Mecha Campaign Idea

[curb]

A while back, before the Group I was gaming with decided to fall apart at the seams, involving at least one relationship break up, I had offered an idea, do a Mechwarrior style Rifts Campaign. Now before I get told to not convert other intellectual material, what I am offering is a concept based on the idea behind most Mechwarrior games.

Basically, the PCs are Power Armor or Bot pilots working as a small unit or part of a larger force working their way around the Megaverse. Unlike the few Rifts games I ran before the breakup, this would involve primarily a heavy on the mecha group. Along with PA and Bot pilots, other Armor pilots(like tank or apc crews), Operators, Body Fixers and the like would be the primary OCCs involved. Since I am suggesting that this be run in the Megaverse as a whole, the crew would have access to basically any PA and Bots that they might want.

That being said, the groups make up and origins would dictate their primary hardware, for example if they were working for the Transgalactic Empire, their hardware would be from that sphere of influence, where if they are freelance they could access pretty much anything by going to Center on Phase World.

Mind you, this is just the rough concept I created before the group broke up, so I don't have much detail outside of the basics. Feel free to run with this idea if the players you game with feel a need for a change.

[Dog_O_War]

What are you going to do about out-of-scope weapons, like the NG-Hunter Mobile Guns' main cannon? That thing can fit a human head in it, yet a burst of like 20 rounds does less than the Glitterboys' boomgun?

That aside, what is the draw to play anything other than a Glitterboy?

These questions aside, I really like this idea. It's something I've wanted to do as well, using multiple characters per PC to simulate 'bot and tank-crews. And to even-up the power-creep, allow otherwise singular PA-pilot players levels equal to the most-crewed PC vehicle (likely a tank). Also allow vehicles crewed by less to have advanced levels as well; like a 2nd level pilot and a 1st level co-pilot in a two-man 'bot, where as a tank-crew would have 3 1st level characters in it (commander, driver, gunner/loader).

Infact, to expand on this idea - maybe devising a personal list of "these things are reasonably equal in power-scale" would be handy. And when things aren't to scale, the difference can be made up in experience and gear. An example would be like a Hunter Mobile-Gun crew (2nd level pilot, 1st level co-pilot) being played with stock gear and load-out, while a PA-pilot using a Deaths' Head SAMAS might instead be 4th level and have an operator boost his SAMAS's MDC and capabilities.

Just little things like that to better personalize it seems cool.

[Lord Z]

Since the concept of the campaign is all about robot pilots, I wouldn't start it in Rifts. I would start it in a mecha-oriented setting like Robotech or Mechanoids or even Splicers. My suggestion is the Macross II RPG which has very good mega-damage and MDC levels, solving most of Dog-o-War's problems immediately. As a setting, it also has the industrial base to provide these robots or power armors and replace them when needed.

Think about it. We all love Giant Robots. They are tremendous fun when played in a game (either table top or video game) which allows them to fight in their own scale, stomping on cars and kicking over trees. Even that giant robot coolness is ruined when one cocky, low level Mystic who happens to know the spell Invulnerable to Energy negates most of your firepower, unbalances the campaign, and possibly ruins the fun for the remainder of the game.

[Khanibal]

What are you going to do about out-of-scope weapons, like the NG-Hunter Mobile Guns' main cannon? That thing can fit a human head in it, yet a burst of like 20 rounds does less than the Glitterboys' boomgun?

That aside, what is the draw to play anything other than a Glitterboy?

Personally I perfer the V-SAM. Those blade-wings rock. If you're talking about anything-goes gear, the Silverhawk (Phase World) whips the GB.
I'd still take the V-SAM though.

[Dog_O_War]

What are you going to do about out-of-scope weapons, like the NG-Hunter Mobile Guns' main cannon? That thing can fit a human head in it, yet a burst of like 20 rounds does less than the Glitterboys' boomgun?

That aside, what is the draw to play anything other than a Glitterboy?

Personally I perfer the V-SAM. Those blade-wings rock. If you're talking about anything-goes gear, the Silverhawk (Phase World) whips the GB.
I'd still take the V-SAM though.

