How about a main book?

[KillWatch]

I was just thinking that there are so many rules throughout the megaverse, and that its a little frustrating. Can Palladium put out a main book like GURPS and have all the rules for all the saves, all the skills, all the psionics, all the spells, all the general combat info etc

[KillWatch]

But isn't all that what needs to be corrected? Skill A should give the same bonuses no matter what setting its in?

[Sureshot]

KillWatch I agree their should be a main book that has all the rules and it has been brought up more than once on these boards. Apparently PB sees no need for it. Why? Only Kevin knows.

[KillWatch]

Guiding New Players: Include a solo game where the reader plays a character, like in the Basic D&D set
Reprints: It would save so much on reprints, I mean how many books are the firearms and melee weapons in? And they aren't in the one's they should be? Looking at you HU2nd ed!

Simple Here are the rules no matter what setting your in

[Rimmer]

Where did my post go ?

EDIT: Your comment was removed because it was offensive. NMI

[KillWatch]

that one made it, and I hope you are wrong. i hope a new book would stream line everything

call it Palladium Prime

[Severus Snape]

While I agree with having a "main" book, I don't think it's feasible. The thing would be HUGE, and you'd have to get someone to actually sit down and write it. That's quite the task.

However, I whole-heartedly feel that someone should take the time and create supplement books along these lines. Maybe create one for skills, and one for magic, and one for weapons (the complete weapons books already in print notwithstanding). Take one topic from the whole of the megaverse and create a book for it.

I'd actually be up for doing the skills. I'd love to have all the skills that are available in one nice location instead of having to thumb through 12 different books looking for the skills I am interested in for a character.

[KillWatch]

there are net books out there with all the skills in them.
I don't think the book would be all that big, just the very basic stuff
Part 1 Attributes
Part 2 Skills
Part 3 Combat
a) Maneuvers
b) Types of Hand to Hand, all that aren't game specific like Hand to Hand Agent etc
c) Saves
d) Vehicle Combat (including PA, Shipes, etc)
Part 4 Abilities
a) Psionics
b) Invocation Spells
Part 5 Gear
a) Weapons: ancient, modern, future tech (please include prices)
b) Armor: ancient modern future tech
c) Vehicles: Domestic, Military, etc
d) Equipment: Domestic Items, Science, Criminal, Investigative, Security, Military, etc, phones, computers etc.
Part 6 Solo Adventure
Even if everything was 10 pages it still wouldn't be that big

[Severus Snape]

there are net books out there with all the skills in them.

Can you point me in the direction of one or provide me with a link to one please?

[demos606]

there are net books out there with all the skills in them.
I don't think the book would be all that big, just the very basic stuff
Part 1 Attributes
Part 2 Skills
Part 3 Combat
a) Maneuvers
b) Types of Hand to Hand, all that aren't game specific like Hand to Hand Agent etc
c) Saves
d) Vehicle Combat (including PA, Shipes, etc)
Part 4 Abilities
a) Psionics
b) Invocation Spells
Part 5 Gear
a) Weapons: ancient, modern, future tech (please include prices)
b) Armor: ancient modern future tech
c) Vehicles: Domestic, Military, etc
d) Equipment: Domestic Items, Science, Criminal, Investigative, Security, Military, etc, phones, computers etc.
Part 6 Solo Adventure
Even if everything was 10 pages it still wouldn't be that big

You do realize the existing Book of Magic is 352 pages and doesn't have all of the spells or any psionics right? What you've proposed is easily 1000+ pages and there's no RPG publisher in existance that would compile such a monstrosity. An index volume wouldn't be size prohibitive but you'd still be looking at around 50 pages just for a compiled index and it would have to be reissued every time a new book is printed or official material appears in a Rifter. Even Wizards hasn't attempted such a ridiculous project and have over ten times the staff Paladium (including free lance writers) does because it's so retardedly impractical.

Anyone else remember back in the day when TSR put out their magic item compendium? Or the spell reference card sets?

