Battle of the Knights !!

[Lenwen]

I have already clerified to which CK I am talking about ..

Edited the original post to clerify such ..

[cornholioprime]

So a class which wouldn't even be in this contest gets a magic weapon at a higher level, and they can use that, but anything that isn't directly stated in a class description isn't allowable.

I'm not sure what you mean by '...a class which wouldn't even be in this contest...' nor am I sure what you mean by 'magic weapon at a higher level' (the M-Knight gets a magic weapon, some common ancient weapons, and modern weaponry to start IIRC).

He was obviously referring to your own Mystic Kyzuna example that you pulled out of thin air. That class is not involved in this scenario.

Did you see the part in that post about the Mystic Kuynza example being TOTALLY made up?

I know that Mystic Kuynza get their whole loadout at the beginning and, IIRC, they don't get anything extra in terms of equipment from their OCC as they level up.

Your reducto ad absurdium rebuttal is completely absurd.

Frankly, I don't care how absurd you think it is; all that I have to do is point out is that turning an "X vs. Y" scenario into an arms race is an inaccurate means to judge the comparative capabilities of each character.

I never said it had to be airtight. But if you're not even giong to try, and it's completely absurd.... you should expect someone is going to poke holes in, around these forums.

Keep poking at it.

As I've just said...I don't care if you do; I'm a big boy and I can take the jabs.

The second one is even worse than the first.
Please read up on both the Lanator Accords and the Code of the Cosmo Knight before bringing up anti-matter cruise missles again.

You seem to be missing the overall point.

The point isn't that I mistakenly use this or that or the other weapon from Phase World; the point is that, if the Mystic Knight is allowed to equip himself at will, then so can the Cosmo-Knight. Only the Cosmo-knight has a potentially much deadlier selection of weaponry to choose from.

Where in the OP does it say this is a only a 'test of skills and strength and ability' anyway?

It indirectly 'says so' in the Common Sense one is expected to bring to a "This vs. That" scenario.

One doesn't ask, "Can a Glitter Boy defeat an Elder Thunder Lizard?" only to have the other guy say, "But wait. The Dragon gets to select a potentially endless number of Magic Weapons from his milennia-old Treasure Trove (that will, of course, conveniently be curiously useful in taking down a Glitter Boy)."

All it says is that it's a matchup. It doesn't say anything about it being a test of skill only. Gear is part of a classes assests. It's more important to some classes than others, so you can't discount gear in level 15 vs level 15 fight. Gear is quite important to the Mystic Knight, both due to their abilities that obviously go hand-in-hand with TW items and weapons, and due to the fact that it clearly indicates as much in their writeup. It's all gear-this and gear-that. Not many other classes get lines about them "coveting rune weapons" inside the Spell Knowledge part of the writeup.

Let's play your game for a moment.

Mystic Knights get unspecified magic swords, ancient weapons, and modern weapons as part of their initial roll-out -only, we're not told what they are.
Cosmo-Knights can acquire all sorts of weapons and equipment, both magical and mundane, over the course of their immortal lifespans -only, we're not told what they are, and we're not told exactly what items a Cosmo-Knight may elect to give away and which he will keep.


Is the foolishness of an Arms Race scenario sinking in yet, or do you need further clarification?
Especially in light of the fact that virtually anything your Mystic Knight can get on Earth, the Cosmo-Knight can get from the Three Galaxies, and which in many if most cases will be vastly better?

Of course we can bring gear into the discussion. There's no need to make it rediculous though. Within reason, there should be no problem with gear playing into the outcome of the battle.

You say that Mystic Knight has X from Rifts Earth, and I say that Cosmo Knight has Y from anything he can get his hands on from Phase World -which, again, a lot of that equipment can be a lot better than the stuff that Knight is likely to acquire.

And who gets to determine how much equipment is "too little," how much is "just right Goldilocks" and how much equipment is "ridiculous?" You?

Hey, if total twink-munchkin-of-the-megaverse tactics like Mach 15 body rams for insta-kills are being considered, why the hangup on the Mystic Knight having a passable magic arsenal? I dunno what else to say. Maybe you could start a new thread for level 1 vs Level 1 with starting equipment as listed in the book only. That's not what's going on here, as far as I can tell. Lenwen? Is this thread for level 15's with the starting gear of level 1 characters?

See above.

And no, using the Cosmo-Knight's body as a Mach 15 battering ram isn't called "twink munchkin."

It's called "there are many things in the Rifts Game Settings that are nowhere near a match for one another, and therefore some beings shouldn't try to pick fights with other beings."

You might as well call "twink-munchkin" a Dragon with the power of flight who stays out of range of his ground-based attackers -refusing to fight them on their terms -and who simply pelts them from the air with spell or breath or ranged weapon.

If you can't withstand the impact of a Mach 15 mini-missile or railgun slug, then don't bring a knife to a gun fight by trying to challenge a Triax Devastator or Glitter Boy.
If you can't withstand the impact of a Mach 15 living missile, then don't bring a knife to a gun fight by trying to challenge a Cosmo-Knight.

[Jorel]

I think your overlooking that the CK will fight fair, and the Mystic Knight won't. The MK can use people as a shield and that will give the CK a reason not to blow him to smithereens from a distance.

[cornholioprime]

I think your overlooking that the CK will fight fair, and the Mystic Knight won't. The MK can use people as a shield and that will give the CK a reason not to blow him to smithereens from a distance.

