Games and bragging rights

[Rockwolf66]

OK, I've seen a few of these threads before but so far never on the Palladium board.

When is is apropriate to well brag about how cool your game is. I mean some people play rifts as a gritty post apocalyptic wasteland where unless you are an adventurer or a soldier of a major kingdom one is lucky to see 1950s technology. Fights often end up with PCs takeing serious damage and generally everyone plays in character.

Then on the other end you have games where the house rules turn all the PCs into over the top characters who can easily curbstomp the Splogorth or anyone else for that matter. Basically turning the game into some munchkin fantasy.


Personally I would say the first sort of game is the sort of thing where one could honestly take pride in playing while the second could possibly be cool for an epic one shot game. Other people should post what they think.

[Killer Cyborg]

I had a similar thread back in 2007. Here's my post/essay from there, put in spoilers because it's pretty long.

viewtopic.php?p=1612950#p1612950

Spoiler:

So back in high-school I knew this kid who played AD&D. I also played AD&D, but I never played with him.
Why not?
Because he was a Munchkin (although this was long before I'd ever heard the term).
He was more munchkin than I was, which was kind of saying something.

At the time, this was freshman year, IIRC, I had a character that I had leveled up from a first level D&D wizard into an Immortal character using the original D&D boxed sets.
I had leveled him, but I didn't exactly earn it.
See, back in the day, you earned xp for the gold you collected. It was only like 10% of the gold you'd get in xp, but that mattered.
There was this official Solo Adventure module called "Latham's Gold" and I either found a loophole or misunderstood how to run the thing, and I ended up finding (or creating) a situation where I could keep going back to this one point and get gold every time I went there (it was on a volcano that spat out molten gold bits now and then).
So I decided that my character would stake a claim and fill his ship full of this gold, effectively getting an unlimited supply of cash, and therefore an unlimited supply of XP.
Later I either found or created some rules for becomming an actual God, and played out a war between the gods, with my character becoming one of the major surviving Gods, who owned pretty much all the cool artifacts in the Legends & Lore book.
Munchy as hell, in hindsight, but this is probably why the suggested age for the game was 12 and up. I did all of that pretty much during Jr. High and before (although some still in early high school).

Then there was this other kid.
His favorite character was also a god, only he didn't put in any of the work that I had (which still wasn't enough to actually earn the power my character had).
He claimed that his character had defeated Hades in single combat, and had taken Hades' powers and job after killing the god.
Which wasn't something that fit with the rules of the game, and it turned out not to be the only area where this kid tossed the rules out the window.
For example, he ignored armor class.
He'd roll a strike roll on a d6; an odd number meant the attacker hit, an even number meant that the attacker missed.
And he tended to reroll misses for his character.

All of this pissed me off, because it was cheating. Hell, it was cheating on top of cheating; not only did he ignore important rules of the game in favor of illogical crap that gave anybody a 50+% chance of successfully striking a god, regardless of AC, he then proceeded to ignore his own rules and just hit every time.
Which made me wonder why he even bothered playing the game.

Of course, one of the reasons why he bothered playing was for bragging rights. He loved to talk about how cool his character (his frickin' cheat of a character) was, and when he got his first car the license plate was "Hades 1" or something.

Which pissed me off even more, because he didn't actually have any bragging rights; he hadn't done a damn thing worth bragging about.
At least I'd put in the time and effort or running a proper battle when my character took on gods and killed them, even if the methods I used to get to the battle in the first place were questionable at best, and I used the official rules of the game (as best as I understood them at that age) whenever I could.

In the end, neither one of us exactly stood out as shining beacons of proper game-play, but in comparison to him, my playing style looked pretty close to fair.

So why am I telling you all this?
Well, for one thing Nekira recently posted a thread about somebody in her gaming circles that she discovered is on the Sex Offenders Registry.
That reminded me of this guy, because he went away to prison a couple years ago for screwing (or trying to screw) a 12 year-old relative (or something like that).
So this guy's been on my mind.

