Errata (and or nits) with with Robotech®: The Masters Saga

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Maybe the third time will be the charm. How's about we try and not get this thread locked like the previous two? This is, after all, for Palladium's benefit to show where editing went wrong.

[taalismn]

What is needed is to distill/compile the most relevant questions/nits/ and answers from the previous threads...such as "what's the value for X under the listing for the _____? There's none listed...", etc...

[jedi078]

I asked about the sniper MOS mentioned in the Tactical Corps OCC's.....never got an answer tho.

I made a Sniper MOS, so it doesn't matter to me but others might want the Sniper MOS as intended for the book.

[Scorpion Leader]

Yah there is no Sniper MOS just the skill. Add the the skill to any OCC or MOS that can take it and you've got youself a sniper.
However you could just add the skill to the guerrilla warfare specialist to make it a sniper mos or i'd make up the mos and give it the following skills: sniper,camoflage,concealment,detact concealment & prowl for starts.

For those who thought the Tomhawk/Excalibur Partical Beam Cannons have too great of a range; first remember the US Military has been working on such a weapon and lasers that are etheir ground based, space base, and most importantly and prehaps the best example to relate to the RPG, an airborne system(the Star Wars initive) for knocking out missiles(some test have been successful), that fire a beam at around such a range I believe.

However to balance its range with other weapons of the same type presented in the RPG (Zent,VHT-1) I'd go with the original range presented in the original RPG of TWO (2) Miles. This would bring it in line with the other particle beams in the game. Oddly enough its the Tomhawk/Excalibur that got this odd Range change in the NEW RPG, The range for the main gun on the VHT-1 Spartas hover tank remained the same between the old and new Rpg. The Reason for the change unknown?

oh and one of these days i'll get around to posting the Parachute skill from Rifts for use in Robotech seeing that a number of the ASC units are Airborne units but don't have this skill listed or pilot jet pack for that manner. i was going to postit before but then we got locked with the first Masters nits & now the second.

[Scorpion Leader]

Okay finally here it is boys straight from Rifts ultimate edition:

Parachuting: 40%+5% per level.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Just found this online a few minutes ago. Seems the Tactical Environment Pack should look slightly different according to this drawing.

Tactical Environment Pack

Then there is the fact the Recon Jump Pack entry/artwork is still missing.

[ESalter]

The impression I get from the essays at the beginning of the book is that the Southern Cross's weapons were designed mainly for peacekeeping since the UEG didn't expect to be attacked by aliens. This is incredible, seeing how the Earth had just been attacked a few years before, and the formation of the REF was due to the expectation of a new attack.

The Logan's description says it was "forced into an air superiority role it was never intended for." If the Logan wasn't built for air superiority, why was it used for such a purpose?

The Ajax should have coaxial rotors. In the picture, the forward blade is above its neighbor, and each blade is its neighbors' opposite. Also, the forearm engines face forward in fighter and helicopter modes.

The LP-10 law enforcement side arm can do over a thousand points of damage with a single shot. A typical human being probably has less than thirty hit points. It is unbelievable that a standard issue police weapon would be so destructive.

[Tiree]

I was looking at the ATAC OCC, and came across this little bit under their skills: MECT: Ground Veritechs (All)

Now would you consider the Cyclone and Silverback part of this? Or is it strictly the Hovertank and Myrmidon(sp?)? And if you do consider the Cyclone and Silverback as part of it, would you break the MECT's down as if they were separate skills, or create a new combined skill that reflects it? Then of course, if there is a combined skill would you let any character pick that one up?

[jaymz]

Persoanlly I would seperate Cyclones as one, Silverbakcs as another and hovertanks as another. Why? Because I woudl seeit like RC-E in Rifts. It gives you the bonus in a LINE of mecha not ALL mecha. Cyclones and Silverbacks aren;t on earth so tehr is no reaon for them to seperate them in that boko.

[Tiree]

For the most part I agree with you. But I would take it one step further and say that it should be Hovertanks and Cyclones/Silverback as the Silverback was made from Cyclone parts and technology. Nice thing about the new system is that even if you disagree with that. The Pilot of a vehicle who doesn't have an MECT still does fairly well.

But right now, my interpretation goes like this for the MECT's: Valkyrie, UEEF Destroids, Hovertanks, AGACS, Logan, ASC Battloids, ASC Power Armor, Cyclones, Silverback, Alpha, Beta, REF Destroids (this covers the non-transformable Condor), Bioroids (This covers the Bioroid Interceptor), Zent Battlepods, Zent Power Armor (This covers the Bioroid Interceptor)

With the idea that anything transformable needs to have its own MECT. While non Transformable is based on the Military Design: UEEF, REF, ASC, Zent, Masters, Invid, Haydonite, EBSIS, etc...

[jaymz]

I woudl say the Silverback woudl be similar in function as hte MODAT/Hargun/Garland were supposed to be only i abuggy mode ratehr than big cycle mode...

[jedi078]

As it pertains to MECT this is how I do it in my games.

Each specific veritech type (VF-1, Alpha, Beta etc) would need their own MECT.

The -04 series Destriods would all fall under one MECT as well, but for the specialization (that extra +1X% to piloting) will require a separate skill for each type. The MBR-07 is a separate MECT.