We've already enough difficulty with weapons, now we're adding innocent bystanders into the mix, too?

[Jorel]

In my games, when a villianous/dishonorable character has time to prepare for for a battle there are usually traps and ambushes set, and nothing should be as it seems. And yes, innocent hostages, definitely easy to find given enough time to prepare. Though I think the OP doesn't use that wording, it says equipped as such, meaning he knows the CK will fight fair. Why not give him a human shield or several?

[Lenwen]

Lenwen? Is this thread for level 15's with the starting gear of level 1 characters?

No. This is a matchup, lvl 15 CK vs lvl 15 Mk ..


And all the "probable" assets each would have by that lvl ..

Things we can easily see one or the other having .. obviously the CK is going to be some what handicapped in the type of attacks he is going to attempt on the Mk .. and yes the Mk is going to obviously play extremely durty .. who know's if he will bring in civilian's into the fight or not .. Who also know's if the Ck has gotten some type of gear that allow's him to see invisible ..

I'm suggesting that each with probable gear that we can see a lvl 15th character of each class having .. and then going mano e mano .. for a slugfest .. To the death/incapacitate.

I say to the death/incapacitate .. due to the fact that the Mk WILL do the coup D grace on the Ck if given the chance .. while the Ck .. will not be able to unless he wants to fall from his absurdly high pedestal .. and lose all his powers ..

[Jorel]

Thanks.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Lenwen? Is this thread for level 15's with the starting gear of level 1 characters?

No. This is a matchup, lvl 15 CK vs lvl 15 Mk ..


And all the "probable" assets each would have by that lvl ..

Things we can easily see one or the other having .. obviously the CK is going to be some what handicapped in the type of attacks he is going to attempt on the Mk .. and yes the Mk is going to obviously play extremely durty .. who know's if he will bring in civilian's into the fight or not .. Who also know's if the Ck has gotten some type of gear that allow's him to see invisible ..

I'm suggesting that each with probable gear that we can see a lvl 15th character of each class having .. and then going mano e mano .. for a slugfest .. To the death/incapacitate.

I say to the death/incapacitate .. due to the fact that the Mk WILL do the coup D grace on the Ck if given the chance .. while the Ck .. will not be able to unless he wants to fall from his absurdly high pedestal .. and lose all his powers ..

Not quite true. The Cosmo Knights CAN kill in battle, they just can't kill a surrendered enemy.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Doing a cheap move like flying at mach 15 at someone over and over and over again until you manage to score a lucky hit to insta-kill them while completely avoiding even the possibility of taking any attacks in return is NOT super-twinky munchkin tactics??! Ooookay. They must have changed the definition of that RPG term recently while I wasn't paying attention.

Oh I know it's munchkin. See my comment to the left.

[Lenwen]

Lenwen? Is this thread for level 15's with the starting gear of level 1 characters?

No. This is a matchup, lvl 15 CK vs lvl 15 Mk ..


And all the "probable" assets each would have by that lvl ..

Things we can easily see one or the other having .. obviously the CK is going to be some what handicapped in the type of attacks he is going to attempt on the Mk .. and yes the Mk is going to obviously play extremely durty .. who know's if he will bring in civilian's into the fight or not .. Who also know's if the Ck has gotten some type of gear that allow's him to see invisible ..

I'm suggesting that each with probable gear that we can see a lvl 15th character of each class having .. and then going mano e mano .. for a slugfest .. To the death/incapacitate.

I say to the death/incapacitate .. due to the fact that the Mk WILL do the coup D grace on the Ck if given the chance .. while the Ck .. will not be able to unless he wants to fall from his absurdly high pedestal .. and lose all his powers ..

Not quite true. The Cosmo Knights CAN kill in battle, they just can't kill a surrendered enemy.

Do you not think an evil Mk .. would not play the "surrenedered" role .. just to attack yet again .. then surrender so forth an so on ?

JUST .. to make the CK fall ? Know what i mean ?

[cornholioprime]

Lenwen? Is this thread for level 15's with the starting gear of level 1 characters?

No. This is a matchup, lvl 15 CK vs lvl 15 Mk ..


And all the "probable" assets each would have by that lvl ..

Things we can easily see one or the other having .. obviously the CK is going to be some what handicapped in the type of attacks he is going to attempt on the Mk .. and yes the Mk is going to obviously play extremely durty .. who know's if he will bring in civilian's into the fight or not .. Who also know's if the Ck has gotten some type of gear that allow's him to see invisible ..

I'm suggesting that each with probable gear that we can see a lvl 15th character of each class having .. and then going mano e mano .. for a slugfest .. To the death/incapacitate.

I say to the death/incapacitate .. due to the fact that the Mk WILL do the coup D grace on the Ck if given the chance .. while the Ck .. will not be able to unless he wants to fall from his absurdly high pedestal .. and lose all his powers ..

Not quite true. The Cosmo Knights CAN kill in battle, they just can't kill a surrendered enemy.

Do you not think an evil Mk .. would not play the "surrenedered" role .. just to attack yet again .. then surrender so forth an so on ?

JUST .. to make the CK fall ? Know what i mean ?

At level 15 and with that much experience under their respective belts, I wouldn't think that such simple ruses would work on either the Cosmo- OR Mystic Knight.

[NoahBoddy]

Greetings and salutations everyone!