[KillWatch]

yay reading comprehension

Magic: 75 pages, invocation ONLY, just I wouldn't include every martial art in the combat section , but it doesn't have to be included
Psionics: 20 pages
Cybernetics: 20 pages (rounding up)
Super Powers: 40 pages (rounding up, but cutting out the very redundant crap and primarily going from the conversion book)
Martial Arts: just the basics and agent hand to hand: 5 pages
Combat: 20 pages (rounding up)
Gear: 25 pages (rounding up)
Skills: 50 pages (rounding up)
Stats: 10 pages

Sooo we are looking at 265 pages - doable
Hell go up to 300 for a solo adventure, sample RCCs and OCCs, NPCs and a basic adventure

Building off of this as they seem to want to do but then not they can have weapons and armor compendiums (with prices), Spell compendium (hello), martial arts compendium, psionics compendium, powers compendium, cybernetics/robotics compendium, gear compendium

HU2 is 365
The Pathfinder Core Book is 574 pages

[demos606]

Yes, reading comprehension indeed.

Can Palladium put out a main book like GURPS and have all the rules for all the saves, all the skills, all the psionics, all the spells, all the general combat info etc

Try remembering your original post when you change the goalposts half way thru a discussion. I wasn't commenting on your half baked Invocation only revision, I was commenting on your original post, despite quoting the revised outline that I didn't bother to read closely. Why would anyone want a spell list in what's supposed to be a complete rule and skill book that doesn't have all the spells?

[KillWatch]

half baked? you mean like heroes?

but you are right I did originally say all.

as for why, because it seems to work for everyone else who does a universal system
GURPS, White Wolf, D20, They give you a complete set of rules to play a game and then everything else is frosting. Here is a good assortment of stuff, if you want more go to this book.
reading comprehension indeed. So do you read anyone's posts before you answer to see if you may be addressing something already dealt with? Not saying it is bad, just a bit jarring. Like riding in a car, noticing a giant pink cow by the roadside and ten miles later, hey did you see that cow? People are going to be looking for a cow at that moment rather than thinking you are referring to the original cow.

So if you are referring to the original post, maybe say so

so comprehension or context

[Erinoth]

A Palladium Prime (I liked the name KillWatch came up with) book would be a good idea, just the basic spell and psionics. Do the oocs like in system failure. One skill set with a few skills marked for fantasy modern and future restricted.
add in the combat and very basic equipment list with references on what other games have features people want add. keep the core as basic as possible, keep the rest as plug ins. they could even add the magic and psionics as sourcebook add on.

[Severus Snape]

I am seeing that there may be a need for multiple "main" books:

1 for characters that includes character creation, RCCs, and OCCs (grouped, of course, by portion of the megaverse);
1 for spells and psionics;
1 for skills and educaction;
1 for super abilities (although 3 of them exist, and they still aren't complete);
1 for the GM, to include random tables and adventure hooks;
1 for combat, to include HTH, equipment, and weapons;
1 for robotics, to include bionics

I'm sure I could think of more, but this is a good start. I can see each of these being no less than 300-500 pages each, and with the demand I know that people would buy them.

[Severus Snape]

300-500 pages for a skills book? Please.

Yes, 300-500 pages for a skills book. Let me explain how this is possible.

In the Heroes Unlimited forum, people came up with all kinds of new super-powers that weren't in the HU2 book. So what did Palladium do? They contacted the people who wrote them up and printed them in official books. Three of them, to be exact. Totalling about 300 or so pages. Still with me? Good.

People in the HU forums have started writing up new skills and skill programs. Now, if you take all of the skills that are currently "cannon" or "official" (the ones in the books), you have a document that's about 95 pages long (and that's without the standard Palladium stuff in the front of the book). Now add in all the skills and skill programs that people out here have created. And now throw in the education tables. You're going to get about 300 or so pages for this.

[KillWatch]

ok 1) no skill programs, just skills, or perhaps a selected few to show how they would look. But the point would be to get the skills out there
2) PU1 and 3 Blew, PU2 only mostly blew. The powers are creative spins on existing powers but didn't need a whole new write up, so let's avoid stuff like that (amy energy expulsion screams as it leaves my hands with the face of lincoln. GREAT PU4 coming right up. Oh yeah well mine has Arthur Douglas. NEW Power, wow you guys are on a roll!)

