Rifts "Sniper"

[Tyranneix]

I agree with you KC on the range and damage output of the second weapon, however. The established range values on lasers put them between 1600-4000 feet, with the high end being vehicle mounted weapons used by Robots and Power Armor.

No it's a 55 pound laser rifle with a built in nuclear power cell (uses E-Clips as well). has massive penalties to strike unless it's properly braced or fired from a prone position. Then it's +1. -9 to strike if not braced or fired while prone. not bad for a laser rifle. it's huge heavy and cannot be fired like an assault rifle.

Right... but as he says, the established range on lasers is between 1600' and 4000', and that's including vehicle-mounted weapons that are huge, heavy, nuclear powered (and not just by a portable cell), and cannot be fired by an assault rifle.
Nothing in these previous weapons about having to be fired braced or prone, but they're vehicle mounted so it's pretty safe to assume that they're already braced pretty well.

I think the weapon is intended to be a new breakthrough in weapon technology, but it's hard to say unless the flavor text mentions something along those lines. It's not like we haven't ended up with weapons that have odd ranges before.

According to text the weapon is designed specifically to snipe gargoyles. which may explain the range and the damage.

[Killer Cyborg]

According to text the weapon is designed specifically to snipe gargoyles. which may explain the range and the damage.

Not exactly.
All that tells us is intent of the weapon, not how they achieved the results that they did, breaking previous records for similar weapons.
A desire to have a weapon that can accomplish a specific goal does not mean that the desire can be achieved.

[Colt47]

According to text the weapon is designed specifically to snipe gargoyles. which may explain the range and the damage.

Not exactly.
All that tells us is intent of the weapon, not how they achieved the results that they did, breaking previous records for similar weapons.
A desire to have a weapon that can accomplish a specific goal does not mean that the desire can be achieved.

Again, this is starting to go into the Palladium problem area with consistency on statistics. I understand they got different writers for every book, but they really need to have some kind of standard set for the different statistics of vehicles, weapons, armor, and tools.

[Killer Cyborg]

According to text the weapon is designed specifically to snipe gargoyles. which may explain the range and the damage.

Not exactly.
All that tells us is intent of the weapon, not how they achieved the results that they did, breaking previous records for similar weapons.
A desire to have a weapon that can accomplish a specific goal does not mean that the desire can be achieved.

Again, this is starting to go into the Palladium problem area with consistency on statistics. I understand they got different writers for every book, but they really need to have some kind of standard set for the different statistics of vehicles, weapons, armor, and tools.

Definitely.

[Gamer]

So why is a sniper systems effective range of 5000' suddenly a big deal?
If you look at R:UE ranged penalties section there is a shooting 30% beyond normal range:-5 penalty.
Add that to the basic 4000' range and you get 5200.
All they simply did was make a high precision long range sniper system.
They simply took away the -5 penalty for tagging targets at 5000'.
This isn't a vehicle coax weapon and this isn't standard infantry weapon.
This is an advanced high precision long range sniping system, that was it's requirement "intent" it's not that hard to accomplish.
Armorers in the military today modify standard "what was received" sniping systems and increase their effectiveness beyond what the manufacturers requirements were, so this shouldn't be a surprise at all.

The only real surprise from even the technologically advanced Triax for that system is the damage at that range for a man portable system which in overall performance is very close to what the latest CS main battle tanks are doing which helps generate the power creep sarcasm.

[Killer Cyborg]

So why is a sniper systems effective range of 5000' suddenly a big deal?
If you look at R:UE ranged penalties section there is a shooting 30% beyond normal range:-5 penalty.
Add that to the basic 4000' range and you get 5200.
All they simply did was make a high precision long range sniper system.

4000' IS a high precision long range sniper system.
If they had the tech to do better, they would have.

Armorers in the military today modify standard "what was received" sniping systems and increase their effectiveness beyond what the manufacturers requirements were, so this shouldn't be a surprise at all.

There are rules for modifying conventional weapons for higher performance.
Not so much with mega-damage weapons.
Presumably they're already as good as they can get.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Not so much with mega-damage weapons.
Presumably they're already as good as they can get.

The established range of 1600' to 4000' was made in the original Rifts Main Book. The shorter range weapons being the lower end Northern Gun stuff, while the 4000' range belonging to the pre-Rifts JA series of laser weapons. IIRC, the JA series were from Germany as well.

Now it make's sense to me that Triax, which didn't loose a whole lot of their tech or expertise, would after nearly 300 years, come up with something better. Time marches on, and the weapons technology has to continue to get better.

(Basically I don't have a problem with the range of this new Triax sniper weapon itself, the problem is with Rifts scaling in general.)

[Killer Cyborg]

Not so much with mega-damage weapons.
Presumably they're already as good as they can get.

The established range of 1600' to 4000' was made in the original Rifts Main Book.

With the 4000' range being with weapons made from Golden Age technology that cannot be outdone by post-rifts technology.

The shorter range weapons being the lower end Northern Gun stuff, while the 4000' range belonging to the pre-Rifts JA series of laser weapons. IIRC, the JA series were from Germany as well.

Now it make's sense to me that Triax, which didn't loose a whole lot of their tech or expertise, would after nearly 300 years, come up with something better. Time marches on, and the weapons technology has to continue to get better.

1. L-O-S-E. Lose. Look it up.
2. No, weapon technology got a big setback, and has slowly crept back towards where it once was.
But it's not there yet.

[Dustin Fireblade]

1. L-O-S-E. Lose. Look it up.
2. No, weapon technology got a big setback, and has slowly crept back towards where it once was.
But it's not there yet.

You seriously going to get hung up on a typo?

In regards to your second point, Triax maintained a lot....

With 50% of its factories and manufacturing resources intact and 84% of its technology preserved...

I'm also pretty sure that the JA series of rifles are new production runs, so exact pre-rifts Golden Age weaponry has been duplicated, for a while now. Also as mentioned in Phase World (paraphrasing), nations of Rifts Earth have spent millions of credits worth on development. Considering the number of other pre-rifts facilities that survived/rifted forward in time I also don't see a big loss. (Wilks, Lone Star, KLS in Quebec, Bandito, Tundra Rangers, the Japan cities, Geo-Front, and whatever is in South America and Russia).

Lot's of intact facilities + lots of money = better weapons.

