC. You don't get any free skills (apart from your native language) or free combat bonuses for being human. You don't get free spells or free supernatural powers. If you don't pick a psychic class, you've only got a 1 in 4 chance of being a minor or major psychic. There's also nothing inherently rad about the concept of a human. He's the familiar everyman, the joe average, the default that we all know. For people who want a game where the Awesome Dial is turned up to 11, a regular human just isn't gonna do it.

Now an augmented human class, or a non-human species, they turn it up to 11. A lot of them are distillations of everything your inner twelve year old could want. Statwise they're walking cans of whoopass. Depending on what you pick you can end up with huge stat bonuses, combat bonuses, natural MDC, free spells or psionics or natural abilities before you pick a class, immortality, immunity to all sorts of stuff, free skills before you pick a class, and heaps of other goodies. And on the awesome front, it's more awesome than a double-necked guitar made out of bats that are on fire. Juicer? It's like being a ninja on PCPs! Crazy? It's like being The Joker if he was raised by ninjas! Cyborg? It's like being Robocop but with six arms and big blades and a chest full of rockets! Dragon Juicer? You're a ninja on PCPs that are MADE OUT OF DRAGONS! Ninja Juicer? It's like being a ninja on PCPs, only you're also a ninja and OMG DIVIDED BY ZERO! And the non-human options have so many flavours of ridiculous awesomeness that I'm not even going to get into it.

So if you want to know why lots of people don't pick vanilla human characters, the "I need to be able to survive anything" approach to chargen and the Rule of Cool are the main reasons.

And if you want to avoid it, don't run kitchen sink campaigns. If you're running a North American game, ask yourself why the hell you're allowing character classes from Japan or Orbit or Phase World. If you want to play a gitty game of crime and street gangs, ask yourself why the hell you're allowing Anti-Monsters and Brodkil and Mega-Juicers. Basically if you want to have some sort of theme and coherence to your game, you have to learn to say "no" to a lot of things the players might suggest, and remind them that this game is supposed to be set in this place and with these kinds of characters and that they can't go through all ten million books mixing and matching whatever they want.

Goddamn this whole post made me laugh. Well said!

[Dog_O_War]

POST OF AWESOME.

You speak more truth about why people want to specifically play Rifts than I have heard from anyone, even my own inner monologue.


People, if you think you have something further to contribute, please read Rallans' post and then consider it said.

[Rallan]

POST OF AWESOME.

You speak more truth about why people want to specifically play Rifts than I have heard from anyone, even my own inner monologue.

Well god knows nobody's buying it for its believable setting, its plausible metaplot developments, its clever game mechanics and balanced stats, or its encouragement of rich plot- and character-driven storylines

[Astral Pantheon]

Whats so wrong about humans?

Needs a little salt and a bash of basil then humans will Taste So Good

[Rahmota]

I enjoy playing humans in some games (actually I like playing the wearker but more well rounded characters of my group). Why? Because their's more of a thrill involved. If you're character can shake off a bullet wound then mexican standoffs, and similiar instances mean nothing. Major accomplishments mean nothing as well. A human hero runs in, out numbered and under-armed, and manages to capture a base or some such and it's a big deal. A huge super powerful tank walks in and does it and whooped-dee-doo. He should have been able to do it quicker and easier than he did

Exactly I see you understand. The more powerful a creature is the less experience it deserves for combat as thre is less threat to it than ever. If the creature doesnt have to struggle, doesnt have to face a real threat of death destruction or being crippled for life then there is no value to what they did. They dont deserve as much experience as someone who has to face all that.

some bat-**** insanity on a GM right there. CYBORGS ARE HUMAN. Go read the Rifts Main Book again if you don't believe that.

No I dont care what the RMB says a full conversion borg is NOT a human. They are a brain in a jar. A shell of metal and plastic that does not react, feel, or connect to humanity the same way ever again unless they grow a clone body. i recall one of the better games we had was when one of the players got so injured they had to be borged against their will and they went on a quest to cure themselves of this curse and become human again. And yeah they can VR to have some sensations but that way leads to more loss of connection as they come back to reality and have to deal with all they lost, remembering all they had while in VR and they can become addicted to the VR so they can have a real life again.