Not really the point I was making. You can't expect a V-SAM to duke it out with an IAR-1 and survive.

You can expect that from a Glitterboy though.

[Khanibal]

Well, the GB is supposed to be the pinacle of pre-cataclysm tech. The superior armor and the high damage boom gun make it easily the equal or superior to other wpns manufactured since then.
"What about the SAMAS? It's pre-C tech."
Well, you can have a highly armored, heavily armed low manuverability vehicle that has to anchor itself to the ground to fire it's only weapon, or you can have a moderately armored, lightly armed vehicle that can can fly, manuver, and possibly dodge, but you can't have the good aspects of both (unless you fly the Silverhawk [only 1.2M credits or 800K for a knock-off]).
"Dagnabbit, all my PA PC's are going to want to be GB pilots."
Okay, let them. Unless they stay within hollering distance of a major supply town, the chance of them finding a replacement knee actuator or spare ammunition, or a replacement leg piton (GB fires and starts spinning like a top whu-whu-whu-whu. Pilot: "BLURP!") are small. Even in a remote farming community you probably still have a chance of finding a replacement part for the NG-Hunter. (Unless you're IN the PW dimension, you have NO chance of finding the super-advanced replacement parts for the Silverhawk [Try out our "Lease to Own" program!]).
Anyway, that's as close to a reasonable explanation I can come up with as to why the GB outstrips other vehicles, and how I try to balance it out.
BUT, my point was that I'd rather fly a V-SAM and love it, than a drive a GB and hate it. That's why people would choose something else. Hey! since the GB reflects lasers so well, shouldn't a laser target designator give an additional +1 or +2 to hit?
Yes, in real life a tank should be able to fire a cluster shot and blow a GB through the air, the shockwave knocking out the pilot. This is not real life.

[Come on down to Crazy Jake's Destruction Emporium and we'll make you a deal on a brand new Silverhawk or one of our many fine Chipwell suits today!]

[Dog_O_War]

"Dagnabbit, all my PA PC's are going to want to be GB pilots."
Okay, let them. Unless they stay within hollering distance of a major supply town, the chance of them finding a replacement knee actuator or spare ammunition, or a replacement leg piton (GB fires and starts spinning like a top whu-whu-whu-whu. Pilot: "BLURP!") are small.

The Glitterboy carries 1000 rounds for its single-shot gun though. It's not likely that they're going to run out of ammo any time soon.
Additionally, forcing players to look for specific replacement parts to repair their vehicles, and then stippulating that Glitterboy parts are especially hard to find is unneccessarily biased and lacks a sense of fairness.
Beyond this, the Operator OCC (common everywhere) still has the ability to repair them regardless of available parts.

[Khanibal]

The Glitterboy carries 1000 rounds for its single-shot gun though. It's not likely that they're going to run out of ammo any time soon.
Additionally, forcing players to look for specific replacement parts to repair their vehicles, and then stippulating that Glitterboy parts are especially hard to find is unneccessarily biased and lacks a sense of fairness.
Beyond this, the Operator OCC (common everywhere) still has the ability to repair them regardless of available parts.

Dude, if you read the book it specifically states that GB's are rare. Consequently the spare parts are equally rare. Considerably less rare now that FQ and Triax are producing them like mad. Operatore cannot simply MAKE a part appear. The can, however, machine one if they have access to the proper equipment. The most difficult thing to replace is the armor. Several times the difficulty and expense of producing the reflect armor has been stated in the books. Pg. 36-38 of SB1 Revised detail replacement and repair costs for robots and PA. I use the 200% more for GB armor.

That being said, if I blow the leg off a GB forcing him to hunt up some spare parts, I do it as a story element, not as a punishment. A cool subplot is the GB has a tricky actuator. The pilot is constantly searching for a replacement for it. When he finally does find one, he runs into some FQ agents a session or two later trying to track a stolen shipment.