The other reason is because the most recent thread about Snipers in Rifts has me thinking about Munchkinism and the causes of it.
Basically, a lot of people want to play snipers in Rifts who can reliably (or constantly one-shot kill their enemies.
There's nothing inherently wrong with this; that's what snipers try to do.
The probem is that these people want to one-shot kill opponents who are supposed to be significant foes. Borgs, Supernatural Creatures, even people in Heavy EBA.
I address some of the problems with this sort of thinking in that other thread, and I don't want to rehash them here.
(So if you disagree with me on this topic, which I know some of you will, that's cool... just don't clutter up this thread discussing it).

When I'm running, if a player wants to be a Sniper, that's great.
If he wants to one-shot kill enemies, that's great too.
I'll send him up against enemies that he can one-shot kill.
bandits in Plastic Man or Urban Warrior. Light MDC demons and monsters. SDC foes. Guys with non-environmental armor that can be taken out with a good headshot.
What I will NOT do is to create some sort of super-powerful sniping rifle that is capable of killing a heavily armored (or high MDC) opponent in a single shot.
And I will NOT create sniping rules that can bypass EBA, or create rules for sniper shots penetrating armor before the MDC is depleted.
Because all of those things miss the point; those foes are supposed to be tough.

Which is, I believe, why people (some of them, at least) want to one-shot kill these foes; for the bragging rights of how easily they took down a supposedly powerful enemy.
There's nothing wrong with bragging about taking out a powerful enemy, IF you came by it honestly.
But if you didn't come by it honestly, then it's just...
lame.
And Wrong.

Like that guy bragging about defeating Hades, when he double-cheated his ass off to do it, and didn't even expend any effort in the process.
What's there to brag about?
"I just imagined that I did something cool!!" is NOT worth bragging about.

Sure, a lot of people might say that that's all role-playing IS; imagining that you're doing something cool.
But it's not. Imagining that you've done something cool is a part of the game (like when you roll a nat 20 and kill an imaginary demon that was about to kill an imaginary ally of your imaginary character), but that's not all there is to it.
It's also about imagining you've done something stupid or inept (like when you botch an easy skill check and end up falling off a ladder or driving into a ditch or you roll a nat 1 and end up missing a 20' tall creature that's standing 10' away, with it's back turned).
The dice, the game master, the rules of the game, and YOU all (in theory) keep the game from just being the mental masturbation of pretending that you've done something cool.
You can actually accomplish things in role-playing.
You can play well, you can play smart, you can roll well, and you can and should get to brag about these things.

If somebody tells me that they one-shot killed a full conversion Borg, I'm not going to be impressed. All that means is that they cheated, or that they had a character that is so legitimately powerful that the Borg wasn't even close to a worthy challenge ("Man, when you've got a Synchro-cannon, Full Conversion Borgs aint' nothin'!")
On the other hand, if you tell me that your juicer in standard Juicer Plate, armed with a JA-11, slowly picked off a Full Conversion Borg in a deadly game of cat-and-bionic-mouse going by the official rules of the game, THEN I'll be impressed.
THEN you should brag about it.

What it comes down to is that a lot of people want to take out powerful foes without facing significant risk of losing.
The problem being that if you have to buff up your character (or nerf the enemy) to absurd degrees in order to win, you haven't really accomplished anything worth doing.

It's like saying, "I defeated Mike Tyson!!"
Except that you only did it because
a) He was tied up and gagged.
or
b) You had a shotgun.
or
c) Both A and B.

The way the contest is done completely undoes the point of having the contest in the first place.
Like defeating Hades using some screwed-up house-rules combined with straight cheating.

[Rockwolf66]

Thanks for the reminder KC.

I guess the reason I've posted this is that there are a few threads on this and other boards right now where people have been talking about seemingly Monty Haul type games where cannonicly Superpowerful villans get taken out like mooks by Pc's in an absurdly shortened time. Really while I do like games where I can ****kick a major villan from time to time frankly I'd much rather play the half dead trooper trying to assassinate the enemy general in his own tent without his army using me for target practice.

Heck the last "VIP Snatch adventure I played ended up with me a point of damage away from being dead as a doornail.

