New Edition of Rifts

[popscythe]

I DO NOT ENJOY RULES DEBATE WHEN I AM PLAYING A ROLEPLAYING GAME.

I don't allow rules debate in games that I run. And surprisingly, as all my players have read and understood the rules, we have very little rules debate. In my personal experience, rules debate comes from either a. having an incomplete understanding of the rules or b. purposeful twisting of the rules to try to change a ruling. Either of these instances are penalized in the games I run. I have gotten very good responses from my players so far. I started running games like this because of the exact behavior you describe and do not ENJOY happening in my 3.5 and Pathfinder campaigns for the last few years.

I insist that some poster's problems with Rifts are exactly that. Their Problem.

[Sureshot]

I insist that some poster's problems with Rifts are exactly that. Their Problem.

This to me is a cop-out of universe sized proportions. I agree sometimes depending on the player they may have trouble with a rules(s). But to ignore that their might be a problem with the rules and blame the individual reading them to me comes off as making excuses for the rules. The copy and paste errors PB could have fixed those long ago. The same with rules that contradict themselves. It's not like Rifts is a new product only a few months old. Nor is PB an up and starting company. Insist all you want but it is not going to make the ptoblems in the rules go away nor will gamers stop complaining about the rules. All it would take is a core rule book to fix up some of the issues with the system. The only way to really fix all the issues with the rules is a new edition. Neither of those two will happen.

You really need to stop putting the blame on those who buy and read the product rather than the product. You have done at least twice already. Your not going to get anyone to side with you on this if you keep it up. Not to mention it is being disrespectful toward your fellow gamer.

[Shark_Force]

it seems you want more roll playing and less role playing. in that case do what i do. buy minatures and play dice. but, for me i prefer more role playing. i dont care about mechanics as much as i do about letting your imagination loose

i disagree. having rules for resolving the outcome of interactions between a character you represent who's skills and abilities do not precisely match your own and a character played by the GM who's skills and abilities likewise do not match the character's does not negate the ability to roleplay. rollplay being the anitithesis of roleplay is a completely BS argument, because neither one automatically negates the possibility of the other, nor is one inherently better than the other.

[Rallan]

anyways, @ onetrikpony (who, i might add, appears to be handling the request for constructive input a lot better than many others here)

Indeed he is. So far he hasn't tried to tell anyone that if they don't like the game as much as him then the shouldn't be posting.

[popscythe]

I do find that there are a considerable number of rule complaint threads..

The lowest common denominator is fairly common.

[Shark_Force]

EDIT: In hindsight, i'd rather just leave this be.

[Rallan]

I do find that there are a considerable number of rule complaint threads. I agree with a number of the posters that yes, there are problems in the mechanics of the game. It can be clunky. It can be contradictory. However, I've also found that those issues never seem to cause me any great problems. I don't know if this is because I've been playing Rifts for nearly as long as there has been Rifts or if it is because I try to rely on the rules for mostly combat only purposes. I suppose where I'm going with this is do the kinks in the system really stop anyone from enjoying the game, and are any of the problems so significant to warrant a rewrite of not only Rifts but of all Palladium product lines? I feel the answer is no, but again as a 20 year gaming veteran I've house ruled more systems than I remember.

There's a lot of "this rule sucks" or "how do I make the rules do this better?" threads for two reasons.

1) Every RPG has lots of 'em. If people still play the damn game at all, people are going to have things they don't like about the rules, and they're going to talk about those things when they find a forum about their favourite RPG. The odd thing though is that on a lot of those forums for games by other companies, people who don't like the rules don't have to worry about being told that real fans aren't critical

and

2) As you've noticed yourself, Palladium's games are clunky and use a 20 year old system, no real attempt has ever been made to smooth out the wrinkles in the system, and no attempt at all has been made to learn from what other games by other publishers are doing (which is ironic, since Palladium Fantasy started out looking uncannily like it'd been built entirely by copying what another game by another publisher was doing ). Considering how clunky the rules are and how many gamers will've played other RPGs that approach things differently, I'm honestly surprised that the Palladium Books forums don't have more "this rule is broken" threads.

[Warmaster40k]

its not the system as a whole that needs fixing. Its little things. But there is so much glut of stats that it would take a herculean effort to bring every thing into a proper scale. For example, man sized characters in body armor using man sized weapon its fine it scales well. Its just when your spending millions of credits to use a robot combat vehicle, you expect that 30 ft death machine to kick ass as if it were a 30 ft death machine, not have the same amount of mdc as a flying power armor, and have its 5 inch guns do about teh same amount of damage as a wilks laser pistol. There needs to be scalling that just isnt there currently. The megaverse system is plays fantasy scale games fine but once you get into military grade hardware esspecially with mdc thats were its weakness just shows, its no where near as bad in sdc settings though. I think it has something to do with the fact that most people believe that a certain suit of power armor that is only 10 or 12 feet tall should have more fire power and more mdc than any other robot vehicle. When in fact most large robots should be doing 2d6*5 or 2d6*10 damage. And the devastator from Triax 1 should be doing 3d6*10 for its normal weapons and 2d6*100 for its main gun.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I insist that some poster's problems with Rifts are exactly that. Their Problem.

Have you ever heard the old phrase - "If you have a problem with your neighbor, chance's are it's the neighbor's fault. If you have a problem with all your neighbor's, chance's are you are the problem."

In this case, a lot of neighbor's have a problem with Rifts. Mainly it's the Palladium rules that are the culprit.


For most people, it's a good to great game setting, with less than ideal rules. In my case, along with many other's I'm sure, it's generally a matter of personal taste on what does or doesn't bug them.

For other folks it's a little deeper than that, and to those folks I suggest they use whatever rules from whatever game system they like at that point. Not every game system is going to pleae everyone. I've noticed that a few of the folks that fall in this category generally have little free time on their hands, and need a system that is simply better organized and streamlined.

[Khanibal]

1) I run with RAW, It's never caused me any problems.
2) I play 4th Ed D&D, because I like the group, but I don't like the system. I've played MMORPGs with more involved chracters.
3) If you don't like a rule, change it. I'll bet for every rule you ask the developement team to change one way. They get requests to change it the other way.
4) As I've stated before, I like bullet points.

[Kalidor]

I also do not like 4th Edition.