[Scott Gibbons]

If you're interested in this idea (and why it hasn't already been done) you should listen to the Gateway to the Megaverse podcasts. In either the last one (Boxing Day in July) or the one before that (Dangerous Content Here) Matthew Daye and Kevin talk about this for just a little bit. You should check it out to hear the "un-official official" response to this idea.

[Severus Snape]

If you're interested in this idea (and why it hasn't already been done) you should listen to the Gateway to the Megaverse podcasts. In either the last one (Boxing Day in July) or the one before that (Dangerous Content Here) Matthew Daye and Kevin talk about this for just a little bit. You should check it out to hear the "un-official official" response to this idea.

Because I'm an idiot this early in the morning: where are the podcasts located so one can listen to them?

[KillWatch]

There is a link at the main page on the left hand menu

[Scott Gibbons]

I was just thinking that there are so many rules throughout the megaverse, and that its a little frustrating. Can Palladium put out a main book like GURPS and have all the rules for all the saves, all the skills, all the psionics, all the spells, all the general combat info etc

If you're interested in this idea (and why it hasn't already been done) you should listen to the Gateway to the Megaverse podcasts. In either the last one (Boxing Day in July) or the one before that (Dangerous Content Here) Matthew Daye and Kevin talk about this for just a little bit. You should check it out to hear the "un-official official" response to this idea.

Went back and relistened, it's in the "Dangerous Content Here" podcast, around minute 37-39, though to get the full context you'll have to listen to the conversation before that. They don't specifically talk about it for more than a few seconds, but the gist is that it's a big task that no one's (successfully) taken up the challenge to do yet.

[Erinoth]

I was going thru several of my main books, the HU2 book covers almost everything, just a few minor tweaks and a couple revisions and it's good for bout any setting. For "PERSONAL USE" I think i could cut and paste the basics stuff, add a few tweaks it could be working in a month. a couple months to work out the kinks and it would be a decent GENERIC core book with all the basic stuff to get started. the key points would be the updated skills and combat.

[Rallan]

300-500 pages for a skills book? Please.

Yes, 300-500 pages for a skills book. Let me explain how this is possible.

In the Heroes Unlimited forum, people came up with all kinds of new super-powers that weren't in the HU2 book. So what did Palladium do? They contacted the people who wrote them up and printed them in official books. Three of them, to be exact. Totalling about 300 or so pages. Still with me? Good.

People in the HU forums have started writing up new skills and skill programs. Now, if you take all of the skills that are currently "cannon" or "official" (the ones in the books), you have a document that's about 95 pages long (and that's without the standard Palladium stuff in the front of the book). Now add in all the skills and skill programs that people out here have created. And now throw in the education tables. You're going to get about 300 or so pages for this.

Who is going to buy a book that's nothing but three hundred pages of skill listings? I mean let's ignore the fact that you'd be getting at least two hundred and fifty pages of filler that's either useless overspecialised crap or insanely twinky physicals and combat skills. Who is going to want to pay for this ridiculous abomination against common sense?

Seriously, three hundred pages of skills is one of the reasons FATAL would still be the worst RPG ever written even if you took out all the bigotry and puerile humour. There is a reason why no popular RPG in history has ever had three hundred pages of skills.

[KillWatch]

again I think 300 pages is still a huge exaggeration. The HU book has 50 pages of skills. You are expecting a 6:1 ratio?

[Severus Snape]

again I think 300 pages is still a huge exaggeration. The HU book has 50 pages of skills. You are expecting a 6:1 ratio?

I'm just saying that if all of the cannon skills were put together (which they have, and that's 95 pages), as well as palladium deciding to use the skills that other people have invented (which they might, seeing as they did that with powers), and then add the education tables, then it's feasible that you could get to 300 pages. I'm not saying anybody would buy it, or that PB would do it. Just that it is entirely feasible.

