Attacker moving really fast

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE 361

Shooting Wild: Has a penalty of -6 to strike and applies even to trained weapons experts when the character is terrified, angry/enraged, panicked, off balance, drunk, shooting from a moving vehicles/platform/horseback, spraying an area, shooting while under heavy fire himself, and while running, leaping, dodging, falling or hanging upside-down.

[Damian Magecraft]

RUE 361
[quote=]Shooting Wild: Has a penalty of -6 to strike and applies even to trained weapons experts when the character is terrified, angry/enraged, panicked, off balance, drunk, shooting from a moving vehicles/platform/horseback, spraying an area, shooting while under heavy fire himself, and while running, leaping, dodging, falling or hanging upside-down.

[/quote]
yeah what he said...

[glitterboy2098]

i'd argue that weapons tied into a units Targeting computer wouldn't suffer the "shooting wild due to movement" penalties, since the TC would help adjust the aim to compensate for the units own movement. i'd say it should only really apply to weapons fired without such aids. like firing a pistol or rifle freehand from a moving car, or the doorguns on a military helicopter.

[Damian Magecraft]

i'd argue that weapons tied into a units Targeting computer wouldn't suffer the "shooting wild due to movement" penalties, since the TC would help adjust the aim to compensate for the units own movement. i'd say it should only really apply to weapons fired without such aids. like firing a pistol or rifle freehand from a moving car, or the doorguns on a military helicopter.

from a logic point of view I could agree with this statement.
But...
From a purely game mechanics point...
Targeting computers only assist in tracking and identification of enemy targets. (RUE. Pg. 271 section on power armor)
There are no benefits "mechanically" speaking.
just below the TC point is laser targeting which adds a bonus of +1 to strike with long range weapons. But specifically excludes hand to hand combat and SAMAS.

[dragonfett]

Don't forget that you take penalties to strike a moving target as well. -1 plus another -1 for every 50 MPH over 20 IIRC.

[Damian Magecraft]

Don't forget that you take penalties to strike a moving target as well. -1 plus another -1 for every 50 MPH over 20 IIRC.

can anyone recall the Pg. number for this reference?

[drewkitty ~..~]

RUE 361
[quote=]Shooting Wild: Has a penalty of -6 to strike and applies even to trained weapons experts when the character is terrified, angry/enraged, panicked, off balance, drunk, shooting from a moving vehicles/platform/horseback, spraying an area, shooting while under heavy fire himself, and while running, leaping, dodging, falling or hanging upside-down.

yeah what he said...

Remember, there are classes (and skills) that ignore some of the above conditions as conditions for shooting wild when using their chosen weapon. e.g.: Longbow-man when using a longbow.

[Damian Magecraft]

RUE 361
[quote=]Shooting Wild: Has a penalty of -6 to strike and applies even to trained weapons experts when the character is terrified, angry/enraged, panicked, off balance, drunk, shooting from a moving vehicles/platform/horseback, spraying an area, shooting while under heavy fire himself, and while running, leaping, dodging, falling or hanging upside-down.

yeah what he said...

Remember, there are classes (and skills) that ignore some of the above conditions as conditions for shooting wild when using their chosen weapon. e.g.: Longbow-man when using a longbow.

those exceptions are covered by their respective class descriptions. but yes good to remember.

[Shawn Merrow]

Don't forget that you take penalties to strike a moving target as well. -1 plus another -1 for every 50 MPH over 20 IIRC.

can anyone recall the Pg. number for this reference?

RUE page 361 under "Quick Referance - Bonuses & Penalties."

[Killer Cyborg]

i'd argue that weapons tied into a units Targeting computer wouldn't suffer the "shooting wild due to movement" penalties, since the TC would help adjust the aim to compensate for the units own movement. i'd say it should only really apply to weapons fired without such aids. like firing a pistol or rifle freehand from a moving car, or the doorguns on a military helicopter.

Yeah power armor and weapon systems both blur that rule to me also.

I mean, basically the main tactical advantage of SAMUS armor is their mobility... like the whole circle strafe tactic depicted in the combat example.

Do modern fighter jets always shoot wild at each other?