[popscythe]

In this case, a lot of neighbor's have a problem with Rifts.

I could just as easily say that most people who own the books think they're dandy, and it's the vocal minority who is posting repeatedly about how bad they are.

[Dr. Doom III]

What's wrong with kids today?
Why does everything need to be "simplified"?
Were we just smarter back in the day?

Get off my lawn! Where's my cane?

It's nice to see someone took my post in the spirit intended.

[runebeo]

I also do not like 4th Edition.

It was so good I return it to the store the next day, but because I removed the wrapping I only got store credit! I'll wait for a few reviews before putting that much money into an rpg again. Biggest mistake I made since pre-ordering Windows Vista!

[popscythe]

I also do not like 4th Edition.

It was so good I return it to the store the next day, but because I removed the wrapping I only got store credit! I'll wait for a few reviews before putting that much money into an rpg again. Biggest mistake I made since pre-ordering Windows Vista!

They're worried you might have copied it and be distributing illegal torrents of world of warcraft.

[Dustin Fireblade]

In this case, a lot of neighbor's have a problem with Rifts.

I could just as easily say that most people who own the books think they're dandy, and it's the vocal minority who is posting repeatedly about how bad they are.

Go post that as a question on RPG.net, or just search for the old Rifts/Palladium threads there if you want a larger crowd.

[Rallan]

In this case, a lot of neighbor's have a problem with Rifts.

I could just as easily say that most people who own the books think they're dandy, and it's the vocal minority who is posting repeatedly about how bad they are.

Gee, most people on a fan site think the thing they're a fan of is pretty good? That's... well, that's hardly an award-winning argument you've got there. As a quick visit to a site like RPG.net would show.

[Zer0 Kay]

Try playing it/them/garbage. You won't think it's so funny then.

Actually I have played both 3.5./Pathfinder and most other PB game lines and while the rules for the PB games are still very serviceable and usuable they are also imo very clunky, contradictory and spread all over the place. I have about 10+ pages of house rules for PB games. The only house rules I have for 3.5 is that Rangers were able to use medium armor if they choose two weapon fighting. That's it. I have no house rules for Pathfinder. Besides maybe Ninjas and Superspies most of the core book for the other game lines look exactly the same to me. They are probably copy and pasted as much as possible. So saying that the game are too diffeent to need a core rule book is frankly BS imo. I wish they would be honest as to why their is no core book. It is because Kevin is dead set against the idea. Which is okay it is his company. Still it makes no sense to not have one.

No I am not. I dislike what Hasbro has done to D&D. They have always been a greedy corporation and that is what they get.

To be fair they are not the only rpg company that is greedy. Most rpg companies are in it for the moeny including this one. Anyone who works for the company tells you otherwise is trying to look good and make points with the fans. Any fan of any rpg company who says otherwise is delibratrly being naive and spray painting the rose colored glasses black.

Why does everything Is this really called for? I was asking a question on whether or not a new edition of Rifts was in the works. I am not going to simply start purchasing material from Palladium without having the information I need. Role playing is not based necessarily on the rules of a game but in the substance of your players anyways. However, I DO NOT ENJOY RULES DEBATE WHEN I AM PLAYING A ROLEPLAYING GAME. So yes, I like a simpler more streamlines rules set. Sorry to both you.

It is funny everytime either on these boards or other rpg boards where the rules are in need of an update if you want to streamline or improve the rules your are either:

-Not trying to understand the game
-Unable to read the game (my personal favorite)
-Or looked down upon for wanting a streamlined system

I also like streamlined systems and would rather use the RAW. I do not have the time or willingness to hammer out a set of houserules. With PB I am kind of stuck with the system as if and I have come to terms with it. The thing is I find my self GMing less and less of it as time goes on. I do not mind being a player but until the system at least gets a unfied core book chances are I will not run it for awhile. I still buy PB books for use with other games. I just wish I did not have to use those other games. As for what a person can or cannot post I ignore the overzealous PB fans on the boards. As long as the post follows the forum rules and is polite an non offensive I will post however I want whenever I want as long as it is relavent to the topic at hand.

Your right PB does want money. But if they were GREEDY KS would have already put PB up for public trade and produce 5 different versions of Rifts gone out and tried to get liscences for stupid things like The Rocky Horror Picture Show RPG or so he could change the name of Dead Reign to Night of the Living Dead. Something equally limited with a cult following that would buy it for no other reason than it has the name on it... heck he could probably just leave the pages blank too. But it is like PB is almost ran as a hobby than it is a real business.

Why did you buy the system if you don't like it? How are you STUCK with it? You've tried throwing it out the window and it boomerangs back in the window and onto a table or something?

[Sureshot]

Your right PB does want money. But if they were GREEDY KS would have already put PB up for public trade and produce 5 different versions of Rifts gone out and tried to get liscences for stupid things like The Rocky Horror Picture Show RPG or so he could change the name of Dead Reign to Night of the Living Dead. Something equally limited with a cult following that would buy it for no other reason than it has the name on it... heck he could probably just leave the pages blank too. But it is like PB is almost ran as a hobby than it is a real business.

Just because KS has not done the above does not mean that he does not want PB to be profitable. Their is a big difference in being greedy and wanting the business to be profitable. If all they wanted to do was just produce quality gaming they would just release game books. Instead they want to make the business more profitable and branched out into other things. You have the various Rifts paraphernalia for lack of a better term and they are optioning some of their IP for movie rights and other things. If that is not a sign on wanting to make a profit I do not know what is. You also have the fact that PB is having financial trouble. Do you honestly think that if push come to shove Kevin would not have to try something drastic to keep the company afloat. Maybe even trying some of the truly ridiculous examples you give above. While running PB is a hobby they still have to pay the bills and pay employees. While I can respect them for doing so personally I think they should have run it a little more like a business imo.

Why did you buy the system if you don't like it? How are you STUCK with it? You've tried throwing it out the window and it boomerangs back in the window and onto a table or something?