And actually I dont run a by the book Rifts Game (as if you couldnt notice) and out of the half dozen or so players we have only 1 has ever complained about my Rifts game being pro human/humanocentric. And he at least will play near humans. I was more commenting on the attitudes here on the discussion board where it seems like most people are willing to flush their humanity away just for some false sense of power and claim its all to increase the fun. Personally a character that walk throuhg a hail of gun fire, throw cars around like nerf balls, and has no threat to themselves is BORING, worthless, not at all interesting.

[Danger]

Exactly I see you understand. The more powerful a creature is the less experience it deserves for combat as thre is less threat to it than ever. If the creature doesnt have to struggle, doesnt have to face a real threat of death destruction or being crippled for life then there is no value to what they did. They dont deserve as much experience as someone who has to face all that.

Soooo...if a Non-Human and a Human contribute equally to a combat, the Non-Human gets less experience?

Wow.

That's an all new level of hate towards DeeBees.

No I dont care what the RMB says a full conversion borg is NOT a human. They are a brain in a jar. A shell of metal and plastic that does not react, feel, or connect to humanity the same way ever again unless they grow a clone body. i recall one of the better games we had was when one of the players got so injured they had to be borged against their will and they went on a quest to cure themselves of this curse and become human again. And yeah they can VR to have some sensations but that way leads to more loss of connection as they come back to reality and have to deal with all they lost, remembering all they had while in VR and they can become addicted to the VR so they can have a real life again.

Suspension of disbelief. Also, this is Rifts, not Cyberpunk, and though I love the latter, what you're talking about is clearly house rules. Role-playing should never be forced. This is exactly what you are talking about. "If you don't play X character exactly the way I hath envisioned them to be played, then I shall smite thee most vigorously and directly. For lo, I am the GM, Lord, God, Almighty. Praise be my name. Amen."

And actually I dont run a by the book Rifts Game (as if you couldnt notice) and out of the half dozen or so players we have only 1 has ever complained about my Rifts game being pro human/humanocentric. And he at least will play near humans. I was more commenting on the attitudes here on the discussion board where it seems like most people are willing to flush their humanity away just for some false sense of power and claim its all to increase the fun. Personally a character that walk throuhg a hail of gun fire, throw cars around like nerf balls, and has no threat to themselves is BORING, worthless, not at all interesting.

Yeah, that's pretty obvious. You know, just because your players are afraid to complain doesn't mean they don't have any complaints.

You also seem pretty heavy handed with the accusations of 'most' of the people that post here. Sorry, but wrong. I happen to usually play humans in Rifts games, as many others have also stated. I do, however, have a healthy respect for those who choose otherwise.

Playing the Powerhouse can be gleeful fun, I can attest to that, and what exactly is wrong with that? Fun is fun, no matter what wrapping it comes in. Being powerful isn't synonymous with invincible. MDC beings can still be hurt, damaged, and/or killed. I fail to see the problem.

[Vrykolas2k]

Personally, I find that people who look down on other peoples' character choices and/or force them to play something they don't want to are bad RPers, and lack imagination.

[Rayven]

At this point you are coming across as someone attacking or looking down on others for not playing the kind of game you like. I'm not saying that that is your personal attitude or intention, but that is the impression you are giving to me and from the other responses it seems to be the one you are giving to others. As long as this is the impression you are giving out the people who don't agree with you are going to be diffensive at best.

Ding

[Danger]

Was there some post deletion going on or am I missing something? (Could be both, I suppose)

[Rahmota]

Well sorry but actually I am the one feelign a bit defensive here. I mean it seems like to me that all people wanna play are the power mad munchkin races and dont give any respect to humans or consideration for humans. Anytime there is a discussion of would you sell out your humanity to become this big ubermencsh species all you hear are a bunch of metoos and discussion on how to munchkin the creature out even more. It really wasnt intended to be an attack or insult just a pointed question as to why so many people are unwilling to see the unlimited possibilities in humans. why the game has moved into the direction it has. More of a complaint that Rifts has become more boring to me than not in its meta plots and games. I have not bought a game book since CWC as they are all useless. Filled with one more overpowered RCC, power creep beyond power creep. Either that or one more advanced civilization, one more alien intelligence, one more uber threat to the entire earth. *sigh*

And sorry but I dont see how playign an all CS game limits my characters and neither do they. And believe me after having gamed with the same core group of people for nigh on 20 years, married to one of my group for 12 years, and the newest member of my group being my 15 year old son we have no communication problms. Trust me if my wife is not happy about ANYTHING! I hear about it. So dont try and intimate that I am some kind of tyrant or something. This group and this game evolved over time into what we have now. Our games run the gamut from simple clear and sweep of invading creatures and monsters to political intrigue to a few romance novel mush.