ASC Battloids will be one MECT since all the units have the same basic controls, but like the Destriods specialization will require a separate skill for each type. The same applies to ASC PA units.

MECT: Cyclone would fit the bill for any Cyclone; the Silverback (I prefer to call it the Hurricane) is a separate MECT.

The Bioroid interceptor has two models in my games, one with a conventional battloid cockpit, and the other with a Tyrolean Bioroid cockpit meant for Tyrolean pilots in the UEEF. The big difference is that the biorids with Tyrolean cockpit have auto doge in all mode, as do all Robotech Master Bioroids.

As it pertains to piloting there is some cross pollination. A VT pilot can pilot a battloid or Destriod. A Destriod or battloid pilot can operate a veritech in battloid mode. Likewise an ASC PA pilot can pilot a Cyclone in battloid mode. BUT to pilot either mecha in their vehicle form would require Pilot jet or pilot auto respectively. I have also made it a pre-requisite for veritech pilots to have the piloting skill for the vehicle mode of the veritech. So in order to pick up pilot Cyclone you would need pilot motorcycle, to pilot a Silverback/Hurricane you would need pilot auto. I have made a few changes to the OCC’s so VT pilot don’t have to pick the pre-req skill.

[Chris0013]

No entry for the Jungle Division....it is mentioned under the Cold Division.

[rem1093]

why are there no bonuses for any of the ASC aircraft.

[Arnie100]

Why are ASC small arms more powerful then EF small arms? And do ASC weapons run on Protoculture?

[Tiree]

I took a different approach to this concept, and decided that weapons could be run with either a lower capacity conventional energy pack, or a higher capacity protoculture pack. Some weapons can only use one or the other, but that wasn't all that common really. A good example of this is actually the Gallant Rifle itself. I had to determine just how many types of power pack I would be dealing with in any given setting, and then work with that. I then went through, and using 1 Mj = 1D4 MDC = 4 potential points of damage, literally assigned new stats to EVERYTHING. Took me three freaking days, and encompasses everything from the ASC and UEEF books, but of course only a few things from the UEDF book. I had to fudge a few minor things here and there, but in the end I ended up with exactly what I wanted for stats, which was as close to the books as humanly possible. Gah, it was a monster of a chore too, let me tell you. Each pack had to hold X Mj of power, and therefore each weapon had to use a certain amount to get the result I wanted, and I had to work it so I would more or less end up with 0 Mj at the same time I ended up with XX shots per weapon, for ALL of the damn weapons. GRRRR!!!!!! So yes, this was essentially a case of my inner nerd peeking out.

So did you end up putting it through a spreadsheet?

That's what I am doing with OCC's and MOS's.

[Tiree]

More insane skill questions:

TC: Navy Division has the skill: Pilot Boats. TSC has the skills: Boats: Motor & Hydrofoil, Boats: Paddle/Canoe Types, Boats: Sail Types

Question: Do they get all those skills, or one in particular, or a choice? I'm leaning toward Motor & Hydrofoil. Now just to put it into context, they also get Pilot: Warships & Patrol Boats (why there are so many different types is beyond me, I would have gone with at most: Non Powered (Paddle and Sail), Small, Medium, and Large (all powered covering Military and non-Military craft))

[keir451]

Why the reduction in starship sublight speeds and weapon ranges? Since when does a ship with AG need to "accelerate for three days" to get to .003 of light? If their tech is so superior then they should be able to do .30 of light with relative ease.
Since when did the secondary particle cannons on the mother ship only have a range of 60,000 mi. (down from the "old" range of 100,000 mi.).
I actually like the new weapons and am generally accepting of the new armor, and some of the mecha upgrades.

[Sir_Nytehawk357]

Ok The Ajax says it can mount 1000 lbs of ordnance per Hard point, how many missiles is that I can't find weights for missiles anywhere, what am I missing

[glitterboy2098]

Why the reduction in starship sublight speeds and weapon ranges? Since when does a ship with AG need to "accelerate for three days" to get to .003 of light? If their tech is so superior then they should be able to do .30 of light with relative ease..

actually, this is roughly .34 gravities of accelleration. to get a ship that size to accell that fast indicates some powerful drives already. remember, these are ships the size of a small moon. superior tech governs drive size, it's mass that governs how well those drives accell a ship.

besides, they were designed with fold drives. they don't need to be high accell in sublight since they can just fold anywhere they want to go, and a third of a gravity is sufficent for orbital manuvering and in system manuvering. i mean, they're self-sufficent cities in space. its not like they need to go anywhere fast.

[keir451]

Why the reduction in starship sublight speeds and weapon ranges? Since when does a ship with AG need to "accelerate for three days" to get to .003 of light? If their tech is so superior then they should be able to do .30 of light with relative ease..

actually, this is roughly .34 gravities of accelleration. to get a ship that size to accell that fast indicates some powerful drives already. remember, these are ships the size of a small moon. superior tech governs drive size, it's mass that governs how well those drives accell a ship.

besides, they were designed with fold drives. they don't need to be high accell in sublight since they can just fold anywhere they want to go, and a third of a gravity is sufficent for orbital manuvering and in system manuvering. i mean, they're self-sufficent cities in space. its not like they need to go anywhere fast.