First off nice attempt at trying to get a reaction out of me. Wow can't say I did not see that coming. Second some advice I won't tell you what to buy or do with your stuff you don't tell me what to do with mine. Third Robotech and D&D 2E were the two games that made me get into the rpg hobby. Even though I do not like the PB rules like I used too I do feel some sentimental value to the company because of it. I also use some material from their books with other systems. Fourth for all my dislike of the rules their is just something about reading Rifts and other PB games that keeps me buying and keeping their books. Fifth I am lucky to have access to at least 5-6 players who would play almost any PB game. The two excpetions are BTS2 (incomplete) and Chaos Earth (what the point the coming of the rifts still happens and it is also missing some stuff). Finally stick to the thread at hand and not attempt to derail it by bringing up my spending habits

[popscythe]

RPG.net

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Oh well now it all makes sense. Guess we're at an impasse on this one.

rpgnet. Hahahahahahahaha!

[Zer0 Kay]

Your right PB does want money. But if they were GREEDY KS would have already put PB up for public trade and produce 5 different versions of Rifts gone out and tried to get liscences for stupid things like The Rocky Horror Picture Show RPG or so he could change the name of Dead Reign to Night of the Living Dead. Something equally limited with a cult following that would buy it for no other reason than it has the name on it... heck he could probably just leave the pages blank too. But it is like PB is almost ran as a hobby than it is a real business.

Just because KS has not done the above does not mean that he does not want PB to be profitable. Their is a big difference in being greedy and wanting the business to be profitable. If all they wanted to do was just produce quality gaming they would just release game books. Instead they want to make the business more profitable and branched out into other things. You have the various Rifts paraphernalia for lack of a better term and they are optioning some of their IP for movie rights and other things. If that is not a sign on wanting to make a profit I do not know what is. You also have the fact that PB is having financial trouble. Do you honestly think that if push come to shove Kevin would not have to try something drastic to keep the company afloat. Maybe even trying some of the truly ridiculous examples you give above. While running PB is a hobby they still have to pay the bills and pay employees. While I can respect them for doing so personally I think they should have run it a little more like a business imo.

Why did you buy the system if you don't like it? How are you STUCK with it? You've tried throwing it out the window and it boomerangs back in the window and onto a table or something?

First off nice attempt at trying to get a reaction out of me. Wow can't say I did not see that coming. Second some advice I won't tell you what to buy or do with your stuff you don't tell me what to do with mine. Third Robotech and D&D 2E were the two games that made me get into the rpg hobby. Even though I do not like the PB rules like I used too I do feel some sentimental value to the company because of it. I also use some material from their books with other systems. Fourth for all my dislike of the rules their is just something about reading Rifts and other PB games that keeps me buying and keeping their books. Fifth I am lucky to have access to at least 5-6 players who would play almost any PB game. The two excpetions are BTS2 (incomplete) and Chaos Earth (what the point the coming of the rifts still happens and it is also missing some stuff). Finally stick to the thread at hand and not attempt to derail it by bringing up my spending habits

1) You just agreed with me that he isn't greedy and I was saying previously that Hasbro is greedy and THAT is the reason they continue coming out with new editions every so many years, like Games Workshop. They do it so you have to buy entire new series of books or you have to house rule some stats and stuff to make your old books work.

2) Wasn't looking for a reaction, I was looking for an answer. I mean really if you don't like it why did you buy it? But you answered that, sentimentality. There are others on these boards who seem to be here for no other reason than to voice their distaste. This is the thread. 1) is directly connected to the thread on why he doesn't produce rules updates so drastic it would kill the rest of the books and require all the fans to purchase an entire new line. 2) is directed to find out why YOU are bad mouthing the system and thereby determine why you think there needs to be an entire new system.

[Shark_Force]

RPG.net

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Oh well now it all makes sense. Guess we're at an impasse on this one.

rpgnet. Hahahahahahahaha!

what? is there something not valid about rpg.net? is it somehow *not* a major hub in the internet when it comes to discussing rpgs? are they somehow less valid of a measurement of what roleplaying game fans like as a whole than the palladium forums?

people who frequent the palladium books forums are not exactly unbiased. now granted, you let a group of people at any RPG, and they're going to find flaws most likely. but here's the thing: the fact that they find fault with something does not magically mean that the fault does not exist. if most people who look at it conclude that the rules can be contradictory, confusing, and unclear, regardless of the fact that you seem to feel the rules are completely clear, there is probably a problem with the rules being contradictory, confusing, and unclear.

in general, this can be said to leave a lot of room for the GM to decide how things work. but i'd rather have clear, concise, and internally consistent rules that leave lots of room for the GM to decide. if they want to leave something not clearly defined for a GM to be able to rule either way, then they should just come right out and say "here are X examples of how you could handle this, or you can come up with something of your own", and then they should make a note that there is deliberately no specified way to deal with it and then not introduce 5 different rules for it in 5 different supplements that are all official and which all contradict one another. (though they could certainly introduce *optional* rules for handling the situation, which could be added to the list of examples in the original version.)

but there really is a problem with the rules saying one thing in one place, and then saying something else in another, and often nothing to indicate which one should be used, with both being considered official.

the system could really use some updating. at this point, it's a really bad idea to change the mechanics entirely, but a general cleaning up of poorly worded, unclear, confusing, and contradictory rules would be really nice.

[Rallan]

RPG.net

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Oh well now it all makes sense. Guess we're at an impasse on this one.

rpgnet. Hahahahahahahaha!

Well I'm glad you're not making anyone else's point about uncritical overly defensive fanboys or anything.

[Dustin Fireblade]

RPG.net

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Oh well now it all makes sense. Guess we're at an impasse on this one.

rpgnet. Hahahahahahahaha!

What Shark and Rallan said.

[runebeo]

I like to see psionic selection become random like Palladium Fantasy old edition was. So many people just pick the same ones and I also like that the old core book gave decreased skills for being a major psychic, but it was a little harsh maybe reducing it to a loss of two secondary skills would be fair. Too many players just want add psionic to a character as if its as easy as getting a tattoo. Back to random psi-selection so its like I'm going wish to Santa that I'll get Mind Block, Sixth Sense & See the invisible. "Hey Bob Santa brought me the same abilities too." I do think master psychics, Cyber Knights, Mystic Knights and such with special training should be able to guide their psychic tree to some limit say roll under 60% to choose their powers for that level. At least it should be some optional rules to make it random might breed some variety.

My entire group agrees with you Psionics should have always been random and I like to see less picking and choosing for mages after all they can also buy nearly any spell they want. The way it is now a player can map out his character's future powers all the way to level 15, a little randomness may add some spice. Our GM imposed a penalty to Sixth Sense that it costs two selection nearly a decade ago and still nearly every psychic characters still picked it and didn't care about the extra skill cost.