Finally, here's some homework for you: Call the nearest Lamborghini dealer and ask how much to replace the transmission on a 2009 Gallardo LP 560-4 Spyder, then call a Ford dealer and ask how much to replace the transmission on a 2009 Lincoln Town Car.

The rarity of the GB and expense and difficulty of repairs are part of the game balance.

[Dog_O_War]

The Glitterboy carries 1000 rounds for its single-shot gun though. It's not likely that they're going to run out of ammo any time soon.
Additionally, forcing players to look for specific replacement parts to repair their vehicles, and then stippulating that Glitterboy parts are especially hard to find is unneccessarily biased and lacks a sense of fairness.
Beyond this, the Operator OCC (common everywhere) still has the ability to repair them regardless of available parts.

Dude, if you read the book it specifically states that GB's are rare. Consequently the spare parts are equally rare. Considerably less rare now that FQ and Triax are producing them like mad. Operatore cannot simply MAKE a part appear. The can, however, machine one if they have access to the proper equipment. The most difficult thing to replace is the armor. Several times the difficulty and expense of producing the reflect armor has been stated in the books. Pg. 36-38 of SB1 Revised detail replacement and repair costs for robots and PA. I use the 200% more for GB armor.

That being said, if I blow the leg off a GB forcing him to hunt up some spare parts, I do it as a story element, not as a punishment. A cool subplot is the GB has a tricky actuator. The pilot is constantly searching for a replacement for it. When he finally does find one, he runs into some FQ agents a session or two later trying to track a stolen shipment.

Finally, here's some homework for you: Call the nearest Lamborghini dealer and ask how much to replace the transmission on a 2009 Gallardo LP 560-4 Spyder, then call a Ford dealer and ask how much to replace the transmission on a 2009 Lincoln Town Car.

The rarity of the GB and expense and difficulty of repairs are part of the game balance.

This misses the point of how powerful a Glitterboy is though. Game-balance would dictate that a SAMAS is likely going to take atleast 3 times as much damage as a Glitterboy, due to its lack of laser-resistance, weapon-range, and weapon-accuracy.

Basically what you make up for in availability you lose in the commonality of needing those replacement parts. Where a Glitterboy will likely visit ten towns before actually needing repairs, it's likely a SAMAS pilot will need repairs at every town.

So what this boils down to is that they're spending the same amount on repairs (one pays for quality, the other is paying for quantity), except that one PA is still a Glitterboy, while the other is just a SAMAS.

Don't get me wrong; I love the SAMAS, but availability of parts isn't really something I'd view as an advantage. To look at it another way; why are SAMAS parts more common than Glitterboy parts? Likely because when the two collide, only parts of the SAMAS can be found while the Glitterboy remains intact.

My point make more sense?

[Khanibal]

Wait, wait, wait. We were discussing why the GB is so much more advanced than more current technologies. I was reminding people that the pre-cat tech was more advanced then current tech, and the best of the old tech was the GB. That's why it is preforms so well when compared to current 'bots and tanks. It may not be a perfect explanation, but it's the best I can do by interpolating the data.
As far as parts go, I figure 70% of any item's MDC is armor. (From the old rule in Robotech that any damage over 2/3 would damage systems. x.7 is just easier to calculate.) Damage exceeding that requires a more serious investment in repairs. I don't make anybody hunt for parts unless it's either the early stages of the game, and the GB pilot needs to learn that he is not the invincible lead character in a story with the other pc's as backup roles, or as a plot device.

The SAMAS doesn't take 3x the damage a GB does, the GB can survive 3x the damage a SAMAS can, there's a difference. According to the book, 2 SAMAS can take a GB something like 57$ of the time, but one is destroyed, and the other is crippled. It would be interesting to get a couple of friends together and run through 100 combats to see how accurate that is.