[Rallan]

There is no such thing as bragging rights in RPG campaigns. Anyone who thinks otherwise should probably take up a sport or get a date or something

[Spinachcat]

If your group has a blast being Uber-Munchkins, you are doing it right.
If your group has a blast being Table Actors, you are doing it right.
If your group has a blast doing anything with the game, you are doing it right.

The only "bragging rights" worth anything are the following:

1) Did you introduce the game to a noob who then became a gamer?
2) Did you run some events at a convention or game store that got a bunch of people excited about your favorite game?
3) Did your group have loads of fun?
4) Did you avoid useless geek arguments and just focus on having fun tossing dice making believe you are an elf with a giant robot that fires magical missiles?

Unfortunately for many people, life is tough. Not everyone's life roxxors (I'm lucky). So if you as a gamer can give a few hours of laughter and enjoyment to other gamers, then you have done something worth "bragging" about.

[The Dark Elf]

If your group has a blast being Uber-Munchkins, you are doing it right.
If your group has a blast being Table Actors, you are doing it right.
If your group has a blast doing anything with the game, you are doing it right.

The only "bragging rights" worth anything are the following:

1) Did you introduce the game to a noob who then became a gamer?
2) Did you run some events at a convention or game store that got a bunch of people excited about your favorite game?
3) Did your group have loads of fun?
4) Did you avoid useless geek arguments and just focus on having fun tossing dice making believe you are an elf with a giant robot that fires magical missiles?

Unfortunately for many people, life is tough. Not everyone's life roxxors (I'm lucky). So if you as a gamer can give a few hours of laughter and enjoyment to other gamers, then you have done something worth "bragging" about.

First bit - agreed.

Second bit - you missed out playing in one of Carmen's games and surviving!

[Killer Cyborg]

There is no such thing as bragging rights in RPG campaigns. Anyone who thinks otherwise should probably take up a sport or get a date or something

I'm sorry... how is it that playing a sport gives you bragging rights, but playing a Role-Playing Game doesn't?
Is hitting a ball with a stick REALLY any more significant than coming up with a clever strategy for imaginary people?
Is outwitting a fish REALLY more significant than outwitting a GM or another player?
Is chucking a ball through a hoop REALLY so much more impressive than putting yourself in the metaphorical shoes of somebody with a different personality and value system from yourself, and viewing the world (even an imaginary world) through somebody else's eyes?

I don't see it.
Not unless you're automatically prizing physical activity over mental activity, in which case I suppose you'd find LARPing to be more brag-worthy than chess.


(As for getting a date being brag-worthy, that would depend on the who/what/how/when/why of the situation)

[Killer Cyborg]

If your group has a blast being Uber-Munchkins, you are doing it right.
If your group has a blast being Table Actors, you are doing it right.
If your group has a blast doing anything with the game, you are doing it right.

The only "bragging rights" worth anything are the following:

1) Did you introduce the game to a noob who then became a gamer?
2) Did you run some events at a convention or game store that got a bunch of people excited about your favorite game?
3) Did your group have loads of fun?
4) Did you avoid useless geek arguments and just focus on having fun tossing dice making believe you are an elf with a giant robot that fires magical missiles?

Unfortunately for many people, life is tough. Not everyone's life roxxors (I'm lucky). So if you as a gamer can give a few hours of laughter and enjoyment to other gamers, then you have done something worth "bragging" about.

Opinions vary.

Here's mine:

Spoiler:

Sometimes, playing a game isn't fun. Sometimes it's work. Sometimes it's even hard work.
A game does not always cease to be worthwhile when it ceases to be fun; there are more purposes to playing games than just "having fun".

Why does a cat play with string?
There are several answers:
1. Because it is fun.
This answers the immediate personal gratification level of the question "Why". But it is not nearly the whole answer.
2. Because the cat is honing the skills that it needs in order to survive.
This is the long-term answer. The more important one, because it also answers the question of why people sometimes play games that are not particularly fun for them.

It answers the question of why living beings enjoy games in the first place:
Those who played games sharpened their survival skills, and were therefore more likely to survive and procreate.
Those who did not play games did not maintain the edge that they needed to survive, and were mostly wiped out.

