Deathblow?

[Long Shadow]

No, the charater needs to call the Death Blow before rolling for it. It's only if you call it and get the required roll that Death Blow is enacted. If you're using Rifts Ultimate or Heroes Unlimited 2nd ed. it takes two attacks.

[dragonfett]

What is you player's race and OCC or RCC? As far as I knew, there was only one RCC/OCC that could be good and yet take Hand to Hand: Assassin and that was the Simvan due to the fact that all Simvan started out with that hand to hand style and could be any alignment. All of the other RCC's and OCC's that I remember seeing that offered the choice were restricted to Anarchist or Evil alignments.

[Vrykolas2k]

No, the charater needs to call the Death Blow before rolling for it. It's only if you call it and get the required roll that Death Blow is enacted. If you're using Rifts Ultimate or Heroes Unlimited 2nd ed. it takes two attacks.

Technically, this is correct.
A few people, like me, house-rule it otherwise.

[Prysus]

Is deathblow voluntary? Seems like it just happens when you roll a natural 20.

Just wondering since one of my PCs took H2H assassin on a PC with a good alignment. Just don't want it to hinder the character at later levels....

Thoughts?
-Pax

Greetings and Salutations. I'm going to say voluntary. HtH: Assassin isn't the only one with Death Blow (Expert and Martial Arts both have it as well, just aquired at a higher level). So unless the character has HtH: Basic, the Death Blow technique will always be a concern for good characters. It only costs one attack (for the Hand to Hand forms), so the only requirement is the Natural 20 (or other Natural number). The note about it costing two attacks is in reference to being able to call it at will (this includes R:UE). If you want my more detailed explanation, I'll provide a link to the last thread that discussed Death Blow (that was in the PF forum, but R:UE is pretty much the same).

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=116777

Hope that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day for now.

[Colt47]

I think the biggest concern with the death blow was if it could be turned off or not, and it seems like it can be turned off. Also for the sake of political correctness, the character isn't a good alignment. The character is Unprincipled.

[DBX]

the character has to declare he's going for a death blow, before he rolls the dice. Undeclared it just counts as a natural 20 dice roll (
critical damage).

what about kock out/stun - does that have to be declared?

what about when character is in frenzy/berserker rage with death blow?

[dragonfett]

what about kock out/stun - does that have to be declared?

Yes and no. Normally it is yes, however if someone has the Boxing skill, then it states specifically that they do not need to declare a knock out before the roll. All they have to do is roll a natural 20.

[SkyeFyre]

Rifts Main Book page 35, top left of page under "STEP 2: Attacker Rolls Strike"

"Note that special attacks like Knockout/Stun or Death Blow must be declared BEFORE rolling to strike"

Therefore they must be declared before they can be used and are not automatic.

[dragonfett]

Ah, but on page 316 of the RUE and on page of 28 of the original Rifts Main Book, under the Boxing skill, it says that someone with the boxing skill will automatically knockout opponents on a roll of a naturally 20, and unlike a normal Knockout/Stun attack, the player does not need to announce that they are wanting to attempt the Knockout. Deathblow still requires to be announced first (especially considering the fact that Deathblow requires two attacks).

[SkyeFyre]

Ah, but on page 316 of the RUE and on page of 28 of the original Rifts Main Book, under the Boxing skill, it says that someone with the boxing skill will automatically knockout opponents on a roll of a naturally 20, and unlike a normal Knockout/Stun attack, the player does not need to announce that they are wanting to attempt the Knockout. Deathblow still requires to be announced first (especially considering the fact that Deathblow requires two attacks).

My point is still valid. All this entry does is add a new condition to check for. So what this entry means is that you need to declare a knockout unless you have boxing... then it's mandatory. Death blow still needs to be announced as you stated.

[dragonfett]

My point is still valid. All this entry does is add a new condition to check for. So what this entry means is that you need to declare a knockout unless you have boxing... then it's mandatory. Death blow still needs to be announced as you stated.