[Killer Cyborg]

1. L-O-S-E. Lose. Look it up.
2. No, weapon technology got a big setback, and has slowly crept back towards where it once was.
But it's not there yet.

You seriously going to get hung up on a typo?

A typo is when you hit the wrong key.
Unless there's a hell of a lot of malfunctioning O keys across the nation, the problem is that a lot of people actually don't know how to spell the word.
That's not a typo; it's ignorance.

If what you did there was an actual typo, then cool. Never mind.

In regards to your second point, Triax maintained a lot....

With 50% of its factories and manufacturing resources intact and 84% of its technology preserved...

I'm also pretty sure that the JA series of rifles are new production runs, so exact pre-rifts Golden Age weaponry has been duplicated, for a while now.

Oh, it's been duplicated. People can make JA-11s and whatever else they have the factories for.
But coming up with new tech that beats the stuff from the Golden Age?
Not so much.
Which is why the 4000' limit is more or less still standing.

Also as mentioned in Phase World (paraphrasing), nations of Rifts Earth have spent millions of credits worth on development. Considering the number of other pre-rifts facilities that survived/rifted forward in time I also don't see a big loss. (Wilks, Lone Star, KLS in Quebec, Bandito, Tundra Rangers, the Japan cities, Geo-Front, and whatever is in South America and Russia).

Lot's of intact facilities + lots of money = better weapons.

No.
Lot's of intact facilities + lots of money = the possibility of better weapons.
Just throwing money at something doesn't guarantee results, and having the facilities to make one kind of weapon doesn't mean that you can make something better.

But hey, let's go with your equation to see how it pans out.
Lot's of intact facilities + lots of money = better weapons.
Who has more money, and who has more intact facilities?
a) A post-apocalypse nation with a more than decimated population and some leftover stuff.
b) A pre-apocalypse nation chock full of people living in the Golden Age of humanity.

So of the two, who's going to have the "better weapons"?

(The answer is B)

[Dustin Fireblade]

No.
Lot's of intact facilities + lots of money = the possibility of better weapons.
Just throwing money at something doesn't guarantee results, and having the facilities to make one kind of weapon doesn't mean that you can make something better.

But hey, let's go with your equation to see how it pans out.
Lot's of intact facilities + lots of money = better weapons.
Who has more money, and who has more intact facilities?
a) A post-apocalypse nation with a more than decimated population and some leftover stuff.
b) A pre-apocalypse nation chock full of people living in the Golden Age of humanity.

So of the two, who's going to have the "better weapons"?

(The answer is B)

Nearly all those facilities I named were in pretty darn good condition - I believe some were even described as "pristine" condition. We also don't know how many facilities there actually were pre-Rifts, what was lost or survived. For all we know the single Wilks plant that was found was the one and only of it's kind for example. Since MD weapons are suppose to be rare, that could be a possibility. While there was a "cold war" and "arms race" in pre-Rifts times, the people weren't exactly fighting for the survival of the species either. I may be wrong, but I believe that a good many people support the military industry. Probably more than in pre-Rifts times.

Besides, we all know Rifts isn't a post-apocalypse setting anymore.

At any rate, I really don't see the problem with a single nation building a weapon that will see limited fielding/use, especially given everything else they have.

[Killer Cyborg]

No.
Lot's of intact facilities + lots of money = the possibility of better weapons.
Just throwing money at something doesn't guarantee results, and having the facilities to make one kind of weapon doesn't mean that you can make something better.

But hey, let's go with your equation to see how it pans out.
Lot's of intact facilities + lots of money = better weapons.
Who has more money, and who has more intact facilities?
a) A post-apocalypse nation with a more than decimated population and some leftover stuff.
b) A pre-apocalypse nation chock full of people living in the Golden Age of humanity.

So of the two, who's going to have the "better weapons"?

(The answer is B)

Nearly all those facilities I named were in pretty darn good condition - I believe some were even described as "pristine" condition.

I don't believe that I ever said they were dirty or anything.

We also don't know how many facilities there actually were pre-Rifts, what was lost or survived.

Unless you're assuming that a bunch of new factories rifted in, I think it's safe to assume that post-apocalypse Earth has fewer.

For all we know the single Wilks plant that was found was the one and only of it's kind for example.

Probably not the way to bet, though.

Since MD weapons are suppose to be rare, that could be a possibility. While there was a "cold war" and "arms race" in pre-Rifts times, the people weren't exactly fighting for the survival of the species either. I may be wrong, but I believe that a good many people support the military industry. Probably more than in pre-Rifts times.

Percentage-wise, probably.
But not numbers-wise.

Besides, we all know Rifts isn't a post-apocalypse setting anymore.

I disagree.

At any rate, I really don't see the problem with a single nation building a weapon that will see limited fielding/use, especially given everything else they have.

I don't see a problem with the US building a few veritech fighters.
Except, of course, we don't have the technology for doing so, and it might not even be possible.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Except, of course, we don't have the technology for doing so, and it might not even be possible.

This seems to be what you're really hung up on. You think Triax can't build a infantry scaled laser weapon that can shoot 5000 feet? Keeping in mind that - it's payload isn't all that great, it has limited firing position, it's bonus isn't great when firing correctly, weighs as much 11 of the Triax SL12 sniper rifles and requires two people to break down and transport.

It may not be the greatest, but its what Triax does (pushing the envelope of weapons technology - there's at least a page or two in Triax 2 devoted to just that IIRC).

[Killer Cyborg]

Except, of course, we don't have the technology for doing so, and it might not even be possible.

This seems to be what you're really hung up on. You think Triax can't build a infantry scaled laser weapon that can shoot 5000 feet?/quote]

Sure they can... if they come up with technology that surpasses the Golden Age.
But they can't, not unless Kev says they can for some reason.
If he says they can, but doesn't provide any reason, then it's official that they've made some new discovery or something, but it's really sloppy work.

As a general rule, though, there's no reason why a post-Rifts nation should surpass the technology produced in the Golden Age.

[Killer Cyborg]

You think Triax can't build a infantry scaled laser weapon that can shoot 5000 feet? Keeping in mind that - it's payload isn't all that great, it has limited firing position, it's bonus isn't great when firing correctly, weighs as much 11 of the Triax SL12 sniper rifles and requires two people to break down and transport.

