The Undead (PFRPG)

[Severus Snape]

So, I'm in the process of writing (and running on the storm watch forums) a campaign for PFRPG, and the undead hordes are going to be a large part of the campaign. Don't ask me why, but I enjoy having skeletons, zombies, vampires, and other undead beasts attacking and being attacked by PCs.

Anyhow, I'm going through the undead monsters (and they are truly scattered throughout most of the books), and there are a few things I don't like about them. Such as:

1. They have HP and SDC;
2. They continuously come back to life after being reduced to 0 HP/SDC;
3. They are supernatural creatures with supernatural PS;
4. With the exception of skeletons, they are all mostly intelligent;
5. They have no bonuses/vulnerabilities that would be unique to their stature (such as bladed weapons inflicting less damage to skeletons as they are nothing but bone and the blade could be considered to catch a lot of "air" when slicing through them).

There are more things that I don't like about them as a whole, but these are the ones that really get my bacon sizzling. So I've taken some serious liberties with the undead ickies that I've already got coming for the PCs (boy, I hope they don't read this thread!). They are:

1. The undead do not have HP. They aren't alive, and have no life essence. No life essence = no HP. They have SDC, but not HP.
2. Once destroyed, they are destroyed. They don't keep coming back (except in a few instances specifically designed to torment the PCs).
3. Most of them no longer have SNPS.
4. Most of them are now mindless and have next to 0 IQ/ME/MA.
5. I've started giving some of them vulnerabilities that match what they are. Skeletons only take 1/2 damage from bladed weapons, but take full damage from blunt weapons.

Again, these are the ones that in my mind really needed to be changed.

Has anybody else made changes to the undead in PFRPG or across the megaverse that they thought needed to be made?

[Jorel]

Makes a lot of sense.

[The Dark Elf]

So, I'm in the process of writing (and running on the storm watch forums) a campaign for PFRPG, and the undead hordes are going to be a large part of the campaign. Don't ask me why, but I enjoy having skeletons, zombies, vampires, and other undead beasts attacking and being attacked by PCs.

Anyhow, I'm going through the undead monsters (and they are truly scattered throughout most of the books), and there are a few things I don't like about them. Such as:

1. They have HP and SDC;
2. They continuously come back to life after being reduced to 0 HP/SDC;
3. They are supernatural creatures with supernatural PS;
4. With the exception of skeletons, they are all mostly intelligent;
5. They have no bonuses/vulnerabilities that would be unique to their stature (such as bladed weapons inflicting less damage to skeletons as they are nothing but bone and the blade could be considered to catch a lot of "air" when slicing through them).

There are more things that I don't like about them as a whole, but these are the ones that really get my bacon sizzling. So I've taken some serious liberties with the undead ickies that I've already got coming for the PCs (boy, I hope they don't read this thread!). They are:

1. The undead do not have HP. They aren't alive, and have no life essence. No life essence = no HP. They have SDC, but not HP.
2. Once destroyed, they are destroyed. They don't keep coming back (except in a few instances specifically designed to torment the PCs).
3. Most of them no longer have SNPS.
4. Most of them are now mindless and have next to 0 IQ/ME/MA.
5. I've started giving some of them vulnerabilities that match what they are. Skeletons only take 1/2 damage from bladed weapons, but take full damage from blunt weapons.

Again, these are the ones that in my mind really needed to be changed.

Has anybody else made changes to the undead in PFRPG or across the megaverse that they thought needed to be made?

No. I never thought they needed to be made.

#1. HP, SDC whatever, it all comes off the same so Im not bothered. However they might not be 2alive" but they arent dead either. they are undead not walking dead/animated dead. Vampires get both.
#2. They are undead, not dead so again, could be changed but it's never bothered me.
#3. I tend to play as is.
#4. I don't feel anything wrong with the undead having intelligence. Have your vampires got 0 IQ? Animated dead is a different story.
#5. I see where you're coming from. With bone fiends they do have a slightly higher A.R. I think they are tough enough already but you've definitely a point.

