Chi Hsuan Men

[Hibik]

...well I like it.

[Mantisking]

I'd say, after skimming it, the abilities feel a little over-powered. I'll try and go over it a bit more in depth sometime soon.

[JuliusCreed]

OK this is my favorite style in N&S, but I've always been bothered by the lack of description of W.P. White Jade Fan, and being an exclusive style, I always figured the fans would be pretty important. So this is my addendum to the style, W.P. White Jade Fan. I hope you like it.

W.P. White Jade Fan: This weapon does (2D6) damage, and can be used to strike, parry, and disarm. Along with the following bonuses, it provides some special attack options.

Bonuses: +1 to Strike, Parry and Disarm at level one, +1 to Strike at levels 3, 6, 10, and 14, +1 to Disarm at levels 5 and 12, and +1 to Parry at levels 2, 4, 7, 11, and 15. All bonuses are cumulative.

Special Attacks: The Chi Hsuan Men master is so skilled in the style that while holding the fans, the following special attacks become available

1. Whirlwind Defense: The fans can be used to deflect airborne assaults such as darts, arrows, and spears. Gunfire can NOT be deflected! The character can use W.P. White Jade Fan as an effective circular parry, and only loses all offensive attacks in a Whirlwind Defense, but gains an additional +2 to Parry. The Whirlwind Defense takes an entire melee round, but the character can move, dodge, and evade the entire melee round.

2. Sneak Attack: The fans can be used for a sudden attack, so if the character has initiative at least 6 above his or her assailant, the fans can be whipped out for a deadly double strike. This Sneak Attack can not be dodged (but can be parried at -4), and it inflicts double damage (4D6) from the fans themselves. The opponent is ideally right in front of the character, and the fans are used in an attempt at decapitation, or at least, gravely injuring the face of the adversary.

3. Pain Thrust: The characters knowledge of atemi and Chi serves him or her well. The White Jade Fan can be thrust into a sensitive pressure point, that causes incredible pain. A save vs pain is required (14+ P.E. bonuses apply) or the character is -3 on Initiative, and -2 on all combat moves for 1D4 melees. The attack requires a successful unmodified roll of 12, and can be attempted twice per melee round. The attack does normal damage but successive Pain Thrusts do have a cumulative penalty effect.

Chi Hsuan Men data reads as follows;
"Weapon Katas: WP Blunt: Uses White Jade Fan, WP Paired Weapons: uses White Jade Fan-Paired"
Don't know about anyone else, but it tells me that the White Jade fan is a Blunt weapon. Use WP Blunt.
As for the special attacks you came up with, use them or lose them as you see fit... I agree with Mantisking about them feeling a bit over powered, but hey... whatever works for you

[Mantisking]

OK this is my favorite style in N&S, but I've always been bothered by the lack of description of W.P. White Jade Fan, and being an exclusive style, I always figured the fans would be pretty important. So this is my addendum to the style, W.P. White Jade Fan. I hope you like it.

There's nothing wrong with filling out something that is a little thin in the rules.

W.P. White Jade Fan: This weapon does (2D6) damage, and can be used to strike, parry, and disarm. Along with the following bonuses, it provides some special attack options.

2d6? The same as a Samurai Bow, Katana, Lion-Head Sword, Chinese Broadsword, Hercules Club, Flail, etc?

Bonuses: +1 to Strike, Parry and Disarm at level one, +1 to Strike at levels 3, 6, 10, and 14, +1 to Disarm at levels 5 and 12, and +1 to Parry at levels 2, 4, 7, 11, and 15. All bonuses are cumulative.

Three bonuses points at level one? Okay, W.P. Forked has that too. Spread across three categories? No other W.P. does that. And no other W.P. has a bonus to Disarm, Entangle is the only other bonus usually granted. +5 to Strike max? Reasonable. +6 to Parry max? Strong, but reasonable. +3 to Disarm max? Reasonable, but really should be Entangle. No bonus to Throw?

Special Attacks: The Chi Hsuan Men master is so skilled in the style that while holding the fans, the following special attacks become available.

All Weapon Kata already allow the user to use the weapon with the styles moves and bonuses so adding extra seems a little overkill.

1. Whirlwind Defense: The fans can be used to deflect airborne assaults such as darts, arrows, and spears. Gunfire can NOT be deflected! The character can use W.P. White Jade Fan as an effective circular parry, and only loses all offensive attacks in a Whirlwind Defense, but gains an additional +2 to Parry. The Whirlwind Defense takes an entire melee round, but the character can move, dodge, and evade the entire melee round.

So it's a cross between Yadomejutsu Kata and Itsutsu-No-Kata? So this really should be a Special Kata in and of itself then. Granted, it is something that Chi Hsuan Men really needs to expand it's effectiveness.

2. Sneak Attack: The fans can be used for a sudden attack, so if the character has initiative at least 6 above his or her assailant, the fans can be whipped out for a deadly double strike. This Sneak Attack can not be dodged (but can be parried at -4), and it inflicts double damage (4D6) from the fans themselves. The opponent is ideally right in front of the character, and the fans are used in an attempt at decapitation, or at least, gravely injuring the face of the adversary.

So, Critical Strike on a Sneak Attack?