You know what I'd do with one of those?
Give it a robot or somebody in power armor.
Payload is now infinite, weight isn't an issue, no need to break it down to transport it.
Also, stick it on vehicles.
Give it to somebody with supernatural PS and a nuclear power source.

And the person who wrote the next Rifts book would want to make a smaller, lighter version, or would come up with a weapon that's "only slightly more powerful."
And that's how power creep happens, and settings get slowly destroyed.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Except, of course, we don't have the technology for doing so, and it might not even be possible.

This seems to be what you're really hung up on. You think Triax can't build a infantry scaled laser weapon that can shoot 5000 feet?/quote]

Sure they can... if they come up with technology that surpasses the Golden Age.
But they can't, not unless Kev says they can for some reason.
If he says they can, but doesn't provide any reason, then it's official that they've made some new discovery or something, but it's really sloppy work.

As a general rule, though, there's no reason why a post-Rifts nation should surpass the technology produced in the Golden Age.

So the Triax robot drones aren't better than the NEMA ones?
Are the Triax robot vehicles not better than NEMA?
Did Triax not build better Glitter Boys?
Did Triax not create a ballistic MD weapon other than a rail gun, something that NEMA did not have?
Does the Triax enhanced particle beam technology not beat NEMA? (Which I don't think even used particle beams to be honest)
I might also be wrong, but I don't believe NEMA had force field technology - something Triax has.
Did they also not come up with heavy MD armor that has no prowl penalty?

A good number of the above was in WB5 btw. Again I point back to the fact that Triax retained a lot, and have had 300 years to build on it.

I pretty much thought it was a given that nations like the NGR, CS had pre-Rifts tech and were already moving past it. Even Cordoba and the Empire of the Sun in South America have created new weapons technology.

You know what I'd do with one of those?
Give it a robot or somebody in power armor.
Payload is now infinite, weight isn't an issue, no need to break it down to transport it.
Also, stick it on vehicles.
Give it to somebody with supernatural PS and a nuclear power source.

I don't believe you've read the description then?

[Killer Cyborg]

As a general rule, though, there's no reason why a post-Rifts nation should surpass the technology produced in the Golden Age.

So the Triax robot drones aren't better than the NEMA ones?
Are the Triax robot vehicles not better than NEMA?

Not really the issue unless NEMA was the best tech in all areas of the planet during the Golden Age.
The better question would be whether Triax stuff is better than the pre-Rifts stuff that was left over in their territory.

Did Triax not build better Glitter Boys?

Nope. They just modified one kind of existing technology to integrate other kinds of existing technology.

Did Triax not create a ballistic MD weapon other than a rail gun, something that NEMA did not have?

I don't really know what NEMA did or did not have, except that they didn't have the best tech on the planet.
What ballistic MD weapon are you talking about?

Does the Triax enhanced particle beam technology not beat NEMA? (Which I don't think even used particle beams to be honest)
I might also be wrong, but I don't believe NEMA had force field technology - something Triax has.
Did they also not come up with heavy MD armor that has no prowl penalty?

Again, not a valid comparison.

I pretty much thought it was a given that nations like the NGR, CS had pre-Rifts tech and were already moving past it. Even Cordoba and the Empire of the Sun in South America have created new weapons technology.

Nope.

You know what I'd do with one of those?
Give it a robot or somebody in power armor.
Payload is now infinite, weight isn't an issue, no need to break it down to transport it.
Also, stick it on vehicles.
Give it to somebody with supernatural PS and a nuclear power source.

I don't believe you've read the description then?

Nope.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Less than a dozen nations had MD tech, the NEMA alliance among them (and Germany too). I'm pretty sure Chaos Earth stated that NEMA had the best of the best. Triax was on the cutting edge and a rival to the KLS Corp in North America (designer of the Glitter Boy). Again I point to the fact that a lot of their infrastructure survived the Rifts and was something to build on.

- Better Glitter Boys: you may be right, but it's still innovation which is something you seem to be against or seem to think can't be done post-Rifts?

- The TX series of weapons: Nothing pre-Rifts about a paintball-sized explosive round that packs the power of a grenade that I'm aware of.

- I'm not sure why the force field isn't a valid comparison. This is what we are talking about. A post-Rifts nation having something better than pre-Rifts. In other words moving past the pre-Rifts tech "barrier" that you seem to think exists.

- Likewise the improved body armor. I forgot about the stealth field in Triax 2.

- And ditto again on particle beam technology, and its improved critical chances.

- Before you discount Cordoba and Empire of the Sun, you might want to read the descriptions for the "Death Mirrors" on the Mastodon robot vehicle, the NP-10 or the Sun Empire's "Solar Combat Armor" - all of which are new build/technology developed post-Rifts.

- Even Northern Gun has created new items, such as the NG Stalker and it's Anti-Ballistic armor, and its self-charging power packs.


Keep in mind that anything in the Rifts book that is a pre-Rifts weapon is described as such, at least to the best of my knowledge. All the above is new post-Rifts developments.

Weapons technology advances much faster in times of war. When nations are strictly in a "species survival" mode such as Rifts Earth I again refer back to the passage in Phase World that states the Rifts Earth have closed the technology gap.


Regarding the weapon in question itself -
It has to be fired prone or braced if you want any accuracy - irregardless of the user's strength level. Even a supernatural strong creature suffers a penalty to strike unless it's prone/braced. Cyborgs and PA can't use this as a "assault rifle" in any real capacity.


It's really not that big of a game changer.

[Killer Cyborg]

Less than a dozen nations had MD tech, the NEMA alliance among them (and Germany too). I'm pretty sure Chaos Earth stated that NEMA had the best of the best. Triax was on the cutting edge and a rival to the KLS Corp in North America (designer of the Glitter Boy). Again I point to the fact that a lot of their infrastructure survived the Rifts and was something to build on.

Let me know if you find anything in the books to support that.

- Better Glitter Boys: you may be right, but it's still innovation which is something you seem to be against or seem to think can't be done post-Rifts?

Not at all. People are still people, and we're some pretty clever monkeys who figure out new ways to do things all the time. We take surfboards and sails and come up with windsurfing, for example.
But such innovation is simply the combining of two existing technologies, not inventing or improving on an existing technology.
Taking an existing model car, and existing model car radio, and slapping them together doesn't mean that you've invented new technology.
Creating a car that can go faster and farther than any previous existing car, THAT would be inventing new technology.
Creating a laser rifle that beats all previous records for range, THAT would be inventing something new.