[Dog_O_War]

Wait, wait, wait. We were discussing why the GB is so much more advanced than more current technologies. I was reminding people that the pre-cat tech was more advanced then current tech, and the best of the old tech was the GB. That's why it is preforms so well when compared to current 'bots and tanks. It may not be a perfect explanation, but it's the best I can do by interpolating the data.
As far as parts go, I figure 70% of any item's MDC is armor. (From the old rule in Robotech that any damage over 2/3 would damage systems. x.7 is just easier to calculate.) Damage exceeding that requires a more serious investment in repairs. I don't make anybody hunt for parts unless it's either the early stages of the game, and the GB pilot needs to learn that he is not the invincible lead character in a story with the other pc's as backup roles, or as a plot device.

The SAMAS doesn't take 3x the damage a GB does, the GB can survive 3x the damage a SAMAS can, there's a difference. According to the book, 2 SAMAS can take a GB something like 57$ of the time, but one is destroyed, and the other is crippled. It would be interesting to get a couple of friends together and run through 100 combats to see how accurate that is.

That's the thing though; what the book says and what the game dictates often differ greatly. The books' fluff (for instance) says that the Glitterboy Killer uses its mini-missiles to target and destroy the boomgun of a Glitterboy, but the rules say that missiles can't target locations.

Similarily, while the fluff of the book says that two SAMAS with some enginuity can take a Glitterboy, the cold-hard reality of an in-game showdown will result in two dead SAMAS pilots and one moderately damaged Glitterboy.

Or to add to the absurdity, a single Glitterboy is more than a match for a Deaths' Head transport.

While I understand your point on the rarity of parts, that doesn't undermine the fact that one PA will need them much more often than the other.

I do think you should run a test-combat with some friends though, to get a good sampling, and to see what I'm saying.
I tend to just look at the math for a more time-friendly explanation.

Spoiler:

Glitterboy has X attacks, does Y damage, and has Z MDC.
SAMAS has A attacks, does B damage, and has C MDC.
X = 7
Y = 105 (avg. of 3d6x10)
Z = 770
A = 6
B = 25 (avg. of 1d4x10)
C = 250

Glitterboy has more than 3 times the MDC, does more than 4 times the damage, and has 1/6th more attacks per melee than the SAMAS.

Factoring in movement, the Glitterboy needs atleast 15 to hit a fast-moving SAMAS (+6 speed, +1 evasive action; base TN: 8 ) and has a +4 to strike at first level (+2 Glitterboy robot combat: elite, +2 advanced laser-targeting), making his to-hit chances 50% (needs 11+ on a d20)

Factoring in movement, the SAMAS needs 14 to hit as it is considered to be shooting wild (-6 movement/evading; base TN: 8 ) and has a +3 to strike at first level (+2 robot combat: elite, +1 laser-targeting system), making his chances to hit 50% as well (needs 11+ on a d20).

So while they have the exact-same hit percentage, one is doing 4 times as much damage, has an additional attack per round, and has 3 times the MDC of his opponent.

And this is before factoring in the respective ranges of these PAs' weapons. It's from this point that I draw my conclusions;
7 hits per 30 seconds deals SAMAS 735 MD; this is nearly 3 times the MDC of a single SAMAS. Going off of the MDC needed to survive 2 rounds of combat with a Glitterboy, I use three SAMAS.
3 SAMAS hit 18 times in 30 seconds dealing only 450 MD to the Glitterboy. This is assuming that the Glitterboy did not eliminate a single SAMAS before they were allowed to use all their attacks.
Adding in a 4th SAMAS allows for another 6 hits in 30 seconds, dealing an additional 150 MD to the Glitterboy; still 170 MD short of being able to eliminate the Glitterboy.

You can now see why I bring this point up; 3 times the damage taken was actually being generous to the SAMAS pilot - it's closer to 5 times as much. All without factoring in the possibility of weapon-ranges (the boomgun has more than double that of nearly every other weapon in the game).

[Khanibal]

Straight math? Okay. The average of 1D20 is 10.5. This gives the GB a consistent 12.5 strike roll (at first level), and the SAMAS 15.5 to dodge (at first level) while flying (and if you're in a SAMAS you should be flying). This means they can split to flank and approach the GB and dodge all his fire while closing to effective range (mathematically). The two SAMAS can then fly circles around the GB and pick it apart. The SAMAS who gets shot at dodges, leaving the other SAMAS to fire away.

