The Faulty of Heroic Sacrifice Rewards.

[johnkretzer]

I have seen this situration too many times to count. It is when a player is called upon to sacrifice their character for the greater good then is brought back to life and often rewarded(often for 'good role-playing')...completely negating the sacrifice. Now if this happened once in a blue moon it would be ok...but the fact that happens sooo much it cheapens the act.

I am wondering if others has noticed this? How they deal with it? If they see a problem? Is it just my gaming group?

[Warwolf]

I have seen this situration too many times to count. It is when a player is called upon to sacrifice their character for the greater good then is brought back to life and often rewarded(often for 'good role-playing')...completely negating the sacrifice. Now if this happened once in a blue moon it would be ok...but the fact that happens sooo much it cheapens the act.

I am wondering if others has noticed this? How they deal with it? If they see a problem? Is it just my gaming group?

I've never seen it happen in my 15 years of gaming. Not once.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Never happened here. The one time in a Longgoing Rifts game a Character chose to make a heroic sacrafise...there was no body left.

[Misfit KotLD]

Never happened here. The one time in a Longgoing Rifts game a Character chose to make a heroic sacrafise...there was no body left.

Yep.

[johnkretzer]

Had it happen to one of my characters in DnD once (3.5). Paladin sacrificed himself so that the party could get through a particular trap, which incidentally he had accidentally triggered. After the group made it through the area, I attempted to exit myself, only to be sliced to little bits by scything blades from the wall.

I was prepared to roll up a new character, had dice in hand and pencil on paper, but the group collected the remains and pooled their money to buy the ressurection.

Does that count?


I agree with the cheapness of using it as a plot device only to weasel out of it. Pissed me off about Chronicles of Narnia. Aslan intentionally went to "sacrifice" himself at the table, knowing full well that not only would the table be broken, but he would be brought back to life because of the particular magic behind said table. There was no sacrifice involved there at all. He knew he would be back, right as rain, the next day. Lame-o!

Not so much your exqample...as the PCs did it within the rules.

Morter like you example from Chronicles of Narnia. Though that doesn't **** me off if it doesn't happen every time. I just see a problem where it becomes expected.

[Cinos]

I don't see it ever happening in any of my games, then again, few players of mine would do a heroic sacrifice. In other genras I see it enough to be annoying.

[Scott Gibbons]

I've done it once - repeat ONCE - in my almost 20 years of GMing, but there were very unusual circumstances. Half of my Rifts group cancelled at the last moment, leaving me with only 4 players. The adventure I had planned for the evening needed the full party if anyone was going to survive, so I had to improvise an adventure on the fly without much time to consider power-level. Long story short, one character (dragon hatchling) ended up using his own body as a sheild to provide cover for a large group of orphan from a bunch of Worm Wraiths. The player chose to keep his dragon there, unable to retaliate, as he watched his MDC run down to zero (and the player was only 13 years old, but sucked it up with more maturity than a lot of adults I've played with). Anyway, the rest of the party was able to take out the bandits thanks to the heroics of that player and save the day.

Once the battle was over I took off my GM hat and talked with the players, explaining to them my thoughts and feelings about the session (they all knew that I'd put the game together with zero prep). I told them that I felt that the character's death was my fault, and that if it was okay with them, I would arrange a one time resurrection unless the player wanted to make up a new character with bonus XP to start. The suggestion met with cheers from the other 3 players, and the dragon player, after some consideration, decided that he would like to go ahead and have his dragon back. So I had the cleric of the group (who's player wasn't there that night) come and pray to his god, who was so impressed by the bravery of the dragon that he ressurected him. A couple of my players actually got a little misty-eyed about it all.

That was the one and only time I've ever allowed a dead character to be brought back to life through GM intervention. I've seen a lot of characters die over the years, some nobly, most by stupidity. But that dragon was the cream of the crop, and my players still talk about him even now, years later.