I agree that this would make sense, but I can't find anything about it in the rules.

[Natasha]

Welcome to Rifts?

[Jorel]

I kinda think if your moving and using a targeting/combat computer to track and aim, then it shouldn't be wild. There are plenty of instances where I could see that not being the case. I think if it is -6 because it is wild then it should be offset by a bigger bonus from any targeting systems.

[Damian Magecraft]

I kinda think if your moving and using a targeting/combat computer to track and aim, then it shouldn't be wild. There are plenty of instances where I could see that not being the case. I think if it is -6 because it is wild then it should be offset by a bigger bonus from any targeting systems.

again no rules for it...
Just because we feel that it should work that way does not mean it actually will work that way.

That said house rule it if you want.
I have an HR for if we (the game group) feel we want that level of detail in our combats. (which is not all that often...)we tend to down play the combat in favor of the storyline and character interaction.
simple HR for a TC is that it adds a +3 to strike (my group do not believe that a target comp will completely over ride wild fire) with linked in weapon systems. or make it so it adds a +6 if you feel that is more appropriate. (just remember this bonus will still apply even when wild fire does not apply.)

[glitterboy2098]

the reason i HR the way i do is the fact that most onboard targeting systems don't give a high enough bonus to offset the shooting wild penalty. so i HR it so there is a point to using vehicles in combat. otherwise, the body armored infantryman is uber, and all others suck.

[glitterboy2098]

maybe back in ww1, ww2, or Korea. where you had to figure out deflection and such yourself.
by vietnam you had electronic systems that calculated the aimpoint of your guns, and compensated for your own movement to show where to aim (something applied to bombers in ww2 and korea, but not applied to fighters unti lthe advent of the HUD). modern planes use improved models of these systems, and tie them into radar systems for highly accurate ranging and targeting.

it's the same for ships, tanks, and most intergrated weapons systems. since the 1960's, shooting without a system to improve your aim is basically a "why the hell would you do that, idiot?" situation. pintle mount weapons (like the MG's on the top of tanks, or the MG's in the side hatches of helicopters) would be the only real cases of such..and even then, since the 1990's we've been moving to get rid of those too, with targeting aids or remote weapon systems..

[Damian Magecraft]

So is it true that two fighter jets are always firing wild at each other?

going by the Rules as Written. Yes.

[Natasha]

So is it true that two fighter jets are always firing wild at each other?

going by the Rules as Written. Yes.

Even if they're traveling the same line.

[drewkitty ~..~]

this would be a good time for ppl to watch the dog fight in the last episode of Macross plus.

[Damian Magecraft]

So is it true that two fighter jets are always firing wild at each other?

going by the Rules as Written. Yes.

Even if they're traveling the same line.

I'm calling stupid on this then...

I think maybe I would submit then that the spirit of the law of "shooting wild" is intended for weapons NOT assisted by the weapon system's skill.

Sorry the RAW does not support this interpretation...now If you wish to house rule it feel free.

[Damian Magecraft]

While I believe that any and all Power Armor would have built in ways to at the least remove the "shooting wild" penalty.
Here's an example using 2 - 2nd level Samas Pilots dog-fighting: single shots only....bursts remove some bonuses

Bonuses: RCE: +2 at range, WSS +1, WP HMDW +1 @ 2, LT +1 = +5
Penalties: Speed 300mph -6, EM -1, SW -6 = -13

Total = -8
Need an 8 or better to hit at range, which means they would need to roll a 16 or better to hit each other. This would drop to 13+ @ level 10+.

It might be just me but I think that might be just a little too high. But as GM's there is no complete ruling on this so you can keep or remove the shooting wild part as you see fit.

this sounds about right to me.

[dragonfett]

What dropping all penalties and bonuses? That way it isn't insanely hard, but it doesn't make things to easy either.

[Damian Magecraft]

The Old Style Samas has 250 MDC on the main body, and does 1D4 MD with a single shot (2MD on average).
-With a 75% miss chance on a single shot with 5 attacks per round = 2.5 MD per round = 100 rounds of combat. Something about making a player roll around 500 times just to kill one thing is kinda absurd to me.
-Switching to Burst makes it go faster even though the miss chance goes up to 80% = 20 MD / R = 12.5 Rounds. Still around 63 rolls to kill something.