[Shark_Force]

i don't think the OCCs that specifically train their psychic abilities should get random ones, but i'll agree that people who just have abilities tacked on to them could very logically get stuck rolling random ones.

mostly because the former is going to change the class completely, whereas rolling randomly for the rogue scholar's 2 powers known is only going to have an effect on a very small (and added on) portion of the class.

[Sureshot]

RPG.net

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Oh well now it all makes sense. Guess we're at an impasse on this one.

rpgnet. Hahahahahahahaha!

What Shark and Rallan said.

Seconded.

[popscythe]

Well I'm glad you're not making anyone else's point about uncritical overly defensive fanboys or anything.

You just referenced the Mos Eisley of the RPG community as who thinks that palladium needs work.

That would be like me saying what 4chan thinks about something and expecting you not to spit tisdale merlot all over the place laughing.
The IQ of a mob is the IQ of it's least intelligent member divided by the number of people in the mob AND there again, the majority of members, even in Mos Eisley, are the silent majority, not the vocal "lets have a witch hunt/sh*tfit" minority.

[Shark_Force]

Well I'm glad you're not making anyone else's point about uncritical overly defensive fanboys or anything.

You just referenced the Mos Eisley of the RPG community as who thinks that palladium needs work.

That would be like me saying what 4chan thinks about something and expecting you not to spit tisdale merlot all over the place laughing.
The IQ of a mob is the IQ of it's least intelligent member divided by the number of people in the mob AND there again, the majority of members, even in Mos Eisley, are the silent majority, not the vocal "lets have a witch hunt/sh*tfit" minority.

just because they don't follow you around telling you you're right doesn't make them stupid, ignorant, or incompetent.

like it or net, they may not be very *nice* about how they say things, but you don't have to be nice to be accurate. it's one of the major places where gamers get together to talk about all RPGs. palladium is not. it's a tiny subsample of an already small sample of the population that plays RPGs. an extremely biased subsample, and even so there are more of us who are willing to step up and say that much as we like the settings and the company, the rules are far too often unclear, imprecise, downright contradictory, confusing, lacking in examples, lacking in scope, and not found in the place they should be (and probably other problems i didn't just mention). i'd like to point out that while i objected to certain posts above, it's not that i objected to the claim that palladium has a really poor rule system (especially compared to many around today), merely that there was no useful content to the posts. you're starting to run into the same area; you keep on asserting that the rules are crystal clear and only an idiot could misunderstand them, and anyone who disagrees with you is immediately labeled as some sort of intellectual midget who probably couldn't reason their way out of a wet paper bag. but you never actually contribute anything. you don't address people's points, you just tell them they're stupid for not thinking the same as you. it's an incredibly poor way to hold a discussion, it's a poor way to treat fellow human beings, and it doesn't prove anything except that you're not willing to consider anyone else's point of view.

as was posted above... if you have a problem with one neighbor, the neighbor is probably the problem. if you have a problem with all of your neighbors, the problem is most likely you.

but hey, since the rules are apparently crystal clear, let's go with some examples:

1) a dog boy throws a grenade at a ley line walker and hits.
2) a dog boy throws a grenade at a ley line walker and misses.
3) a dog boy and a fenry demon are wrestling. 1 has the wrestling skill, the other doesn't. please give 1 round of combat example.
4) a dog boy and a fenry demon are wrestling. both have the wrestling skill. please give 1 round of combat example.
5) a dog boy and a fenry demon are wrestling. neither have the wrestling skill. please give 1 round of combat example.
6) a dog boy armed with a vibro-sword is fighting a fenry demon in melee combat. please give 1 round of combat example.

in all cases, you must cite rules (book and page number), and demonstrate that there is only one way that the rules could possibly be understood (since your assertion is that the rules are in fact perfectly clear and have no problems). for the sake of argument, you may assume anywhere from 4-infinity attacks per combat round for any situation requesting an example of 1 combat round. neither side should attempt anything fancy, simply resolve the fight as the rules state. notwithstanding it's poor policy to place core rules in random books elsewhere in the product line, i'll even give you permission to use any palladium book you wish (though it's even poorer policy to make someone buy a book that isn't even part of the product line to be able to understand the product line). what you may not do is simply make something up; this is, after all, your demonstration on the clarity of the rules, not on the fact that a good GM can work around unclear rules. also, bear in mind that we will be looking for inconsistencies and contradictions to whatever you may cite, since you are also claiming that the rules don't have a problem with contradicting themselves.

however, it should be noted that these scenarios really should be clearly spelled out in the core book.

[Rallan]

Well I'm glad you're not making anyone else's point about uncritical overly defensive fanboys or anything.

You just referenced the Mos Eisley of the RPG community as who thinks that palladium needs work.

That would be like me saying what 4chan thinks about something and expecting you not to spit tisdale merlot all over the place laughing.
The IQ of a mob is the IQ of it's least intelligent member divided by the number of people in the mob AND there again, the majority of members, even in Mos Eisley, are the silent majority, not the vocal "lets have a witch hunt/sh*tfit" minority.

Y'know, I've seen an awful lot of interesting (and hilarious) things said over the years about RPG.net, both by its own members (who tend not to take the place very seriously), and by fanboys from this forum who hate the place with a passion (and there've been more than a few, especially back in the good old days of stuff like the Bill Coffin Drama Bomb or Kevin publically going from talking up Dead Reign's writer as the best guy ever to blaming him entirely for the need for a rewrite in the space of a week), but I think you're the first guy who's ever tried to dismiss them as the 4chan of the RPG community.

Again, you're doing a very convincing job of convincing people that you're approaching this thread with a bit of an uncritical fanboy mentality, since you seem to either dismiss all critics of the game as morons or aggressively attack them and try to suggest that they're only here out of spite. That's not really the behavior of someone who's interested in sitting down and participating in a thread that's all about criticisms people have with the game and how to improve them. That strikes me as the behavior of someone who just showed up to disapprove of everyone who doesn't like the game as much as he does.