What do you mean by that? That a boxer must declare that he is going for a knockout attack or that he knocks out his target when he rolls a natural 20 whether he was trying to do so or not? The way you had stated that confused me as to what you were meaning.

[SkyeFyre]

That a boxer automatically knocks someone out on a roll of 20.

[Mercdog]

In my games I rule that a Deathblow must be declared, but I only require that the Strike roll with bonuses be 20 or above (or 18+ depending on the H2H style and level) rather than a Natural 20. I consider the death blow a called shot, so there is also a penalty of -4 to the Strike roll.

[jedi078]

A called aimed shot to someone's head can easy be a 'deathblow' dependent on what kind of weapon your using and if said head is protected.

That said in many cases 'calling a deathblow' isn't really needed....

[dragonfett]

Most melee called strikes don't have a negative to the roll unless the target area is really small (like the ear or eye). The reason for this is at melee range, it is much easier to hit where you are trying to hit, you just do so with out any bonuses to strike (IIRC).

[Mercdog]

Most melee called strikes don't have a negative to the roll unless the target area is really small (like the ear or eye). The reason for this is at melee range, it is much easier to hit where you are trying to hit, you just do so with out any bonuses to strike (IIRC).

Just a habit I guess. I've always applied penalties for called shots, whether ranged or melee.
Requiring a 6+(or -2) to hit an arm/leg, or an 8+(or -4) to hit the head in melee doesn't seem too draconian to me. At least I've never had any complaints from my players.

I do consider the deathblow to be a strike against a small area and worthy of a penalty. I'd think a person can't just hit someone anywhere for a deathblow, you need to strike a certain nerve cluster or hit the area above the heart just right.

Of course, now that I think about it, Deathblow still requires a fairly high roll to be effective, even if I've made it easier in my games. So maybe the penalty isn't needed. I'll have to think on it.

[dragonfett]

I think penalizing a character on a death strike is a bit much, but then again you are allowing for normal melee strike bonuses so that does kind of balance out.

[Long Shadow]

If the deathblow is only on a roll of natural 20, then penalties to strike would be superfluous.

The way I see it, a house rule which would NOT require deathblow to be declared is defeating the entire purpose of deathblow to begin with. The reason DB is so cool (and why it is only available at higher levels of experience) is because at that point in their training, the practitioner is skilled and precise enough to be able to target the lethal areas of their opponents' bodies, and with this level of proficiency I find it highly unlikely that a martial artist would "accidentally" perform a killing strike without meaning to.

You might want to check out the skill Vital Points from Splicers. It's designed for assassination allowing skilled bonuses to apply to specific strike such as Criticals and aimed shots. This skill kinf of covers what you've described.

[dragonfett]

I just thought of an interesting house rule. Only for characters with Death Blow, if they roll a Natural 20 w/o calling for it, they have to roll a second d20 with no bonuses to see if they get another Natural 20. If they do then it's an automatic Death Blow whether they like it or not. I think this mimics real life where someone who is that skilled could kill someone by accident with one hit. I mean think about it, any boxer or martial artist above a certain level (I think it is black belt or equivalent) have to go to the police department and register their hands as lethal weapons.

[Damian Magecraft]

so what about tremendous p.s. when you do a death blow on a roll of 16-20. you have to declare everytime you roll that you might do a death blow.

cite a book reference for this...
other wise its just a house rule.

[Severus Snape]

Here's what I do: I house rule that you cannot use death blow. Why? While it's feasible that you could strike someone really hard in the head and kill them, it's more likely that you'll do enough SDC/HP damage from a blow or two to kill them. And rolling a natural 20 should always inflict at least double damage, which may kill someone.

That and I've had players who call a death blow shot on every combat action because they want that one-hit kill. Yes, I know the monsters/NPCs can use this against the players. But I don't want to kill my players - I want them to play and have fun. And it's no fun for me (or some other players) if someone is always saying "I'm going to attempt the death blow". Pffft.

House rule it out of existence, I did. Forbid my players to use it, I did. Hmmm. Do the same, you should.

