Wards activated by touch?

[Crazy Lou]

So diabolists are immune to their own wards and won't set their own wards off. If a diabolist sets a ward on an object he doesn't want stolen, like an agony ward or something, when someone touches it other than him, it'll inflict them with agony unless they save vs magic. Right?

So could a diabolist put a dozen or two fire & agony wards on a staff or something, and then hit an enemy with it to set off all the wards at once on him? So he gets his with a dozen+ wards at a time (and a HUGE amount of damage?) Wards can be as small as an inch, so you could fit that many onto a typical staff without much trouble.

It'd be a one use thing before you had to put all those wards on and activate them again, but that's one heck of a single use item.

[Khanibal]

I'd allow one spell per item. Even then, it's may violate the spirit of the ward. I'm not familiar with the diabolist class, but I do know the "Ward" spell in Rifts requires that the item be clearly marked.

[The Beast]

So diabolists are immune to their own wards and won't set their own wards off. If a diabolist sets a ward on an object he doesn't want stolen, like an agony ward or something, when someone touches it other than him, it'll inflict them with agony unless they save vs magic. Right?

So could a diabolist put a dozen or two fire & agony wards on a staff or something, and then hit an enemy with it to set off all the wards at once on him? So he gets his with a dozen+ wards at a time (and a HUGE amount of damage?) Wards can be as small as an inch, so you could fit that many onto a typical staff without much trouble.

It'd be a one use thing before you had to put all those wards on and activate them again, but that's one heck of a single use item.

That should be correct.

[Prysus]

So diabolists are immune to their own wards and won't set their own wards off. If a diabolist sets a ward on an object he doesn't want stolen, like an agony ward or something, when someone touches it other than him, it'll inflict them with agony unless they save vs magic. Right?

So could a diabolist put a dozen or two fire & agony wards on a staff or something, and then hit an enemy with it to set off all the wards at once on him? So he gets his with a dozen+ wards at a time (and a HUGE amount of damage?) Wards can be as small as an inch, so you could fit that many onto a typical staff without much trouble.

It'd be a one use thing before you had to put all those wards on and activate them again, but that's one heck of a single use item.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, by the book, no. The book specifically states you cannot do it. It states it once on page 121 (under "Wards cannot be placed on weapons") and again on page 125 (under the limitations and reminders). Effectively, anything that moves around a lot cannot be warded (by the rules). It's stated that all the moving around, jostling, and bumping (even incidental things get bumped) would set the wards off. *Takes a deep breath.* Now here is where things get a bit more complicated. I'll try to break down my lines of thoughts, though I'll note I'm not a magic expert (I've run many games, though magic users have very rarely come up by my players).

1) Warded items cannot really be moved. Moving around will set them off. I believe somewhere in the section (though I can't find it) "touch" is defined as up to 6 ounces of pressure, which really isn't much at all. A halfway decent wind might set that off (though I can't find the reference to that so I could be wrong, but still fairly sure it's there or maybe I just heard it somewhere). Following this logic it is also why an arrow or grenade can't be used (air pressure, resistance, etc. would set it off before it ever reached the target, but again I can't find the reference so I could be wrong). Walking it will bump against a leg, a wall, an animal, etc., as well as moving around from general walking. It's stated this would set it off. Of course, short of an area affect, the only one close enough is probably the Diabolist (who is immune to its affects) so no real harm done. Alternately, it could potentially hit an innocent victim in which case you better hope no one knows it was you.

2) It also says it won't go off while a Diabolist is touching it. Okay, now we're going to get a bit more complicated. So as long as the Diabolist is making constant contact with it 100% of the time it will never go off. This makes all that text written in the book totally pointless if it's true (being immune is one thing, but if it never activates then it won't accidently go off in movement, would it?). But, let's take for now this is accurate. So our Diabolist can carry around this heavily warded staff and never worry about accidents (as long as he never leaves contact with it, which would be tricky, but I'll say he can be careful enough for arguments sake). Enemy comes, and he takes a swing, thwacking the enemy on the head. One little problem with that one. The Diabolist is STILL touching it. So no ward activation. Aww ...