Yes, but they still need to be well outside of the realtive gravity wells of their solar system before going to fold (remember the SDF-1?)
and they're also hideously powerful warships as well, so speed and manueverability are also important.

[jaymz]

Why the reduction in starship sublight speeds and weapon ranges? Since when does a ship with AG need to "accelerate for three days" to get to .003 of light? If their tech is so superior then they should be able to do .30 of light with relative ease..

actually, this is roughly .34 gravities of accelleration. to get a ship that size to accell that fast indicates some powerful drives already. remember, these are ships the size of a small moon. superior tech governs drive size, it's mass that governs how well those drives accell a ship.

besides, they were designed with fold drives. they don't need to be high accell in sublight since they can just fold anywhere they want to go, and a third of a gravity is sufficent for orbital manuvering and in system manuvering. i mean, they're self-sufficent cities in space. its not like they need to go anywhere fast.

Yes, but they still need to be well outside of the realtive gravity wells of their solar system before going to fold (remember the SDF-1?)
and they're also hideously powerful warships as well, so speed and manueverability are also important.

My understanding was they had to be away form teh earth as in a lagrange point or so or beyond the moon to execute a fold, not out of hte solar system. The Zentraedi certainly had no issues Folding while in the solar system why would hte SDF-1 which is supposed to be a much more capable ship?

[keir451]

Why the reduction in starship sublight speeds and weapon ranges? Since when does a ship with AG need to "accelerate for three days" to get to .003 of light? If their tech is so superior then they should be able to do .30 of light with relative ease..

actually, this is roughly .34 gravities of accelleration. to get a ship that size to accell that fast indicates some powerful drives already. remember, these are ships the size of a small moon. superior tech governs drive size, it's mass that governs how well those drives accell a ship.

besides, they were designed with fold drives. they don't need to be high accell in sublight since they can just fold anywhere they want to go, and a third of a gravity is sufficent for orbital manuvering and in system manuvering. i mean, they're self-sufficent cities in space. its not like they need to go anywhere fast.

Yes, but they still need to be well outside of the realtive gravity wells of their solar system before going to fold (remember the SDF-1?)
and they're also hideously powerful warships as well, so speed and manueverability are also important.

My understanding was they had to be away form teh earth as in a lagrange point or so or beyond the moon to execute a fold, not out of hte solar system. The Zentraedi certainly had no issues Folding while in the solar system why would hte SDF-1 which is supposed to be a much more capable ship?

Yer right, I was mis-referencing a different concept. Yes they only need to be well outside of a planetary gravity well.
Part of my question comes from the concept of AG, if the Masters are advanced enought o create a gravity filed inside a ship AND nullify the effects of being *under thrust* or even lift a ship off of a planet w/ out employing massive thruster arrays, then one would think they could counter (not negate) the ship's mass effectively enough to achieve speeds approaching that of light (the aforementioned .30 of light) not the .003 of light. Fold drives are meant for interstellar travel not insystem travel, why design a ship that takes days to travel between two in system planets when you have the ability to design a ship that can do it in mere hours or even minutes?

[glitterboy2098]

hey, a third of a g is amazing if you can sustain it. the moon in a day, mars in three weeks, even pluto in 6 months to a year, depending on course. which means it fits what we see in the show. if the SDF-1 could do even 1% of light, they'd have gotten home in days or weeks, not the year plus it took. even with detours.

in southern cross and new gen, we don't see much to refute this. even in shadow chronicles we see ships moving pretty slowly, and using their fold drives to get as close to the destination as possible before going sublight. even when there isn't a good tactical reason to do so. this indicates that their sublight isn't all that hot.
their fighters are certainly better at accell..but they have limited powered range in space, being small and reaction drive propelled. so long run a big ship can out distance them, but short run fighters will always overhaul a capship.

[keir451]

hey, a third of a g is amazing if you can sustain it. the moon in a day, mars in three weeks, even pluto in 6 months to a year, depending on course. which means it fits what we see in the show. if the SDF-1 could do even 1% of light, they'd have gotten home in days or weeks, not the year plus it took. even with detours.

in southern cross and new gen, we don't see much to refute this. even in shadow chronicles we see ships moving pretty slowly, and using their fold drives to get as close to the destination as possible before going sublight. even when there isn't a good tactical reason to do so. this indicates that their sublight isn't all that hot.
their fighters are certainly better at accell..but they have limited powered range in space, being small and reaction drive propelled. so long run a big ship can out distance them, but short run fighters will always overhaul a capship.

Valid observations, but I might argue that the SDF-1 was using tech that was still not completely understood at the time. Where as the Masters only slowed to the sub-sublight speeds (.10 or less) just to bring the ships into "parking orbit" and launch their fighters and smaller non sublight capable vessels. Yes they used their fold systems to come in close to a planet, but the new speeds would mean hours of travel time just to come into orbital range and it appeared to me that the Zentran ships weren't that slow, it was only a matter of minutes for the first Zent vessels to come into range of the SDF-1's guns even if we apply the new ranges of only 60,000 mi. that suggest to me that they were going faster than mere "mach speeds" in space. The new standards make the Masters barely more advanced than us in certain areas, which seems completely at odds with the image of them being an "older and more advanced race". We're not talking light huggers here (vessels that accelerate constantly to reach .99 of light and have no internal gravity control except what comes from their thrust). The new books say that the SC wasn't using the "best" of the RT gear their gear was different (some say second hand or even scavenged at best) and according to Shadow Chronicles video footage Vince's ship was moving at speeds faster than .003 of light as it took them less than an hour to reach the SDF-3 after exiting the black hole (after the McNichols drive collapsed) and only a few minutes to reach the moon after defolding so that would seem (to me ar least) to contradict the new speed values.