[dragonfett]

So what do you do in compensation for a character whose Hand to Hand skill or some class special ability that give them Deathblow and nothing else at level X?

[Damian Magecraft]

Here's what I do: I house rule that you cannot use death blow. Why? While it's feasible that you could strike someone really hard in the head and kill them, it's more likely that you'll do enough SDC/HP damage from a blow or two to kill them. And rolling a natural 20 should always inflict at least double damage, which may kill someone.

That and I've had players who call a death blow shot on every combat action because they want that one-hit kill. Yes, I know the monsters/NPCs can use this against the players. But I don't want to kill my players - I want them to play and have fun. And it's no fun for me (or some other players) if someone is always saying "I'm going to attempt the death blow". Pffft.

House rule it out of existence, I did. Forbid my players to use it, I did. Hmmm. Do the same, you should.

actually the goose/gander routine will cure the deathblow spammer. (or any action spammer for that matter...)
once they see how annoying it is when its used on them they pull back on it fast.

or conversely if you want to slow down the DB spam you could house rule it as an all or nothing attack. (miss the death blow and you miss completely.) that one worked for a couple of spammers in my games.

[Severus Snape]

So what do you do in compensation for a character whose Hand to Hand skill or some class special ability that give them Deathblow and nothing else at level X?

HTH Martial Arts and HTH Expert, this doesn't happen until Level 15. For HTH Assassin, it happens at Level 7.

MA and Expert - I haven't been in a campaign or run a group of PCs that has attained that level yet, so I haven't had to encounter this.

Assassin - none of the PCs in the campaigns I've run have taken this, so I haven't had to deal with it.

What would I do in the event that this situation came up? I'd talk to the player and discuss other abilities that would make sense at that level and in their character's existence to compensate for not getting the death blow. Not sure on Expert and MA, but for Assassin I'd probably eliminate the death blow altogether and move everything else up 1 level.

[Prysus]

HTH Martial Arts and HTH Expert, this doesn't happen until Level 15. For HTH Assassin, it happens at Level 7.

Greetings and Salutations. Actually, with Assassin, it's at level 12 (at least in my 2nd Edition, Third Printing). This is just for clarity (and I'm about to address it below as well).

Though I am curious why someone would house rule something that never comes up? Not really a big deal, just curious.

General question for everyone: For those saying that it's a major problem when a player calls it all the time ... I am curious to the problem. I know that it's a fairly powerful ability ... but it's a Level 15 (or 12 in the case of Assassin) which is fairly rare in the first place, then to top it off it can still only be done on a Natural 20 (only a %5 chance of success). I'll be honest, it's never come up in any of my campaigns, but I guess I'm just not quite sure what the problem is with letting a powerful character be powerful?

Also, not quite sure why it should be reserved for that last moment when the character really needs it ... and hope that the character (who for Expert and Martials Arts are at the peak of their ability) will be lucky enough to get a Natural 20?

This is why, personally, I wouldn't make a player call it. At the times when they roll a Natural 20 for their attack (and not for defense) I'd let them pick Death Blow (instead of making them call it EVERY turn, which is just annoying and silly to do to a player) or not. Now, with that said, I would also have the villains attempt to use it the same. Of course, I'm not going to have every random thug they come across suddenly be level 15 just because they are. If they're going up against a Level 15 villain (or even a Level 12 villain with HtH: Assassin), this is a major enemy that should be dangerous (someone who makes it that high isn't common and should be taken seriously).

Though, again, maybe I'm missing something. As I said, this has never actually come up in one of my games (we switch to a new setting, its been years and we feel like something new, the rare times I've actually killed a player character who was really asking for it, schedules start to conflict and the group splits up, etc.). So if I am please explain it to me (I'm just curious). Anyways, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Damian Magecraft]

HTH Martial Arts and HTH Expert, this doesn't happen until Level 15. For HTH Assassin, it happens at Level 7.

Greetings and Salutations. Actually, with Assassin, it's at level 12 (at least in my 2nd Edition, Third Printing). This is just for clarity (and I'm about to address it below as well).

