Incapacitating Foes Instead of Killing Them

[Nekira Sudacne]

I ran into a situation last night in my TMNT game where my players got into a bar fight. They wanted to knock the NPCs they were fighting out or make them run but not kill them. I know there's a mechanic for knockout/stun in the game, but that's a called strike that my players won't receive for several more levels. I couldn't find any rules for dealing non-lethal damamge instead of lethal damage. I felt like putting the NPCs in comas and then calling an ambulance was not the way I wanted to go. If you've dealt with this type of issue in your games before, how have you handled it?

It really is extremely difficult to knock them out.

The problem is in assuming that every person is going to /want/ to fight until their HP and SDC runs out. Frankly, after you beat up on someone for a while, they will surrender/run away if it's clear they're getting the worst of it.

[mobuttu]

The problem is in assuming that every person is going to /want/ to fight until their HP and SDC runs out. Frankly, after you beat up on someone for a while, they will surrender/run away if it's clear they're getting the worst of it.

I second Nekira here. They could also use some kind of entanglement.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The problem is in assuming that every person is going to /want/ to fight until their HP and SDC runs out. Frankly, after you beat up on someone for a while, they will surrender/run away if it's clear they're getting the worst of it.

This sounds like a great approach. The complicator is that my players are about +20 damage to due extraordinary PSs and have 4 attacks. Against the barfighters, one hit removed almost all SDC, second hit removes about 50% of the HPs, and the third hit drops them below 0 HP. If they're not careful, they can easily kill someone in one round before they really have a chance to run.

If they're doing 20 damage on a punch, how long do you think it'd take

One punch and suddenly the guy falls over and screams "ALLRIGHT ALLRIGHT!"

Also have realistic concequences for that kind of damage. I mean good greif 20 damage is more than a normal man can do with a Warhammer. Discribe vividly how they are shattering bones and damaging internal organs. Seriously. One punch from someone like that, not only do they win the fight, they ALSO get a reputation for not being someone to **** with. Seriously, at this point you should have everyone go dead quiet when they walk into a bar.

[The Beast]

You could just ignore the rules when the PCs are fighting a bunch of nobodies in a bar, and use the rules when fighting the main bad guys.

[Rimmer]

I generally rule for every point a single hit does in sdc over the PE attribute there is a 10% chance of stun.

[RogueSensei]

If the situation is appropriate, we've used a house rule (at least I think it's a house rule) where if a single hit does more than half of your SDC base in damage, there's a chance that you're KO/Stunned. I think we used save v coma as a baseline (been a while since we used this one).

There's also the Pin/Incapacitate option.

Then as someone else mentioned you've got the entangle/hold option. Even untrained, a person could put a rudimentary "sleeper hold" on someone and just hang on till they pass out.

Even if you can't get that one-shot KO, it's likely that the guy is going to go down long before he goes into a coma.

[Johnathan]

Also, take a look at some of the Martial Arts in N&SS and Mystic China. A few of those martial arts have a LOT more descriptive ways of dealing with opponents (let's face it, when you're dealing with Martial Arts, ya kinda hafta be descriptive sometimes). All of them have a "Modifier to Attacks" in the martial arts. In some of those cases, "Knock Out/Stun" is a modifier to your PC's attacks.

Looking at the Martial Arts abilities and the reading of how these "Modifier to Attacks" options works, it basically means that your PC's are capable of calling a strike in a manner that uses one of these Modifiers.

What this basically means, at least in my opinion, is that your PC's could call for a Knock-Out/Stun attack. If it lands, BAM, your NPC's are knocked silly and can not attack at all. When a combat style moves to the "Knock-Out/Stun on a Natural 18" (Or if you have boxing), then that just shows a "natural" inclination to perform the attack without having to call it. It basically means that your PC's combat abilities have progressed to a point where if they happen to roll a natural 18 or higher, the opponent is automatically KO'd.

You could use this method a lot of ways really... Just take a look at what's available to your PC's.

[Thinyser]

You could just ignore the rules when the PCs are fighting a bunch of nobodies in a bar, and use the rules when fighting the main bad guys.

HAHAHA at first read though I saw that as "noodies in a bar"! Better get my mind out of the guttter

[Killer Cyborg]

If you want to house-rule in some Knockout rules, my only suggestion would be to come up with something that emphasizes a difference between SDC and HP.
Like a person has to save (or roll with punch, or something) to avoid being KOed when they run out of SDC and start taking HP damage, and every hit thereafter (even if for only 1 points of damage).

[Nekira Sudacne]

If you watch MMA or even boxing and I am have done some boxing training myself, it is very easy to knock someone out. Take there SDC 70 + Hit Points 30 =100 Total, say your plus +20 Str guy punches Joe bar goer and does 30 damage. Sure take it off there sdc but now only has a total of 70 SDC & Hit points have them roll under 70 on d100, if they fail to roll under then they are stunned or KO'd. And then the less SDC and Hit Points they have the less likely they are going to stay up. I understand that Palladium is trying to make it hard to KO or Stun some one but it is not. Especially if it is a trained fighter hitting someone untrained.

Not terribly difficult to knock someone out if you hit them juuust right. Two trained fighters locked in combat trying and one of them is trying to KILL you, it's a lot harder.