[KillWatch]

A book with JUST skills I doubt it and it would be a bad idea. Secondly, Not every skill needs to be. Again there needs to be some serious editing. And where do you come up with 95 pages?
Hell the RUE is only 32 pages long
Even N&SS which I would consider the most skill intensive game, has only 20 pages, not including the 32 pages of martial arts

My game doesn't have 300 pages worth of skills and I exploded the MFer
I liked the idea of Master level skills so I adopted a system of Basic - Expert - Master
For example Pilot Auto
Basic: Lets you drive the car
Expert: Race Car
Expert: Stunt Car
Expert: Pursuit/Evasion
and then master levels of each of these

and even with this system with expanded skill definitions and subsets, I don't have 300 pages.

So unless there are going to be a LOT of skills that begin to go into minutia (Pilot Auto-Autobon, Pilot Auto European/American, Pilot Auto: Stopping, Pilot Auto: Going, Pilot red tricycles names Herb) and being 90% useless, like PU (jab), I don't see it

[Rallan]

Anywise, back to the idea of a universal main book.

Without changing the game rules, how do we handle character creation? Every single race gets its own unique attribute rolls, its own special abilities, its own free skills, and its own innate spells or psionics. Every single class has its own unique prerequisites, its own unique skill list, its own unique attribute and combat bonuses, its own unique abilities, and its own unique amount of spells and psionics (and in a lot of cases, its own unique list of available spells or psionics that no other class in any of Palladium's games is allowed to use). How do we put that completely unplanned and ever-expanding abomination into a universal rulebook?

[KillWatch]

simple you don't. You just use base humans, with a select few RCCs, and a few OCCs just to let the reader know what they look like and what to expect. Again, if you know GURPs, you know what I am talking about. A single main book and a slew of additional books for settings, gear, and other expansions. The core book simply has to have the basics, the mechanics the skills general abilities and what characters look like

[Nemo235]

Reboot the system.
I think this is a great idea. Other games have done well with a core book and genre sourcebook expansions.
But I don't think it's going to happen.

1. It may seem to risky. Palladium (Kevin Siembieda) probably doesn't want to take the chance of alienating current fans or confusing potential gamers.

2. It would take a considerable amount of time to evalulate and edit the rules that need to be included. Time that could be spent developing books for the existing system. Time is money.

3. Although I don't know him personally, Kevin Siembieda's RPG writing philosophy seems to be "I come up with the ideas and general structure. The player's and GM will sort it out and fill in the gaps to their satisfaction."

And there is nothing wrong with that, per se. That is what he had to do himself to create the Palladium system.
He took the things he liked from other games and put them together with some cool campaigns.

[Nemo235]

Just to clarify my post above, by "Reboot the system" I didn't mean "Recreate or Rewrite the system".

I simply meant bring all the basic rules needed to play the game together in one book.
The rules of the Megaverse collected, reviewed, and edited for clarity.

And think about it from the ground up. Back to the basics at first.
Character creation and game rules.

A book like this wouldn't need to collect every RCC/OCC/Spell/Psionic/Weapon/etc.
Just a few examples with an explanation that previous books may make exceptions.
(Especially a detailed example of initiative and combat rounds, but that's another topic...)

I think if it were well organized and clarifies the many questions that pop up alot, it would be a popular book.

But I don't think it will happen.
We've been given a world creation kit with some really cool Legos, some Lincoln Logs, an Erector set and some Play Doh to stick it all together with.
Some people get frustrated or are not satisfied and switch to a different toy.
Other's, Like Mr. Siembieda, I suspect, take those materials and create amazing experiences and shared stories, relying more on their imaginations and the whim of the moment than any hard, codified rule system.

It's all about the style of the GM. Like comparing a pessimist and an optimist.
The first says "There's not enough there, it's unclear."
The second says "There's just enough there, I can change whatever and create anything else I need anyway."

[jaymz]

There are a ton of great ideas here.
I think the trend for Palladium has been create a core book and spread the ideas out. Great for building products and having balanced books. Perfect.

What I would recommend is instead of compiling a core book of rules you get together and follow the palladium system of balanced skills, rules and tweaks and add it to a new world book or some such thing. The evolution of a better game book would then come to be the end result.

So you would be looking at 100 pages of skills.
a GM reference section 60 pages of saves and charts and stuff.
A 50 page campaign content then add another 50 pages of characters, gear and tech. You have a world book with all the wish list items we have posted here. That is 260 pages of a core book!