[jaymz]

hey, a third of a g is amazing if you can sustain it. the moon in a day, mars in three weeks, even pluto in 6 months to a year, depending on course. which means it fits what we see in the show. if the SDF-1 could do even 1% of light, they'd have gotten home in days or weeks, not the year plus it took. even with detours.

in southern cross and new gen, we don't see much to refute this. even in shadow chronicles we see ships moving pretty slowly, and using their fold drives to get as close to the destination as possible before going sublight. even when there isn't a good tactical reason to do so. this indicates that their sublight isn't all that hot.
their fighters are certainly better at accell..but they have limited powered range in space, being small and reaction drive propelled. so long run a big ship can out distance them, but short run fighters will always overhaul a capship.

Valid observations, but I might argue that the SDF-1 was using tech that was still not completely understood at the time. Where as the Masters only slowed to the sub-sublight speeds (.10 or less) just to bring the ships into "parking orbit" and launch their fighters and smaller non sublight capable vessels. Yes they used their fold systems to come in close to a planet, but the new speeds would mean hours of travel time just to come into orbital range and it appeared to me that the Zentran ships weren't that slow, it was only a matter of minutes for the first Zent vessels to come into range of the SDF-1's guns even if we apply the new ranges of only 60,000 mi. that suggest to me that they were going faster than mere "mach speeds" in space. The new standards make the Masters barely more advanced than us in certain areas, which seems completely at odds with the image of them being an "older and more advanced race". We're not talking light huggers here (vessels that accelerate constantly to reach .99 of light and have no internal gravity control except what comes from their thrust). The new books say that the SC wasn't using the "best" of the RT gear their gear was different (some say second hand or even scavenged at best) and according to Shadow Chronicles video footage Vince's ship was moving at speeds faster than .003 of light as it took them less than an hour to reach the SDF-3 after exiting the black hole (after the McNichols drive collapsed) and only a few minutes to reach the moon after defolding so that would seem (to me ar least) to contradict the new speed values.

I woudl say that yes the speeds for straight line travel should be higher but I dont htink they woudl get tot eh speeds you are thinking. I think accelerating for a few hours should get them up to very high velocities but that woudl be straight line only. Any manuevering for combat would have to be done at MUCH slower velocities.

[keir451]

I would disagree on that. Based on the idea that; If the Master ships gravity control systems are powerfull enough to negate the pull of a planets gravity so they can lift not just one, but two ships, then they can nullify an g-forces or stress from combat manuvers (not that the Mother ships needed to manuever fast due to their defense shields) but needed to slow down to release the smaller ships as they'd be shredded by trying to exit during fold or sublight travel. Now admittedly that makes a better case for the slower speeds in the new books, but the higher speeds make more sense to me from the perspective of quicker in system travel esp. in terms of military vessels- You want to get to your destination FAST so as to reduce the amount of time an enemy has to engage you, the slower speeds make the ships big fat targets in space, and the reduce weapons ranges make the ships even more vulnerable to enemy forces. Now you might say "That's what hull armor is for." but I also think the new MDC for some of the "old" REF ships in the new books is also alcking, BUT that's a different *gripe* for another time.
(This isn't one of my rants about "Physics in Palladium systems", just that the old stats and ranges seemed MORE in keeping with the animation than the new ranges and stats. )

P.S. Didn't the SDF-1 need to use it's Terran built thrusters initially just to leave Earth because they'd lost their AG pods? And again as they left Pluto? That could explain their taking so long to reach Earth on top of delays.

[jaymz]

I would disagree on that. Based on the idea that; If the Master ships gravity control systems are powerfull enough to negate the pull of a planets gravity so they can lift not just one, but two ships, then they can nullify an g-forces or stress from combat manuvers (not that the Mother ships needed to manuever fast due to their defense shields) but needed to slow down to release the smaller ships as they'd be shredded by trying to exit during fold or sublight travel. Now admittedly that makes a better case for the slower speeds in the new books, but the higher speeds make more sense to me from the perspective of quicker in system travel esp. in terms of military vessels- You want to get to your destination FAST so as to reduce the amount of time an enemy has to engage you, the slower speeds make the ships big fat targets in space, and the reduce weapons ranges make the ships even more vulnerable to enemy forces. Now you might say "That's what hull armor is for." but I also think the new MDC for some of the "old" REF ships in the new books is also alcking, BUT that's a different *gripe* for another time.
(This isn't one of my rants about "Physics in Palladium systems", just that the old stats and ranges seemed MORE in keeping with the animation than the new ranges and stats. )