Long time lurker, first time poster here. As I was reading this post I quickly came to the realization that without further information about both the cosmo-knight and the mystic knight one cannot come to any real conclusion as to who the winner would be if they were to fight. There are simply too many unknown variables. At a quick glance I would think the cosmo-knight would be victorious as he is a supernatural being with godly powers but the mystic knight isn't without his own bag of tricks.

Some things that should be established by Lenwen:

Where are these two fighting? Is the battle to take place in an open field with no obstacles or bystanders? That would give the advantage to the cosmo-knight as he could try to tackle the mystic knight at mach 15 (something which other posters have added probably go against the CK's code of fair play). Or he could zap the MK with his energy blasts at a range of 8200 feet (half damage of 5d6x10 is still pretty significant, presuming the blasts count as magic) which also I would think goes against fair play. If however they are fighting in an underground bunker with lots of innocent (or not so innocent) bystanders nearby the advantage would go to the MK.

What is the situation that drove these two to fight? Again at first glance one could come to the conclusion that the CK is bringing the MK to justice however a MK can have an alignment of anarchist (or even good alignment if a Knight of the Rose). In other words the MK doesn't have to be a diabolical genius bent on world domination (or destruction), perhaps the CK wants to bring him in alive for questioning, to find out who he works for. Or perhaps this was a case of mistaken identity, the MK could be a Knight of the Rose bringing the CK in for questioning. Things are rarely what they seem.

Exactly what equipment do they have available for this fight? As pointed out previously, equipment can play a huge factor, especially if both parties are prepared for the confrontation. At that level both parties would have plenty of contacts to get some really exotic gear.

What race is the MK? It states that 60% are human however there is a big difference in power levels between a human MK, a True Atlantean MK (I love power tattoos) and a demi-god MK.

What spells/psionic powers does the the MK possess? At 15th level an MK would have 2 super psionic powers (in addition to any racial powers and/or other life altering circumstances such as a trip to the Azlum Asylum in Atlantis). A telekinetic force field created to parry the mach 15 body block would really ruin the CK's day.

Your best bet would be to create the level 15 characters, with all relevant details and have an impartial GM create the setting. Then play out the fight 10 or more times (to try to reduce the luck factor).

Happy Friday!

[Lenwen]

Lenwen? Is this thread for level 15's with the starting gear of level 1 characters?

No. This is a matchup, lvl 15 CK vs lvl 15 Mk ..


And all the "probable" assets each would have by that lvl ..

Things we can easily see one or the other having .. obviously the CK is going to be some what handicapped in the type of attacks he is going to attempt on the Mk .. and yes the Mk is going to obviously play extremely durty .. who know's if he will bring in civilian's into the fight or not .. Who also know's if the Ck has gotten some type of gear that allow's him to see invisible ..

I'm suggesting that each with probable gear that we can see a lvl 15th character of each class having .. and then going mano e mano .. for a slugfest .. To the death/incapacitate.

I say to the death/incapacitate .. due to the fact that the Mk WILL do the coup D grace on the Ck if given the chance .. while the Ck .. will not be able to unless he wants to fall from his absurdly high pedestal .. and lose all his powers ..

Not quite true. The Cosmo Knights CAN kill in battle, they just can't kill a surrendered enemy.

Do you not think an evil Mk .. would not play the "surrenedered" role .. just to attack yet again .. then surrender so forth an so on ?

JUST .. to make the CK fall ? Know what i mean ?

At level 15 and with that much experience under their respective belts, I wouldn't think that such simple ruses would work on either the Cosmo- OR Mystic Knight.

I bet that is how alotta fallen knights have thought too ..

[johnkretzer]

Remember, whatever gear the Cosmo-Knight can afford, the Mystic Knight gets to spend 1.5x that amount. That's what the OCC ability means.

Yes. This dosn't mean that the mystic knight can spend it on the same stuff. Three Galaxies technology is rare on Rifts earth, even Naruni, the most common exsample, is very rare, wherewas for the Cosmo Knight it is trivial to aquire. Just because the mystic knight has a bit more dosn't mean he shops at the same places.

This just struck me as funny. The game is called it Rifts....at 15th level do you really think it is that hard to dimensionaly travel? It should be like us going to the local store for the MK to travel to Phase world at. I mean seriously....nobodys PCs ever leave Rifts Earth? With all the means to do so...

But a previous statement is correct you have to assume equipment eventualy evens out....though if you do so you have to ignore the range that the CK can open up...or the invisibility of the MK...as both with euipment can get around it.

[Balabanto]

So a class which wouldn't even be in this contest gets a magic weapon at a higher level, and they can use that, but anything that isn't directly stated in a class description isn't allowable.

I'm not sure what you mean by '...a class which wouldn't even be in this contest...' nor am I sure what you mean by 'magic weapon at a higher level' (the M-Knight gets a magic weapon, some common ancient weapons, and modern weaponry to start IIRC).

He was obviously referring to your own Mystic Kyzuna example that you pulled out of thin air. That class is not involved in this scenario.

Did you see the part in that post about the Mystic Kuynza example being TOTALLY made up?

I know that Mystic Kuynza get their whole loadout at the beginning and, IIRC, they don't get anything extra in terms of equipment from their OCC as they level up.

Your reducto ad absurdium rebuttal is completely absurd.