[Severus Snape]

Yeah, I need to clarify the whole intelligence thing. Some of the undead are going to be intelligent - vampires, specters, vortan the undying (as an example). So their intelligence is going to stay as is. I'm talking about the lesser variations - skeletons, zombies, etc.

The reason I see the need to eliminate the HP is that because they no longer have a life essence, they don't have HP. Granted, they aren't truly alive and they aren't truly dead. But the undead are no longer truly alive, and as such wouldn't have HP.

[dragonfett]

What about piercing damage to a skeleton? Would you say that a skeleton takes 1/2 damage, or 1/4 damage, which I think is more realistic for the type of damage and the physical structure, or at least a much higher natural AR. I would like to hear more about your changes.

[Severus Snape]

I kinda lumped piercing and slashing into the bladed weapons category (and kudos to you for the 2E reference!), so piercing would be 1/2 damage. Here is a listing of all changes I've made to various denizens of the recently un-deceased:

Zombies

• Mindless (no IQ, ME, or MA)
• Can be harmed by normal, non-magical weapons
• No HP. Once reduced to 0 SDC they are destroyed
• Once killed, they are destroyed permanently
• AR reduced to 4 (I mean, why are they harder to hit than anybody else not wearing armor?)

Skeletons

• Mindless (no IQ, ME, or MA)
• Can be harmed by normal, non-magical weapons
• No HP. Once reduced to 0 SDC they are destroyed
• Once killed, they are destroyed permanently
• AR reduced to 4
• Slashing/Piercing weapons do 1/2 damage
• Are not considered to be animated and controlled by a necromancer, so they can wander around much like zombies

Bone Fiends
Not entirely dissimilar to skeletons, with the following changes:

• Slashing/Piercing Weapons do no damage
• Once they are reduced to 0 SDC they stop regenerating
• They have an AR of 8 (or of whatever armor they are wearing)
• They aren't completely mindless

Now, I don't want to give too much away for fear that players end up reading this thread. But there is a haunting entity that I've modified slightly, as well as some other, nastier undead beasties for the players to thwack their way through.

[JuliusCreed]

There are more things that I don't like about them as a whole, but these are the ones that really get my bacon sizzling. So I've taken some serious liberties with the undead ickies that I've already got coming for the PCs (boy, I hope they don't read this thread!). They are:

1. The undead do not have HP. They aren't alive, and have no life essence. No life essence = no HP. They have SDC, but not HP.

Fair enough against the animated dead (skeletons, zombies) but true undead should keep HP (vampires, mummies)

2. Once destroyed, they are destroyed. They don't keep coming back (except in a few instances specifically designed to torment the PCs).

I like keeping this. Animated dead like skeletons are generally a small thorn in the side that are easilly taken care of with a couple really good shots. They only really start to get dangerous when they outnumber your party by about 5 to 1 or more. Then you can have a real problem, especially when they start putting themselves back together to keep coming at you. It forces a player to get really destructive to take them down. Fire helps a lot.

3. Most of them no longer have SNPS.

I can see doing this for the lesser types, but not the big guys. Vampires were listed as demons in PFRPG 1st ed for a reason.

4. Most of them are now mindless and have next to 0 IQ/ME/MA.

For skeletons and zombies there has to be at least a rudimentary IQ in order for them to be able to follow commands in the first place. IQ 3 or 4 isn't exactly mindless, but it's far from being smart enough to do more than attack and kill.

5. I've started giving some of them vulnerabilities that match what they are. Skeletons only take 1/2 damage from bladed weapons, but take full damage from blunt weapons.

Fair enough. What about arrows or crossbow bolts? Against a zombie I could see normal damage, but have you ever tried shooting a spine with an arrow at any kind of range? Maybe make shots against skeletons with bows and crossbows require called shots to be able to hit, thus taking 2 attacks to be able to damage one.

[Cinos]

As a sweeping statement, I've made these changes;
H.P is removed from Undead characters. They become immune to Direct to HP Attacks (aka Death Damage), do not suffer Stamina Loss or Gain Wounds.