But I'm not even saying that they can't invent something new; I'm saying that they can't surpass the tech in the golden age. Not the stuff they were really good at, anyway, like laser weapons.
And I say this because that's essentially what the books have said, time and time again.

- The TX series of weapons: Nothing pre-Rifts about a paintball-sized explosive round that packs the power of a grenade that I'm aware of.

Borgs in the main book could shoot a .22 sized explosive pellet that inflicted 1d4 MD.
In MiO, they have explosive rounds for firearms that inflict 1d6 MD.
In each case, there's no indication that this is anything developed after the coming of the Rifts.

But I'm also curious where the books say that the TX series was developed after the coming of the Rifts?
And where they describe the size of the rounds?

- I'm not sure why the force field isn't a valid comparison. This is what we are talking about. A post-Rifts nation having something better than pre-Rifts. In other words moving past the pre-Rifts tech "barrier" that you seem to think exists.

The force field is a valid comparison.
Comparing it to NEMA is not. You'd have to compare it to what Germany and/or Europe had in the Golden Age.
But while we're on the subject, where does it say that the Triax force fields are a new invention?

- Likewise the improved body armor. I forgot about the stealth field in Triax 2.

Improved over what?
What about the stealth field?

- And ditto again on particle beam technology, and its improved critical chances.

I don't have Triax 2, so if you're talking about stuff in that book you're going to have to explain if you want me to understand.

- Before you discount Cordoba and Empire of the Sun, you might want to read the descriptions for the "Death Mirrors" on the Mastodon robot vehicle, the NP-10 or the Sun Empire's "Solar Combat Armor" - all of which are new build/technology developed post-Rifts.

How about you quote the relevant passages?

- Even Northern Gun has created new items, such as the NG Stalker and it's Anti-Ballistic armor, and its self-charging power packs.

That's not surpassing anything golden-age that I'm aware of.

Keep in mind that anything in the Rifts book that is a pre-Rifts weapon is described as such, at least to the best of my knowledge. All the above is new post-Rifts developments.

Rifts, 208
It doesn't matter whether the weapon has been newly built or sitting in storage for 200 years and recently unearthed, cleaned, and recharged, it is still an excellent working weapon. In fact, many mercenaries, especially Headhunters, prefer an authentic Pre-Rifts weapon and will pay 30% more for it. NOTE: There is no practical difference between old weapons and new weapons. Any perceived difference is purely psychological.

That's talking about mega-damage weapons, and there's nothing to indicate that it's only talking about a few specific types here or there. It indicates to me that of the weapons in the main book, unless something is described as new, then there are likely to be both pre-rifts and post-rifts examples of it.
There are going to be some cases, like a lot of the CS weapons, where they're "new" in the sense that they're slightly different knock-offs of the original weapons, but as far as I'm concerned if a weapon doesn't say it's new, then it's not new.

If you have anything in the books that runs contrary to that, please let me know.

Weapons technology advances much faster in times of war.

That certainly explains why the Middle East has a lot of high-tech weapons and we're stuck using surplus AK-47s from the Cold War.

When nations are strictly in a "species survival" mode such as Rifts Earth I again refer back to the passage in Phase World that states the Rifts Earth have closed the technology gap.

Okay, refer back to it.

Regarding the weapon in question itself -
It has to be fired prone or braced if you want any accuracy - irregardless of the user's strength level. Even a supernatural strong creature suffers a penalty to strike unless it's prone/braced. Cyborgs and PA can't use this as a "assault rifle" in any real capacity.

So this weapon would knock a Glitter Boy on his butt?
Or a borg with built-in pylons?
Man, that laser has a lot of kick.

Guess they'll just have to lie down when they use it.
Somehow, I don't think that'd make it useless.

Or they could mount it on a Bot or vehicle.

It's really not that big of a game changer.

Agreed.
That's why it's called "Power Creep," not "Power Pole-Vault."

[Dustin Fireblade]

NEMA having the most advanced tech....

As an elite police and military force, NEMA was given access to many of the most advanced......and military innovations and equipment (including prototypes)

....NEMA has access to the most advanced military resources in the country, including high-tech, Mega-Damage power armor, special weapons and prototype equipment

I shortened the sentences a bit to remove the stuff about criminal investigations and whatnot.

And I say this because that's essentially what the books have said, time and time again.

Ok..source?

Creating a car that can go faster and farther than any previous existing car, THAT would be inventing new technology.

Oh so like the CS Super-SAMAS and Striker over the pre-Rifts Silver Eagle then? Both can fly faster and higher

Or yeah a laser rifle that can shoot more than 4000 feet?

]But I'm also curious where the books say that the TX series was developed after the coming of the Rifts?
And where they describe the size of the rounds?

Page 58 of the original Source book 1

"The pump rifle is a new concept in mega-damage assault rifles that uses projectiles..."

Sorry the size is conjecture, but it's described as "high explosive pellets/bullets which are much smaller than the conventional grenade."

But while we're on the subject, where does it say that the Triax force fields are a new invention?

In WB5, pg 70 -
"One the most impressive 'new' developments is the mega-damage capacity force field generator that has been integrated into the overall system."

To the best of my knowledge, there's never been any mention of a force field used pre-Rifts.


On improved body armor -

The T-42 is Triax Industries latest innovation in body armor. ....incorporates a revolutionary, new, hybrid, super lightweight armor.

Net result? No prowl penalty for anyone wearing the T-42.

I'll withdraw the part about the stealth field. It's based on pre-Rifts tech, but apparently took Triax a long time to figure out/perfect.


Regarding the particle beam weapons in Triax 2 -
All new infantry scale particle beam weapons grant shooter's a critical shot on a Natural 19 or 20 strike roll.

On Cordoba -

The ears of the pseudo-elephant hide a new weapon development by Cordoba researchers

On Empire of the Sun -
The Solar Combat armor was researched by the empire's tech, but couldn't be created. It took a team from the Babylonian Guilds to build. Since it doesn't say this was purely a human breakthrough I'll withdraw it.

On Northern Guns new items -
If you find something that says it was also a pre-Rifts item, and not a new item then please cite your source.