[popscythe]

grenade wrestling

Impressive speech. In RUE under the coalition grenade, it says you can throw the grenade 40 yards. If you throw the grenade and miss, it misses, and the gm adjudicates if it hits anything else, just like with shots that miss or etc. if it hits, it deals it's listed damage to everything in the listed area. I don't see what's unclear about wrestling. I can't cut and paste it here, but in RUE, under the wrestling skill, it says what you can do and what die rolls are required certain moves are, etc. What's the problem?
Despite the fact that you're being snide because you're wrong, you're actually helping improve the book with this. If you actually find something worth fixing, you can post it in the errata thread and improve the book, thereby doing your part. Furthermore, what in the name of Jumpin' Joseph Prosek was wrong with just posting "hey I think these rules don't make sense" in the errata thread if you really thought they were messed up/missing/hard to understand/should be in the core book/whatever? Why would you spend all the effort complaining about how bad the book is when you could have fixed the problem in half as many words if it truly was a problem that needed to be brought to the attention of the game development and correction staff?

fanboys

What's with the pejorative of the day? I have to be a fanatic because I have no problem using the tools that I am provided, and find them sufficient.
Everything doesn't have to be a series of extremes. That's a problem that people have, the wording is loose on something and it's a travesty, no matter how many times the book begs you to use common sense. You're trying to tell me the book is difficult to use and or doesn't work, and I'm telling you that it's your problem and that it works fine. Either I'm lying, or you're having a problem figuring it out/using it. That's not arrogant to state, it's exactly what's going on here.

rpgnet is the gamefaqs or mmorpg.com or 4chan of it's genre. That's not even up for debate.

[Dustin Fireblade]

grenade wrestling

Impressive speech. In RUE under the coalition grenade, it says you can throw the grenade 40 yards. If you throw the grenade and miss, it misses, and the gm adjudicates if it hits anything else, just like with shots that miss or etc. if it hits, it deals it's listed damage to everything in the listed area. I don't see what's unclear about wrestling. I can't cut and paste it here, but in RUE, under the wrestling skill, it says what you can do and what die rolls are required certain moves are, etc. What's the problem?
Despite the fact that you're being snide because you're wrong, you're actually helping improve the book with this. If you actually find something worth fixing, you can post it in the errata thread and improve the book, thereby doing your part. Furthermore, what in the name of Jumpin' Joseph Prosek was wrong with just posting "hey I think these rules don't make sense" in the errata thread if you really thought they were messed up/missing/hard to understand/should be in the core book/whatever? Why would you spend all the effort complaining about how bad the book is when you could have fixed the problem in half as many words if it truly was a problem that needed to be brought to the attention of the game development and correction staff?

You missed his points, about the problems facing his examples and the fact its been a fundamental flaw with the system since forever.

[Sureshot]

What's with the pejorative of the day? I have to be a fanatic because I have no problem using the tools that I am provided, and find them sufficient.
Everything doesn't have to be a series of extremes.

Your not a fanatic because you have no problems with the rules but becaue you seem to either dismiss all critics of the game as morons or aggressively attack them and try to suggest that they're only here out of spite. That is why. A little less of that and you would not get treated as an overzealous fan. As for pejorative of the day you seem very free throwing them around yet don't like it when it is done to you.

rpgnet is the gamefaqs or mmorpg.com or 4chan of it's genre. That's not even up for debate.

I see since you state something as fact it must be fact. Once again you wonder why your being treated as an overzealous fan. You can put a tuxedo on a goat it is still goat no matter how many times I state as "fact" that it is not.

[Elthbert]

Hello,

I know, I know, this has probably been brought up a lot. however, I was unable to locate for it in the forums!
I am curious as to why a new edition of Rifts RPG is not in the works? It seems like the system could use an overhaul,
and this would allow the attraction of new gamers into the Rifts world. Now I understand that some people will not switch and like to use there old books where as a new edition would likely limit this. But there is no way that this is the best possible evolution of the Rifts game. I have the ultimate edition Rifts core book, but I find it easier to just play games like Pathfinder, DND 3.5, and WoD. The game is more complicated than these games which makes it more difficult to run. It seems like to me a twenty year old system could use some updating... I love the Rifts world and would invest further if a new edition could be presented. I notice that most people get set in there ways with games. For example, people still play second edition DND, while most switched to third edition. I played both and I do think that third edition was a huge step in the right direction for the game.

Anyways just curious on the situation.

NO! Hell NO! One of the things I love about Rifts is that it hasn't edition jumped, the day a truely new edition comes out is the day Palladium will stop getting my money.

[Shark_Force]

grenade wrestling

Impressive speech. In RUE under the coalition grenade, it says you can throw the grenade 40 yards. If you throw the grenade and miss, it misses, and the gm adjudicates if it hits anything else, just like with shots that miss or etc. if it hits, it deals it's listed damage to everything in the listed area. I don't see what's unclear about wrestling. I can't cut and paste it here, but in RUE, under the wrestling skill, it says what you can do and what die rolls are required certain moves are, etc. What's the problem?
Despite the fact that you're being snide because you're wrong, you're actually helping improve the book with this. If you actually find something worth fixing, you can post it in the errata thread and improve the book, thereby doing your part. Furthermore, what in the name of Jumpin' Joseph Prosek was wrong with just posting "hey I think these rules don't make sense" in the errata thread if you really thought they were messed up/missing/hard to understand/should be in the core book/whatever? Why would you spend all the effort complaining about how bad the book is when you could have fixed the problem in half as many words if it truly was a problem that needed to be brought to the attention of the game development and correction staff?

fanboys

What's with the pejorative of the day? I have to be a fanatic because I have no problem using the tools that I am provided, and find them sufficient.
Everything doesn't have to be a series of extremes. That's a problem that people have, the wording is loose on something and it's a travesty, no matter how many times the book begs you to use common sense. You're trying to tell me the book is difficult to use and or doesn't work, and I'm telling you that it's your problem and that it works fine. Either I'm lying, or you're having a problem figuring it out/using it. That's not arrogant to state, it's exactly what's going on here.

rpgnet is the gamefaqs or mmorpg.com or 4chan of it's genre. That's not even up for debate.

i'm not asking you to post the rules, i'm asking you to post an example. if you were to play a game of rifts in a chat program, you could post the chat log here no problem. same thing with your example; just go through it one action at a time.