Separately, undead can have an ability common among them called Mindless, removing their M.E score completely, preventing saves and interactions with that score (in this case Psionic attacks, insanity, horror and the like). I.Q remains, as they need at least basic intellect to preform combat tasks (it's often a 1 or 2 at best), and a 1 in MA (For my games, things without MA cannot socially interact at all, things like a Rock that you can't really be intimidated by or grow to like). Intelligent undead (Liches, Mummy, etc) do not have this (But often have high saves against those things).

As a whole, most undead have a 50%+ resistance to Physical and Cold Damage, and around two to three times expected S.D.C of a normal person (to show the whole "Fights till ripped apart" aspect), but they still obey normal internal working laws, such as a Zombie needing an Achillies heel to walk. Animated undead, such as most skeletons, do not suffer from this.

Vampires are their own ballpark in this regard, aside from being classified as undead.

[Severus Snape]

Again, the higher forms of undead do not follow the same rules that I've already outlined. This includes Vampires, specters, mummies, etc.

[ZorValachan]

Again, the higher forms of undead do not follow the same rules that I've already outlined. This includes Vampires, specters, mummies, etc.

Bolded is mine, for this reason; Other posters wrote it 'naturally', but did not call attention to it. In Palladium Books games, skeletons, zombies, etc. that you classify as 'undead' are specifically stated to NOT be undead. They are animated dead. Undead are the things with souls and minds, but without life. Vampires, Mummies, etc. Zombies/skeletons/etc. are just dead things that move magically, thus animated dead. PB keeps these classifications separate.

I agree, undead should have SDC and not HP. HP are supposed to be the 'life' of a creature. SDC is physical structure. Undead have no life left, only a body. It is almost, but not exactly the same. As stated above, things that would bypass SDC and affect HP directly, would not hurt undead/animated dead, as Cinos stated

[dragonfett]

I think that the reason so many people playing Palladium Games get that confused (myself included) is because in other, more popular games (read: D&D), skeletons, zombies, etc. (the lower forms of undead/animated dead) are considered undead, just like the higher forms of undead (vampires, wraiths, liches, etc.).

[Severus Snape]

I think that the reason so many people playing Palladium Games get that confused (myself included) is because in other, more popular games (read: D&D), skeletons, zombies, etc. (the lower forms of undead/animated dead) are considered undead, just like the higher forms of undead (vampires, wraiths, liches, etc.).

Agreed. It also confuses players of PB games when even PB classifies zombies as not undead in PFRPG, but as undead in DR.

[The Beast]

I think that the reason so many people playing Palladium Games get that confused (myself included) is because in other, more popular games (read: D&D), skeletons, zombies, etc. (the lower forms of undead/animated dead) are considered undead, just like the higher forms of undead (vampires, wraiths, liches, etc.).

Agreed. It also confuses players of PB games when even PB classifies zombies as not undead in PFRPG, but as undead in DR.

That's because DR zombies are different from the rest of Palladium's zombies.

[The Beast]

Since they've been brought up, I have been using DR zombies as a basis for some of my PFRPG zombie encounters for a while, now. They typically arise in areas where necromancers practice their magic a great deal, and the air stinks of death magic so strongly that even the densest of warriors feels ill-at-ease in those areas... The area around Kaash is a common place to find these creatures roaming the wilderness, feeding on ambient PPE and travelers who happen by.

Having said that, the undead (both the "lower" classifications such as animated dead and full-blown zombies and such as well as the "higher" undead such as vampires and the slew that're listed in Land of the Damned) are supposed to be horrific and frightening in the world of Palladium. They are supposed to be frightening to the characters (even if they're just ho-hum to us as players), difficult to deal with, and defeating even just a small group of basic zombies (DR zombies, animated dead, zombies created by the level 12 wizard spell, whatever) is supposed to earn major bragging rights at the next tavern the adventurers cross.