and actually to tell you what you have to impose limits on chaacters for the simple reason that if you dont then that actually can work to decrease the fun available. that can actually increase the amount of player frustration and strife as if the party cannot work together in a way that is believeable where each of the characters can know and trust and not turn the game into a PvP death brawl (unless it was designed as such from the begining) then you have failed as a GM. Setting up fences for the players to run between is part of the job of a GM. The trick is to either make the fences hard and visible or soft and invisible. I prefer to choose hard and visible so that there is no doubt, no question no wiggle room as to what sort of game i run. And you know what I have not had anyone turn down a chance to sit at my table. Hell I've even been paid to GM before. And like I sadi I also run other games and run each of them quite differently. I run shadowrun. Since the primary consideratino for most chaacter there is greed I dont care what sort of character the players want. Star Wars.All I say when we start a campaign is that I am running either an imperial or a rebel campaign and which era. From there the characters jsut kinda flow, some of which are the same characters we hav essentially played from the old republic game i started all the way to the New Republic. D&D and victoriana and the other one shots i sometiems run all have different flavors. The flavor I like the best for Rifts is like I said the heroic struggle of humans to repel the invading hordes from their world. I like it, my players like it and thank you very much for your opinions on the matter (as well as the few personal insults I have received. While I do have a moustache it is closer to a fu manchu than a toothbrush thank you very much.)

My friend with the furry fetish has run games where I was not allowed to play a human at all. No choices there either. In a diplomatic process that would have made israel and palestine drinking buddies he and i worked out where for every non-human i play in his world he plays a human in mine. So I have had this argument of human versus non-human so many times before with him as well. He keeps wantin to put his mind in the llittle box that says I am a human so humans are too limited because I cannot do all kidns of stuff in the real world. BAh humbug I say to that argument.

Can you run around in power armor blasting demons with a huge ass railgun? can you fly a high speed sky cycle raining death down on invading hordes of creatures? no. Can you skim across the rooftops on a magnatronic hoverboard runnign from gig to gig as a slicer? Discover a cure for some alien bioweapon? no. I mean if done properly there is absolutely NOTHING that a human cannot do through technology and their intellect that some creature or monster does by their simple genetic quirks.

Soooo...if a Non-Human and a Human contribute equally to a combat, the Non-Human gets less experience?

Yep because the combat is a lot easier for them and the threat is less. If they are a near human that has the same vulnerabilities as a human then i will consider it fair to give them similar to the human depending on their individual actions. but if the creature is an MDC body already then that deducts 50% of the experience right off the top just because any combat is goign to be a lot easier for them than a human.

MDC beings can still be hurt, damaged, and/or killed.

yeah but not as easily. Not as effectively and not the same as a human. The threat to an MDC creature is a lot lower than the threat to a human in the same or similar circumstances.

anyhow as this discussion is I see rapidly starting to become about me personally (and starting to drift off into my personal email account) I shall not respond to any further comments. My original intent was to throw up a rant about all the human hated I saw but since people are fine with the hatred of humans and want their munchkin festival then fine. I take my leave of this.

[The Beast]

Exactly I see you understand. The more powerful a creature is the less experience it deserves for combat as thre is less threat to it than ever. If the creature doesnt have to struggle, doesnt have to face a real threat of death destruction or being crippled for life then there is no value to what they did. They dont deserve as much experience as someone who has to face all that.

Soooo...if a Non-Human and a Human contribute equally to a combat, the Non-Human gets less experience?

I think he means if said non-human was something like a dragon it would get less xp than a human would get for facing the sane threat.

[The Beast]

... I mean it seems like to me that all people wanna play are the power mad munchkin races and dont give any respect to humans or consideration for humans...

Actually most of my PCs have been normal humans. The only exceptions are my HU PCs (one mutant human, one alien), my NB PC, my vampire, and my borg.

Oh and the PW game we were playing my guy was a SDC alien in a game that had everyone else as MDC beings. When we went through and started upgrading him to match everyone else I ended up only taking a couple of the upgrades and kept him as a SDC creature. Later I had used AU:GG to give him genetic upgrades, but still nothing as powerful as the rest of the group.

[Rallan]

Personally, I find that people who look down on other peoples' character choices and/or force them to play something they don't want to are bad RPers, and lack imagination.