as for the example that you did post, it's a perfect example of what we're talking about. if it hits, fine, if not, then... the GM just makes something up on the spot. wow, you sure showed me... what a strong, clearly stated rule, straight out of the book... oh wait, no it isn't. it isn't even a suggested rule. your solution is "make something up on the spot.", which pretty clearly demonstrates that there is something missing. i mean, it's not like we're discussing rules for riding a unicycle across a rope stretched between 2 pine trees that bend and move depending on the weight of the rider, location on the rope, and how well balanced he is, while juggling three longbows and arrows (you just draw the longbow with your teeth, juggle the other four objects in one hand, and use the other hand for aiming the longbow... then you shoot) firing at hamsters doing the macarena behind bulletproof glass whilst riding a pony. it's a fairly standard thing to come up in a game that has grenades that the grenade will miss and will (presumably) go somewhere and then explode, and it's often pretty important to know where that somewhere is, and as you've just demonstrated, if there even is any set of rules to describe it, we don't know where they are.

also, while we're examining rules that are unclear or contradictory, WP targeting in RUE lists a range for grenades of 20 feet, and includes some modifiers based on what kind of strength you have. nothing lists grenades at 120 feet, and nothing about the CS grenades indicates they have any special method of propulsion or anything of the sort. if we go to previous books, range even scales with level if you have WP targeting. also, what about all the other stuff in the blast radius. do they get a dodge roll if they want? or can i just choose to aim for the ground 1 inch away from a person to deny them any sort of dodge? doesn't the person at the center of the blast take full damage and the stuff in the radius takes half, just as described with missiles on page 362? or is that just a special rule for missiles, and doesn't apply to grenades?

and for the record, the rules for grappling are not any more clear than the rules on grenades.

[jaymz]

<snips a LOT of extraneous arguing after readin three pages of posts>

I am a Fan of Rifts. I am also a Fan of several other games but they do not capture my imagination like Rifts. It did for me what Shadowrun never could. Took fantasy elements and incorporated them into a high tech post apocalyptic setting that grabbed my attention and has kept it for 20 years.

At first Iplayed it and loved it thinking this is the best thing since sliced bread (I had played AD&D and completely dispised it and also knew a few toehr games which I hadn't gott en to actually play) I loved it so much thatafter my first two sessions as aplayer I went out and bought the RMB, SB1, CB1, and WB1 VK. I loved the system and the way thigns worked that I eventually bought all teh Rtech books as wellas BTS, NS&S and all the TMNT stuff back at that time.

HOWEVER, over time, I have gotten older wiser (at least i think I have) and less enamoured with the rules. I still absolutely love the setting but the rules over time have become less and less likeable. I think this has occcured to all of us that have been around since the beginning or near begining. Back in teh day Rifts was new and fresh and we blindly ignored the problems with the rules. However as the years passed our rose coloured glasses slowly lost thier tint.

I have my own issues with the rules and I have come up with some ways to fix them but mine arent neccessarily right for others and others aren;t neccesarily right for me. We all have our own ways of making combat faster or makingmagic more powerful/efficient.

Does this mean it needs a new full blown edition? No, not at all.

Why? RUE actually does fix many of the minor issues that were in the RMB imo. Does it still have flaws? To some it does not to others it is worse than the original.

I think the basics of the system works just fine. It is the fien tuning of the basics that need work. That is my main reason for not thinking a full blown new edition is needed.

[Sureshot]

ya its to minatures based. i want sped in meters not freakin squares... what if i dont have a map. all 4th is is a way for you to have to spend more money on crap you do not need

The same could be said of PB and any other rpg game company. Or any company that sells a product. Of course they want you to spend more money. With rifts all you need is RUE. Everything else depends on your needs. As for 4E needing minatures they do help but you can get buy with coins in place of minautres or other stuff. Your not forced to buy the minis. I bought a few but otherwise do not touch them at all. Seriously some on this board need to come up with better criticisms than a company wanting to make a profit. Which company in its right mind would not want to. Espcially in the current economy.

[runebeo]

I've played all the PB games with minatures it just boring to play with just paper. Minatures can add so insight to combat and with such a wide range of selection theses day u can find a close match for any character, vechicle or creature. Using minis is great for the gm to see what forces availble and helps to make sure no one gets overlooked. Using tactics such as tanking and backstabbing attacks can change peoples way of playing I think for the better. We like to enforce a no take back rule too stop if from become a time comsuming mess,

[jaymz]

ya its to minatures based. i want sped in meters not freakin squares... what if i dont have a map. all 4th is is a way for you to have to spend more money on crap you do not need

The same could be said of PB and any other rpg game company. Or any company that sells a product. Of course they want you to spend more money. With rifts all you need is RUE. Everything else depends on your needs. As for 4E needing minatures they do help but you can get buy with coins in place of minautres or other stuff. Your not forced to buy the minis. I bought a few but otherwise do not touch them at all. Seriously some on this board need to come up with better criticisms than a company wanting to make a profit. Which company in its right mind would not want to. Espcially in the current economy.

Oh Oh... A Non-Profit one!?! Ok, all joking aside. I agree. Minis can be useful, I enjoy using them especially for combat. If I were to criticize anything with the Hasbro systems it would be that they do write there rules for minis as opposed to providing rules if you want to use them. However, that being said, you by no means require minis and if Palladium launched a line of plastic pre-painted minis in the same vein as Star Wars or D&D I would be all over them!

They did have aline of mnis back in the day but sadly the company that produced them went bye bye. I have a few and they still have some here on teh site.

Side note - I have created many paper counters to 25mm scale based onte RUE, RMB, SB1 and SB1 revised images if anyone is interested.

Again though I do not think Rifts needs a full new edition. RUE imo did answer some of thre minor issues but the real culprit in all this is MDC in general I think. In an SDC setting you can NOT hurt a tank with a hand gun. In Rifts with and MDC hand gun you can plink away at any vehicle that has MDC and eventually kill it. THAT to me is the primary issue with Rifts.