3. Pain Thrust: The characters knowledge of atemi and Chi serves him or her well. The White Jade Fan can be thrust into a sensitive pressure point, that causes incredible pain. A save vs pain is required (14+ P.E. bonuses apply) or the character is -3 on Initiative, and -2 on all combat moves for 1D4 melees. The attack requires a successful unmodified roll of 12, and can be attempted twice per melee round. The attack does normal damage but successive Pain Thrusts do have a cumulative penalty effect.

This one is actually the least useful of the three as CHM stylists already have access to Paralysis Attack using the White Jade Fan.

[Mantisking]

Chi Hsuan Men data reads as follows;
"Weapon Katas: WP Blunt: Uses White Jade Fan, WP Paired Weapons: uses White Jade Fan-Paired"
Don't know about anyone else, but it tells me that the White Jade fan is a Blunt weapon. Use WP Blunt.

Enh. That's the Revised version. I'm guessing Mephisto has the original.

[Mantisking]

One more thing. While I might have a fundamental disagreement on the execution, I love the idea. This is something that should have been done ages ago.

[Mantisking]

Wow, I can't believe I missed this post. I think I'll reply to it now.

Okay.

I suppose a fan could be used to entangle, it just seemed less likely than using it to disarm someone.

If you look at the bonuses granted by weapon proficiencies it's either Strike, Parry, Throw, or Entangle. There is no Disarm bonus from W.P.

And throwing a fan seems as useful as throwing a ball of plastic, it won't have any effect whatsoever.

The fan is described as being metal. If it's folded up it would probably fly like a dart. And I think I've seen opened fans thrown in movie fight scenes.

The damage might be a bit high, I suppose 1D8 would be a better damage dice roll. The bonuses were kind of meant to be high because like Zanji, it's a weapon based style. And the way the Revised game is written now, a DMA with CHM will get killed badly by a WMA with Zanji. So it was an attempt to level the playing field with each fighter having their specialized weapon.

Are you sure about that?

Revised Chi Hsuan Men
ApM: 2 @ 1st (4 total)
Roll with P/F/I +5
Parry +5
Dodge +5
Strike +1
Damage +6
Disarm +6
K.O./Stun: 19+ @ 4th, Behind @ 7th.
Crit.: 20 @ 1st, Behind @ 7th, 18+ @ 12th.
Deathblow: 19+ @ 8th.

Revised Zanji Shinjinken Ryu
ApM: 4 @ 1st (9 total)
Roll with P/F/I +3
Parry +4
Dodge +3
Strike +3
Damage +0
Maintain Balance +3
K.O./Stun: 19+ @ 14th.
Crit.: Behind @ 1st, 18+ @ 5th.
Deathblow: 20 @ 6th.

The numbers look pretty good for CHM -- except the ApM, that is. Anyway. It seems like your thinking of a "white room" encounter between a CHM stylist and a ZSR stylist. And for ZSR to win in that situation is not a bad thing. It's a battlefield style, that's the kind of encounter it's built for. CHM, on the other hand, is for use in the throne room -- or some other indoor space -- where access to weapons is limited to what can be readily concealed and attacks are made from surprise.

Whirlwind Defense to me seemed like a natural fit for the style. It does have that kata feel, but I thought it should be applied here, since CHM characters can't even get special katas.

It does make sense. But I don't think it fits. If CHM was a style for bodyguards it'd work. But it's a style for sneaky eunuchs, who come up behind the opponent and jam the fan into the base of their spine.

Sneak Attack: it's not meant to be a double damage critical strike, the 4D6 is from the two white jade fans. But if the damage is reduced to 2D8 for two fan hits, then yet I suppose a successful Sneak Attack would be a critical strike doing double damage. All the more reason to put your foe at ease before you attack.

True. Which is how the style is supposed to operate. So really, it needs to have a Critical Strike on Sneak Attack as one of its LABs.

And to be a bit of a jerk, a pain strike doesn't involve paralysis, so the Paralysis Attack (Vital Points) remains a valid attack.

What I was trying to say there, is that Paralysis Attack is better mechanically than your Pain Attack. It requires no target number, it has no restrictions on use, it lasts longer (1d6 melees), and has a better effect (opponent loses all bonuses and cannot attack).

Overall for being Exclusive the style is weak. Add to it that only the DMA and the Antiquarian (hardly a combat monster) can acquire it, and I figured it needed more depth to truly belong being an Exclusive style.

I don't think it's weak, it just needs to be used in the appropriate situations.

[Mantisking]

I'm not going to address the rest of the criticisms because honestly you are right. CHM is an aristocratic style for the ruling few, and the jade fan is a deadly weapon. However, on this I take exception. The comment I made was about a DMA + CHM vs WMA + ZRS, not just the styles themselves. The class difference in skill potential is a lot bigger a can of worms, since the WMA is instantly given more MAP and physical skills that skew the fight in a pretty substantial way.

Okay, I'll admit I missed that distinction (DMA vs. WMA). Once I get some sleep I'll try to come up with a decent reply.

[Mantisking]

I'm not going to address the rest of the criticisms because honestly you are right. CHM is an aristocratic style for the ruling few, and the jade fan is a deadly weapon. However, on this I take exception. The comment I made was about a DMA + CHM vs WMA + ZRS, not just the styles themselves. The class difference in skill potential is a lot bigger a can of worms, since the WMA is instantly given more MAP and physical skills that skew the fight in a pretty substantial way.

Okay. Now that I've had some time to think about it, here's what I have to say. The problem doesn't lie in the style, it comes from the power invariance between DMA and WMA O.C.C.s. And maybe we should save that discussion for another topic.