The point of playing games, the long-run point, the real point, is to help us survive in the world. This includes all games from Tag to Chess to Baseball to Role-Playing Games, like Rifts.
Sure, many of the specific details of the game are not likely to ever directly help us out in our lives. Rolling a d20 is not likely to help us provide food for ourselves and our families. Knowing the armor and weapon types of a scientifically inaccurate post-apocalyptic future world is likely never going to come in handy when trying to fill out a job application or resume.
But, for that matter, that kitten is probably never going to get attacked by string when he's out in the wild.
Games don't have to be 100% accurate depictions of the problems and dangers that we face in the world in order to help us prepare for them.
Games teach us strategies, skills, and modes of thinking that can be applied to any number of real-world problems.
Maybe role-playing a character with a different personality from your own, even an uncomfortably different personality, can give you key insight into the way that other people think.
Maybe dealing with Cumulative Upkeep cards in Magic the Gathering helps you understand how and why you should pay off debts and bills on time.
Maybe a standard chess maneuver can be applied to office politics.
Maybe the reflexes picked up from football, or even dodgeball, can help you get out of the path of an oncoming car, avoiding a fatal car wreck.
The reason to play games is not simply because it is fun, it is because if we do not play games then we could well die.
Or simply not succeed as well at life as we would like.

All that being said, "having fun" IS a very important factor. It the carrot on the end of the pole that keeps us going. It keeps us interested, even if doled out in sporadic doses and only over the long term.
(Ever had a camping trip that was hell to go through at the time, but is fun to look back on? What about a role-playing adventure?)
If a game is NEVER fun, then people simply won't play it. Any benefit of the game, if any, will be lost simply because nobody will play it.
Games do need to be fun, more often than not.
But don't ever imagine that "Fun" is the only reason that games exist; it's not.

Which is why it annoys me to no end when people say stuff like, "As long as you're having fun, you're doing it right!!"
Because that is simply not true.
If it were true, then Olympic medals would be handed out to the people who have the most fun, not the most skill. The world chess champion of all time would be a 10 month old from Pittsburg who had an incredibly splendid time chewing and drooling on his father's chess set. The NBA would be filled with children who can't shoot a basket to save their life, but who have a blast anyway.
Doing things right often does mean that you are having fun, but the reverse does not hold true.

[Spinachcat]

I'm sorry... how is it that playing a sport gives you bragging rights, but playing a Role-Playing Game doesn't?

Society values prowess at competitive activities.

RPGs are cooperative and nobody "wins".

It's why artistic and acting talents aren't valued unless they have financial renumeration. If you are making money at your art, then the amount of money you make is your "wins" and thus allows bragging right.

I don't agree with this notion, but its certainly one of the key rules of society.

[Natasha]

If your group has a blast being Uber-Munchkins, you are doing it right.
If your group has a blast being Table Actors, you are doing it right.
If your group has a blast doing anything with the game, you are doing it right.

The only "bragging rights" worth anything are the following:

1) Did you introduce the game to a noob who then became a gamer?
2) Did you run some events at a convention or game store that got a bunch of people excited about your favorite game?
3) Did your group have loads of fun?
4) Did you avoid useless geek arguments and just focus on having fun tossing dice making believe you are an elf with a giant robot that fires magical missiles?

Unfortunately for many people, life is tough. Not everyone's life roxxors (I'm lucky). So if you as a gamer can give a few hours of laughter and enjoyment to other gamers, then you have done something worth "bragging" about.

Opinions vary.

Here's mine:

Spoiler:

Sometimes, playing a game isn't fun. Sometimes it's work. Sometimes it's even hard work.
A game does not always cease to be worthwhile when it ceases to be fun; there are more purposes to playing games than just "having fun".

Why does a cat play with string?
There are several answers:
1. Because it is fun.
This answers the immediate personal gratification level of the question "Why". But it is not nearly the whole answer.
2. Because the cat is honing the skills that it needs in order to survive.
This is the long-term answer. The more important one, because it also answers the question of why people sometimes play games that are not particularly fun for them.