Though I am curious why someone would house rule something that never comes up? Not really a big deal, just curious.

General question for everyone: For those saying that it's a major problem when a player calls it all the time ... I am curious to the problem. I know that it's a fairly powerful ability ... but it's a Level 15 (or 12 in the case of Assassin) which is fairly rare in the first place, then to top it off it can still only be done on a Natural 20 (only a %5 chance of success). I'll be honest, it's never come up in any of my campaigns, but I guess I'm just not quite sure what the problem is with letting a powerful character be powerful?

Also, not quite sure why it should be reserved for that last moment when the character really needs it ... and hope that the character (who for Expert and Martials Arts are at the peak of their ability) will be lucky enough to get a Natural 20?

This is why, personally, I wouldn't make a player call it. At the times when they roll a Natural 20 for their attack (and not for defense) I'd let them pick Death Blow (instead of making them call it EVERY turn, which is just annoying and silly to do to a player) or not. Now, with that said, I would also have the villains attempt to use it the same. Of course, I'm not going to have every random thug they come across suddenly be level 15 just because they are. If they're going up against a Level 15 villain (or even a Level 12 villain with HtH: Assassin), this is a major enemy that should be dangerous (someone who makes it that high isn't common and should be taken seriously).

Though, again, maybe I'm missing something. As I said, this has never actually come up in one of my games (we switch to a new setting, its been years and we feel like something new, the rare times I've actually killed a player character who was really asking for it, schedules start to conflict and the group splits up, etc.). So if I am please explain it to me (I'm just curious). Anyways, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Some N&S MAs offer it at earlier levels.
I have never had it become an issue in my games. (but then my players are all older gamers who have been in the hobby for years.)

[Prysus]

Some N&S MAs offer it at earlier levels.
I have never had it become an issue in my games. (but then my players are all older gamers who have been in the hobby for years.)

*Looks.* Oops!

Greetings and Salutations. Just realized we're in the GM forum and not the PF or Rifts forums. I knew about the N&S thing, but for some reason thought this was PF or Rifts forums so that didn't matter as much. But as the case may be: Good point! Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[dragonfett]

You know, what about possibly increasing critical damage instead, Severus Snape?

[Damian Magecraft]

You know, what about possibly increasing critical damage instead, Severus Snape?

If i were to house rule the death blow away this most likely is what I would do. say X3 or X4 etc...

[dragonfett]

They have changed nothing with the Boxing Skill, it has always granted an automatic Knockout on a Natural 20 (original RMB, page 28, right column, last skill on the page, second line, automatically in italics).

[Damian Magecraft]

They have changed nothing with the Boxing Skill, it has always granted an automatic Knockout on a Natural 20 (original RMB, page 28, right column, last skill on the page, second line, automatically in italics).

it was like that in the original Heroes Unlimited as well.

[Damian Magecraft]

Oh and one more thing...

other than in the boxing entry... I can't find ANY reference to having to declare a KO attempt.

Most KO HtH benifits are on more than a natural 20. Like in my scanning i saw 17-20 and the like. I would let any fighters in HtH KO on their KO range I think.... just boxers get that 5% chance at first level instead of having to wait until 5th




and.... when would you use a kickboxing "Knee Attack" that does half the damage of a kick? When they listed those attacks you get they should give the lesser one like a bonus to strike or something.

when in tight quarters or grappled.
Rifts Game Master Guide, Page 34, second column, Section entitled The Knockout, 1st paragraph.

[Damian Magecraft]

Oh and one more thing...

other than in the boxing entry... I can't find ANY reference to having to declare a KO attempt.

Most KO HtH benifits are on more than a natural 20. Like in my scanning i saw 17-20 and the like. I would let any fighters in HtH KO on their KO range I think.... just boxers get that 5% chance at first level instead of having to wait until 5th




and.... when would you use a kickboxing "Knee Attack" that does half the damage of a kick? When they listed those attacks you get they should give the lesser one like a bonus to strike or something.

when in tight quarters or grappled.
Rifts Game Master Guide, Page 34, second column, Section entitled The Knockout, 1st paragraph.