Frankly, I don't care how absurd you think it is; all that I have to do is point out is that turning an "X vs. Y" scenario into an arms race is an inaccurate means to judge the comparative capabilities of each character.

I never said it had to be airtight. But if you're not even giong to try, and it's completely absurd.... you should expect someone is going to poke holes in, around these forums.

Keep poking at it.

As I've just said...I don't care if you do; I'm a big boy and I can take the jabs.

The second one is even worse than the first.
Please read up on both the Lanator Accords and the Code of the Cosmo Knight before bringing up anti-matter cruise missles again.

You seem to be missing the overall point.

The point isn't that I mistakenly use this or that or the other weapon from Phase World; the point is that, if the Mystic Knight is allowed to equip himself at will, then so can the Cosmo-Knight. Only the Cosmo-knight has a potentially much deadlier selection of weaponry to choose from.

Where in the OP does it say this is a only a 'test of skills and strength and ability' anyway?

It indirectly 'says so' in the Common Sense one is expected to bring to a "This vs. That" scenario.

One doesn't ask, "Can a Glitter Boy defeat an Elder Thunder Lizard?" only to have the other guy say, "But wait. The Dragon gets to select a potentially endless number of Magic Weapons from his milennia-old Treasure Trove (that will, of course, conveniently be curiously useful in taking down a Glitter Boy)."

All it says is that it's a matchup. It doesn't say anything about it being a test of skill only. Gear is part of a classes assests. It's more important to some classes than others, so you can't discount gear in level 15 vs level 15 fight. Gear is quite important to the Mystic Knight, both due to their abilities that obviously go hand-in-hand with TW items and weapons, and due to the fact that it clearly indicates as much in their writeup. It's all gear-this and gear-that. Not many other classes get lines about them "coveting rune weapons" inside the Spell Knowledge part of the writeup.

Let's play your game for a moment.

Mystic Knights get unspecified magic swords, ancient weapons, and modern weapons as part of their initial roll-out -only, we're not told what they are.
Cosmo-Knights can acquire all sorts of weapons and equipment, both magical and mundane, over the course of their immortal lifespans -only, we're not told what they are, and we're not told exactly what items a Cosmo-Knight may elect to give away and which he will keep.


Is the foolishness of an Arms Race scenario sinking in yet, or do you need further clarification?
Especially in light of the fact that virtually anything your Mystic Knight can get on Earth, the Cosmo-Knight can get from the Three Galaxies, and which in many if most cases will be vastly better?

Of course we can bring gear into the discussion. There's no need to make it rediculous though. Within reason, there should be no problem with gear playing into the outcome of the battle.

You say that Mystic Knight has X from Rifts Earth, and I say that Cosmo Knight has Y from anything he can get his hands on from Phase World -which, again, a lot of that equipment can be a lot better than the stuff that Knight is likely to acquire.

And who gets to determine how much equipment is "too little," how much is "just right Goldilocks" and how much equipment is "ridiculous?" You?

Hey, if total twink-munchkin-of-the-megaverse tactics like Mach 15 body rams for insta-kills are being considered, why the hangup on the Mystic Knight having a passable magic arsenal? I dunno what else to say. Maybe you could start a new thread for level 1 vs Level 1 with starting equipment as listed in the book only. That's not what's going on here, as far as I can tell. Lenwen? Is this thread for level 15's with the starting gear of level 1 characters?

See above.

And no, using the Cosmo-Knight's body as a Mach 15 battering ram isn't called "twink munchkin."

It's called "there are many things in the Rifts Game Settings that are nowhere near a match for one another, and therefore some beings shouldn't try to pick fights with other beings."

You might as well call "twink-munchkin" a Dragon with the power of flight who stays out of range of his ground-based attackers -refusing to fight them on their terms -and who simply pelts them from the air with spell or breath or ranged weapon.

If you can't withstand the impact of a Mach 15 mini-missile or railgun slug, then don't bring a knife to a gun fight by trying to challenge a Triax Devastator or Glitter Boy.
If you can't withstand the impact of a Mach 15 living missile, then don't bring a knife to a gun fight by trying to challenge a Cosmo-Knight.

The Mystic Knight gets paid 1.5 x as much for every contract as every other character in the game. It's right in the OCC. I suggest you read it. Therefore, it's totally reasonable to assume that the MK will have 1.5 x the gear of the Cosmo Knight, since MKs are ruthless looters and Cosmo Knights aren't.

[Zer0 Kay]

For those who do not know the Cosmo-Knight's Code of Honor, here it is, . . .

1. To Live
Live to serve the Cosmic Forge and the Megaverse.
Live to defend the Cosmic Forge and all that's good.
Live to defend all sentients and the innocent.
Live to defend Nature and the sanctity of all living worlds.
Live for freedom, justice and all that is good.

2. Fair Play
Never attack a helpless foe (restrain him if need be).
Avoid engaging in torture or abuse.
Avoid lying and cheating, unless necessary for a good cause.

3. Nobility
Obey the laws of the lands you visit, unless they are evil.
Administer justice equally for all.
Administer mercy equally for all.
Protect the innocent regardless of class and race.
Show respect to authority but not corruption.
Never accept a position of power over others.
Avoid glory if it leads to self-aggrandizement.
Hide yourself among the people until you are needed.

4. Valor
Exhibit courage in word and deed.
Defend the weak and innocent.
Destroy evil in all its forms.
Avenge the wronged.
Never abandon a friend, ally or noble cause.