For me its not about the rolling the combat (though 500 rolls is absurd / 63 is slightly better) and group fire will cut that down a bit. But for me its the "fictional fact" that High Tech gear has 75-80% chance to miss! Something like that just doesn't seem right to me. Some players / GMs like Damian above have no issue with it and that's completely fine, while others like myself don't like all of it (Hence why I'd pull the Shooting Wild part but keep the rest).
But Ultimately its up to the GM or your players (if you want to ask them) in how you want to run it.

OK the sheer number of rolls can be a bit much...
The reason I am ok with it like that is its not really all that fictional; I have had experience with how dog fighting works; and that "to hit" ratio does sound close (well as close as we can get to duplicating reality with random die rolls any way.)

Like I said earlier having the TC remove shooting wild I am not sure is the best solution...
TCs can be installed in Borgs and Androids as well...
If you allow it for PA and Vehicles do Borgs and human sized bots get to take advantage of it too? How does that one rule change effect the entire scope of the system...
House ruling is tricky business we have to watch out for the cascade effect.
And keep in mind the "law" of consistency as well.

I prefer the reduction of negatives method currently but am willing to look at the numbers for other methods as well.
As long as it is understood that it is a House Rule we are discussing and not canon.
Sorry that had to be said...
too many folks like to skim and jump to conclusions in these parts.

[Jorel]

I would say the computer would have to do the firing for it to fully negate the moving penalty. If it was anything else firing it, I would reduce the penalty greatly.

[Jorel]

I would say the computer would have to do the firing for it to fully negate the moving penalty. If it was anything else firing it, I would reduce the penalty greatly.

Actually I ran across this in the GM's guide:

GM Guide Pg 42: Shooting Wild:

"3 - When shooting from a moving object; i.e. a moving car, hover vehicle, horse or other moving platform. This DOES NOT INCLUDE the firing of weapon systems built into power armor, robots, cyborgs, or mounted weapons or turrets built into combat vehicles. Nor does it apply to super-heroes and mutants or monsters that can shoot energy beams or similar powers, from their natural bodies. This rule applies to people who are shooting a hand-held weapon from a moving object."

Thank you for finding that. Makes sense to me.

[Jorel]

I kinda think if your moving and using a targeting/combat computer to track and aim, then it shouldn't be wild. There are plenty of instances where I could see that not being the case. I think if it is -6 because it is wild then it should be offset by a bigger bonus from any targeting systems.

again no rules for it...
Just because we feel that it should work that way does not mean it actually will work that way.

That said house rule it if you want.
I have an HR for if we (the game group) feel we want that level of detail in our combats. (which is not all that often...)we tend to down play the combat in favor of the storyline and character interaction.
simple HR for a TC is that it adds a +3 to strike (my group do not believe that a target comp will completely over ride wild fire) with linked in weapon systems. or make it so it adds a +6 if you feel that is more appropriate. (just remember this bonus will still apply even when wild fire does not apply.)

No rules huh? Maybe you should step down with the rest of us, and actually research instead of making things up.

Warning: User warned for trolling. - NMI

[Killer Cyborg]

Nice find, Kagatos.

Of course, that still leaves the hand-held railguns of stuff like the SAMAS in debate.

[Jorel]

Nice find, Kagatos.

Of course, that still leaves the hand-held railguns of stuff like the SAMAS in debate.

I think they have the option to be fired automatically (SAMAS), or manually, not sure though. I'd say unless it is a person pulling the "trigger" it should qualify.

[Damian Magecraft]

I kinda think if your moving and using a targeting/combat computer to track and aim, then it shouldn't be wild. There are plenty of instances where I could see that not being the case. I think if it is -6 because it is wild then it should be offset by a bigger bonus from any targeting systems.

again no rules for it...
Just because we feel that it should work that way does not mean it actually will work that way.