Rifts, 208
It doesn't matter whether the weapon has been newly built or sitting in storage for 200 years and recently unearthed, cleaned, and recharged, it is still an excellent working weapon. In fact, many mercenaries, especially Headhunters, prefer an authentic Pre-Rifts weapon and will pay 30% more for it. NOTE: There is no practical difference between old weapons and new weapons. Any perceived difference is purely psychological.

That's talking about mega-damage weapons, and there's nothing to indicate that it's only talking about a few specific types here or there. It indicates to me that of the weapons in the main book, unless something is described as new, then there are likely to be both pre-rifts and post-rifts examples of it.
There are going to be some cases, like a lot of the CS weapons, where they're "new" in the sense that they're slightly different knock-offs of the original weapons, but as far as I'm concerned if a weapon doesn't say it's new, then it's not new.

If you have anything in the books that runs contrary to that, please let me kno

You think that Wilks and Northern Gun were building their weapons pre-Rifts?

Wilks at least was not building weapons pre-Rifts. New West page 203 has a quick profile on Wilks

...catering to the needs of the various civilian users of the laser, primarily the medical field. Gradually, Wilks expanded to into the area's of precise laser distancing mechanisms for geographic surveying and construction, security systems and even aquired a small contract with the ancient American Empire's Armed Forces to build a small number of advanced laser guidance systems.

It looks to me like Wilks began producing their laser weapons post-rifts...

Don't know enough about Northern Gun, but I think it's safe to say most of their weapons technology is based on pre-Rifts. They've created some new stuff, but for the most part they are using pre-Rifts tech.

That certainly explains why the Middle East has a lot of high-tech weapons and we're stuck using surplus AK-47s from the Cold War.

What?

So this weapon would knock a Glitter Boy on his butt?
Or a borg with built-in pylons?
Man, that laser has a lot of kick.

Guess they'll just have to lie down when they use it.
Somehow, I don't think that'd make it useless.

Or they could mount it on a Bot or vehicle.

They could mount it on a vehicle, that is described as a possible way to use it. It also describes that the kick of the weapon is so great the weapon must be braced against something heavy or fired from a prone position. Likewise it specifically states it cannot be fired accurately from the hip by, while moving or from a standing position even by cyborgs and power armor. It doesn't gi

So yeah, they'd have to lay down and use it. I believe that's how most snipers work anyway....



Here's something for you -

Triax has always taken its role as the sole military developer for the NGR quite seriously, and works diligently at fine tuning and perfecting all manner of new weapons technologies......For years Triax has sought out new and innovative ways to combat the Gargoyle menace, and many new technologies, such as the U- and DU- rounds, are the result of that research

[Killer Cyborg]

You think that Wilks and Northern Gun were building their weapons pre-Rifts?

Wilks at least was not building weapons pre-Rifts. New West page 203 has a quick profile on Wilks

...catering to the needs of the various civilian users of the laser, primarily the medical field. Gradually, Wilks expanded to into the area's of precise laser distancing mechanisms for geographic surveying and construction, security systems and even aquired a small contract with the ancient American Empire's Armed Forces to build a small number of advanced laser guidance systems.

It looks to me like Wilks began producing their laser weapons post-rifts...

I'm going to focus on this for a moment, and put the other stuff on hold for now.

Flip open your book and keep reading.
The next sentence is:

Wilk's Laser Technologies would quickly become the leader in civilian laser manufacturing, and number two in the military application of lasers. Within 10 years the company was worth trillions...

Now look over in the next column:

Initially, Wallace wisely focused on what the Wilk's company had always done best, lasers, and not just guns, but laser distancers, scalpels and medical equipment, optics...

So we have a company "born early during the Golden Age of science, before the Great Cataclysm." It built laser equipment and got a military contract.
Very quickly, they became the #2 guys for "military application of lasers."
After the apocalypse, Wallace found some old factories and got the business going again, focusing on the stuff that Wilk's was best at, which includes "not just guns."

What part makes it look like they started making laser guns after the apocalypse?

[Dustin Fireblade]

What part makes it look like they started making laser guns after the apocalypse?

Because Chaos Earth tells us that military grade MD weapons were strictly controlled (ie to the government only), and military application of lasers is more than just guns. The only indication that they had a military contract was for targeting systems, and a small one at that.

[Killer Cyborg]

What part makes it look like they started making laser guns after the apocalypse?

Because Chaos Earth tells us that military grade MD weapons were strictly controlled (ie to the government only), and military application of lasers is more than just guns. The only indication that they had a military contract was for targeting systems, and a small one at that.

Civilian use and ownership of military grade weapons is always restricted.
This does not mean that the manufacturing of such weapons is not done by civilian companies.
In fact, outside of communist nations, the weapons for the military are always manufactured by civilians.

"More than just guns" is inclusive of "guns." It is "Guns + more."
Which means that it IS guns.

So when the book says that Wilk's went back to their strength of manufacturing lasers, for "more than just guns," that means that they went back to manufacturing lasers for Guns, and also more stuff.

It all seems pretty clear to me.

[Dustin Fireblade]

It all seems pretty clear to me.

Sorry don't see it.

Who would they have sold them too for one? NEMA and the US Army already had better/superior weapons (the Marine Corps didn't use lasers according to Underseas). They certainly were not selling them to foreign countries.

Two, I submit that the realities of Rifts Earth forced Wallace to build weapons as an expansion to its laser technologies.

Third - It's actually "not just guns" vs "more than just guns." To me this is saying that Wilks has become so well known for it's guns as indicated by it's status post-Rifts, that the author wanted to reinforce to us that the company also sold other items, and "not just guns"

[Killer Cyborg]

NEMA having the most advanced tech....

As an elite police and military force, NEMA was given access to many of the most advanced......and military innovations and equipment (including prototypes)

You left out the rest of that sentence. The part where it says "military innovations and equipment (including prototypes) in North America.
Doesn't seem quite honest on your part.

....NEMA has access to the most advanced military resources in the country, including high-tech, Mega-Damage power armor, special weapons and prototype equipment

I shortened the sentences a bit to remove the stuff about criminal investigations and whatnot.

Most advanced military resources in the country.
Germany is not in the United States.

And I say this because that's essentially what the books have said, time and time again.

Ok..source?

Fair enough. I'll respond to this in another post.

Creating a car that can go faster and farther than any previous existing car, THAT would be inventing new technology.