5. Honor
Always keep one's word of honor.
Always maintain one's principles.

I hope this helps.

:-D WELCOME TO THE FORUMS, NoahBoddy!

Why did you only do page 99?
You missed
[quote]5. Honor continued from page 99
Never betray a confidence or comrade.
Deceive only to serve justice, or to avoid vain glory.
Respect life and freedom.
Die with honor.

6. Courtesy
Never make fun of those weaker than you.
Be polite to those who deserve it.

7. Loyalty
To one's principles and heart.
To one's friends and those who lay their trust in you.
To the destruction of evil.

Per 7 and 4 an MK is to be destroyed NOT brought to justice.

Per 2 they can attack a MK that has surrendered as a mage is never helpless unless they are enduring pain that keeps them from casting spells.

2 also allows them to cause them that pain if they want to as it only says avoid engaging in torture or abuse. It does not say never or abstain. They can also back stab as ambush, hiding etc. are not listed in the never...

So now that we know that the CK can play just as dirty as the MK with reguards to each other...

Now the one thing the MK can do that the CK wouldn't is use an innocent as a hostage/meat shield and the CK would have to figure out some way to get around it without out harming the innocent.

If your looking at how to make a CK fall easily. Have the MK, or heck any evil mage after this same goal, cast Invisibility superior, sleep and telekinetically hold an innocent up in front of them while confronting the CK, fient, the CK counters, striking the unarmored innocent decimating it... fallen knight. That is all, however, determined by how strictly one would require CKs to adhere to their code.

Oh and as far as comparing. All equipment is moot as each can gain the same equipment and in the few instances where equipment can only be had by one or the other they can find a counter as both at 15th level would be dimensionally well traveled (the CK because they are from the three galaxies and the MK because they are from Rifts and are mages). So any comparison would have to be done by canon class to canon class.

[Zer0 Kay]

Why did you only do page 99?

Oops. I forgot there was more. I went back and edited it. Thanks, Zer0 Kay.

Your welcome... but now that makes my post look silly. Oh well I'm used to that.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The Mystic Knight gets paid 1.5 x as much for every contract as every other character in the game. It's right in the OCC. I suggest you read it. Therefore, it's totally reasonable to assume that the MK will have 1.5 x the gear of the Cosmo Knight, since MKs are ruthless looters and Cosmo Knights aren't.

No...it's really not.

That assumes that the mystic knight and the cosmo knight are accepting the same contracts for the same level of pay.

The Mystic knight is taking contracts as bodyguards and assassins.

The Cosmo Knight is taking contracts to destroy pirate fleets

Yes, if the mystic knight was getting those kinds of contracts, then I agree, the Mystic Knight would have 1.5 times the money.

However, the cosmo knight from level 1 is playing on a higher feild. even with 50% less on the base, the raw value of what they can do far outwighs the mystic knight.

The mystic knight is getting 50% more on contracts to kidnap and murder people. Somehow, this just dosn't cover the vast gap in pay grades.

[Johnathan]

Cosmo-Knights aren't really mercenaries... They usually won't get paid for their services. Since what use does a Cosmo-Knight have of money, right? They don't need food, shelter, and/or most of the basic necessities that require money.

However! That, by no means, means they are obligated to turn down any sort of monetary reward they are given when, on the rare chance, it does happen. My Cosmo-Knight, for example has billions of universal credits stashed away on random places all over the megaverse! The money isn't for him (he hasn't used a cent of it on himself...), instead he uses the money for multiple other purposes: paying for information when reputation failed, paying for repairs to groups machines, giving to the poor, establishing several safe houses around the three galaxies where his friends and allies may go, buying equipment for others, gifts, tokens of gratitude, etc.

Does he NEED the money? Hell no! However, he knows money has it's purposes when he has to do something outside of taking down galactic level threats...

[Zer0 Kay]

Cosmo-Knights aren't really mercenaries... They usually won't get paid for their services. Since what use does a Cosmo-Knight have of money, right? They don't need food, shelter, and/or most of the basic necessities that require money.

However! That, by no means, means they are obligated to turn down any sort of monetary reward they are given when, on the rare chance, it does happen. My Cosmo-Knight, for example has billions of universal credits stashed away on random places all over the megaverse! The money isn't for him (he hasn't used a cent of it on himself...), instead he uses the money for multiple other purposes: paying for information when reputation failed, paying for repairs to groups machines, giving to the poor, establishing several safe houses around the three galaxies where his friends and allies may go, buying equipment for others, gifts, tokens of gratitude, etc.

Does he NEED the money? Hell no! However, he knows money has it's purposes when he has to do something outside of taking down galactic level threats...

The CK needs money to maintain paragraph 3 item 8 under their code "Hide yourself among the people until you are needed." In order to do so they need to purchase clothing, have a "home" and, depending on how much scrutiny there is into identifying them, purchase groceries. If the CK was rich before they may have to keep up the appearances, it would however be a lot easier if they leave their old life and just become a homeless wanderer... but then it would seem funny if they take the big jobs and only ask for a few hundred credits, suspicious even.

[Zer0 Kay]

Your welcome... but now that makes my post look silly. Oh well I'm used to that.

Oh, I'm terribly sorry. I didn't mean to make you feel that way about your posting.