[popscythe]

pejorative; you seem very free throwing them around

That's simply untrue. My argument regarding the thread's topic does not require name calling to be explained sufficiently. Any calls that I have made that you feel might be biased are your own reaction to being incorrect foisted upon me. Go back and reexamine what has actually been said, and correctly determine if you're posting out of a place of accuracy, or if you are attacking me personally on an RPG forum because you are angry that your point is massively flawed.

the GM just makes something up on the spot

Yeah, that's what's known as the GM using common sense, as the book repeatedly implores the GM to do. There's no rule that states how gravity works, or how breathing works, and yet players don't float from the earth and are able to intake air and survive when it is available, and yet the game gets by swimmingly without them. No, the system isn't intended for a player to exploit the lack of a GM's common sense by attempting to score automatic hits with grenades. As with everything else in the game's clear and obvious-in-intention system, you make an attack and it resolves normally with the additional effect of doing extra damage in a radius if it resolves accurately. That "well it doesn't say we can't get undodgable hits so it's possible!" is the type of thing that people do on internet forums to keep an argument going that they've lost (or pull in RPG games to attempt to cheat at a cooperative effort), much like insisting that the person on the opposite side of the debate type 500 words about something so that they can pick it apart and twist the wording as much as humanly possible in an effort to find some foothold to cling to.

No, none of the deliberate confusion and twisting of the rules that you've mentioned applies. It's too bad that you'd go to so much effort to essentially lie on the internet to prove that something else needs to compensate for people like yourself who would follow this illogical course instead of just playing the game as it was intended (simply and easily) and then be so bold as the blame the subject itself. It's possible to cheat at nearly any game with the methodology you are displaying. Perhaps we should just agree that players or GMs who are using your methodology are not to be played with whatsoever and that the fault therein is not Rifts'.

[Sureshot]

That's simply untrue. My argument regarding the thread's topic does not require name calling to be explained sufficiently. Any calls that I have made that you feel might be biased are your own reaction to being incorrect foisted upon me. Go back and reexamine what has actually been said, and correctly determine if you're posting out of a place of accuracy, or if you are attacking me personally on an RPG forum because you are angry that your point is massively flawed.

Oh really. You have not been throwing insults around. Your actually can post that with a straight face. Let see you have:

-Accused people of not understanding rules because they are lazy and can't be bothered to read the rules.
-Made insulting comments about rpg.net without any real concrete proof beyond stating that you think it is fact.
-Just accused Sharkforce and indirectly myself and other GMs of lacking commen sense because we would rather have clear concise rules rather than make stuff up. I do make stuff up for other rpgs I am not going to invent whole sections of rules that should have been oncluded in the first place.
- Go so far as insult Sharforce and myself a second time by saying that we are bad players and GMs because we cannot grasp the rules according to your standard and go further say that other should not play with players like us.
- Unless someone agrees with you their arguments are wrong and flawed. I asmit sometimes I am wrong with stuff I post. Unlike yourself I do not assume that everyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

Not only that but you also try and play the victime card. Incredible.

A word of advice you need to really stop attacking people in threads. I am one step of away from putting you on my ignore list. The first and only time I have ever considered it on this site. I find an ignore list reprehensible. You need to stop coming on these board with an myself vs them attitude. It will get you ignored and possilby banned. You like the rules as they are I can respect that. You also need to respect that some like myself and others do not find the rules perfect. Hell even gamers who like the rules acknowledge that they need work. Kevin even no longer plays with the RAW. It has been shown many times by many others that the rules are not perfect.

[jaymz]

I may not be a mod but can you both please take your arguing to PMs since it has ZERO to do with the topic at hand?


As for a new version of the game - One isn't needed. What is needed is an in depth faq/errata section which the Cutting room floor is not. I don't expect a rules system to be perfect, since that isn't possible, but a place to use as a resource that is consistent and non-contradictory would be nice.

[popscythe]

but a place to use as a resource that is consistent and non-contradictory would be nice.

That's actually the point I've been trying to make. There are surprisingly few contradictions in the RAW. If you've found one, post it in an errata thread!

[Rallan]

unlike WoTC who have mind you gone through 3 editions in less than a decade. that is just to much crap to buy.

You'll notice it hasn't hurt their sales though, even though it was the talk of the RPG community that work began on DnD3.5 almost as soon as 3.0 hit the shelves because a new edition after a few years was a conscious part of their strategy.

New editions also don't seem to have hurt White Wolf (which survived three new editions of its old World Of Darkness games followed by a reboot of the entire setting, and is still the second-biggest RPG company by a considerable margin) or Steve Jackson Games (four editions of GURPS so far, and thoroughly entrenched as the third biggest-selling RPG company around).

Palladium's habit of doing new editions as infrequently as possible so that all the books will stay usable is nice, but I can't really find much evidence that it's either a good thing or a bad thing from a sales perspective.

[Zer0 Kay]

unlike WoTC who have mind you gone through 3 editions in less than a decade. that is just to much crap to buy.

You'll notice it hasn't hurt their sales though, even though it was the talk of the RPG community that work began on DnD3.5 almost as soon as 3.0 hit the shelves because a new edition after a few years was a conscious part of their strategy.

New editions also don't seem to have hurt White Wolf (which survived three new editions of its old World Of Darkness games followed by a reboot of the entire setting, and is still the second-biggest RPG company by a considerable margin) or Steve Jackson Games (four editions of GURPS so far, and thoroughly entrenched as the third biggest-selling RPG company around).

Palladium's habit of doing new editions as infrequently as possible so that all the books will stay usable is nice, but I can't really find much evidence that it's either a good thing or a bad thing from a sales perspective.

They've done tons of editions. They just don't do it all at once.

Recon (completely unrelated)
Mechanoids first SDC world has psychic powers and magic both powered by ISP
PFRPG introduces magic powered by PPE
N&S introduces an alternate set of HtH
Heroes Unlimited Introduces unpowered powers
TMNT introduces Bio-E for genetic engineering and a way that the Megaverse can possibly be tied together (TMNT Trans-Dimensional).
Robotech introduces MDC a missile chart and in Invid Invasion introduces mini-missiles
Rifts introduces an official connection to all dimensions in the Megaverse and so much more

So the system isn't stagnant it is just modified slowly... by evolution , heck look at the skill systems between the various games.

[Kalidor]

Is this topic broken? It won't refresh as being read. This is a test post to see if it fixes that problem

[DracoMagus]

I didn't see it come up as a new topic....maybe now though?

[jaymz]

unlike WoTC who have mind you gone through 3 editions in less than a decade. that is just to much crap to buy.