Though, we're not done with this one yet. There are still more possibilities. First, seeing the enemy the Diabolist can throw the item at the opponent. Haha! Wait, no, that goes back to the problem listed in 1 where everything else triggers it and the Diabolist is no longer holding it to prevent it going off. Let's try again. Hmm ... I know, the Diabolist can activate the wards by touch. For simplicity, we'll say they're all linked to go off at the same time once a single one is triggered. Now we're getting somewhere! Thwack! Stop. Activate ward! Ha! Wait ... the guy didn't stand there and let the staff rest on his body while the Diabolist activated the wards. Yes, that's right, striking and activating wards would be 2 separate actions. Unfortunately, this makes it very hard to actually do both. The Diabolist can activate it and then strike, but if he did then it would go off BEFORE hitting. So the Diabolist using the weapon persoanlly doesn't make it much easier.

3) It might be possible with Permanence Wards, but that only makes things more complicated. If given to someone else, they're likely to have a lot of accidents with innocents (possibly himself if not added as exempt from it). If for the Diabolist, we still have the same problem as 2 above. If used as a thrown/projectile weapon by the Diabolist ... that might actually work. That's about the closest you can probably get to making this more successful (it would have to be a thrown/projectile weapon used by the Diabolist only).

All right, all done now. That should cover it. And, mind you, even 3 with the Permanence Ward is a house rule that ignores the repeated book statements saying it can't be done. It's the closest to being applicable that I can find though (at least by the rules). If you house rule wards more than that, then you'll have to turn to your house rules for the answers. Hope some of that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Crazy Lou]

So diabolists are immune to their own wards and won't set their own wards off. If a diabolist sets a ward on an object he doesn't want stolen, like an agony ward or something, when someone touches it other than him, it'll inflict them with agony unless they save vs magic. Right?

So could a diabolist put a dozen or two fire & agony wards on a staff or something, and then hit an enemy with it to set off all the wards at once on him? So he gets his with a dozen+ wards at a time (and a HUGE amount of damage?) Wards can be as small as an inch, so you could fit that many onto a typical staff without much trouble.

It'd be a one use thing before you had to put all those wards on and activate them again, but that's one heck of a single use item.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, by the book, no. The book specifically states you cannot do it. It states it once on page 121 (under "Wards cannot be placed on weapons") and again on page 125 (under the limitations and reminders). Effectively, anything that moves around a lot cannot be warded (by the rules). It's stated that all the moving around, jostling, and bumping (even incidental things get bumped) would set the wards off. *Takes a deep breath.* Now here is where things get a bit more complicated. I'll try to break down my lines of thoughts, though I'll note I'm not a magic expert (I've run many games, though magic users have very rarely come up by my players).

1) Warded items cannot really be moved. Moving around will set them off. I believe somewhere in the section (though I can't find it) "touch" is defined as up to 6 ounces of pressure, which really isn't much at all. A halfway decent wind might set that off (though I can't find the reference to that so I could be wrong, but still fairly sure it's there or maybe I just heard it somewhere). Following this logic it is also why an arrow or grenade can't be used (air pressure, resistance, etc. would set it off before it ever reached the target, but again I can't find the reference so I could be wrong). Walking it will bump against a leg, a wall, an animal, etc., as well as moving around from general walking. It's stated this would set it off. Of course, short of an area affect, the only one close enough is probably the Diabolist (who is immune to its affects) so no real harm done. Alternately, it could potentially hit an innocent victim in which case you better hope no one knows it was you.

2) It also says it won't go off while a Diabolist is touching it. Okay, now we're going to get a bit more complicated. So as long as the Diabolist is making constant contact with it 100% of the time it will never go off. This makes all that text written in the book totally pointless if it's true (being immune is one thing, but if it never activates then it won't accidently go off in movement, would it?). But, let's take for now this is accurate. So our Diabolist can carry around this heavily warded staff and never worry about accidents (as long as he never leaves contact with it, which would be tricky, but I'll say he can be careful enough for arguments sake). Enemy comes, and he takes a swing, thwacking the enemy on the head. One little problem with that one. The Diabolist is STILL touching it. So no ward activation. Aww ...