In a game, this would never work, but if you were willing to sacrifice one SAMAS and nearly trash the other one, I can see them taking down a GB about half the time.

Mini-missiles are unguided, and therefore fall under the W.P. Heavy M.D. Weapons. This means you get to put them where you want them. (Assuming you can make the roll.)

[Dog_O_War]

Straight math? Okay. The average of 1D20 is 10.5. This gives the GB a consistent 12.5 strike roll (at first level), and the SAMAS 15.5 to dodge (at first level) while flying (and if you're in a SAMAS you should be flying). This means they can split to flank and approach the GB and dodge all his fire while closing to effective range (mathematically). The two SAMAS can then fly circles around the GB and pick it apart. The SAMAS who gets shot at dodges, leaving the other SAMAS to fire away.

That's what the fluff would lead you to believe, but as I said before, this often doesn't reflect the reality of the game.

In a game, this would never work, but if you were willing to sacrifice one SAMAS and nearly trash the other one, I can see them taking down a GB about half the time.

Without getting too into it, there are various means of disallowing dodge-rolls which the GB would take full advantage of.

Mini-missiles are unguided, and therefore fall under the W.P. Heavy M.D. Weapons. This means you get to put them where you want them. (Assuming you can make the roll.)

I agree that it is how it should work, but the missile-rules were not written by a person with specifics in-mind. As a missile - even though it's proceeded by "mini", it still falls under the missile-rules, regardless of how it was shot or where the bonuses to shoot it came from.

Basically if you play the game as it is written in the books, you're always going to be at an unwinnible position when engaging a Glitterboy.
I've begun a personal project to re-write the entire rules, and have gotten pretty far in this endevor.

[Khanibal]

More math: The GB needs to connect twice (on average) against each SAMAS, while the SAMAS need to connect 7 times to disable the boomgun. It's still a toss-up whether the GB manages to kill both Sam's before he's disabled.
The only way I know to forbid a dodge is to launch 4+ missiles as a target. You can rule anyway you like on the mini-missiles. I prefer to let them be called.

[Dog_O_War]

More math: The GB needs to connect twice (on average) against each SAMAS, while the SAMAS need to connect 7 times to disable the boomgun. It's still a toss-up whether the GB manages to kill both Sam's before he's disabled.
The only way I know to forbid a dodge is to launch 4+ missiles as a target. You can rule anyway you like on the mini-missiles. I prefer to let them be called.

Simultaineous strikes don't allow for a dodge-chance; so if they shoot at the Glitterboy he gets an immediate shot at them, and they can't dodge.

I also allow mini-missiles to be called when I run Rifts.

[Khanibal]

Good point on the simo, but you can only simo one attack at a time. Still it only takes 4 attacks to cripple the 2 Sams. Six to destroy them.
Assume that half of the SAMAS attacks miss due to the called shot, but the GB misses when they can dodge.
Let's see, two SAMAS cruising at 150 mph. gets a hit on radar. Reflect armor is great for shrugging off laser fire, but sucks at stealth. If the pilots have 5 actions each, they cover 660' each action. It will take 9 actions (approx.) from entering the max. range of the boomgun until they are within missile range, dodging all the way. They both pop 2 m-missiles for 70 avg. damage each, but one misses. The GB simo strikes dealing 105 to SAMAS 1. Another round of dodging for the SAMAS (first action of round 3) before they're in range of their rail guns.

Round 3, action 2: Both SAMAS attack with their railguns for 25 damage eacj, again one misses. The damage to the boomgun is now 95 out of the 175. GB counter-attacks SAMAS 1 again for another 105-total 210 out of 250. SAMAS 1 starts smoking heavily.

Round 3, action 3: SAMAS 2 misses, and SAMAS 1 misses due to malfunctioning targeting system. GB counter-attacks SAMAS 1 and kills it.