Oh so like the CS Super-SAMAS and Striker over the pre-Rifts Silver Eagle then? Both can fly faster and higher

They can, but it's not exactly what I was talking about.
The Silver Eagle had one main rear jet, two upper maneuvering jets, and two lower maneuvering jets. It's top speed is 300 mph.
The Super Samas has three main rear jets, four upper maneuvering jets, and three lower maneuvering jets. It's top speed is 500 mph.
The Striker Samas has two main rear jets, etc. It's top speed is 330 mph.

It's my fault, I suppose for not being clear enough in my above statement. I should have said something more like:
"Creating a car that can go faster and farther than any previous existing car, propelled by a more efficient engine."
The Super and Striker SAMs are more the equivalent of a car with 2-3 extra normal engines, with all the engines working together to move the car forward.

The purpose of a Silver Eagle was to be used primarily as a mobile infantry unit; It would usually fly to a location, land, and then start fighting. Aerial combat was an option in some cases, but it wasn't the primary focus. Moreover, it was designed primarily for urban combat, to take out specific enemies without taking down buildings. It was designed to be able to fit inside a conventional hallway or stairwell and move through conventional doorways.
The Super Samas was designed for aerial combat specifically, so it was designed to move as fast as possible, and they got it to do so by tripling the number of main thrusters in order to make a less than 50% gain in speed. It has room for extra thrusters, because the CS doesn't care if it can fit into conventional 21st century commercial buildings, so they were able to build it 5' taller (counting the jets) and 2' wider than the Silver Eagle.
The Striker Samas is a compromise between the two, standing two and a half a feet taller (counting the jets) than the Silver Eagle, and a foot and a half wider. It was designed for covert operations that wouldn't normally include entering 21st century commercial buildings.
The Golden Age techs could have built either of these two other designs, only better, if that had been their goal.
But it wasn't.
So it's not really an example of what I'm talking about.

Or yeah a laser rifle that can shoot more than 4000 feet?

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Even Nema laser cannons seem to have that 4000' limit to them.
If they break that ceiling post-Rifts, they should have a pretty darned good explanation for doing so.
Something better than "this device puts out so much light that it has enough recoil to send people flying" or "This laser beam apparently doesn't travel in a straight line, so it's not as accurate as one would expect."

Based on an experimental pre-Rifts design? Cool.
Stolen alien technology? Fine.
Miraculous breakthough discovery that allows it to out-range even most pre-Rifts designs? Good enough.

Let's add in some random downsides that don't make any sense, just for game balance? Nope. Not buying it.

Page 58 of the original Source book 1

"The pump rifle is a new concept in mega-damage assault rifles that uses projectiles..."

"A new concept in mega-damage assault rifles" isn't the same as "A new invention resulting in breakthroughs in explosives technology or ways to fire explosive rounds."
To me, all the sentence means is that nobody bothered to make a mega-damage projectile-based assault rifle before. Nema wouldn't see the need for it, because they had energy weapons and rail guns, which have superior range and/or damage.
(Well, they would have seen a need for it until after it was too late, and energy-resistant critters started showing up.)

Sorry the size is conjecture, but it's described as "high explosive pellets/bullets which are much smaller than the conventional grenade."

Okay.
In Mutants in Orbit, where they "hold the secrets of technology lost on Rifts Earth," they have explosive rounds for conventional rifles that inflict 1d6 MD per round.
An explosive round made using this same technology could be 4x (or more) the size of a normal 5.56mm bullet and would inflict 4d6 MD.
And it would still be "much smaller than the conventional grenade."

But while we're on the subject, where does it say that the Triax force fields are a new invention?

In WB5, pg 70 -
"One the most impressive 'new' developments is the mega-damage capacity force field generator that has been integrated into the overall system."

The fact that they put the word "new" in quotes indicates that it's not really NEW, but more likely rediscovered old technology.

To the best of my knowledge, there's never been any mention of a force field used pre-Rifts.

Fabricators Incorporated (VU 63-89) had at least two "air densifier barrier" devices (VU 82), as well as body armor that incorporated force fields.
True, this is Heroes Unlimited, which is probably not the same world as Rifts, but the history of Rifts Earth incorporates many of the same elements:
The Fabricators, for example, also have Virtual Reality Controlled robots, which are much the same as the MiO virtual reality controlled robots.
One of the later VU npcs listed is, Chiang-6, is a Chiang-Ku dragon.
The Usurper (VU 203) worked with Cyberworks on their A.R.C.H.I.E program, then later worked with the KLS corporation developing the "Glitter Boy" armor.
So the fact that the HU Earth had pre-Rifts force fields indicates that Rifts Earth may well have had the same technology, or some version of it.
Since very little is known about pre-Rifts Germany, I know of nothing that really says they had no force-field technology during the Golden Age.

Regarding the particle beam weapons in Triax 2 -
All new infantry scale particle beam weapons grant shooter's a critical shot on a Natural 19 or 20 strike roll.

Any particular reason why?

On Cordoba -

The ears of the pseudo-elephant hide a new weapon development by Cordoba researchers

I rather doubt that the pre-Rifts research into flashing elephant ears was non-existent, so that weapon doesn't really surpass any Golden Age tech that I'm aware of.
Except Japanese kids' cartoons.

On Northern Guns new items -
If you find something that says it was also a pre-Rifts item, and not a new item then please cite your source.

As I said, they don't surpass any Golden Age tech that I'm aware of, so it's not really an issue.
But I don't believe that the NG Stalker Suit or Anti-Ballistic armor are based on Golden Age tech.

MO, 87
Rather than try to win over prospective customers, the council intends to simply remove the competition through whatever means necessary, including industrial espionage, hostile takeovers, blackmail, sabotage, and disinformation. Top on their list is Naruni Enterprises...
Industrial Espionage includes stealing secrets from competitors.
Naruni is their top priority target for industrial espionage.
Naruni makes a number of armors that mask the wearer's thermal signature (NE-CW20, and their Thermo-Kinetic line of armors such as the NE-CS1, NE-BA-20 "Stalker" armor, and others).
Now Northern Gun makes a similar armor.
Naruni's Thermo-Kinetic armor also reduces kinetic energy attacks by half.
Now Northern Gun has an armor that reduces kinetic energy attacks by half.
Would it shock you to think that Northern Gun might have ripped off Naruni tech and incorporated it into their products?