Though, we're not done with this one yet. There are still more possibilities. First, seeing the enemy the Diabolist can throw the item at the opponent. Haha! Wait, no, that goes back to the problem listed in 1 where everything else triggers it and the Diabolist is no longer holding it to prevent it going off. Let's try again. Hmm ... I know, the Diabolist can activate the wards by touch. For simplicity, we'll say they're all linked to go off at the same time once a single one is triggered. Now we're getting somewhere! Thwack! Stop. Activate ward! Ha! Wait ... the guy didn't stand there and let the staff rest on his body while the Diabolist activated the wards. Yes, that's right, striking and activating wards would be 2 separate actions. Unfortunately, this makes it very hard to actually do both. The Diabolist can activate it and then strike, but if he did then it would go off BEFORE hitting. So the Diabolist using the weapon persoanlly doesn't make it much easier.

3) It might be possible with Permanence Wards, but that only makes things more complicated. If given to someone else, they're likely to have a lot of accidents with innocents (possibly himself if not added as exempt from it). If for the Diabolist, we still have the same problem as 2 above. If used as a thrown/projectile weapon by the Diabolist ... that might actually work. That's about the closest you can probably get to making this more successful (it would have to be a thrown/projectile weapon used by the Diabolist only).

All right, all done now. That should cover it. And, mind you, even 3 with the Permanence Ward is a house rule that ignores the repeated book statements saying it can't be done. It's the closest to being applicable that I can find though (at least by the rules). If you house rule wards more than that, then you'll have to turn to your house rules for the answers. Hope some of that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

Thanks so much for that. I don't have a strong understanding of Diabolism since I only recently got the PFRPG and haven't read the section completely yet, just several parts of it. That was very helpful.

[Khanibal]

In 2nd edition D&D my clerics firetrapped their ceramic sling bullets.

[Khanibal]

Ah, but there is a difference between D&D magic, and Palladium magic.

[Crazy Lou]

I wouldn't allow it.

Magic doesn't care about loopholes. Part of crafting spells and wards is the practitioner's unwavering belief in the magic itself. For this reason it would not be possible to abuse magic in such a way, because the practitioner knows the true purpose of the spell, and knows intimately it's capabilities and limitations.

There is a correct tool for each job, and Magic does not allow you to use a butterknife when you should be using a screwdriver.

What about using spells creatively?

You can know exactly what the details and effects of a spell are, and then use those exact details and effects in a way that they might not have originally been intended. If you have unwavering belief that a spell will do EXACTLY something in the way it's described (ie EXACTLY how it's written in the rules), then you are already certain that if you tried something unusual with it, that it would still do those exact effects.

For instance, it sounds like from Prysus's description that a big issue for throwing a warded item would be the air pressure that's against it as it flies through the air (which incidentally probably wouldn't actually amount to 6+ ounces but whatever, and I say probably just because I don't want to do that math. However I'm very certain). So for instance if you were in space or a vacuum, the ward would not go off while the diabolist is touching it and using force & his own pressure to throw it, and then there would be no force or pressure on it once released until it hit the target (or hit something anyway). If as a diabolist you know that "touch" is 6 ounces of pressure from anything ** then you'd be certain that your tactic of throwing this warded object through space will work.

**which actually doesn't really make sense since then you also couldn't set many warded objects down since their own weight over a small area (for instance leaning a warded staff against a wall would still make it activate the instant it's released, even if it's completely motionless, which probably isn't the intent of the magic -- the idea was that you aren't supposed to move warded items, not that they can't ever be released by the diabolist. See my final note below for more)

Magic DOES care about loopholes. It works exactly the way it's supposed to. Anything that is so exact in its function cares about loopholes. If it ignored things just because it wasn't anticipated, then it's not exact. It just "sort of" works in a certain way. Magic isn't a "sort of" art. That's why you can't "sort of" do a ritual and not have it explode in your face. It has to be EXACT. Because of an exact definition, technicalities are relevant, and technicalities are the source of "loopholes."




A final note/observation: Note: this isn't an argument against anything above, it's just something I decided to work out.