For this reason, when I'm running the "undead", they have both SDC and HP, as in the books...though they are immune to spells which affect HP directly, drain life, etc. SDC is depleted appropriately and has the visual effect that no damage is being done--the corpse (or whatever) is being worn down, but the characters have the sickening visual that their attacks aren't affecting the creature. The HP (which isn't HP in a traditional sense, but rather more like SDC, itself) is when the characters finally see results in the damage they're doing...which can be misleading, depending on the kind of creature they're facing. ("Good it's dead... Now we can finally move on and--OH CRAP! IT'S MOVING AGAIN!!! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!!!!111ZOMG")

For animated dead that have SDC but no HP, I treat the first 3/4 of their damage capacity as SDC above, and only the last 1/4 as HP.

This leaves me open to force the players into HF rolls in the middle of combat, as the players begin to wonder if these things will ever just stay dead...and gives both the players and the characters a satisfying feeling of triumph when they finally succeed.

Doesn't sound too bad...

[Severus Snape]

KonThaak: I agree with the horror factor rolls, but I make the players roll HF at the beginning of combat to even see if they can stomach handling them. Although I may start using an HF roll sometime in the middle to see if the characters can stomach continuing....hmm...[insert evil GM thoughts here]

[cornholioprime]

Yeah, I need to clarify the whole intelligence thing. Some of the undead are going to be intelligent - vampires, specters, vortan the undying (as an example). So their intelligence is going to stay as is. I'm talking about the lesser variations - skeletons, zombies, etc.

The reason I see the need to eliminate the HP is that because they no longer have a life essence, they don't have HP. Granted, they aren't truly alive and they aren't truly dead. But the undead are no longer truly alive, and as such wouldn't have HP.

Hit Points in the Palladium Gaming System isn't based on the living or dead status of the target (it just has to someone or something that can be fought at some point).

Hit Points is an In-Game Construct designed to facilitate gameplay.

Eliminate Hit Points and house-rule such a decision as you see fit but, again, there's nothing canonical to fit your explanation/thesis as to why they are there.

[cornholioprime]

Since they've been brought up, I have been using DR zombies as a basis for some of my PFRPG zombie encounters for a while, now. They typically arise in areas where necromancers practice their magic a great deal, and the air stinks of death magic so strongly that even the densest of warriors feels ill-at-ease in those areas... The area around Kaash is a common place to find these creatures roaming the wilderness, feeding on ambient PPE and travelers who happen by.

Having said that, the undead (both the "lower" classifications such as animated dead and full-blown zombies and such as well as the "higher" undead such as vampires and the slew that're listed in Land of the Damned) are supposed to be horrific and frightening in the world of Palladium. They are supposed to be frightening to the characters (even if they're just ho-hum to us as players), difficult to deal with, and defeating even just a small group of basic zombies (DR zombies, animated dead, zombies created by the level 12 wizard spell, whatever) is supposed to earn major bragging rights at the next tavern the adventurers cross.

For this reason, when I'm running the "undead", they have both SDC and HP, as in the books...though they are immune to spells which affect HP directly, drain life, etc. SDC is depleted appropriately and has the visual effect that no damage is being done--the corpse (or whatever) is being worn down, but the characters have the sickening visual that their attacks aren't affecting the creature. The HP (which isn't HP in a traditional sense, but rather more like SDC, itself) is when the characters finally see results in the damage they're doing...which can be misleading, depending on the kind of creature they're facing. ("Good it's dead... Now we can finally move on and--OH CRAP! IT'S MOVING AGAIN!!! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!!!!111ZOMG")

For animated dead that have SDC but no HP, I treat the first 3/4 of their damage capacity as SDC above, and only the last 1/4 as HP.

This leaves me open to force the players into HF rolls in the middle of combat, as the players begin to wonder if these things will ever just stay dead...and gives both the players and the characters a satisfying feeling of triumph when they finally succeed.

WELL said, KonThaak of the.....um....er..........KonThaakian Tribe of KonThaakia.