Round 3, action 4 SAMAS 2 hits boomgun has now taken 120 of 175, GB counter-attacks for 105.

Round 3, action 5 SAMAS misses, GB attacks for another 105, total: 210 of 250.

Round 4, action 1 SAMAS (grounded from thruster damage) hits boomgun for another 25 total is 145 of 175. GB misses (damage effecting accuracy)

Round 5, action 6 SAMAS misses, GB kills SAMAS two.

Completely unscientific, but a fair approxiamtion.

but...

[Khanibal]

2 SAMAS notice GB, kick speed up to max to investigate.
Round 1, action 1: SAMAS enter GB's range. GB attacks, surprised and po'd SAMAS dodge and kick speed up to max, while radioing local C.S. commander with coords and help request.

Round 2, action 1: SAMAS fire 2 missiles each doing 70 to boomgun. GB counter-attacks doing 105 to SAMAS 1.

Round 2, action 2: SAMAS dodge while closing.

Round 2, action 3: SAMAS hold fire to close with target.

Round 3, action 1: SAMAS 1 grapples boomgun while Samas 2 rams GB's legs

Battle turns into brawl where boomgun is eventually wrenched off, but SAMAS 1 is punched to pieces. SAMAS 2 grabs SAMAS 1 pilot and flys off.

Two GB-Killers find battle site and track GB to nearby adventuring group. They summon S&D company to deal with d-bee loving scum.

Mixyxl the Sin Eater, (supernatural Intelligence) lurks over the battle field in the nearby Astral Plane and basks in the violence.

[Dog_O_War]

You're forgetting a couple of things here though;

Bursts cannot be used to make called shots.

The first long-range attack made in a round is undodgeable before the SAMAS can make visual confirmation (within 6000ft as the optics of the suit dictate).

Grappling is still an attack, and thus can be simultaineously attacked (likely killing the SAMAS that attempts to grapple).

The Gltterboy could be making called shots with his first long-range (and thus undodgeable) attack; over two rounds this can easily prevent a single SAMAS from reaching him. This pits him an the other SAMAS alone in hand-to-hand combat.

Missiles fired at a Glitterboys' boomgun can still be deflected via a block/sacrifice action. And they can be shot down (though not likely).

Even in hand-to-hand combat a Glitterboy can go shot-for-shot with 2 SAMAS and still come out the victor.

[Khanibal]

How is GB's first attack non-dodgeable? They "see" each other on instruments well before they are within either suits range. The SAMAS aren't flying over to see if the GB will swap a piece of fruit for a brownie. (SAMAS 2's wife loves to bake, but he's trying to lose a couple of pounds), They anticipate the possibility of hostile action. No surprise round.

[Dog_O_War]

How is GB's first attack non-dodgeable? They "see" each other on instruments well before they are within either suits range. The SAMAS aren't flying over to see if the GB will swap a piece of fruit for a brownie. (SAMAS 2's wife loves to bake, but he's trying to lose a couple of pounds), They anticipate the possibility of hostile action. No surprise round.

While radar will alert the SAMAS that the Glitterboy is there, it does not tell them who he will shoot at next, if he's shooting at them, when he'll shoot, etc... All that must be confirmed visually (ie: "sight"). Certain other sight-aids are often used, like night-vision for might-time veiwing, or thermo-graphic, etc...

Basically while radar will even reveal the prescence of an invisible object, said invisible object still gets the invisible bonuses for attacking and being attacked simply because you cannot physically see that object. This would also then extend to all sight-based attacks.

That said, 6000ft is pretty far to affirm visual sight-range; better than having an unaided eye.

Also, it is only the first attack in that round (and subsequient rounds), which I attribute to the initiative system. Each new round will have a different initiative, bringing about the uncertainty of when that first attack will fly-in. They still get a dodge versus the 5-6 other attacks in that round - which I'll point out that they can only dodge a maximum of 6 attacks in a round anyways.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Not that I intend to get caught up in this math game, but I'll just throw in a few points to make sure they're included. I'm not sure if they've been factored in yet or not (since we're going by rules and numbers). These are all taken from R:UE.