Assuming that the definition of "touch" is six ounces of pressure, anything not touching the creating diabolist ought to immediately go off since there's WAY more pressure than that on pretty much ANY world that has an atmosphere at all. Particularly worlds of earth-like gravity or higher (where it's 15+ POUNDS per square inch). Of course, you could interpret it as 6 ounces of pressure over a smaller area... that'd be per 2.8mm^2. But that's so obnoxiously difficult to deal with that it's practically useless in game terms.

The math using that strange tiny-area interpretation: My hand is 9cm wide. A reasonably comfortable diameter for a staff could be said to be 1.5 inches. The surface area of a cylinder 9cm high and 1.5 inches in diameter is 2*pi*1.5*(9/2.54) = 33.39488 inches square. In mm that's 33.39488*25.4^2 = 21,545 mm square. Even assuming that my hand is only holding 10% of that surface area (it would be more than that, but I'm trying to be fair) the area being considered is 2154.5 mm square. That would mean that to be applying 6 ounces of pressure per 2.8 mm square would be (2154.5 mm^2/2.8mm^2)*6 oz*(1/32 oz/lb) = 144.275 lbs. That means that I'd have to be squeezing the staff with 144.275 total lbs of force or more to actually set it off by touching it. That would never happen, and it CERTAINLY would never protect the staff from being stolen unless the thief hit something with the staff. Plus, technically in such a case where the thief hit the staff on something/someone, that other object is actually the one which is in a force reaction and is the direct result of the pressure, so that target of the strike would be the one to take the ward effect! So not only is the interpretation of 6 oz per smaller area useless because it's too complicated to deal with, but it's also useless for the explanation of diabolism. In short, the 6 oz "touch" definition (regardless of area) is either useless or in some way or radically alters the whole of diabolism. I'd say it's just a bizarre definition that ought to be disregarded, but that's me.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Again, the 6oz I thought was in the book, but I could be wrong. I actually can't find the number, so it could just be a totally random number thrown out in a different conversation to make some point by someone and I just happen to remember it. The whole reason why throwing and air pressure couldn't work is probably a carry over from that conversation, or just my extrapolation of information from a number I don't even remember if it's there. I even said last time I wasn't completely sure on that part (I remember reading it somewhere, but not sure it was in a book).

I stated last time I'm not really an expert on wards, or magic in general. It's a topic that rarely comes up in my games (usually me as a GM using it, in which case I can be as creative as I want, so I don't even use the book half the time). Reading the section would be helpful, and it discusses why you can't ward things on page 121 and page 125 of the PF Main Book (mentioned this in my last post).

As an added note, I don't believe magic is that literal and that you can't be creative. Magic, in my opinion, had always been based on creativity. It's not about loopholes, but new uses someone else didn't think of before. Heck, that's why people do things like come up with new spells. I'm a firm believer in thinking outside the box. Though, by the same token, if it says you can't do something, then it can't be done. I also don't like breaking the heart of a rule, even if it's not in the letter. In this case, I wouldn't allow it except for possibly a permance ward, in which case if you managed to get your hands on the demon bone to make it, you probably deserve the edge. That's just me. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Crazy Lou]

Just to clarify, I know that the 6 oz thing is an uncertainty, and I am going to thoroughly read through the section when I get the time. I just wanted to say that if it was the actual rule, that it doesn't make sense.

And thanks again for the help Prysus.

[Cinos]

As per normal rules, no, you cannot use it, as Prysus has rather detailedly explain. One thing I have allowed as a more weaponized form of wards is pre made papers with wards affixed to them (or similar), which the player kept in a tome (Strung in, so the string could be quickly clipped). When trouble was a brewin', they'd take their choice wards out, and put them at strategic points (Ground at entrances, in front of fighters, doors, etc), and the other players would more or less throw their enemies into them, assuming they could not be lured into them. It took a great deal of effort, but was fairly effective use of the diabolist class.

As my home brew rules, I do allow wards of original posters plan, but there are more limitations (limited number of wards per item, and created at a time by a single character, and they require more specialized conditions, like on a parry only, or on a successful hit only, etc). Albit, different then intended canon class, still fun and creative.