At least you presented your point of view on the Cosmo-Knight Code. So, it should not be, in no way, be considered silly, Zer0 Kay.

I should at least say, Cosmo-Knights, . . . good.

Mystic Knights, . . . evil.

Code is in favor of Cosmo-Knights going all out on Mystic Knights. The End.

No need to apologize, I was just kidding... I guess I should have put a or after it eh?

As far as I can tell comparing their codes to each other it supports CK going all out and MK trying to run off just on principles. I don't think their type like to consider an even fight even with "sand in the eye" tactics.

[jedi078]

The best way to settle this is to have somebody make a 15th level Cosmo KNight and someone else make a 15th level Mystic Knight. Now find a GM to arbitrate (fairly and without bias) the fight and we'll see what happens.

The one variable in any fight between this class or that class is that no one thinks the same, and die roll can make a huge difference.

[Jorel]

I think we need a refereed thread for Gladiatorial match ups. Not moderated, reffed. Like was proposed, a set GM to run the battles, a waiting list of whose on deck, and a place for bets to be made. Who else wants to see a gladiator's arena thread?

[Johnathan]

So... I went ahead and designed these two guys up. Straight rolls, both "human", boosted all of their skills and abilities to 15th level and am running through their skill selections right now. That part might take awhile since I tend to be REALLY meticulous about my skills (naturally, someone would just say "get all the physical skills since those are the only ones that matter!" but is that REALLY what we do when building up our characters?).

I also have compiled a semi-comprehensive list of gear a 15th level character would, arguably, have for this specific scenario (I included a lot of off the wall, high-powered stuff, including a sword of Atlantis, The Eternity Sword and a few Greatest Artifacts. As well as a few sets of armor that would make a grown man cry). I'm going to percentile roll three of these items for each of these characters. Invite two of my buddies over and have them duke this one out. Results should be posted in a weeks time frame.

[Crucible]

Its Rifts, not WotC. You HAVE to play it out in order to know.

[Jorel]

So... I went ahead and designed these two guys up. Straight rolls, both "human", boosted all of their skills and abilities to 15th level and am running through their skill selections right now. That part might take awhile since I tend to be REALLY meticulous about my skills (naturally, someone would just say "get all the physical skills since those are the only ones that matter!" but is that REALLY what we do when building up our characters?).

I also have compiled a semi-comprehensive list of gear a 15th level character would, arguably, have for this specific scenario (I included a lot of off the wall, high-powered stuff, including a sword of Atlantis, The Eternity Sword and a few Greatest Artifacts. As well as a few sets of armor that would make a grown man cry). I'm going to percentile roll three of these items for each of these characters. Invite two of my buddies over and have them duke this one out. Results should be posted in a weeks time frame.

This is getting better, and better, and better. Great work. Keep us posted.

[Jorel]

That would be sweet.
Almost as cool as the live-play arena games we used to have on AOL and MUDs in the dark ages of the internet when chat rooms were first invented.
What would we bet for here though? There's no 'in-game currency' on these forums, or betting access hours...

If other people are interested, I will start trying to network something into happening. Maybe I'll start with a poll.

[Balabanto]

Its Rifts, not WotC. You HAVE to play it out in order to know.

I wish they had reputation on these boards.

[jedi078]

What would we bet for here though? There's no 'in-game currency' on these forums, or betting access hours...

Bragging rights, the fact that the character class you backed came out on top.

A GM can easily run an arena player vs player game on rpol. The site has a die roller and thus everyone will be kept honest.

[The Beast]

Per 7 and 4 an MK is to be destroyed NOT brought to justice.

Per 2 they can attack a MK that has surrendered as a mage is never helpless unless they are enduring pain that keeps them from casting spells.

Gonna have to disagree you you alittle here. IMO, a MK could do that trick once. If he tried to surrender to the CK again, the CK could just ignore his plea and
kill the MK.

Also I fail to see where it says a MK has to destroy a MK. If the MK never surrenders, or escapes and kills many during the escape, I could see it.

[Zer0 Kay]

That would be sweet.
Almost as cool as the live-play arena games we used to have on AOL and MUDs in the dark ages of the internet when chat rooms were first invented.
What would we bet for here though? There's no 'in-game currency' on these forums, or betting access hours...

Geek points maybe even if the mods get into it we could get geek points in our title.

[Zer0 Kay]

Per 7 and 4 an MK is to be destroyed NOT brought to justice.

Per 2 they can attack a MK that has surrendered as a mage is never helpless unless they are enduring pain that keeps them from casting spells.

Gonna have to disagree you you alittle here. IMO, a MK could do that trick once. If he tried to surrender to the CK again, the CK could just ignore his plea and
kill the MK.

Also I fail to see where it says a MK has to destroy a MK. If the MK never surrenders, or escapes and kills many during the escape, I could see it.

Again the code does not say must accept surrender of enemy and a CK would know that an MK is never truely disarmed so the CK is always free to fight the MK under his code.

Um on the second part did you mean that you fail to see where it says a CK has to destroy a MK? The answer would be the parts where it says

4. Valor
Exhibit courage in word and deed.
Defend the weak and innocent.
Destroy evil in all its forms.
Avenge the wronged.
Never abandon a friend, ally or noble cause.

and

7. Loyalty
To one's principles and heart.
To one's friends and those who lay their trust in you.
To the destruction of evil.