I will be the first to agree that the MDC values were castrated...but
the speeds....the way the fold system works there is no need whatsoever for sublight the way you want it. You want to get to pluto fast ok get there almost instantly by performing a fold

[keir451]

I would disagree on that. Based on the idea that; If the Master ships gravity control systems are powerfull enough to negate the pull of a planets gravity so they can lift not just one, but two ships, then they can nullify an g-forces or stress from combat manuvers (not that the Mother ships needed to manuever fast due to their defense shields) but needed to slow down to release the smaller ships as they'd be shredded by trying to exit during fold or sublight travel. Now admittedly that makes a better case for the slower speeds in the new books, but the higher speeds make more sense to me from the perspective of quicker in system travel esp. in terms of military vessels- You want to get to your destination FAST so as to reduce the amount of time an enemy has to engage you, the slower speeds make the ships big fat targets in space, and the reduce weapons ranges make the ships even more vulnerable to enemy forces. Now you might say "That's what hull armor is for." but I also think the new MDC for some of the "old" REF ships in the new books is also alcking, BUT that's a different *gripe* for another time.
(This isn't one of my rants about "Physics in Palladium systems", just that the old stats and ranges seemed MORE in keeping with the animation than the new ranges and stats. )

I will be the first to agree that the MDC values were castrated...but
the speeds....the way the fold system works there is no need whatsoever for sublight the way you want it. You want to get to pluto fast ok get there almost instantly by performing a fold

My thought would be "Why waste the massive amounts of energy that a Fold uses for such a short distance, when faster insystem drives are more efficient energy wise?" Besides, what of non -military spacecraft or others that DON'T have a fold system? the time to reach say, Mars would be nearly as cost prohibitive as putting a fold system into such a small ship (presuming it could be done at all). Easier to have faster "real time" drives. BTW, this is FUN!!!

[jaymz]

Well i do it differenlt for my stuff. My way allows for a tipr from Pluto (average distance) to be done in about 4 months which is less than half hte took for hte SDF-1 and you can get o mars within a week. Much faster than the new books to be sure.

[keir451]

Well i do it differenlt for my stuff. My way allows for a tipr from Pluto (average distance) to be done in about 4 months which is less than half hte took for hte SDF-1 and you can get o mars within a week. Much faster than the new books to be sure.

To be sure everyone has their own way, in another setting I've massive starships with the manueverability of fighters due to their use/level of gravity control. I just felt alittle cheated after so many years of playing REF/RT ships w/ sublight speeds as listed in the old books so the "new" speeds seemed cheap to me. Like someone was saying "Oh, they're WAY too fast. There's NO WAY ships that big can be that fast." "We'll lower the speeds and ranges and MDC to make things more ... equal."

[jaymz]

Well i do it differenlt for my stuff. My way allows for a tipr from Pluto (average distance) to be done in about 4 months which is less than half hte took for hte SDF-1 and you can get o mars within a week. Much faster than the new books to be sure.

To be sure everyone has their own way, in another setting I've massive starships with the manueverability of fighters due to their use/level of gravity control. I just felt alittle cheated after so many years of playing REF/RT ships w/ sublight speeds as listed in the old books so the "new" speeds seemed cheap to me. Like someone was saying "Oh, they're WAY too fast. There's NO WAY ships that big can be that fast." "We'll lower the speeds and ranges and MDC to make things more ... equal."

I like the old speeds but used them for again staright line travel and used hte auxiliary engines for combat manuevering. Why? you don then mecha become pointless and left int eh dust almost immediately...thats fien in a caapital ship based game but crappy as hell in ammecha based game

[keir451]

Well i do it differenlt for my stuff. My way allows for a tipr from Pluto (average distance) to be done in about 4 months which is less than half hte took for hte SDF-1 and you can get o mars within a week. Much faster than the new books to be sure.

To be sure everyone has their own way, in another setting I've massive starships with the manueverability of fighters due to their use/level of gravity control. I just felt a little cheated after so many years of playing REF/RT ships w/ sublight speeds as listed in the old books so the "new" speeds seemed cheap to me. Like someone was saying "Oh, they're WAY too fast. There's NO WAY ships that big can be that fast." "We'll lower the speeds and ranges and MDC to make things more ... equal."

I like the old speeds but used them for again staright line travel and used hte auxiliary engines for combat manuevering. Why? you don then mecha become pointless and left int eh dust almost immediately...thats fien in a caapital ship based game but crappy as hell in ammecha based game

I use them for docking manuevers instead of combat, I figure you'd want speed so you've a better chance of evading that massive particle beam they just fired at you (which is traveling at the speed of light BTW ) instead of the slow creep of Mach speed engines trying to shift that much mass nearly instantaneously (y'know the so called combat speed of Palladium of 5 seconds).

[ShadowLogan]

hey, a third of a g is amazing if you can sustain it. the moon in a day, mars in three weeks, even pluto in 6 months to a year, depending on course. which means it fits what we see in the show. if the SDF-1 could do even 1% of light, they'd have gotten home in days or weeks, not the year plus it took. even with detours.

It took them 12-1/2months between Ep1-3 & when they returned to Earth, per dialogue in the briefing Lisa Hayes gave the Council. Actually the show took several detours during the trip in from Pluto (Mars, Ordered away, then to land), but each segment appears to show a reduction in performance (Pluto-Saturn, Saturn-Mars, Mars-Earth w/detours).