That said house rule it if you want.
I have an HR for if we (the game group) feel we want that level of detail in our combats. (which is not all that often...)we tend to down play the combat in favor of the storyline and character interaction.
simple HR for a TC is that it adds a +3 to strike (my group do not believe that a target comp will completely over ride wild fire) with linked in weapon systems. or make it so it adds a +6 if you feel that is more appropriate. (just remember this bonus will still apply even when wild fire does not apply.)

No rules huh? Maybe you should step down with the rest of us, and actually research instead of making things up.

I refer you KCs post above...

[Damian Magecraft]

I would say the computer would have to do the firing for it to fully negate the moving penalty. If it was anything else firing it, I would reduce the penalty greatly.

Actually I ran across this in the GM's guide:

GM Guide Pg 42: Shooting Wild:

"3 - When shooting from a moving object; i.e. a moving car, hover vehicle, horse or other moving platform. This DOES NOT INCLUDE the firing of weapon systems built into power armor, robots, cyborgs, or mounted weapons or turrets built into combat vehicles. Nor does it apply to super-heroes and mutants or monsters that can shoot energy beams or similar powers, from their natural bodies. This rule applies to people who are shooting a hand-held weapon from a moving object."

Good Find
I get so used to referencing the RUE I forget about the GMG.

[Killer Cyborg]

Nice find, Kagatos.

Of course, that still leaves the hand-held railguns of stuff like the SAMAS in debate.

Ahhh.......

Damn, yeah your right.
I'll have to see if I can't keep looking then.

Edit:

Umm, alright under the "Old Style" Samas its lists the C-40R rail gun as being tied to directly to the units power supply so by extension it should be tied into the targeting system and get the benefits. Likewise, the over-sized weapons like the CTT series should get the benefit as well (as they are designed for use with PA)....but the smaller weapons that they can use (normal rifles, sidearms...etc) probably wouldn't in my opinion.

Yup.
The question would be whether "tied into" is the same as "built into."

Personally, I'd assume that it'd count. Otherwise power armor would be too ineffective, and fewer suits would have hand-held guns.

[Damian Magecraft]

Nice find, Kagatos.

Of course, that still leaves the hand-held railguns of stuff like the SAMAS in debate.

Ahhh.......

Damn, yeah your right.
I'll have to see if I can't keep looking then.

Edit:

Umm, alright under the "Old Style" Samas its lists the C-40R rail gun as being tied to directly to the units power supply so by extension it should be tied into the targeting system and get the benefits. Likewise, the over-sized weapons like the CTT series should get the benefit as well (as they are designed for use with PA)....but the smaller weapons that they can use (normal rifles, sidearms...etc) probably wouldn't in my opinion.

Yup.
The question would be whether "tied into" is the same as "built into."

Personally, I'd assume that it'd count. Otherwise power armor would be too ineffective, and fewer suits would have hand-held guns.

so a TC completely overrides the shooting wild in R/PAs?
OK. learn something new every day.

[Killer Cyborg]

so a TC completely overrides the shooting wild in R/PAs?
OK. learn something new every day.

Technically, being "built into" the armor/vehicle overrides the shooting wild.
That would apply even without a targeting computer.

[Damian Magecraft]

so a TC completely overrides the shooting wild in R/PAs?
OK. learn something new every day.

Technically, being "built into" the armor/vehicle overrides the shooting wild.
That would apply even without a targeting computer.

well one assumes that since all R/PAs have a TC built into them...
of course we know what happens when we assume.

and the negatives for high speeds still applies anyway.
Or is there a rule to bypass that to?

[dragonfett]

Actually there is a list of everything that comes standard in a Robot or Power Armor. Targeting Computers are on that list IIRC.

[Killer Cyborg]

so a TC completely overrides the shooting wild in R/PAs?
OK. learn something new every day.

Technically, being "built into" the armor/vehicle overrides the shooting wild.
That would apply even without a targeting computer.

well one assumes that since all R/PAs have a TC built into them...
of course we know what happens when we assume.

They have a lot of things built into them, but there's no indication if any one of these things is the factor.
And since the rule applies not just to PA/bots, but also to combat vehicles and other stuff that might not have a targeting computer, I don't think that's the deciding factor.

and the negatives for high speeds still applies anyway.
Or is there a rule to bypass that to?

Hm. Good point.