The next step would be to pitch the finished item to Palladium with all the glory where it may face re-writes but may still improve the over all game because of the centralized content.

Please no reboot - I do not want to buy 80 new books!
I wonder if the GM guide has this stuff in it????
It is one of the few books I refuse to purchase as I have all the others except for about 5 books.

Well the GMs Guide and Book of Magic DID cover a lot of the material here but has since been outdated by new books and the RUE.

[Kalidor]

I don't believe there needs to be any content in this supposed core book, just game mechanics and rules. That's what gets screwed up with every new iteration of the game.

[KillWatch]

I can play HU with just the HU book, hell even teh revised was enough for me

[The Dark Elf]

IMO this would be a bad idea.

The one think that Palladium does is it keeps costs down for us. If you buy a main book you dont need any other books to play. Hooray.

The Palladium Prime would include all skills. this would confuse those who play PF, HU, Rifts as skill selections arent the same. to select from "any" in a skill category would be the same for PF as it is in Rifts.

Its not needed. The GM guide compiled a lot of loose info for Rifts.

[KillWatch]

(hopefully) we aren't stupid. If we are playing PF then we aren't taking WP Laser Rifle, WP Grenade. But other than that I don't recall any PF skills that can't go forward as skills. And I think it is needed. The setting books should be just that, settings, with OCCs, RCCs, Locations

[Rallan]

IMO this would be a bad idea.

The one think that Palladium does is it keeps costs down for us. If you buy a main book you dont need any other books to play. Hooray.

The Palladium Prime would include all skills. this would confuse those who play PF, HU, Rifts as skill selections arent the same. to select from "any" in a skill category would be the same for PF as it is in Rifts.

Its not needed. The GM guide compiled a lot of loose info for Rifts.

I agree that it'd be a bad idea, but for different reasons. It's not a bad idea because the idea of having a universal rulebook is flawed. It's working just fine for GURPs, World of Darkness, and the 800lb gorilla of the gaming industry that is DnD.

The problem is that since every Palladium game on the market already has all the rules you need for play in its own main book, who would buy a Palladium universal rulebook? Unless Palladium decides to relaunch all its game lines at once, there's just no point making a core rulebook full of rules everyone already owns, because only the most uncritical gotta-buy-them-all fans will buy it.

[The Dark Elf]

IMO this would be a bad idea.

The one think that Palladium does is it keeps costs down for us. If you buy a main book you dont need any other books to play. Hooray.

The Palladium Prime would include all skills. this would confuse those who play PF, HU, Rifts as skill selections arent the same. to select from "any" in a skill category would be the same for PF as it is in Rifts.

Its not needed. The GM guide compiled a lot of loose info for Rifts.

I agree that it'd be a bad idea, but for different reasons. It's not a bad idea because the idea of having a universal rulebook is flawed. It's working just fine for GURPs, World of Darkness, and the 800lb gorilla of the gaming industry that is DnD.

The problem is that since every Palladium game on the market already has all the rules you need for play in its own main book, who would buy a Palladium universal rulebook? Unless Palladium decides to relaunch all its game lines at once, there's just no point making a core rulebook full of rules everyone already owns, because only the most uncritical gotta-buy-them-all fans will buy it.

Makes sense. I agree.

[KillWatch]

well,.. why not do a relaunch? palladium is over 20 years old, and D&D has had how many redux in that time? Better art, more cohesive and less left hand not knowing what the right is doing

[Rallan]

well,.. why not do a relaunch? palladium is over 20 years old, and D&D has had how many redux in that time? Better art, more cohesive and less left hand not knowing what the right is doing

Because according to Kevin Siembieda, Palladium's megaversal(tm) rules are already just fabulous and do a wonderful job of being awesome in every single setting Palladium has ever published, they work just fine, and they totally don't need any significant changes.

You can make up your own mind about whether he really believes that or whether he's just putting a positive spin on things because he doesn't think Palladium can really afford to take the time out it needs (or hire the extra staff it needs) to revamp the rules and write all the new books it'd need for the relaunch of all its game lines.