If they did cover 20AU in 2 months, then they could have been at Earth within another 2months (actually w/n that time frame they could be on the other side of Saturn's orbit). According to the timeline here, they arrived at Mars 4months after Saturn. Quite a reduction in performance don't you think?

RT.com Quote I made in here: http://www.robotech.com/community/forum ... &forumid=9

[glitterboy2098]

i'm not so sure it's an actual degredation than it is the nessescities of course plotting in orbital mechanics. if you look at this plot, which starts more or less the time the SDF-1 would have started it's trip, a trip from pluto to saturn would be a fairly odd trip to start, but a fairly straight shot as orbits go, with probably a slingshot boost around Neptune along the way. the trip from saturn to mars however would need some major orbital wrangling to pull off, possibly even a trip all the way round the sun while bleeding off velocity to match mars orbits. maybe even a slingshot around jupiter. frankly, the only reason they'd have gone to mars at all is to loot that base, since the orbits to match earth would have taken longer, and presumably they were running short of needed tools and such.

frankly, the most confusing thing to me is why after mars, they suddenly set out and passed through the asteroid belt...unless the asteroid khyron blew away was one one of the outer orbit Near Earth Objects.. its hard ot tell, since visually there would be no difference.

[keir451]

i'm not so sure it's an actual degredation than it is the nessescities of course plotting in orbital mechanics. if you look at this plot, which starts more or less the time the SDF-1 would have started it's trip, a trip from pluto to saturn would be a fairly odd trip to start, but a fairly straight shot as orbits go, with probably a slingshot boost around Neptune along the way. the trip from saturn to mars however would need some major orbital wrangling to pull off, possibly even a trip all the way round the sun while bleeding off velocity to match mars orbits. maybe even a slingshot around jupiter. frankly, the only reason they'd have gone to mars at all is to loot that base, since the orbits to match earth would have taken longer, and presumably they were running short of needed tools and such.

frankly, the most confusing thing to me is why after mars, they suddenly set out and passed through the asteroid belt...unless the asteroid khyron blew away was one one of the outer orbit Near Earth Objects.. its hard ot tell, since visually there would be no difference.

GAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!! MATH, NOOOOOO!!!!!! And here I thought I was being "physics heavy". Anyone can find a reason to explain the duration of the SDF-1's voyage home, be it GM fiat or real reasons. I just felt that the new speed listings didn't "fit" with my notions of the starships as they were originally printed, basically I liked the old rules better in some respects and felt the change wasn't needed and that it took away from the "feel" of the game enviroment (ships in space, sci-fi, futurism, etc.). We could already design ships with speeds in the range of .003 of light (if we truly put our minds to it) that's why I like ships that do .30 of light or better as it make the sci-fi part MORE interesting.

[glitterboy2098]

the problem is that if you can hit 30% in any reasonable time peroid (reasonable being "less than a couple of months of thrust"), you don't need all that fancy math. you can just point to a spot and go, since you have the delta V. if the SDF-1 or others could hit 30% in onky a couple hours, they wouldn't have needed to take a year, or even loot mars. they'd have just fired up their drive and pulled into earth orbit a dozen hours later.

at .03%, and more importantly at about 3 meters a second per second accell, the depicted odessey of the SDF-1 actually makes sense.

of course, you could look at this from a gameplay perspective too. the 60,000 mile (96,000km) range the mothership's main gun sounds impressive, but that only about a third of a light second.

so consider. at .003% of light, you'd have 10666 seconds to fire before the enemy passes through your range. about 2 hours. plenty of time to bellow orders, fire multiple times, even destroy a ship.
at 30%, the enemy would pass through your range in 1 second, not even enough time for the human mind to think "fire", much less say it and the crew press the right buttons. and as those are the long range guns, battles would have to be completely computer controlled to be able to even get shots off at all. human thought processes couldn't even enter into the tactical planning, since they can't keep up with the rate of information change involved.

frankly, i'll stick to captains bellowing orders to the crewstations while two reletively slowly moving fleets manuver around in each others ranges. much cooler (and closer to the canon) than battles occuring under computer control at the blink of an eye.

[keir451]

the problem is that if you can hit 30% in any reasonable time peroid (reasonable being "less than a couple of months of thrust"), you don't need all that fancy math. you can just point to a spot and go, since you have the delta V. if the SDF-1 or others could hit 30% in onky a couple hours, they wouldn't have needed to take a year, or even loot mars. they'd have just fired up their drive and pulled into earth orbit a dozen hours later.

at .03%, and more importantly at about 3 meters a second per second accell, the depicted odessey of the SDF-1 actually makes sense.

of course, you could look at this from a gameplay perspective too. the 60,000 mile (96,000km) range the mothership's main gun sounds impressive, but that only about a third of a light second.

so consider. at .003% of light, you'd have 10666 seconds to fire before the enemy passes through your range. about 2 hours. plenty of time to bellow orders, fire multiple times, even destroy a ship.
at 30%, the enemy would pass through your range in 1 second, not even enough time for the human mind to think "fire", much less say it and the crew press the right buttons. and as those are the long range guns, battles would have to be completely computer controlled to be able to even get shots off at all. human thought processes couldn't even enter into the tactical planning, since they can't keep up with the rate of information change involved.

frankly, i'll stick to captains bellowing orders to the crewstations while two reletively slowly moving fleets manuver around in each others ranges. much cooler (and closer to the canon) than battles occuring under computer control at the blink of an eye.