Ahh, ok... you get the honor of being right.... on the internet.
I'll have to look it up.... but ok... i am probably standing corrected... or is that directed.

does that mean I get an internet cookie?

[Prysus]

So I checked up on death blow while i was at home for lunch.


AND.... it costs TWO attacks to even try it. That's huge. If one of your players is spamming it they are hurting themselves more than any benefit they get from it.

NOW... that said... its crap. To have to spend two attacks for only a 5% chance is terrible. And I love how the the section in RUE about MDC creatures say its the "same as above" refering to the SDC one doing double direct to HPs in damage. I'm sorry... doing double MDC is not even close to the same thing as doing double direct to hit points even with a tempoary loss of bioregeneration. it should be like quadruple... or force some kind of saving throw or die... or like deals 50% the target's total MDC or something.

Greetings and Salutations. I'll address this with a copy and paste from my response in a different thread. This was discussed on the PF forum, but the wording is pretty much the same in R:UE (and I think most, if not all, settings).

2) Deathblow does not always count as two actions. Say what? The book says ... no! The book says that when no number is listed the character can perform Death Blows at will (no Natural roll required), and this devastating attack counts as two actions. The two actions part is connected to the sentence of performing it without natural number, not stand alone. I believe this is significant. While I can't prove this is fact, and arguments can be made to the contrary, I believe my interpretation makes sense. Note: Again, PF doesn't have any Hand to Hand styles with Deathblow not requiring a natural number. This is quite likely a result of another cut and paste job (again, quite possibly from Ninjas & Superspies). Though I have applied this rule to Demon Death Blow of the Palladin (which requires two attacks for note), this is not fact. It is opinion and the way I have done things, but there is disagreement towards it being by the rules. Though go ahead and read the "Death Blow against Supernatural Beings ..." section, which sounds rather similar to the Demon Death Blow, no? Mainly just that DDB of the Palladin is limited to one type of foe, that's all.

3) Deathblow requiring a Natural roll (Natural 20 for PF styles) can be done in a single action, and therefore doesn't have to be declared. Or I guess you could declare it before every action if you're going for it, but doesn't change anything if you don't get that roll (so the only penalty will be making you tired of saying it every turn). This, again, is only personal belief. But, if you believe point 2, then this is a natural conclusion (for me).

[The Beast]

So I checked up on death blow while i was at home for lunch.


AND.... it costs TWO attacks to even try it. That's huge. If one of your players is spamming it they are hurting themselves more than any benefit they get from it.

NOW... that said... its crap. To have to spend two attacks for only a 5% chance is terrible. And I love how the the section in RUE about MDC creatures say its the "same as above" refering to the SDC one doing double direct to HPs in damage. I'm sorry... doing double MDC is not even close to the same thing as doing double direct to hit points even with a tempoary loss of bioregeneration. it should be like quadruple... or force some kind of saving throw or die... or like deals 50% the target's total MDC or something.

Greetings and Salutations. I'll address this with a copy and paste from my response in a different thread. This was discussed on the PF forum, but the wording is pretty much the same in R:UE (and I think most, if not all, settings).

2) Deathblow does not always count as two actions. Say what? The book says ... no! The book says that when no number is listed the character can perform Death Blows at will (no Natural roll required), and this devastating attack counts as two actions. The two actions part is connected to the sentence of performing it without natural number, not stand alone. I believe this is significant. While I can't prove this is fact, and arguments can be made to the contrary, I believe my interpretation makes sense. Note: Again, PF doesn't have any Hand to Hand styles with Deathblow not requiring a natural number. This is quite likely a result of another cut and paste job (again, quite possibly from Ninjas & Superspies). Though I have applied this rule to Demon Death Blow of the Palladin (which requires two attacks for note), this is not fact. It is opinion and the way I have done things, but there is disagreement towards it being by the rules. Though go ahead and read the "Death Blow against Supernatural Beings ..." section, which sounds rather similar to the Demon Death Blow, no? Mainly just that DDB of the Palladin is limited to one type of foe, that's all.