Plus by killing a MK the CK is almost certainly also fullfilling

1. To Live
Live to serve the Cosmic Forge and the Megaverse.
Live to defend the Cosmic Forge and all that's good.
Live to defend all sentients and the innocent.
Live to defend Nature and the sanctity of all living worlds.
Live for freedom, justice and all that is good.

3. Nobility
Obey the laws of the lands you visit, unless they are evil.
Administer justice equally for all.
Administer mercy equally for all.
Protect the innocent regardless of class and race.
Show respect to authority but not corruption.[/b]
Never accept a position of power over others.
Avoid glory if it leads to self-aggrandizement.
Hide yourself among the people until you are needed.

4. Valor
Exhibit courage in word and deed.
[b]Defend the weak and innocent.
Destroy evil in all its forms.
Avenge the wronged.
Never abandon a friend, ally or noble cause.

5. Honor
Always keep one's word of honor.
Always maintain one's principles.

So by their code CKs are almost required to kill MKs IF they know what they are.

[Zer0 Kay]

Its Rifts, not WotC. You HAVE to play it out in order to know.

Wait... Huh? Because D&D x.x doesn't use dice too?

[The Beast]

Again the code does not say must accept surrender of enemy and a CK would know that an MK is never truely disarmed so the CK is always free to fight the MK under his code.

MKs are disarmed if they're out of PPE and ISP.

Um on the second part did you mean that you fail to see where it says a CK has to destroy a MK?

Yes, that was the part I was talking about.

[Zer0 Kay]

Again the code does not say must accept surrender of enemy and a CK would know that an MK is never truely disarmed so the CK is always free to fight the MK under his code.

MKs are disarmed if they're out of PPE and ISP.

Um on the second part did you mean that you fail to see where it says a CK has to destroy a MK?

Yes, that was the part I was talking about.

Well CKs can detect PPE/ISP and they are not stupid so it is best to consider a mage always armed unless:
a) there is the kid with the bag of rocks (constant state of disruption)
b) the mage has suddenly been upgraded with spontanious bionics

[Nekira Sudacne]

Again the code does not say must accept surrender of enemy and a CK would know that an MK is never truely disarmed so the CK is always free to fight the MK under his code.

MKs are disarmed if they're out of PPE and ISP.

Um on the second part did you mean that you fail to see where it says a CK has to destroy a MK?

Yes, that was the part I was talking about.

Well CKs can detect PPE/ISP and they are not stupid so it is best to consider a mage always armed unless:
a) there is the kid with the bag of rocks (constant state of disruption)
b) the mage has suddenly been upgraded with spontanious bionics

The Kid with a bag of rocks is no longer a threat. level 1-5 spells are impossible to interrupt as of RUE. And for palladium fantasy, the Mysteries of Magic book says that you have to deal 8 or more damage in a single blow to disrupt a spell, so a kid with a bag of rocks won't do enough damage to disrupt anything there either.

[Johnathan]

THE RESULTS ARE IN!!

(I always wanted to do that! :3 )

Okay, so, let me set up the scene for y'all. Each character, 15th, level, maxed out skills selection (no, not just all physical... Why would a Cosmo-Knight need SCUBA 0G training, etc. Really?), and three very disturbing pieces of equipment each.

The CK had an Splugorth Talisman of Armor, a Highest Quality Dwarven Craft sword with had been Alchemied with indestructible, double damage to evil (of the MK had gotten this one it woulda been double damage to Good) and double damage ( the swords net MD was like 10D6 vs evil opponents, or 1D6*10 for short) and a greatest artifact (from Nightbane'verse) with anti-Arcane, protection from Artifacts and artifact armor. His CK weapon, a sword, had the damage boost option.

The MK got a Sword of Atlantis (he wanted the Eternity Sword but oh well...), an suit of TW, operatored, Alchemied suit of armor with 500 MDC, weightless, fright mask and invisibility. It was then given the TW enhancements of magic adrenal rush, sorcerous fury and giant. He then rolled a goody and landed a 100% (which on the table meant he could choose an enhancement of his choice, free of charge). He opted for full MDC conversion from the Splugorth Bio-Wizards (I wad iffy about it, but I thought the CK still had the advantage, so I let'm go nuts with it). So he now had a bade MDC of 275, on top of his armor.

The details of the fight aren't that important, however, the end result is what everyone wants to know. In the end, the battle was fairly even. Each one of them had one hour to go over their characters and the powers available to them. Each one also believed they would win! I, as the arbitrator, believed, despite my favoritism, that the MK might actually win this battle...

The CK won. Had 157 MDC left when he delivered a killing, charging blow to the MK. both had exhausted the use of their respected items (the CKs artifact burned out in the fourth melée when the MK kept using magic spells to hinder him... Primarily from his SoA). And the MKs armor crumpled to dust, after having used both sorcerous fury, and magic adrenal rush at the same time.... And failing to strike the MK due to range issues... He tried, admittedly, to quickly close the distance on this one... But failed.

Once the negative side effects (and the torrent of mystic fury) wore off, the MK was barely able to stand. After that, it was a fairly one sided battle. The CK, having at this point in the battle lost his Cosmic Armor, went in for the kill, got arrogant and sustained over 400 points of damage before deciding to play smart again. He knew the MK HAD to be on his last foot and then rolled a Nat 20 (the only one in the WHOLE DARN FIGHT!) on a dual strike (he rolled a 12 on the second strike) and inflicted a whopping 318 MDC with one strike and a respective 40 with the second hit (I avoided homeruling damage for traveling at Mach 6... but I wanted to!). The MK rolled a 2 to dodge... And POP went his head.