Can't say much about the "self-charging power packs," because I'm not familiar with them.

That certainly explains why the Middle East has a lot of high-tech weapons and we're stuck using surplus AK-47s from the Cold War.

What?

I must have slipped into some parallel Earth where weapons technology always advances much faster in times of war, and so places under constant attack and turmoil were able to develop better technology than stable nations that haven't gone to war on their home soil in decades or longer.
My apologies if that sounded like nonsense in this world, due to the fact that in THIS world, even though war sometimes does bring forward leaps in technology (like WWII), it usually fails to bring any real new technology to the table, and in fact can prevent new discoveries from being made due to the fact that war soaks up resources and destroys infrastructure that is necessary for scientific advancement.
This is why the United States, where our massive infrastructure and population are left virtually untouched by war, tends to come up with a lot of technical improvements, innovations, and inventions.
This is also why war-torn regions like the Middle-East aren't known for their high-tech products or stunning new discoveries.
And it is a reason why the AK-47 is one of the main weapons of choice in such areas, instead of new weapons that these nations-at-war invent themselves.
(The AK, btw, was invented by Russia only after the Nazis were no longer a threat)

In short, I was being a **** in order to sarcastically point out to you that the theory you stated is only true to a very small degree if you look at it.

That being said, the Uzi was a pretty impressive technology to come out of the Middle-East, but it's an exception more than the rule, and it should be noted that Uziel Gal only created it after the Israel War of Independence, during a period of peace.

They could mount it on a vehicle, that is described as a possible way to use it. It also describes that the kick of the weapon is so great the weapon must be braced against something heavy or fired from a prone position. Likewise it specifically states it cannot be fired accurately from the hip by, while moving or from a standing position even by cyborgs and power armor. It doesn't gi

So yeah, they'd have to lay down and use it. I believe that's how most snipers work anyway....

So pretty much as I said.

Here's something for you -

Triax has always taken its role as the sole military developer for the NGR quite seriously, and works diligently at fine tuning and perfecting all manner of new weapons technologies......For years Triax has sought out new and innovative ways to combat the Gargoyle menace, and many new technologies, such as the U- and DU- rounds, are the result of that research

The U rounds ARE a new invention, simply because there was no need for them in the Golden Age so nobody would bother to make them.
We have Depleted Uranium Rounds NOW, so that's not really new.

[Killer Cyborg]

It all seems pretty clear to me.

Sorry don't see it.

I don't know how to break it down any simpler for you. Wilk's had military contracts and they manufactured guns.
It's right there in black and white.

Who would they have sold them too for one? NEMA and the US Army already had better/superior weapons (the Marine Corps didn't use lasers according to Underseas). They certainly were not selling them to foreign countries.

They were selling them to the military, since that's who their contracts were with. Probably NEMA too.
The books don't list every weapon in the military's arsenal, just a few of the ones most common in the US.
Maybe the Wilk's guns we're familiar with were used by troops overseas, or for special ops snipers, or were the standard for several years, then put into storage when some other company put out the NEW standard. (which would explain why they're the #2 guys instead of the #1)

No telling, really.

All we know is:
-Wilk's manufactured laser guns.
-Wilk's had contracts with the military.
-The military used laser guns.

Two, I submit that the realities of Rifts Earth forced Wallace to build weapons as an expansion to its laser technologies.

Nope. I don't buy it.
Initially (when they first re-opened), Wallace focused on "what the company had always done best, lasers, and not just guns..."
What the company had always done best = lasers, and not just guns.
What the company had always done = guns.

Third - It's actually "not just guns" vs "more than just guns." To me this is saying that Wilks has become so well known for it's guns as indicated by it's status post-Rifts, that the author wanted to reinforce to us that the company also sold other items, and "not just guns"

See above.

[Dustin Fireblade]

KC - sorry at this point I'm just not willing to keep reading and responding to this massive wall of text. I still disagree obviously on a number of points, and with all due respect I haven't seen anything to change my mind. It's been a very interesting and civil discussion though.

[Killer Cyborg]

Fair enough.

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE 356

Wilk's was the first to offer Mega-Damage weapons for sale. The technology of the past it had discovered did not include armor, robots or vehicles, but laser systems, including laser weapons, and advanced electronics and optics systems. Thus, it would focus on communications systems, laser weapons, laser related items and electronics...

[Dustin Fireblade]

RUE 356

Wilk's was the first to offer Mega-Damage weapons for sale. The technology of the past it had discovered did not include armor, robots or vehicles, but laser systems, including laser weapons, and advanced electronics and optics systems. Thus, it would focus on communications systems, laser weapons, laser related items and electronics...

Hmm ok good find.

Though I wonder if they built their own brand (the black ceramic/plastic style weapons) or if they built the NEMA weapons under their contract?

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE 356

Wilk's was the first to offer Mega-Damage weapons for sale. The technology of the past it had discovered did not include armor, robots or vehicles, but laser systems, including laser weapons, and advanced electronics and optics systems. Thus, it would focus on communications systems, laser weapons, laser related items and electronics...

Hmm ok good find.

Though I wonder if they built their own brand (the black ceramic/plastic style weapons) or if they built the NEMA weapons under their contract?

I suppose it's possible that they built weapons for NEMA before the apocalypse, then adopted their trademark design after the factory was rediscovered.

[gelidus]

You think that Wilks and Northern Gun were building their weapons pre-Rifts?

Wilks at least was not building weapons pre-Rifts. New West page 203 has a quick profile on Wilks

...catering to the needs of the various civilian users of the laser, primarily the medical field. Gradually, Wilks expanded to into the area's of precise laser distancing mechanisms for geographic surveying and construction, security systems and even aquired a small contract with the ancient American Empire's Armed Forces to build a small number of advanced laser guidance systems.

It looks to me like Wilks began producing their laser weapons post-rifts...

I'm going to focus on this for a moment, and put the other stuff on hold for now.

Flip open your book and keep reading.
The next sentence is:

Wilk's Laser Technologies would quickly become the leader in civilian laser manufacturing, and number two in the military application of lasers. Within 10 years the company was worth trillions...

Now look over in the next column:

Initially, Wallace wisely focused on what the Wilk's company had always done best, lasers, and not just guns, but laser distancers, scalpels and medical equipment, optics...