See now here I'm gonna have to disagree very muchly. I'm going to generously allow you to say your piece first though.

[Danger]

Funny, I don't ever recall seeing a 'I Hate Humans' thread on here. If there is one, you're going to have to point that out to me.

In fact, this whole argument sort of sounds like a Southern American complaining about immigrants. I'm just sayin'...

Off topic, but how can you make a point about baseless generalizations by making a baseless generalization? I'm not sure if you mean't someone from a southern U.S. State or someone from South America, so I don't know If I should be offended or not...

That was the point. I just used a real-world example and compared it to his beef with non-humans.

[Balabanto]

Well, I have an experience point penalty chart where I assign experience penalties for really munchkin stuff. If most of your players are smart, and mine are, there's always a way to creatively use abilities and do good things.

Some things just get penalties, like TA Cyberknights, TA Battle Magus, and Gurgoyle Psi-Warrior.

[Vrykolas2k]

Personally, I find that people who look down on other peoples' character choices and/or force them to play something they don't want to are bad RPers, and lack imagination.

See now here I'm gonna have to disagree very muchly. I'm going to generously allow you to say your piece first though.

Ya, well, you're a doodie-head.

[TechnoGothic]

Funny, I don't ever recall seeing a 'I Hate Humans' thread on here. If there is one, you're going to have to point that out to me.

In fact, this whole argument sort of sounds like a Southern American complaining about immigrants. I'm just sayin'...

Off topic, but how can you make a point about baseless generalizations by making a baseless generalization? I'm not sure if you mean't someone from a southern U.S. State or someone from South America, so I don't know If I should be offended or not...

That was the point. I just used a real-world example and compared it to his beef with non-humans.

We Southern Americans complain about ILLEGAL immigrants. Get it right.

[Rallan]

Personally, I find that people who look down on other peoples' character choices and/or force them to play something they don't want to are bad RPers, and lack imagination.

See now here I'm gonna have to disagree very muchly. I'm going to generously allow you to say your piece first though.

Ya, well, you're a doodie-head.

Counterpoint: The "I WANNA BE A NINJA" guy.

He's an idiot. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a bad RPer and lacks imagination

[random_username]

Humans tend to be cannon fodder. Most military humans are part of large human armies: CS, NGR, Japanese, Russian, etc. Even when thse soldiers when armed to the teeth and heavily armored they are intended to roam in large groups. This means groups of roughly platoon sized (40 troops) even when broken down into smaller squads for tactical arrangements. Even then they are still part of an even bigger army which is usually nearby and only a quick radio call away. This means being able to generally easily mobilize up to 10x that amount in under 5 minutes. That alone tends to deter any intelligent opponents from attacking them.

Solitary humans do not generally have the same benefits and are generally NOT part of one of the human-only armies. In fact if properly dealt with once outside purely human areas they probably should be frequently disliked by most non-humans.

The main reason to be a normal human would be to be a citizen of the main relevant military human civilization (CS, NGR, Japan, Russian, etc.). Only those that have a closed-door to non-citizens policy tend to be relevant.

The main benefits:
- be a citizen: then can enter & leave the cities of that empire
- easy: may be former/retired military OCC from that empire with relevant contacts and possibly special extra training (CS Officer, Psi-Battalion, etc.).
- fairly easy: may be able to develop/have contacts in the politicians and military of that empire which may allow numerous possibilities (most CS leaders are corrupt and open to bribes, etc. but only if it can be done discretely & reliably - D-Bee bribes would not be discreet)
- moderately easy: if very careful may also be able to get away with having super abilities (mainly Scholar & Adventurers; see Conversion Book One & Skraypers dimension book)
- very unlikely: leaves the potential to switch to certain OCCs later: Full Conversion Cyborg, Juicer, Tatoo Man, etc.
- very unlikely: may be able to benefit from direct sales of rare alien tech to that empire (non-humans just killed & item confiscated; or have to go through Black Market for 20% value; etc.)

[runebeo]

I played with an all human Rifts game in the 90's and in the end half of them became full or partial borgs since we try to play as realistic as we could. A good mix of different races is one of the main things that draws me to play Rifts. No other game that i know of lets you play anything from a tiny faerie or as large as a monstrous 40 foot tall norse giant or a killer whale or something as alien as a Zembahk Mystic Worm. Rifts has it all.