It answers the question of why living beings enjoy games in the first place:
Those who played games sharpened their survival skills, and were therefore more likely to survive and procreate.
Those who did not play games did not maintain the edge that they needed to survive, and were mostly wiped out.

The point of playing games, the long-run point, the real point, is to help us survive in the world. This includes all games from Tag to Chess to Baseball to Role-Playing Games, like Rifts.
Sure, many of the specific details of the game are not likely to ever directly help us out in our lives. Rolling a d20 is not likely to help us provide food for ourselves and our families. Knowing the armor and weapon types of a scientifically inaccurate post-apocalyptic future world is likely never going to come in handy when trying to fill out a job application or resume.
But, for that matter, that kitten is probably never going to get attacked by string when he's out in the wild.
Games don't have to be 100% accurate depictions of the problems and dangers that we face in the world in order to help us prepare for them.
Games teach us strategies, skills, and modes of thinking that can be applied to any number of real-world problems.
Maybe role-playing a character with a different personality from your own, even an uncomfortably different personality, can give you key insight into the way that other people think.
Maybe dealing with Cumulative Upkeep cards in Magic the Gathering helps you understand how and why you should pay off debts and bills on time.
Maybe a standard chess maneuver can be applied to office politics.
Maybe the reflexes picked up from football, or even dodgeball, can help you get out of the path of an oncoming car, avoiding a fatal car wreck.
The reason to play games is not simply because it is fun, it is because if we do not play games then we could well die.
Or simply not succeed as well at life as we would like.

All that being said, "having fun" IS a very important factor. It the carrot on the end of the pole that keeps us going. It keeps us interested, even if doled out in sporadic doses and only over the long term.
(Ever had a camping trip that was hell to go through at the time, but is fun to look back on? What about a role-playing adventure?)
If a game is NEVER fun, then people simply won't play it. Any benefit of the game, if any, will be lost simply because nobody will play it.
Games do need to be fun, more often than not.
But don't ever imagine that "Fun" is the only reason that games exist; it's not.

Which is why it annoys me to no end when people say stuff like, "As long as you're having fun, you're doing it right!!"
Because that is simply not true.
If it were true, then Olympic medals would be handed out to the people who have the most fun, not the most skill. The world chess champion of all time would be a 10 month old from Pittsburg who had an incredibly splendid time chewing and drooling on his father's chess set. The NBA would be filled with children who can't shoot a basket to save their life, but who have a blast anyway.
Doing things right often does mean that you are having fun, but the reverse does not hold true.

Hm. I can't say that I follow you. I guess I don't see how how having fun can mean you're doing things wrong.

[Jorel]

I'm married to a hot, intelligent gamer. Is that enough of an achievement for "bragging rights"?
My 7 year old beats me at Risk. I'm not sure if that's something I should brag about.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hm. I can't say that I follow you. I guess I don't see how how having fun can mean you're doing things wrong.

Your third sentence proves the second, because that's not what I said.

[Natasha]

Hm. I can't say that I follow you. I guess I don't see how how having fun can mean you're doing things wrong.

Your third sentence proves the second, because that's not what I said.

Mind clarifying what you said, then - what is the "reverse"?

[Damian Magecraft]

I'm married to a hot, intelligent gamer. Is that enough of an achievement for "bragging rights"?
My 7 year old beats me at Risk. I'm not sure if that's something I should brag about.

Depends are you proficient at risk otherwise? if so then yes it is brag worthy. It means your son is exhibiting signs of strategic intelligence.

[The Dark Elf]

I'm married to a hot, intelligent gamer. Is that enough of an achievement for "bragging rights"?
My 7 year old beats me at Risk. I'm not sure if that's something I should brag about.

Even finding a hot gamer is bragging rights

Then actually having sex (at all) for a gamer is bragging rights.

Tying her into a marriage contract totally discredits all the cudos you just made as she will surely make you game less and soon when you're gaming that your character is in a brothel it will be the closest you've been getting to having sex recently. nvm, you've got a kid and that's living prrof that you did "it" at least once.

[Jorel]

I'm married to a hot, intelligent gamer. Is that enough of an achievement for "bragging rights"?
My 7 year old beats me at Risk. I'm not sure if that's something I should brag about.