1) Ranged Attacks require an 8 or higher to strike.

2) Firing at a moving target suffers penalties. In the case of a SAMAS it's -3 at cruising speeds and -6 for max speed (-4/-7 if also taking evasive actions). If the Glitterboy runs top speed and takes evasive actions it's -2 to hit.

3) Shooting Wild, I'm not sure if this one applies, but it does mention if shooting while running, firing from a moving vehicle, leaping, dodging, etc. But I'm thinking it does, which is another -6 (unless one side is making itself a stationary, easy to hit target).

4) As long as both sides keep to ranged attacks, the penalties to dodge won't factor in (as those need to be within 50 feet or less).

5) I had thought about trying to get into Simultaneous Attacks, but that could be a problem so I'm just going to leave that part off for now and just give it the benefit of the doubt.

Considering the SAMAS is aware and trying to avoid being hit (max speed plus evasive maneuvers) the Glitterboy will need to roll (with bonuses) a 15* or higher to hit (even for a Simultaneous attack), and if the Glitterboy is trying to avoid being hit it'll require a 21* or higher to hit.

The SAMAS will need a 14* to strike if the Glitterboy is stationary (favoring accuracy) or a 16* to strike if the Glitterboy is going top speed and taking evasive actions (favoring avoiding being hit). Note: I'm giving the SAMAS the benefit of the doubt they're not standing still (as speed is one of their main advantages here).

* - Numbers are adding in the penalties. The numbers listed would only be an 8 to strike for purposes of rolling a dodge.

6) If either side tries to aim, that is a +2 to strike, but counts as two attacks. Called shots are also at penalty. Aimed Strikes can't really be used for Simultaneous Attacks either (as it aiming requires two attacks, and simultaneous attack is only one).

Anyways, that's really all for now. Again, I'm not intending to get caught up in this debate, merely thought to point out a few other factors for this battle. Without decent bonuses and/or luck with the dice, there are going to be a lot of misses involved. I'll also note I'm not really a Rifts player, so if there are specifics I'm missing feel free to factor those in (I'm just listing general information). For simplicity, I only included the numbers (and not various tactics). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Khanibal]

Interesting. I believe it would definitely take severl play-outs to determine if the designer's estimate is accurate or not.

One thing though. Whenever the GB fires it is literally nailed to the ground.

[Khanibal]

On the other hand, if we take a price comparable vehicle, like the Iron Bolt, and rerun the same combat the GB loses.

[Dog_O_War]

On the other hand, if we take a price comparable vehicle, like the Iron Bolt, and rerun the same combat the GB loses.

That's only because actual tanks are better than powered armour, robot vehicles, etc...

Pound for pound (or in this case, price) tanks are still thee most effective weapon going. Price-wise you could afford 3 Iron Hammer MBTs with a full missile-load and 9 guys to run them (going off of basic merc prices detailed under salary in Rifts Mercenaries, you could pay them outrageous salaries of 4000 creds each per week for a full year) and still afford yourself an Iron Eagle attack-chopper with a nice little winfall of a couple million creds for unforseen expenses.

At that point the only real advantage of the Glitterboy is that it's relatively small and as mobile as a human is. Not an advantage though when you're trying to slug it out with three tanks and an attack-chopper.

[Khanibal]

Yeah, missiles really level the field. Some of the Triax suits use a variety of missiles. You wouldn't need med/long range ones. The short range missiles have 3-5 mile range. Yes, the NG Hunter is effectiveness challenged compared to the GB, but the GB can be killed by several other vehicles out there. The fact of the matter is that relying on one weapon system is dangerous. A kingdom with an all GB force would soon see it's enemies deploying mobile missile batteries (tracked/hover even helo). This is why FQ has developed a couple of pa suits to assist the GB.
As far as pa goes, I think the most dangerous is the Silverhawk from Phase World. If I were going to run a pa charactor though, I would take the V-SAMAS. I just love the way it looks, and the flyby attack is very enticing.