[Noon]

I have seen this situration too many times to count. It is when a player is called upon to sacrifice their character for the greater good then is brought back to life and often rewarded(often for 'good role-playing')...completely negating the sacrifice. Now if this happened once in a blue moon it would be ok...but the fact that happens sooo much it cheapens the act.

The player knows they are going to have their PC ressurected.

The CHARACTER does not. For all they know, they are dead.

And if your saying the player doesn't play their character, just uses him like a pawn in chess, then you don't have a problem with heroic sacrifice. You have a problem with it being applied to pawn PC's.

If you expect players to sacrifice something for it to be meaningful, your going a bit 'steam tunnels' to me. Real life sacrifice for a boardgame....it's really steam tunnels!

[johnkretzer]

The player knows they are going to have their PC ressurected.

The CHARACTER does not. For all they know, they are dead.

And if your saying the player doesn't play their character, just uses him like a pawn in chess, then you don't have a problem with heroic sacrifice. You have a problem with it being applied to pawn PC's.

If you expect players to sacrifice something for it to be meaningful, your going a bit 'steam tunnels' to me. Real life sacrifice for a boardgame....it's really steam tunnels!

1) No this is a issue of metagaming.

2) If the PC chooses to sacrfice his Character then all I am saying is that sometimes he actualy does sacifice his character. I am not expecting people to actualy cut of a limb every time they loose a character...I don't get how you even got that from what I wrote.

3) Role-Playing game are NOT a board game. I am surprised I have to say this on a RPG message board but...In a Role-Playing game you assume the ROLE of a character...The issue stems the fact that players take a action they know out of game will result in being brought back to life w/ a bonus ability in which their character does not know thing...and probably would not take that action. It is metagaming.

4) The 'steam tunnel' incident was merely the first poorly thought out Live Action Role Playing idea. As I have played LARP games in the past I can say it is great fun(well most of the time). So now you calling me crazy because of this? Also the only actualy 'crazy' thing to happen was that some people got lost....as people get lost camping or deep sea fishing are those also crazy?

[Noon]

2) If the PC chooses to sacrfice his Character then all I am saying is that sometimes he actualy does sacifice his character. I am not expecting people to actualy cut of a limb every time they loose a character...I don't get how you even got that from what I wrote.

You want them to have made a sacrifice of their character, and you don't get why I've read it that you want sacrifice from them?

3) Role-Playing game are NOT a board game. I am surprised I have to say this on a RPG message board but...In a Role-Playing game you assume the ROLE of a character...The issue stems the fact that players take a action they know out of game will result in being brought back to life w/ a bonus ability in which their character does not know thing...and probably would not take that action. It is metagaming.

Some people don't play an RPG with playing a role in mind - I know, shock horror. Your trying to call a different type of playing cheating (well, call it metagaming, which I'm assuming your using in a derogitory way). No, it's just how some people play and it doesn't match your way. You don't like the same thing.

[johnkretzer]

2) If the PC chooses to sacrfice his Character then all I am saying is that sometimes he actualy does sacifice his character. I am not expecting people to actualy cut of a limb every time they loose a character...I don't get how you even got that from what I wrote.

You want them to have made a sacrifice of their character, and you don't get why I've read it that you want sacrifice from them?

3) Role-Playing game are NOT a board game. I am surprised I have to say this on a RPG message board but...In a Role-Playing game you assume the ROLE of a character...The issue stems the fact that players take a action they know out of game will result in being brought back to life w/ a bonus ability in which their character does not know thing...and probably would not take that action. It is metagaming.

Some people don't play an RPG with playing a role in mind - I know, shock horror. Your trying to call a different type of playing cheating (well, call it metagaming, which I'm assuming your using in a derogitory way). No, it's just how some people play and it doesn't match your way. You don't like the same thing.

I was going to reply to this but I think it would be simpler just agree to disagree. You don't get my point at all and quite frankly reading your blog and your webcomic I doubt you ever will. So I will just agree to disagree and bid you a good day.