And palladium was never intended to handle a trained fighter vs an untrained one.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you watch MMA or even boxing and I am have done some boxing training myself, it is very easy to knock someone out. Take there SDC 70 + Hit Points 30 =100 Total, say your plus +20 Str guy punches Joe bar goer and does 30 damage. Sure take it off there sdc but now only has a total of 70 SDC & Hit points have them roll under 70 on d100, if they fail to roll under then they are stunned or KO'd. And then the less SDC and Hit Points they have the less likely they are going to stay up. I understand that Palladium is trying to make it hard to KO or Stun some one but it is not. Especially if it is a trained fighter hitting someone untrained.

Hm. I've watched the UFC quite a bit, and there are more TKOs and tap-outs than KOs, last I saw.
I'm guessing that Boxing is the same way.

If trained fighters could KO people on demand, I think they'd do it more often.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yeah but from what I remember of his question it was not trained fighters, it was regular bar trash. I agree though that yes two trained fighters is harder to KO someone, but there are examples of that in professional boxing, MMA and a couple others. But I guess that would be the equivalent of a critical strike or some such.

Boxing goes for 5-10 minute rounds for a reason: Two trained fighters just KOing the other is incredibly difficult because they both know how it's done and thus both constantly guard aginst it. Now think about that in palladium turns.

Two mid level fighters with HTH: Expert and Boxing have 6 attacks per melee. a melee round is 15 seconds. So a 10 minute boxing round is a total of 240 attacks in palladium. And your still technically unlikely to succeed, because as KC pointed out, it's far more common to get a TKO (depeleting all the other guys SDC), or the other guy gives up (Just can't take it anymore) before you actually land a knockout punch.

Technically, by that standard, it's incredibly easy for two trained, prepared fighters to knock each-other out because statistically one will roll a natural 20 well before 240 attacks have passed.

[Killer Cyborg]

5-10 mins....are you sure u are watching boxing. Boxing is three min rounds with a minute interval between rounds. And if you watch the greats they KO'ed alot of people. But again I say this is not pro's verses Pro this is Pro's verses bar trash. I remember when I started training in boxing and actually stepped in the ring with one of the coaches. I had trained for six months 3 times a week and he had been doing for years and had some provincial wins in the minors. I could barely see where, when and how his punches where coming in. So a trained fighter vs an untrained fighter could beat easily knock someone out. That is the whole point of this discussion from what I remember.

UFC is 5 min round I believe and that is more technical fighting then just standing and punching. As I sure you know MMA is just that MMA. Punching, Kicking, Grapples, holds and submissions. A majority of the time is spent on the mat trying to gain full mount position(always kinda thought that was a funny name), so that they can unleash hell on there target.

And a TKO is when the Referee determines that it is to dangerous for one of the competitors to continue, whether it be a cut face or he/she(cause let be truthful there are women fighters) is not cognisant of the face pounding they are receiving. They are usually stumbling around barely able to stand.

I know my fighting, I have fought in bars, rings and just with friends and have wiped out on my mountain bike and knocked myself out. I am very aware of what it takes to knock someone out or what a TKO is also. I would also mention that I do not fight anymore since I grew up and am not such a cool teenager anymore . There are unfortunately lots of vids on Youtube showing non professionals fighting, pro vs non and pro vs pro that demonstrate what I am talking about.

The thing is, we've all seen knockout videos and clips, and professional fights where somebody was knocked out.
That's not the issue.
The issue is how often a KO happens relative to how often somebody is punched/kicked in the head.

Remember that 90 second Tyson fight from way back?
How often does THAT happen?

Tank Abbot KOed John Matua in 18 seconds in UFC 6, but his next fight was won by TKO, and his last fight of the day lasted 17 minutes with no KO before Oleg choked him out.
1 KO out of 3 matches.
1 KO out of 18 minutes of fighting (72 melee rounds).

Gentleman Jim KOed John L. Sullivan, but not until the twenty-first round.
Sullivan himself went on tour coast to coast, taking on all comers. He KOed 11 men... out of 195 fights.

KOs do happen, and they're not exactly rare, but even professional boxers can't KO somebody on command.
If they could, then every professional fight would only last until the first blow.

[Killer Cyborg]

So I am saying that if someone like Mike Tyson or George St Pierre came into the bar you happened to be chillin at and started knockin skulls people would be droppin just from the shock of being hit by someone of that ability.

And I'm saying that they might KO a few people, but for the most part they'd be inflicting enough damage with their bare hands to make people flee or die.
And the few people they KOed would be fairly closely covered by the rules governing boxing: KO on a natural 20.

I could see having professional boxers get a higher chance than just that 5%, something more like the nat 18, 19, or 20 that high-level characters get from a number of HTH skills, but the average soldier, mercenary, or adventurer is a LOT less specialized in head-punching people into unconsciousness, and even the best can't do it very reliably.

[gaby]

Ok Tell me what type of weapons do you think can do the Job?

[mobuttu]

Ok Tell me what type of weapons do you think can do the Job?

Neural mace.

[dragonfett]

Taser or Stun Gun. Do they even have stats for those in any of the books?

[Killer Cyborg]

Taser or Stun Gun. Do they even have stats for those in any of the books?

Yup. I think they even have stun guns in the original Rifts book.
HU and N&S definitely have them.

[dragonfett]

Huh, I don't ever remember seeing on listed in the original RMB. Do you know what page it was on so that I can take a second look.

[Killer Cyborg]

Huh, I don't ever remember seeing on listed in the original RMB. Do you know what page it was on so that I can take a second look.

Well, I was half-right.

Rifts 245 does have the stats for a Stun Gun... but apparently it's an actual blaster-type weapon, not what people usually refer to as stun guns today (which are rightfully called hand stunners).

[dragonfett]

Funny how you over look things when they aren't relevant. Thanks Killer Cyborg.