So we have a company "born early during the Golden Age of science, before the Great Cataclysm." It built laser equipment and got a military contract.
Very quickly, they became the #2 guys for "military application of lasers."
After the apocalypse, Wallace found some old factories and got the business going again, focusing on the stuff that Wilk's was best at, which includes "not just guns."

What part makes it look like they started making laser guns after the apocalypse?

Not sure if this has been pointed out or not (forgive me my brain is on standby mode lately) But the military does not have the very best guns. Any weapons they get have to be a combo of simple use+good damage+easy up keep+ good price....

There are guns out there that blow what the military uses away by leaps and bounds but its just not practical to have a solider with a 2 million dollar gun( Remember in batman why the Nomac survival suit never made it into production?).

Basically just cause your providing to the military does not mean your product is the very best

[Killer Cyborg]

I made an NPC one time that utilized was a Dinosaur Hunter (from Dino Swamp) with the right weapons he did some major dammage. He once took down an OLD style SAMAS while he was flying with a very well placed headshot, then a follow up on the exposed cranium. A mix between the CS Sniper skills, and the Dino Hunter I think works best. However when people think of sniper in today's society they usually think of this one shot, one kill, mythical movie/video game type sniper. Coming from the military- this is simply not the case. Snipers have only a very few applications in today's battle field especially with NVG, IR, and Thermal technology. Most players think of Video Game sniping, where they take maybe a full 3 extra seconds (as opposed to 3 extra hour or days) to get that perfect headshot and move on to the next brain cavity. That isn't a sniper, it's more attuned to the Designated Marksman Rifle role. A real sniper would wait for a specific target (a very high priority target), wait for him to go to bed, or get in a car or do something where he takes his armor off or leaves his vehicle etc and then take the shot. With Rifts being a team based game this solo/wait around stuff just isn't as cool as it seems in theory.

(And yes, I resurrected a years-old thread to give a thumbs-up. I only now noticed the post. )

[Blindscout]

I made an NPC one time that utilized was a Dinosaur Hunter (from Dino Swamp) with the right weapons he did some major dammage. He once took down an OLD style SAMAS while he was flying with a very well placed headshot, then a follow up on the exposed cranium. A mix between the CS Sniper skills, and the Dino Hunter I think works best. However when people think of sniper in today's society they usually think of this one shot, one kill, mythical movie/video game type sniper. Coming from the military- this is simply not the case. Snipers have only a very few applications in today's battle field especially with NVG, IR, and Thermal technology. Most players think of Video Game sniping, where they take maybe a full 3 extra seconds (as opposed to 3 extra hour or days) to get that perfect headshot and move on to the next brain cavity. That isn't a sniper, it's more attuned to the Designated Marksman Rifle role. A real sniper would wait for a specific target (a very high priority target), wait for him to go to bed, or get in a car or do something where he takes his armor off or leaves his vehicle etc and then take the shot. With Rifts being a team based game this solo/wait around stuff just isn't as cool as it seems in theory.

(And yes, I resurrected a years-old thread to give a thumbs-up. I only now noticed the post. )

I'm sure the powers that be will forgive your thread necromancy.....this time

[jaymz]

Lucky, try the Range Combat - Sniper in Rifter #11

[Colt47]

The tech for bullets to pierce M.D.C. armor is there though. It's mentioned in the weapon section of Rifts Under Seas, and is used by the New Navy. The tech is there, but as far as Rifts go's has there been a need ? The way I see Rifts Earth is the energy weapons and M.D.C. armor is not the norm for your average folk. And it makes more sense that conventional ammo would have been created before energy weapons would have come along. This is something that really bugs me about PC's. in Rifts. They get there Glitter Boy, and Samson Power armor, C-14 Fire Breather and all that but they neglect the S.D.C. weapons and W.P.'s . I also cant see that a destroyed world can come back from the brink and have small hick towns ware everyone gets around in wagons and cant read, yet they have a healthy functioning nuclear reactor providing power. So the Tech is there for sure. A G.M. just needs an operator or appropriate P.C. and let them have at it.

I agree with you on the Modern Weapon Proficiencies. Heck, my current character is a walking tank and it still has WP Shotgun. I also aim for weapons that have an SDC mode of fire, such as the Triax light assault laser rifle or the Juicer Assassin Rifle in the RUE. Actually, on the subject of that particular Juicer Assassin weapon, what WP would that gun take to use all the modes? I've assumed it just uses energy rifle for all three fire modes, even though technically it acts like a bolt action Rifle when using the 7.62mm bullets.

On a side note, it's probably one of my favorite sniping weapons in the game.

[Akashic Soldier]

I was lazy and only read the first post but I have a sniper in my game. Jack Ryder is a sniper character. So far it has been tough where spontaneous combats are concerned or if the other players give away his location by like... yelling at him.

But you shouldn't need to twink the rules at all. Highpowered sniper rifles do a lot of MDC and if someone does not know your location it means that your attacks would count as from ambush. (Automaticly going first and striking each round unless you roll under an Natural .

A high camouflage and prowl means a large bonus to your hide check (much easier to get than bonuses to your perception check) and if he is using a laser there is no sound at all so it doesn't give away his position. Snipers are deadly and you don't need to pretty them up if you just pay attention to the rules and give it a little thought. Plus... called shots (specifically headshots) are especially deadly (more so when you notice some sniper rifles do 1D6x10 MDC).

The thing to remember is a setting thing not a rules thing:
Snipers are assassins. Even in war they are opportunist killers. Being a sniper is boring and it sucks a lot of the time. You lay in a hole and stare down a scope and WAIT for your target to go to the bathroom or take off their helmet to wipe the sweat off their brow. Then you instantly kill them. Where as you could easily (within the rules) sit in a single location and pick off targets like in Halo or many of the other first person shooters that normally isn't a great way to be. Especially given how long it takes to set yourself up (compared to other combatants).

The sniper is a valuable part of your team but he isn't always going to be in his element. When he is not I suggest picking up the Sharpshooter W.P. (That is what Jack Ryder did). It means that even without the sniper rifle he is still a crackshot and means that if he has to resort to an energy rifle in close combat (Regular PC combat range and not 4000+ feet) he can do all sorts of tricky things like shooting off an enemies hand or blowing off an enemies cod piece. Sure those are both non-lethal examples of how a Sniper can put a combat to a quick (and entertaining end) but they are not the only ones. Not by far.