That's cool. I can respect your opinion, and (even tho' math is NOT my friend, I quite frankly suck at it ) I understand the math involved and see that what you say makes sense, except ( ) I thought the SDF-1 was only capable of about .10-.15 of light originally? The .30 was from the Master's Mother ships (IIRC). Wouldn't the SDF-1 need to take into account space debris, etc. in their calculations for traveling to Earth? To be realistic about it, even with all that armor wouldn't they suffer from alot of micro meteor impacts and possibly some hull ruptures in certain places? That and plotting planetary orbit windows could also affect their travel time. They wouldn't want to miss Earth because their trajectory was off. "Sir, We've arrived at Earth, but..." "But what Vanessa?" "Umm we seem to have miscalculated Earth's orbital path, Sir. It's on the opposite side of the Sun from us, Sir." "Sound of Cpt. Gloval hitting his head against the bulkhead." And yes, I know I may have just proven your point for slower traveling speed.

[ShadowLogan]

i'm not so sure it's an actual degredation than it is the nessescities of course plotting in orbital mechanics.

Well we do know the engines where damaged between Saturn and Mars from dialogue, but that establishes the damage as more recent ("last week" IIRC), well after the Saturn-Pluto leg's implied velocity should have gotten them to Earth/Mars.

To a point I do agree that orbital mechanics will play apart, but the Saturn-Pluto Velocity allows for a relatively straightline approach with the distances involved (1.2-1.4billion km) for the Saturn-Mars leg.

if you look at this plot, which starts more or less the time the SDF-1 would have started it's trip, a trip from pluto to saturn would be a fairly odd trip to start, but a fairly straight shot as orbits go, with probably a slingshot boost around Neptune along the way.

When I looked at this discrepancy in the past I used the JPL Solar System simulator to get the distances (and location) involved between planets for the correct time period. Mars is not behind the Sun viewed from Saturn during the Saturn-Mars leg time period.

frankly, the most confusing thing to me is why after mars, they suddenly set out and passed through the asteroid belt...unless the asteroid khyron blew away was one one of the outer orbit Near Earth Objects.. its hard ot tell, since visually there would be no difference.

The HG timeline puts it as the Asteroid Belt. NEA works, but so would Trojans w/n the confines of the show IIRC.

if the SDF-1 or others could hit 30% in onky a couple hours, they wouldn't have needed to take a year, or even loot mars. they'd have just fired up their drive and pulled into earth orbit a dozen hours later.

While the 1st Ed RPG did allow for starships to have the fraction of c velocities available, they never said how much room it would take to get up to those speeds (IIRC). I always viewed it as good for Inter-Stellar Travel distances, but not Intra-Stellar Travel distances because they needed a lot of room to get up to speed. Other issues also apply when traveling at a fraction of the speed of light.

[Kagashi]

...biorids with Tyrolean cockpit have auto doge in all mode, as do all Robotech Master Bioroids.

@ Masters Bioroids: In addition to them having auto dodge, their armor values should be higher (perhaps not quite double their current printing...but defiantly more than ASC Battloids). They made it a point in the show that everybody was surprised how much damage Bioroids could take and how many direct hits it required to take one out when analyzing a Green Bioroid captured by Dana. To me, that translates into MDC in PB game mechanics. I was disappointed that the MDC values didnt get more of a facelift from the previous version.

[jaymz]

...biorids with Tyrolean cockpit have auto doge in all mode, as do all Robotech Master Bioroids.

@ Masters Bioroids: In addition to them having auto dodge, their armor values should be higher (perhaps not quite double their current printing...but defiantly more than ASC Battloids). They made it a point in the show that everybody was surprised how much damage Bioroids could take and how many direct hits it required to take one out when analyzing a Green Bioroid captured by Dana. To me, that translates into MDC in PB game mechanics. I was disappointed that the MDC values didnt get more of a facelift from the previous version.

MDCs values I think are too high across the board but in relation to teh MDC lift the other two books got in the new incarnation I gotta agree with you there Kaga

[Kagashi]

...biorids with Tyrolean cockpit have auto doge in all mode, as do all Robotech Master Bioroids.

@ Masters Bioroids: In addition to them having auto dodge, their armor values should be higher (perhaps not quite double their current printing...but defiantly more than ASC Battloids). They made it a point in the show that everybody was surprised how much damage Bioroids could take and how many direct hits it required to take one out when analyzing a Green Bioroid captured by Dana. To me, that translates into MDC in PB game mechanics. I was disappointed that the MDC values didnt get more of a facelift from the previous version.

MDCs values I think are too high across the board but in relation to teh MDC lift the other two books got in the new incarnation I gotta agree with you there Kaga

*Nod* Perhaps adjust the Bioriod MDC in relation to Battloids...then divide by 2 across the board?