In the end the buddy playing the MK threw his third empty can of Monster at the CK and accused him of cheating... I had to stop the two of them from going at it right there in my living room. Honestly, I thought the MK would win, in this particular case though, he didn't. The two of them pulled out all the stops, each one was presumptuous about winning, made mistakes, took risks (grappling with someone who burns you with mystic energy just by touching them... Not the best of ideas!), and blundered up on more than a few rolls (even with each one having combat bonuses in the mid 10s, it doesn't matter when they're THAT close in number range), rolling the dice and gaming style wad the key factors here, the MK PC thought he was invincible and COULD NOT be beaten, so he took more liberties with his MDC. The CK, on the other hand, got REAL cautious with his attacks when his armor started melting away due to mystic attacks (amazing how quickly a SoA's ranged attacks can take down armor...).

So, again, attitude played a heavy part. The MK had more, collective, MDC than the CK, but squandered it. The whole fight took 17 melée rounds (some of that was at range and/or waiting), and over 2600 MD was dealt between the two characters.

CK wins, but not by a landslide.

[DBX]

THE RESULTS ARE IN!!

(I always wanted to do that! :3 )

What other versus battles do people want to see.


several years back people wanted to play out dunscon vs adult dragon (written up as player character). don't know how it turned out

[cornholioprime]

THE RESULTS ARE IN!!

(I always wanted to do that! :3 )

What other versus battles do people want to see.


several years back people wanted to play out dunscon vs adult dragon (written up as player character). don't know how it turned out

1,458 PPE or not, to this very day I remain EXTREMELY dubious that anyone or anything that has Dunscon's stats could survive a fight against an Adult Dragon.

(For our other colleagues who might not have the book, in Rifts: Federation of Magic, Dunscon [apparently] single-handedly, took out an adult dragon in a magical duel for the leadership of the Federation. At least, that's what canon leads us to believe.)

[Riftdevil]

The MK won’t be surprised because he starts with Sixth Sense.

Would sixth sense even work, I thought its range was 90'? Therefore, I always played that it wasn't effective against snipers and as the CK moves faster than a bullet in atmosphere sixth sense wouldn't trigger, at least against the flying body block. Btw I don't think that an MK would win even one out of ten fights with a CK!!

[Zer0 Kay]

Again the code does not say must accept surrender of enemy and a CK would know that an MK is never truely disarmed so the CK is always free to fight the MK under his code.

MKs are disarmed if they're out of PPE and ISP.

Um on the second part did you mean that you fail to see where it says a CK has to destroy a MK?

Yes, that was the part I was talking about.

Well CKs can detect PPE/ISP and they are not stupid so it is best to consider a mage always armed unless:
a) there is the kid with the bag of rocks (constant state of disruption)
b) the mage has suddenly been upgraded with spontanious bionics

The Kid with a bag of rocks is no longer a threat. level 1-5 spells are impossible to interrupt as of RUE. And for palladium fantasy, the Mysteries of Magic book says that you have to deal 8 or more damage in a single blow to disrupt a spell, so a kid with a bag of rocks won't do enough damage to disrupt anything there either.

So what about a pair of gauntlets that completely immobilize the hands and deliver constant severe pain?

[Zer0 Kay]

The MK won’t be surprised because he starts with Sixth Sense.

Would sixth sense even work, I thought its range was 90'? Therefore, I always played that it wasn't effective against snipers and as the CK moves faster than a bullet in atmosphere sixth sense wouldn't trigger, at least against the flying body block. Btw I don't think that an MK would win even one out of ten fights with a CK!!

That isn't if the attacker is within 90' that is if something is going to happen within 90' to them or someone really close to them, emotionally not physically.

[Riftdevil]

The MK won’t be surprised because he starts with Sixth Sense.

Would sixth sense even work, I thought its range was 90'? Therefore, I always played that it wasn't effective against snipers and as the CK moves faster than a bullet in atmosphere sixth sense wouldn't trigger, at least against the flying body block. Btw I don't think that an MK would win even one out of ten fights with a CK!!

That isn't if the attacker is within 90' that is if something is going to happen within 90' to them or someone really close to them, emotionally not physically.

Thanks, so I've been a mean DM. In the past I allowed it in close gunfights and melee combat, but not for long range combat! Unfortunately, I haven't ran a game or played in about 6 years, so I'm relearning the rules!! Just bought RUE!

[Zer0 Kay]

The MK won’t be surprised because he starts with Sixth Sense.

Would sixth sense even work, I thought its range was 90'? Therefore, I always played that it wasn't effective against snipers and as the CK moves faster than a bullet in atmosphere sixth sense wouldn't trigger, at least against the flying body block. Btw I don't think that an MK would win even one out of ten fights with a CK!!

That isn't if the attacker is within 90' that is if something is going to happen within 90' to them or someone really close to them, emotionally not physically.

Thanks, so I've been a mean DM. In the past I allowed it in close gunfights and melee combat, but not for long range combat! Unfortunately, I haven't ran a game or played in about 6 years, so I'm relearning the rules!! Just bought RUE!

Yeah... we argued it to death in a Prosek assassination thread.