3) Deathblow requiring a Natural roll (Natural 20 for PF styles) can be done in a single action, and therefore doesn't have to be declared. Or I guess you could declare it before every action if you're going for it, but doesn't change anything if you don't get that roll (so the only penalty will be making you tired of saying it every turn). This, again, is only personal belief. But, if you believe point 2, then this is a natural conclusion (for me).

Book and page please.

[Prysus]

Book and page please.

Greetings and Salutations. As I said, look in most of the main books as the wording is very rarely different. Though, I'll provide my usual source for checking rules (Palladium Fantasy; 2nd Edition, and for this particular reference is Page 44) and then my source where I normally double check rules these days (Rifts: Ultimate Edition; and for this particular reference is page 345). The wording for these two are nearly identical.

This attack is often limited in hand to hand combat to the roll of a "Natural" (no bonuses apply) high strike number; i.e. death blow on a Natural 18-20.

There's a few differences, but same meaning, same periods. That is one sentence. Then the next sentence reads ...

Whenever the words "death blow" are presented without limitation, the character can use a death strike whenever he desires, however, such a devastating attack counts as two melee attacks/actions.

I broke up the two sentences (though they do follow each other) to better separate the thought (I personally consider this two separate uses for the same power). Note how this one is a fluent sentence. There is no period or break. For me, this makes perfect sense. If a character needs to rely on a "Natural" number, making it cost two actions feels unnecessarily gimping the power. I don't feel it costs two actions or needs to be called anymore than a Critical Strike. I don't know anyone who makes a player call for a Critical Strike each roll for instance, because I think that would be silly.

Now, the "Natural" number puts in a prerequisite. This is something that you only have a 5% (up to 15% if you're REALLY good) of actually succeeding. Though if you can do this without limit, this needs some type of limiter, right? I mean, hence the need for taking two actions. There is a major difference in the ability of the two, hence the difference in how many attacks it takes. Sure, this guy who can do it without limit can call upon it whenever he wants, but it requires time and concentration (two attacks).

With that said, I'll admit HU2; page 67 does have a slightly different look. The first part is effectively the same, but the second sentence is a bit different.

...however, he must announce his intentions to use this attack. This devastating attack counts as two melee attacks.

This one makes the "counts as two melee attacks" as a separate sentence. It could apply to both (for note, it also really only mentions the second one needs to be declared). However, it could also still only apply to the proceeding sentence/version and isn't as clear. If this were the only setting, I'd agree it could be far more questionable. However, when looking at PF and R:UE, it seems more clear to me (and R:UE is the newest rule book I believe).

Anyways, those are the quotes and page numbers. If you don't have any of those books, let me know which book you are using and I'll look at that one too. I do agree you could interpret it differently, but I believe mine is not only valid, but logical and the correct way. That's, of course, my opinion. If someone reads it and thinks I'm still wrong, that is their right. My main goal is to at least show the other way of reading it and see/comprehend it (even if you don't agree). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.


P.S. I say "you" in the most general sense. You being whoever is reading this and not any poster in particular.

[Cinos]

Now, the "Natural" number puts in a prerequisite. This is something that you only have a 5% (up to 15% if you're REALLY good) of actually succeeding. Though if you can do this without limit, this needs some type of limiter, right? I mean, hence the need for taking two actions. There is a major difference in the ability of the two, hence the difference in how many attacks it takes. Sure, this guy who can do it without limit can call upon it whenever he wants, but it requires time and concentration (two attacks).

Less actually, since you'll have to count your actual chance to hit, 15% is assuming attacking a helpless target.

I make it unannounced, trained killers develop these moves as a reflex. Get into a bar fight BAM death blow. Oppose. . . I didn't mean . . . WHAT HAVE I DONE!?!?!?!

Makes for some interesting twists.