[jaymz]

...biorids with Tyrolean cockpit have auto doge in all mode, as do all Robotech Master Bioroids.

@ Masters Bioroids: In addition to them having auto dodge, their armor values should be higher (perhaps not quite double their current printing...but defiantly more than ASC Battloids). They made it a point in the show that everybody was surprised how much damage Bioroids could take and how many direct hits it required to take one out when analyzing a Green Bioroid captured by Dana. To me, that translates into MDC in PB game mechanics. I was disappointed that the MDC values didnt get more of a facelift from the previous version.

MDCs values I think are too high across the board but in relation to teh MDC lift the other two books got in the new incarnation I gotta agree with you there Kaga

*Nod* Perhaps adjust the Bioriod MDC in relation to Battloids...then divide by 2 across the board?

Actually I do my own stats altogether so hard to say but for the in game purposes I'd double the green and red bioroids for sure. My biggest issue is more the MDC they giv the veritechs. Why bother even buildin Batttloids and Destrods when the veritechs are as tough and tougher? Don;t get me started on teh weapon damages across the board either.....

[glitterboy2098]

i'm not so sure it's an actual degredation than it is the nessescities of course plotting in orbital mechanics.

Well we do know the engines where damaged between Saturn and Mars from dialogue, but that establishes the damage as more recent ("last week" IIRC), well after the Saturn-Pluto leg's implied velocity should have gotten them to Earth/Mars.
To a point I do agree that orbital mechanics will play apart, but the Saturn-Pluto Velocity allows for a relatively straightline approach with the distances involved (1.2-1.4billion km) for the Saturn-Mars leg.

"reletively" being the main factor. you can't just fly a straight line, you've got to adjust for movement of the target, time spent in flight (even time spent decellerating), and so on. especially if they're trying to conserve fuel by coasting most of the way. (how much remass did they have onboard when they left? who knows. but you'd figure they'd want to save as much as possible)

if you look at this plot, which starts more or less the time the SDF-1 would have started it's trip, a trip from pluto to saturn would be a fairly odd trip to start, but a fairly straight shot as orbits go, with probably a slingshot boost around Neptune along the way.

When I looked at this discrepancy in the past I used the JPL Solar System simulator to get the distances (and location) involved between planets for the correct time period. Mars is not behind the Sun viewed from Saturn during the Saturn-Mars leg time period.

when they left maybe, but given how long it takes them to get there?
it takes them a few months, by the timeline. mars will have moved, and will be behind the sun when they arrive. and would the course take them past other planets (as it looks like it would?), which would complicate things.

frankly, the most confusing thing to me is why after mars, they suddenly set out and passed through the asteroid belt...unless the asteroid khyron blew away was one one of the outer orbit Near Earth Objects.. its hard ot tell, since visually there would be no difference.

The HG timeline puts it as the Asteroid Belt. NEA works, but so would Trojans w/n the confines of the show IIRC.

i'll have to check the charts again,. maybe there were ona minimum energy orbital path to reach earth, which could involve such paths.

if the SDF-1 or others could hit 30% in onky a couple hours, they wouldn't have needed to take a year, or even loot mars. they'd have just fired up their drive and pulled into earth orbit a dozen hours later.

While the 1st Ed RPG did allow for starships to have the fraction of c velocities available, they never said how much room it would take to get up to those speeds (IIRC). I always viewed it as good for Inter-Stellar Travel distances, but not Intra-Stellar Travel distances because they needed a lot of room to get up to speed. Other issues also apply when traveling at a fraction of the speed of light.

[/quote][/quote]
the problem is that at even 1 gravity, you can hit 30%c in only 4 months. and at 30%c, the SDF-1 could have reached earth more or less directly after a couple of days. so they have to be less than 1 gravity. a third of a g, or similar, works pretty good. plus it lets the veritechs and mecha overhaul an accellerating starship, at least on the short term. the ship has longer legs, but fighters could reach it and stop it.

[ShadowLogan]

you've got to adjust for movement of the target, time spent in flight (even time spent decellerating), and so on.

Which is why I said relatively. The Holomen Transfer (being the minimum energy) is very curved, but the higher energy the trajectory becomes the more it will "straigthen" the curve out compared to the Holomen between start/end points.

when they left maybe, but given how long it takes them to get there?

When I looked I placed the distance between the two planets at departure and arrival. So while they both have moved in their orbits around the Sun, I was looking at the distance between them during this period.

i'll have to check the charts again,. maybe there were ona minimum energy orbital path to reach earth, which could involve such paths.

minimum energy transfer is out. Accounting for time between episodes can be problamatic, the HG timeline puts Sara Base at 8months into their voyage from the Space Fold, requring higher energy trajectories for all stages to account for the entire 12-1/2month trip reported by Lisa.

the problem is that at even 1 gravity, you can hit 30%c in only 4 months. and at 30%c, the SDF-1 could have reached earth more or less directly after a couple of days.

Are you considering how much distance is covered getting up to to that speed? At 1G it allows for Earth-Pluto trips to be done in well under a month (2wks IIRC a non-fiction book, I'll double check it later today). So if it takes 4months to get up to .3c, with a Earth-Pluto distance covered in under a month it would seem to support the idea that they need a lot of room to get up to % of c.