You'll notice it hasn't hurt their sales though, even though it was the talk of the RPG community that work began on DnD3.5 almost as soon as 3.0 hit the shelves because a new edition after a few years was a conscious part of their strategy.

New editions also don't seem to have hurt White Wolf (which survived three new editions of its old World Of Darkness games followed by a reboot of the entire setting, and is still the second-biggest RPG company by a considerable margin) or Steve Jackson Games (four editions of GURPS so far, and thoroughly entrenched as the third biggest-selling RPG company around).

Palladium's habit of doing new editions as infrequently as possible so that all the books will stay usable is nice, but I can't really find much evidence that it's either a good thing or a bad thing from a sales perspective.

I'm willing to guess palladium books has never been as financially profitable as the big boys but also don't have the overhead, so I don't know if the infrequent new editions or revisions is really a good thing at all. The small company size does keep the king in charge of the kingdom and has a tendency to keep the system at a status quo, however it does slow the release of new product and preserves outdated or inaccurate mechanics.

Essentially we're using a core that consist of a combat mechanics based off a 34 year old system with the addition of deteriorating armor and a skill system based off a 30 year old skill system. The strength is in the settings and writing, the weakness of it is in mechanics (writing is strong, statistics and modeling is weak).

Mechanoids first SDC world has psychic powers and magic both powered by ISP

I'm pretty sure it originally had only HPs and uses per day (like AD&D).

PFRPG introduces magic powered by PPE

Actually that particular change happened with Heroes Unlimited and was changed with PFRPG second edition, which also included the addition of SDC, changes in H2H skills and the addition of ISP for psionics, first edition used HP and uses per day for both magic and psionics.

N&S introduces an alternate set of HtH

It also introduced the concept of CHI for powering martial arts skills.

Heroes Unlimited Introduces unpowered powers

Also introduced the PPE and ISP later used for all games.

TMNT introduces Bio-E for genetic engineering and a way that the Megaverse can possibly be tied together (TMNT Trans-Dimensional).

Originally was only HP based, with animal psionics use without ISP.

Robotech introduces MDC a missile chart and in Invid Invasion introduces mini-missiles

Arguably the most divisive change. I think the need to make the new tech so much better than modern tech created this gigantic power creep and has led to the continual power creep we have seen ever since. Instead of the wonderful tech being neat due to the cool factor of giant robots, that are reasonably more durable than normal, we got giants robots which are far more durable than the ones from the canon source. I am currently sand boxing with a scaled system(SDC, MDC(1:10), HMDC(1:100) that uses multiple penetration levels and damage reductions (it seems to be working well so far but who knows).

Rifts introduces an official connection to all dimensions in the Megaverse and so much more

Love the setting...

So the system isn't stagnant it is just modified slowly... by evolution , heck look at the skill systems between the various games.

Skill system changes, OCC, and powers I can get since they are different settings, I don't like the way that combat mechanics don't stay consistent between books in the same setting, never mind throughout the system, or the way the that calculated attributes aren't consistent.

Excellent post

[Sureshot]

its not the making a profit thing i have a problem with. all componies want to do that. but, i should not have to use minis, or anything in place of minis. and a condition track, 3 diffirent armor classes i feel, as do many of my contemporaries, that its more of a minitures game and less of an rpg. i was happy with 3.5, so were most gamers. the thing is that WoTC is a good rpg company. they just make very ignorant decisions. i have only meet a few people that play 4th ed (and i know over 300 people that play rpg's). an rpg game is not a videogame console that gets redune every 5 years, so you end up having to spend another 100 dollars. and now i have hundreds of dollars invested into 3.5, and they will never again make another 3.0 or 3.5 book. give it time and they'll have 4.5 soon (within 5 years). although the PB system is inferior to DnD, the one thing you dont have to do is spend another 100 dollars to get a new core set of books every 5 years. so although, PB is lacking greatly in rules, they are not gobbling up your money like WoTC is doing.

For good or bad it seems that most of the industry as a whole has embraced the whole new edition of an rpg every few years as a solution to the decline of tablt yop rpgs. It is a good or bad solution hard to say at least for me too early imo. Let's be honest most new editions are to fix the rules and to make a buck. No company is going to implement the process of creating a new edition without wanting to make money. It kind of defeats the purpose imo. Every company wants to make a profit anyway possible. Paizo, WW, Wotc and beleive it or not even PB. As much as posters seem to want to put PB on a pedastal above the other rpg companies.

I get what your saying about the 3.5 books. It dies suck once they stop publishing an edition you have invested money in yet like everything else it's the risk you take when you buy a product. Gone are the says where a company just stays with one product forever and never changes. PB and a few othr companies are the exception not the rule. In the end it's all about wanting to have a profitable company. Even say when you have something like Pathfinder it may not exaclty be a win-win solution either. Ever since I bought Pathfinder I barely look at my 3.5. books anymore. I sold some of them off because of that. With the Pathfinder products all the rules have been converted over already. Could I use a monster from MM3 of course. But why would I when I can use a similar monster from the Pathfinder Besitirary 2 without having to convert it over. So MM# gathers dust on my shelf. Another problem with keeping the game backwars compitable is that some gamers wonder if its' worth buying the slightly updated product. Over at my FLGS their is two groups who like 3.5 refuse to switch over to PF because it feels to similar to 3.5. Chaosium is releasing a 7E of Call of Cthuluhu but it's going to basically be a rehash of the previous edition with a few new rules changes. Great for people who have alot of the older books yet not so great because why would I buy 7E if it over me nothing new over the 6.5 version. Chaosium is asking me to fork over aboput 40-45$ on a product that really offers me nothing really new over the previuos edition.

You do run the rsik of alination some of the older fans when making a new edition yet you also run the risk of losing profit froma backwards compaitable edition because it;s too similar to the previous product. Personally I would like to see a new edition one that is a simpler easier one to use. I know I'm a heretic for wanting to make my playing and GMing experience easuer go figure. Or if not a new edition one that keeps most of the rules but cleans up the rest of the system. So far no good reason has been given for releasing a core rule book beyond Kevins sheer stubbernous and refusal to do so which to me is not a good reason .

[Colt47]

I do like some of the things that Dungeons and Dragons has been doing to try and introduce new players to the world of table top RPGs, and it would be helpful if somehow Palladium could also reach out to newer players.