Even finding a hot gamer is bragging rights

Then actually having sex (at all) for a gamer is bragging rights.

Tying her into a marriage contract totally discredits all the cudos you just made as she will surely make you game less and soon when you're gaming that your character is in a brothel it will be the closest you've been getting to having sex recently. nvm, you've got a kid and that's living prrof that you did "it" at least once.

You couldn't be more wrong about the last part. I now game more than I did in the past 10 years, though she did play more games than me at the POH. Still doing "it" usually at least once a day, and been married for over three years (2 kids, though the 7 year old is from my previous marriage). I never really had a problem getting laid, so as GM/gamer I didn't have to roleplay it. Most of us were awkward in High School, myself included, but the people I roleplayed with didn't do a whole lot of that type of gaming.
Maybe she doesn't have more action figures than I do, but she has like 50 Dr. Who action figures, and a lot from Star Trek, and also a Legolas Barbie. Mine are mostly Star Wars and Robotech, but we do share a Kevin Smith (director) action figure. Not to mention all the spaceships all over the living room. Star wars (40) and Star Trek (25) Micro-machines, a large Enterprise ship and a smaller one in a snow globe as well as an Enterprise Bridge playset, a Tardis playset, 10 ships from Battlestar Galactica including a large Battlestar, and also 4 larger Veritechs and some cyclones. We have lots of toys, and games. We are very happy and proud of our 18 month old. Pretty sure those are all things worth "bragging" about.

[The Dark Elf]

You couldn't be more wrong about the last part. I now game more than I did in the past 10 years, though she did play more games than me at the POH. Still doing "it" usually at least once a day

I met you both at the POH and thought you were nice...

I now hate you both.

[Jorel]

You couldn't be more wrong about the last part. I now game more than I did in the past 10 years, though she did play more games than me at the POH. Still doing "it" usually at least once a day

I met you both at the POH and thought you were nice...

I now hate you both.

Isn't that what bragging is for.

[Rallan]

There is no such thing as bragging rights in RPG campaigns. Anyone who thinks otherwise should probably take up a sport or get a date or something

I'm sorry... how is it that playing a sport gives you bragging rights, but playing a Role-Playing Game doesn't?
Is hitting a ball with a stick REALLY any more significant than coming up with a clever strategy for imaginary people?
Is outwitting a fish REALLY more significant than outwitting a GM or another player?
Is chucking a ball through a hoop REALLY so much more impressive than putting yourself in the metaphorical shoes of somebody with a different personality and value system from yourself, and viewing the world (even an imaginary world) through somebody else's eyes?

I don't see it.
Not unless you're automatically prizing physical activity over mental activity, in which case I suppose you'd find LARPing to be more brag-worthy than chess.


(As for getting a date being brag-worthy, that would depend on the who/what/how/when/why of the situation)

Playing a sport or going out on a date don't give you bragging rights either. They just get you out of the house so you can pick up a sense of perspective on life

[The Dark Elf]

OK, I've seen a few of these threads before but so far never on the Palladium board.

When is is apropriate to well brag about how cool your game is. I mean some people play rifts as a gritty post apocalyptic wasteland where unless you are an adventurer or a soldier of a major kingdom one is lucky to see 1950s technology. Fights often end up with PCs takeing serious damage and generally everyone plays in character.

Then on the other end you have games where the house rules turn all the PCs into over the top characters who can easily curbstomp the Splogorth or anyone else for that matter. Basically turning the game into some munchkin fantasy.


Personally I would say the first sort of game is the sort of thing where one could honestly take pride in playing while the second could possibly be cool for an epic one shot game. Other people should post what they think.

In answer to the real question, I would say pls post anything. There are little PB related articles for me to read and I am interested in any games you've run and what happened. If it stars off not tickling my fancy then I will stop reading but at least its there!

Brag away!

[Vrykolas2k]

I'm married to a hot, intelligent gamer. Is that enough of an achievement for "bragging rights"?
My 7 year old beats me at Risk. I'm not sure if that's something I should brag about.

Both are.
Hey, you've got a smart kid that you've taught the basics of world-wide strategy to.