[Noon]

If your point is wrong it'd make sense for someone to not get it. And I don't agree to disagree - no conclusion happened here - this subject is still trailing in the wind and you've left it like that.

[johnkretzer]

If your point is wrong it'd make sense for someone to not get it. And I don't agree to disagree - no conclusion happened here - this subject is still trailing in the wind and you've left it like that.

AS you said there are different many playing styles. Some then(incluing my group) consider metagaming wrong. So actualy my point is very correct from my prespective and gamers who hold similar views to metagaimng which this thread was directed at. Now if that is not your style of play...that is fine ...so why do you think you could contribute anything meaningful to this discussion?

The point is not wrong....it just has no bearing on how you play the game. Or are you saying that your way is the only way to play the game?

[Noon]

I don't think you were saying it from just your perspective and I added something constructive about that. But I'll leave it to others to decide for themselves if that was the case, as what someone meant is so easy to retroactively change it's not worth trying to prove one way or the other.

[johnkretzer]

I don't think you were saying it from just your perspective and I added something constructive about that. But I'll leave it to others to decide for themselves if that was the case, as what someone meant is so easy to retroactively change it's not worth trying to prove one way or the other.

Yeah whatever...
Actualy I'll say this about it your 'constructive' comment was highly insulting. And did not relate to the point. So I am just going to let this go and say have a good day. Agree to disagree.

[kamikazzijoe]

Self sacrifice aside, how are the resurrections coming constantly? Very few objects/classes have the ability to do that and usually have a low percentage attached. Slow that gravy train down and the sacrifices will mean something. I think in my 18 years of palladium only 2 characters have ever been resurrected...and one was an npc.

[jedi078]

I have seen this situation too many times to count. It is when a player is called upon to sacrifice their character for the greater good then is brought back to life and often rewarded(often for 'good role-playing')...completely negating the sacrifice. Now if this happened once in a blue moon it would be ok...but the fact that happens sooo much it cheapens the act.

I am wondering if others has noticed this? How they deal with it? If they see a problem? Is it just my gaming group?

If a player sacrifices his/her character for the greater that character is dead. No if ands or buts, there is no resurrection, there is no coming back to life. Your character is dead and it is time to roll up a new character. There should be none of this bringing that character back to life crap regardless of what the books say about resurrection.

If you want to reward a player for good role playing after sacrificing their character then hook their next character up with an extra level, or special equipment. Another thing I do is if a character dies (regardless of the circumstances) their exp rolls over to the next character made by that player. This would include the 1000 exp for sacrificing ones self.

[Shorty Lickens]

Ummm, whether I am the GM or the Player, I have never once seen or implemented any policy where a sacrifice was negated by things returning to status quo immediately afterwards.
Only once in Rifts have I seen a deliberate life sacrifice that was in character. And it was permanent. Dude rolled up a new PC the next session.
Plenty of times because of how the story or the action went, I've seen stuff go crazy and a character lost a limb or had to get transferred or possessed into a new body, or had the very least had an OCC change, but again they were always permanent, the effect lasted.
On more than one occasion I've had a Line Walker or someone similar run out of Armor of Ithan and get his arm blown away. He either has to just suck it up, or get a cybernetic arm and lose his powers. If he loses enough limbs he may even be forced to go Vagabond or Headhunter (with a minimum of new skills cuz obviously he didnt have time to learn them). Also seen plenty of headhunters find themselves turned into full borgs because of combat injuries.

And had a few Shifters take on new bodies because of death or some horrible experiment gone disgustingly wrong. Again, its permanent. And sometimes pretty damn awesome. Had a human male who could only find a deebee female to inhabit. It happens.

And on a similar note, we've had plenty of sessions where a characters body or soul was stolen or maladjusted and had to be retrieved or restored. Sometimes things worked out and it was all back to normal. Sometimes things were permanently changed and that was just life.